#0438 - Why the Best Leaders Never Planned to Be Leaders with Jessie Hathcock

Speaker A: Electric assets. Welcome to Deep Leadership. The show built on one simple and powerful truth. Leadership is a people business. If you're ready to become a better boss and a stronger leader, you're in the right place. Let's dive in. Today I'm joined by Jesse Hapcock. Purpose and impact are woven into Jesse DNA. For over 20 years, she has led in education, nonprofits, and the business community, always with a heart for helping people reach their innate potential. As president of the loading dock and founder of Scale Simple, Jesse guides leaders and organizations to align purpose with strategy, unlocking growth that's both conscious and sustainable. Her work centers on stewardship, belonging, and ushering in a new reality where people and businesses come fully alive. Jessie is based here in Raleigh, North Carolina, and I'm excited to have her on the show so that we can all learn from her unique leadership journey. So, Jesse, welcome to the show.

Speaker B: Thanks so much for having me.

Speaker A: Well, it's good to have you on the show. I'm so glad that we could do this. Uh, and I should tell our audience that, uh, I met Jesse, uh, while doing research into resilient leadership, and I loved her story so much that I wanted to have her on the show to so I could share it with all of you. So let's set the stage real quickly. So tell us about the loading dock and scalesimple.

Speaker B: Absolutely. So the loading dock is a three location, co working and co warehousing community here in Raleigh and Wake County. And um, I've been with the company about six and a half years. Um, started off as community coordinator, just sort of an assistant type position, and now I'm president. Um, came in at a very, uh, interesting, pivotal time in the organization and have ridden the waves, um, to where we are now. So that has been quite the journey. And then scale, um, simple really came out of that journey. I, uh, did not have any business experience prior to this role, worked in education and nonprofits, and um, so have really learned as I've gone. Um, it's been a whirlwind, uh, and I made a ton of mistakes. And so Scale simple is sort of this conglomeration of tools and resources and strategy and just things that I really wish I had when I was scaling the loading dock. Um, but have sort of, you know, built tools, found tools, worked on best practices, found best practices, and um, so, you know, if there's any small business looking to grow or scale, I got a nice toolkit to help make that possible.

Speaker A: I love it. I love it. And what I love about the journey and for those of you who didn't catch it, she started at the loading dock as a coordinator, community coordinator, and now she's the president. And she did that during, uh, basically the pandemic during COVID which was a very unique time, especially in a co working space where this is a people. Um, we have people coming into a co working space. So you have all the challenges of people, you've got all the challenges of growing a startup business, and you have all the challenges of a Covid, our first pandemic in a long time. So you had massive amounts of challenges, uh, uh, that you had to deal with. So take us back to the moment where you were trying to thrust into a leadership role at the loading dock. What happened and what was going through your mind when you finally realized that you were the leader of this organization?

Speaker B: Yeah, um, it was quite a journey. And I will just piggyback on what you said about just the timing of everything of this journey. Um, on top of everything professionally and just in the world that was happening, I also experienced a very traumatic pregnancy. I lost. Lost my dad, I lost my aunt. Marriage, um, heart. I mean, there was just so much going on at the time. So, um, it was definitely a wild time. But, you know, speaking of resilient leadership, it was, it was a master class in that. So I'm, you know, grateful to be on the other side of it now. But, um. Oh, gosh. And with, uh, tell me your question one more time.

Speaker A: So just in terms of like, you know, um, what was it like when you sort of realized that, like, the leadership of this, this startup organization is falling onto your shoulders more and more?

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, so I came in and right when I had joined a loading dock, we had signed two small or two leases for small locations. Um, there wasn't a ton of infrastructure in place to support that growth. Like, literally, we had signed a lease, but didn't even have furniture for one of the locations. So there was a lot going on. And then, um, we were also working on signing two very large leases for our current locations. Um, so there was, There was a lot of moving parts. Um, I quickly realized there wasn't again, not a ton of infrastructure to support that level of growth. And I quickly started thinking like, okay, if we are going to sustain this thing, we need to work on standard operating procedures. We got to work on mission vision, values. We got to work on just like some framework as, like, who we are, how do we operate, where are we going? Um, when all this was happening, our founder, Philip Freeman, who you know, um, was also scaling Murphy's Naturals, which is an all natural mosquito repellent company. And that's how the loading dock was created. He needed flexible workspace to grow his business. Hence the loading dock. Um, first co warehousing company in the world that we know of. And um, and so with that, um, he didn't have a ton of bandwidth or time or brain space to really think about the loading dock. I came in, I've always been a mover and a shaker, saw the need and was like, all right, let's get to work, you know. And so, um, just sort of started chunking away at it. Um, we also at one point quickly hired a director of business development and also um, someone who had been in like startup world, strategy world. Um, Philip had a big dream of having 30 locations by 2030. Thankfully that has slowed down. Um, so we were trying to rapidly scale a very uh, um, infantile business and had massive growth trajectory. So it was sort of like drinking out of a fire hose. Like, how are we going to do all this? Um, long story short, quickly realized that's not a great. Like, that was just too fast of growth for coworking. Um, so we had to make structural changes for the company. Those two positions were eliminated. Again, Philip was so busy with Murphy's Naturals. And so at that point it really was like, all right, you're the person. And I had many conversations with Philip where I was like, you absolutely need to hire someone else for this. Like, what are you doing? Like, I don't, I don't have any business experience. I don't know what I'm doing. Like I'm doing this. How does it go? And he was so patient with me and believed in me way more than I believed in myself. And um, I'm so glad he wasn't just like, all right, well see you later. You know, he, yeah, he, he just sort of let me have the audience.

Speaker A: Tell the audience what you were doing before you read the loading Dock. I think it's very interesting too.

Speaker B: Yeah, so I taught middle school, um, for, for five years at two low income middle schools. You know, I had 127th graders at one point. And so, you know, if you can handle 120 seventh graders, you can kind of do anything. Um, ah, so that was my first career. Um, second was I started working in the non profit world and I was the business relations manager for a non profit that had a job training curriculum. So they needed companies to hire people who had been chronically unemployed, whether that be through incarceration or just, you know, sometimes disability or whatever it might be, we were kind of helping them build those confidence and soft skills to get into the workplace. So my job was to go find all these businesses to hire about 200 graduates coming out of our program in Wake County. What I learned from that is like, oh, business can actually be a force for good. Like, these people aren't just money hungry. They actually really want to make an impact in their community. And the best way for them to do that is through hiring people. Like, my mind was kind of blown. You know, I had always had such a passion for purpose and meaning and thought the only way I could get that was through service of a nonprofit or, you know, an educator or whatever it might be. Um, and then I saw these business people, like, really care m and want to use their business for good, and I was like, that is so compelling. Um, and so whenever I'd made the switch to move into the business world, I knew I wanted to work for a business that. That cared and made an impact on the community and was very purpose driven. Um, and so found the loading dock was found me.

Speaker A: Yeah. And you work for such a great leader who. Who has that in his mindset too, which is great. Yeah, well, he's. Yeah, Philip is an exceptional leader. He's been on the show before, too. So, uh. So, uh, I don't know what the episode was, but it was a long time ago. So during the pandemic where Philip was on the show. So. So when we talked, when I was interviewing, during the. During my stuff that we were doing for my doctorate, the term we came up with was reluctant leadership. That's what we sort of got a sense of, is that you sort of were thrust into a role that you didn't necessarily plan on being in. Um, so, like, a lot of people that are listening in, they might have. They might find themselves in the same kind of situation where they don't necessarily didn't start off to want to be the leader, but they sort of stepped up when things got tough and said, you know, I'll take ownership, and. And suddenly they find themselves in leadership roles. Um, you know, can you give some advice to people that end up in a situation that like. Like that? And. And why do you think some of the best leaders don't set out to lead in the first place?

Speaker B: That's a great question. Why does some leaders not set out to lead? Um, my. My story is interesting, and I can't even remember if I. If I shared this when we were Talking. But um, I, I have always been a leader, like looking back, um, you know, and I got a full ride to NC State and I did that because I was student council president and I was leading this community service group and I was doing all. And I was like leading the pep rallies from the, you know, bottom of the gymnasium. All the things. Like I have always been a leader and then um, frankly, and hopefully this isn't controversial but I went to a very like conservative church and um, when I went to college and those were very, very formative years and they said multiple times like from the pulpit like women essentially should not leave, like they should be at home. And that's what I saw. And I was just, I had this really um, sort of identity crisis because I'm like well my faith is really, really important to me and I feel like I'm um. Like I knew I was going to be a principal, like that was my path. Like I knew that I was going to lead an organization. Um, but then what I, coming out of that place I was just like oh well maybe, maybe I shouldn't lead. Like maybe that's not actually a part of my path. And so the last year or so has really been kind of this. As I really set out to find my vocation and like my real purpose in life. Huge discernment process. Um, I have come to the conclusion that yes I am, I am a leader and um, you know I'm called to that and it's a huge stewardship thing for me. Like it's, it's I think leaders. I think if you're, if you set out to be a leader because you want the title or the compensation or whatever, like that comes from a place of ego, you know, like you want all those shiny things. But if you, if you really look at the call of a leader, it is to serve and it is to shepherd, it is to grow, it's to create impact. Um, you're kind of this catalyst for others growth and that is like a very um, humbling place to be of. Like wow. I, I have been entrusted to care for these people and, and, and shepherd their well being and all these things. And um. So yeah, I guess if you, you know, if you're kind of setting out like I'm the leader, it's like is that coming from a place of ego or is that coming from a place of like tr. You understand the role of what a leader is.

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Speaker A: Electric acid. Yeah. I often say that they, the best leaders become a leader to make a difference and sort of the weaker leaders do it to make money.

Speaker B: Right? Exactly.

Speaker A: And so I think that I always say, if you want to be a leader, ask yourself, why. Why do you want to make a. Why do you want to be a leader? Well, if you say, I want to make a difference and I think I can, that's different. That's saying, follow me. That's the standing up saying, I may not have all the skills, but I have this. I, uh, really deeply believe in this organization. So follow me and we'll go places, right? Figure it out versus the person that's, uh, trying to have lunch with the boss and try to dress like the boss and play golf with the boss or whatever, just to get into that role. That's a different kind of person, isn't it?

Speaker B: Absolutely. Very different.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Very interesting. So, um, you know, as you, as you mentioned, you know, you step in the role, you're sort of learning. Uh, I always say, learn while you burn. It was one of those left. Everything was thrown at you at one time. Right. And, um, but over time, I think when we discussed it like your personal mission, vision and values became really important to you and they started shaping how you led, um, especially when things were kind of crazy. Um, can you tell us a little bit about, like, personal mission and vision and values, why these are essential to leadership?

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm so passionate about this topic because I think, you know, leadership is not for, uh, the faint of heart. And if you don't have a really strong North Star as to, like, why am I doing this? It can feel you can burn out quickly, but when you have that greater sense of purpose, that's the thing that kind of, for me at least, keeps me going. Um, so I, When I was a teacher, I worked at a Stephen Covey school. So that was our magnet program in Wake county public Schools. And, um, so our focus was around the seven Habits of highly effective people. And I've always again been interested in leadership, had a passion for leadership, but I learned so much working at that school and I, you know, the seven habits are based off of 20 years of research of like, what do the most successful people have in common? It's these seven habits. And so I'm like, well if that's been researched so much, like I just need to follow the seven habits and I'll hopefully be highly, highly effective. Um, but one of the activities we did was um, on creating your personal mission statement. And so mine is helping people reach their God given potential. Um, which, which honestly, for the last year, for the last year or two, when I was really wrestling with my vacation and really figuring out like, I just don't know if this is it for me, there was a point where I was like, I don't want, because I was so burnt out, you know, I was like, I don't want to help everybody else. I just want to like go be a masseuse and not talk to anybody for the rest of my life. Like literally I was, I was like so close. Um, but you know, the more again the more I sat with this, this calling and the stewardship of like, of leadership and growing people, I was like, no, this is really cool. The level of impact you can have and particularly being in a co working space. I'm like so passionate about it now because we have 1300 members and we have 450 companies.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And like we, we did a um, a member engagement survey last fall and um, 82.5% of people say that the loading dock has improved their well being. And I'm like, oh my gosh, like this is amazing. Like eight, like that means over a thousand people's well being has improved by being at the loading dock. And those thousand people most likely have three to five relationships that they are closely intertwined with, whether that be business or personal. And hopefully those relationships have improved because that person's wellbeing has improved. You know, you just think about like the compounding impact of leadership, but particularly leadership within coworking because it just touches so many people, industries, all of that.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's an amazing place. For those that are not here locally, I am. So I get a chance to go into the loading dock and we have one here in Wake Forest, which is my hometown. And I was there for opening day and I saw what the potential could be, uh, which was exciting. Um, but now going back today and seeing what it has become, it is just a high energy Place, as you mentioned, 450 businesses in the different locations. Uh, and what, 1300 people? Is that what you said? Yeah, 1300 members. Um, what an amazing opportunity, uh, to help, I mean, you're basically helping companies, you know, or creating a place for companies to be able to launch themselves and get into the world and uh, start their businesses. I started my business in a co working space way, uh, back, you know, 10 years ago. So I know what that's like. You have nothing. I just needed a, I needed a cubicle and a phone and an Internet connection at the time. And believe me, my coworking space was nothing like the loading dock. I would have killed for the loading dock. We, we had a, we had a cubicle in an old, uh, I think with an old bank. Uh, it was terrible. But, um, yeah, so I think the energy there. And so like you said, the fact that you can impact so many lives through business is amazing. And one of the things I was going to say is, as I've studied leadership over the years, I didn't know of a term called transformational leadership. And when I learned about it, I said, well, that's probably more like what I am then. Transformational leadership says that you help people reach their fullest potential in pursuit of helping your business reach its fullest potential. So when I think about that, it sounds like you have a transformational leadership sort of approach, which is you're trying, your mission is to help people reach their, uh, God given potential, what they've been put on earth to do.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's, it's a, it's a gift to be a part of it and get to see. And we had um, one of our members who had just started, or she was like one of the first members at Wake Forest as well. Um, she was just getting her company started. She was going through a divorce. I mean, it was just like a real. It was during COVID It was a really hard time in her life. Um, she came back last week or the week before and she has three locations now. She runs like an adult daycare center for aging adults. And she is crushing it. She's like, personally, professionally, just was glowing. But what was so cool is she was like, I am restarting my membership because I love the energy of this place. I love being around, you know, the different people here and. But to hear a story like that and see her success like that was one story. But those things happen weekly, daily, you know, it's amazing.

Speaker A: I love that. So one of the things you do is you Also help, uh, organizations sort of align purpose, uh, and strat with their strategy. Um, now where do you see, you know, what happens when you get this right and what happens when you get this wrong? I guess I was thinking, yeah, one

Speaker B: of the things that has compelled me and created this love of business is because when I worked in education, again, I'm all about impact. And when I worked in education, I know that I had an impact on my students. But from a systemic level, the uh, ship is so large. Like for, for there to be systemic change within the educational system is like very hard because again, it's just, it's too big and you can't pivot and have the agility to like respond in the moment. It would take years to get, you know, to have that level of response. Um, and then when I worked in non profits, I was like, this is really cool. It's very impactful. But like funding is such a struggle.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, and there's so many non profits nowadays, like the competition for the funding even is it. And um, it's challenging. It's a challenging industry to be in. And then I thought of business and I'm like, okay, particularly small business. I'm like, they're agile.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: They uh, can pivot quickly. They have money to like make a difference and invest in the communities. Um, I mean you spend most of your life at your job, right. So like if you can be a great employer, a great place to work, that's going to improve other people's well being. So you get just kind of compounded of like, wow, business really is this powerful vehicle for impact and change. We are a B corp at the Loading Doc. I took the company through the B corp certification and we recently just got recertified. And for anybody that doesn't know, it's a very, very rigorous process. But B Corps have a triple bottom line. So instead of just pursuing profit, you're, you're um, pursuing people, planet and profit. So any business decision you're making, you're considering, how does this impact our people? How does this impact the community? How does this impact our consumers or our members or our clients? How does this impact, um, our suppliers and our vendors that we work with? And then um, you're also thinking about like a sustainability lens. So every purchase you're making, like, do I go local or do I go big box? Right. Do I get the cheaper styrofoam cups that it will never disintegrate in a landfill or do I get, do I pay a little bit more to Be socially responsible for a compostable cup. Right. And so, like, as a conscious leader, you're thinking through all of these different pieces. Um, yeah, and it's, it's, it's challenging to do that, but it's also fulfilling and neat to have the opportunity to.

Speaker A: Well, I mean, I think one of the things that speaks volumes to that, so people listening in might say, well, B Corporation, that's a lot of work. You know, I mean, uh, it'd be easier just to use a Styrofoam, right? It's cheaper. I'm a startup company. I don't have any money, you know, and so. But one of the things that, you know, you and I talked about when we talked about, um, what happened during the pandemic with, with the coworking space, is that you grew people. And even when they couldn't come into the facility because of, you know, trying to social distance, they were still paying their membership fees because they believed they were part of a community. And I think that that's something special. In other words, there was a feeling, um, and I'm sort of, I'm advertising for your company now, but there was a feeling in the loading dock, and I'm speaking for some words that you said and others as I've interviewed, is that there was a feeling of community. And they felt like that you have always taken care of them and they wanted to take care of you during these tough times. And so you actually were successful during the pandemic. You grew a startup company that grew up during the pandemic in a role where there had to be people in a location, and yet you still grew. And I think that's something to be said about the. Someone might say, well, the B Corporation is, ah, that's a lot of work. And why should I care about suppliers? Why should I care about people, the environment? But it actually helped you, I think, build community. And people felt they were part of something and they wanted to support it even through tough times, right?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And I really attribute that, Ah, of course, um, Philip and Carter, the guy that started the loading dock community, was always a huge heartbeat of what we have done. Um, Clark Reinhart was the director of Community, so he's who hired me. And he did such an incredible job. I mean, he knew every single person's name. He made every single person laugh. He knew everything, you know, he knew everything about their kids and their family and, like, their business. And he was just so intentional with our members. Um, so, yeah, you know, we had just launched two campuses In September, that's when I came on and then March, everything shut down. But it's like that one main location that we had really sustained the other two. And it was because the level of community that was there. Um, one of our taglines that the loading dock is do well, do good, better together. And Philip's whole philosophy is like, you can, you can and should do well. Go make a lot of money, go crush it in your business and then go do good with that. M. Right, like go, go invest that back into your people. Go invest that back into a local economy. Go invest that back into the non profits that you care about. Like take that profit and not just for your, you know, your, your next jet or whatever. Like use that for investing. Investing and creating impact for the things that you care about. And he's just such a great representation of that. So even when, you know, we had no money, we're not profitable, we're losing money. You know, like we still donated 2% of our revenue to non profits primarily through, in kind because that's what we had to give. We had space and so we're like, yeah, come use it. But to be able to be that generous even when we were not in a profitable place, I think set us up for the success that we're having now where we're 99% full, we're having record breaking months. So many people know about the loading dock at this point. But it was that, that period of like faithfulness and generosity even when things were very tenuous as a company, uh, you see that kind of the fruit of it now, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in other words, doing the, doing, doing the work in the tough times, um, you know, is paid off. And it sounds like, yeah, it's paid off. I mean, you were doing it as a startup company. That's the sort of thing that's remarkable about it. It's like some people say, well, once I become profitable, I'll do X, Y and Z or once.

Speaker B: Not going to.

Speaker A: Yeah, you're not going to. Right. So you got to do it when you're, when you're, you know, when it's hard. Right. And it's easy to do things when it's easy. It's, uh, it's hard when it's hard. But I think what you're saying is it's paid off in dividends for the company.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And so we actually did a series called A Case for Good where we partnered with a few different organizations last year to really teach businesses there is like literal roi. By doing good, you're going to attract better talent. Your employees are going to be happier. Um, uh, consumers are like 80 something percent more likely to choose your company over another company when they know that you're giving back and making an impact. I mean, like, the numbers are remarkable and this is a fairly researched thing. Like we're not just saying, oh, go do good for, do good, say you can do good and also do really well as a company. You're actually going to outperform your competition because you have that sense of purpose. The consumers love that, your employees love that, and ultimately the good is going to compound and come back to you too. It's pretty cool.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's really cool. Um, I want to ask you a question because. And it's. I didn't ask, I didn't tell you I was going to ask this question. So I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit. One of the things I've noticed is I talked to the leaders in your company and also in Murphy's Natural is that you guys aren't professional managers. You're not the people you would think of that would be that you would hire in a startup company. You all come from really unique backgrounds, but yet you all share the same passion and the same, um, you know, uh, you're all driven in the same way towards doing good and being good stewards and taking care of the people around you. Uh, how do you hire? Like when you're hiring at the loading dock now, what do you look for? Do you look for skills or are you looking for the right, uh, attitude or personality? I'm curious to, how do you keep that going, uh, as you bring in brand new people from off the streets?

Speaker B: Yeah, um, honestly, I. Hiring has been such a huge journey for me personally as the leader because coming from a low income school, I was like, I just see the potential in people, right? So I would hire and be like, oh, these people have great potential. But they were not, yeah, what we needed for a growing kid, you know, so we've, we've actually gone through, uh, a lot of teammates and changes and all those things. It was, it was fairly tumultuous for a while because I just didn't really know how to hire well. But now at this point, it is so much about personality and it's so much about, um, willingness and grit and problem solving. You have to have such a high emotional intelligence to be in coworking because again, you're dealing. Every community manager has, you know, close to 500 people at their campus, all those 500 people have their own baggage and industries and struggles and all the things. And so our managers are constantly reading the room, responding, reading the nuance, reading through the lines, all the things. Um, it's a really unique uh, role and so yeah, I mean we continue to learn like the, the type of profile that will be successful in our space. But I am um, I'm more and more and more confident in hiring for values fit.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I love that. And I know, you know, uh, I teach, when I'm teaching college courses, we look at, you know, case studies of Apple and Nike and they were they both in their evolution as companies, they went to hire professional managers at one point and they realized that they suck. Like professional managers kind of stink and they needed to hire people that had the passion towards their products and the things that they were trying to do in the world and that's when they found their best employees. It wasn't the professional managers, if you will, it was the people that had the passion towards the products and had the passion towards the culture they were trying to create. Those were the people that helped bring their business to the next level. So it sounds like loading dock has found that as well. It's not the professional marketing person or the professional community, uh, you know, coordinator or someone that has, you know, decades of running co working spaces. It's, it's the teacher. It's the, I mean that's what I've, I've seen a lot of teachers. I've seen. You're just very interesting group of people that are part of this very successful organization. So they are not the people, they are not MBAs. I don't see a lot of MBAs.

Speaker B: No, they're not, uh, but, but incredible humans, you know, exactly talented and all the things.

Speaker A: So I love that, I love that. Well, this has been a fantastic discussion. I love your story and I'm so glad you're able to share it with our audience. Um, what final message would you like to leave with our listeners?

Speaker B: It's a good question. Um, I think going back to your question around mission, vision and values, I think as a leader that's one of our primary jobs is to cast vision is to create culture. Um, one of my favorite analogies is like as a leader you are not taking the temperature, you are setting the temperature and without a really clear mission, vision and value, it's hard to set the temperature and culture that you need. And so I think organizationally that's a non negotiable. You need to have that clear so you can attract the right people that's going to repel the wrong people. Like there's going to be synergy there. If you're hiring for values, um, because you're already seeing the world through a similar lens. Um, and, and then personally I also think you need to have your own set of mission, vision and values because as a leader you're constantly making decisions, weighing options and your decisions impact other people. And so you need to have a really clear sense of who you are as a person and where you're headed and all those things. Because again it can be a slippery slope and then that impacts so many people. So like just kind of doing the inner work, um, to be the fullness of yourself so then you can then go shepherd and grow and nurture the fullness of others.

Speaker A: I love that. Yeah. Because I think if you're not centered, if you don't have a, you know, a goal and a mission and you're very clear on your values, when the storms come, you get blown away. You know, when the, when the temptations come, you get blown away. Right. So there's the great leaders or they've thought through what, what's important to them. And so when these things happen they stay strong and steady and they're focus on, they're focused on the mission. So such great advice. I, I love that, I love that. So um, Jesse, how can people find out more about you and these businesses that you had?

Speaker B: Yeah, so, um, theloadingdoc.com is um, our, our company business. We, or our company website. We'd love for you to explore that. We're also very active on LinkedIn. Um, feel free to connect with me there. And then um, for the scale simple side of things, I keep it truly very simple because I have a very full plate being a mom and um, and running the loading dock. But um, it's just scale-simple.com if anybody wants to explore more about that as well.

Speaker A: Okay. We're going to put the links in the show notes and I can't m, uh, not let you plug Murphy's Natural too because uh, maybe if you're not local you may not get to the loading dock but if you, anywhere, uh, you are in the country you can get uh, Murphy's Natural, which is what you could describe the company or describe

Speaker B: the products that yeah, they are amazing and they actually work. So it's all natural mosquito repellent. It's primarily lemon and eucalyptus oil he uses is very high quality, uh, essential oils and it works so well, so my favorite personally are the incense sticks. So, um, I light one because I, you know, in North Carolina there's a million mosquitoes in the summer. You light one and like, it truly creates this barrier and my husband is like a mosquito magnet and it works so well. So huge plug. You can find it on Amazon, Costco,

Speaker A: rei, all over the place. Uh, yeah, it's, it's nationwide, so. And uh, that's, and again, that's the exciting, uh, part of sort of your sister business, if you will. Uh, so it's very, or maybe bigger brother, I don't know what you call it. But you guys are eight, so. But we, so we'll, we'll put that, the show notes, uh, in the show notes for Murphy's natural as well, because that's a big part of what you guys do as well. So. Jesse, I want to thank you for coming on the show. Thanks again. When I met you the first time, I was like, I've got to have you on the show because I just love your story and I love your passion. So thanks for coming on the show and sharing your, your story and your journey. I appreciate that.

Speaker B: Uh, thank you so much, John. I really appreciate having me.

Speaker A: Thank you very much. Well, that's it for today. Thank you for listening to Deep Leadership. If you like this podcast, please subscribe and share so we can continue to build a world with better bosses. Until next time, this is John Rennie saying take care and lead. Well, thank you for listening to Deep Leadership. For more information and updates, please visit our website at. John Srenny.

Speaker B: Welcome to Transforming 45, the podcast that celebrates the incredible power of passionate voices. I'm your host, Lisa Boat. Join me in conversation with heart led humans who share their deeply personal stories of transformation. Transforming45 is here to uplift, connect and remind you that it's never too late to write your next chapter. So get ready to be inspired, empowered and transformed. Join me in this community where through powerful storytelling, we heal and reclaim our inherent magic.

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