Decoding AQ with Ross Thornley Feat. Alejandro Reyes - Transformational HR

Speaker A: Hi and welcome to decodingaq. Helping you to learn the tools, mindsets and actions to thrive in an ever changing world.

Speaker B: Hi and welcome to our, uh, next episode of Decoding aq, the on the road version, a mini series here live in Vegas at Transform. With me today, I have Alejandro Reyes. He's from Boston.

Speaker C: He's from.

Speaker B: He's the chief people and transformation officer. He's an author and executive development coach. Welcome to the show.

Speaker C: Thank you very much. I'm very excited to be here.

Speaker B: Yeah, we've been hanging out. So, uh, Alejandro is this transformational HR and business leader. Uh, he's got more than a couple of decades of experience driving change and organizational effectiveness. He's currently the head of people and transformation practice at Sintrana, uh, education, and he leads the strategic talent and cultural initiatives there. He's a trusted advisor for venture capital firms and the author of an upcoming book, Leading Organizational Transformation. So we're going to spend a bit of time learning about that. But before we start, what brought you to Transform?

Speaker C: Learning and connecting. You know, when you are for too long in hr, you start hearing the echoes of your own words and, you know, going to places where new perspectives are shared helps really amplify your thoughts. So I, you know, I'm very selective. Transform is very well known and they bring thought leaders. So I'm always in search of good thought leaders. And that's why I also excited about what you've been writing recently.

Speaker B: I spoke to a few people who said, uh, I'm so overwhelmed. And then somebody reframed that and said, I'm changing my thought process of overwhelmed to I'm quite full. There's a lot of content here.

Speaker C: Has there been something that has stood

Speaker B: out to you so far in any of the, you know, as you said, great thought leaders, uh, interesting conversations, interesting panels. Is there something that's resonated with you so far?

Speaker C: I think the hunger, the impetus for going beyond the space commonly known as hr. I think there is a growing realization that whatever space we have been occupying is great and we still need to master it, but there is beyond. And that beyond is how do we help organizations really achieve their goals when they are very ambitious and they require these companies to become a company they've never been before. Um, and there is theory about that, but there is little practice shared about that. And I like coming here and hear these leaders talking about it. And the main theme around that reaching to the next space dominates with the artificial intelligence role in all of that. But at the same time is this human side of how do we actually bring all this apparatus of HR to a new era. And most importantly in my opinion is how do we work with leaders in that mindset that needs to modify itself in order to be able to achieve it. It's not going to be technical, but challenge.

Speaker B: Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it, how HR within the discipline is going through transformation. Right. Technological transformation and the desire to go beyond its previous boundaries and then into organizational transformation. One of the people uh, I interviewed yesterday, um, very senior in Dolce and Gabbana, he was talking about how a turning point in his career was when he made the CFO his bff. And that to him was an interesting realization of uh, coming at everything from the people side and loving people to understanding the language of the CFO and becoming responsible for line items on a P and L. And is that what you're seeing more of these as you talked about it, of extending the boundaries of traditional HR in an organizational setting? Tell me more about that.

Speaker C: I think that is one of the central premises of the book, um, is that for a very long time companies believe the HR work is for the HR department to do, similar to thinking that anything related to inclusion is for HR to work on or even for the minorities to figure it out. Partnering with the CFO is just a perfect example of a company that has realized that HR is the name of a group of people who are coordinating an agenda about bringing people into the transformation. Um, and that requires CFO and mainly the CEO to believe that they own the people equation. It's very easy to delegate the people to abdicate it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So that's something HR does. Oh, you failed versus an HR that is able to partner with these players and the C suite to really orchestrate. As a collector perhaps. Yeah. A, ah, choreographer would do. The choreographer doesn't dance. Is the whole company dancing to that music? And that coordination I think is the missing link. We take too much ownership.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: And leaders sometimes say, uh, you're right, you own it. But this example of the CFO or the CEO is uh, creating that necessary link.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, it's that connective tissue as opposed to one serves the others or they do an off site every so often to really, really understanding the different language that different divisions speak and how to play well together through a overall mission of transformation.

Speaker C: I would say that we have recognized silos as a problem. And the biggest silo is that I found is the silo of mindset. Who owns what for transformation is one of the biggest Solutions HR can bring. When we say, when we have engagement, when we have productivity, when we have inclusion, diversity, belonging, who owns that? And the answer to that question determines the success of that endeavor. And it is because in some older schools of thought, there is division of labor, and that's the problems HR needs to solve. And therefore I don't have to own it. And I've seen it very commonly when you say, when you want an inclusive organization, who owns that? And in certain types of companies, you say, well, the diverse people owns, they need to include themselves. And it's exactly the opposite. Right. We need to outplay the inclusion. And so this connectivity that you mentioned is the skill we need to master.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: At the process level, not just at the statement level.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: And that's what I've been preoccupied in the last 10 years. How does it look like when you

Speaker B: actually talk to it? I guess it's that challenge between we. We generate an understanding, some knowledge, but then the application is often different. Right. Um, yeah, we can all read about how to live healthily, uh, eat well, exercise, sleep, how many actually practice it. The actual habits and application similar in business. Right. We can read a book, get the framework, understand the concept. But how we break down the existing, just running an engine that's going on to reimagine it to how it functions. So tell me some ways in which you've experienced this yourself, either in your current role or past roles of going through those phases.

Speaker C: I think there are two ways that I've been learning and experiencing this. The very bad and the very good.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: And that's, uh, a blessing. I didn't know it at the time, but, uh, when I was at Dell, um, we had a very ambitious initiative. And I saw how Michael Dell owned every aspect of it. Not to dictate how it should be done, but not to delegate the commitment to do it. And that reminded me something of one of the thought leaders of the quality movement of the 80s. Uh, Edward Deming said, you can delegate anything except commitment when you have a leader who is attentive, receptive and listening. The transformation we needed to happen was so ambitious, but he was open to get really wild, different ideas. And we came up a group of people, not only me, with a solution that was so radically different, including a session. It's just an example, a session where we had the leaders invited to a room with a C suite. There were groups like five or six rooms, and the task was, imagine the most politically incorrect question you can ask, why this is not going to work. It was a CEO asking that question. So you are really opening a space for bringing on.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: There were only two.

Speaker B: Let's get this.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: Heard, seen and dealt with not in secrets and Zach rooms. Okay.

Speaker C: The two rules were there's no outrageous question. It had to be respectful. Yeah.

Speaker B: Respectful is different to it being challenging.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: It had to be in good language, but it had to be honest. Okay. And the second rule is we're not going to invent an answer if we don't have it. Um, that in other companies would have been 70 slides trying to convince people what something is going to work. Here it was tell me why you believe this may not work. And together we will figure it out. Perfect example of instead of saying we all need to be involved, that's how you activate it. And that's how I tried to write this book. It's just bunkers.

Speaker B: Show me the outbound. Show me the barriers. Let's look at those. Those are the building blocks to success. Yes. Okay. All right. Uh, and give me another example then. Maybe in contrast to that, we were

Speaker C: going through a very big, uh, transformation in a company that shall not be mentioned.

Speaker B: Probably because it's the opposite example.

Speaker C: It's the opposite example.

Speaker B: And we had, Give us an idea of, uh, when you say big company

Speaker C: technology, 140,000 employees, global.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And we had to implement a process and the way of doing it was convincing people. And the way of doing it was by communication. But the type of communication some leaders believe is about. Let me tell you what it is as opposed to, let's just share the thoughts and tell me, what are your reactions? What are your questions? Ah, it's called a conversation. Um, and we were about deploying this big initiative and it was identified. This is the messaging, 11 translations. The usual complexities, the deployment, the army going out, only for people to not feel related to it. And to find later on that there were a number of issues that were not anticipated. And the reason is the effort didn't include in the design. What were the specific needs in some different locations. The American way to say it that way wouldn't translate in India, wouldn't translate.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: In South Africa. The lesson there is we need to create conversations that produce commitment as opposed to curated corporate cinematic messaging, uh, to convince people, leaders believe that once you said something, people understood it and that it's true of life, uh, in every aspect of life.

Speaker B: Any parents can you think, ah, uh, I've communicated it.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: Does that equal understanding?

Speaker C: Not always the one word I like. And you Will see it in the book. I like going to one word. And the answer of one word would be oversimplification. M Leaders are always in a rush and HR follows. So transformations normally occur because there is a burning platform. Something needs to happen. We need to let go people, the indicators, the investors, it's all happening in a chaos. Ah, yeah. And speed is the most important factor. But that speed causes leaders to skip some milestones and say, let's just keep these three milestones get there. But if you miss people understanding and that commitment, then you lose the capacity to actually deliver and the front line. And that to me is the new job of hr. How do we influence the conversation early on for the conversation to be a conversation for commitment as opposed to a story to tell?

Speaker B: Ah, it makes me think of. Because, you know, different words make a difference to the ripple effect of what happens afterwards.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And a lot of what you're talking about are used. Convince is a very much a push strategy. I need to convince tell you why. And uh, marketeer friend of mine, Joe, uh, Polish talks about to compel and uh, as a, instead of push a pull, make something that connects with that individual, that compels them to want to be part of it rather than convince them and push it on them that say, this is, this is us. These are the things let's understand you ensure you understand it and compel you to come and join that initiative to that piece. Uh, in your own terms. Now that requires, as you mentioned, a balance of speed and pace and some fundamental principles that might sometimes get skipped. Right. And they come up later. They come up in. They sure. Well, they show up, um, at some point. When do we want them to show up? It's like a health diagnosis. When do you want to know? Well, actually as soon as possible. Similar to this. When do we want to know the obstacles? When do we want to have those things in place so that we can get the outcomes? So was that some of the driving factors and driving force behind the book or was there another, uh, compelling reason for you of why you chose to consolidate this learning into a, uh, a blood, sweat and tears that is a book?

Speaker C: There were two reasons fundamentally. Uh, the first is I think HR as a function has a tremendous value proposition. And I have felt over the last couple of decades that was a gyration in companies from investing in people to going for productivity alone. It's not to say there's not learning and development. It's not to say there are not tools. Is to say that it was now taken for granted. It is now, well, something people do. And many companies understood that it's easier to hire the right profile and to develop the right profile.

Speaker B: Interesting.

Speaker C: In that universe, HR has kept a very strong voice on what I call business optimization. So we have business partners, we have a great function, a vibrant function. We have improved people services with automation. What is now required is evolved mindsets. If you can scale a mechanism to help people understand why this matters to them, you have the keys of the kingdom. Mhm. Because now you can have exceedingly and extraordinary performance that people see themselves as the artist delivering something that matters to them because they committed to, because they understood the purpose. And the belief is that that's too complicated, that's too much, that's probably unnecessary. Smart people will figure it out, just push it. The goals will do. Is not true. So the book is an attempt to clarify a method that delivers on that capacity to scale transformation. But the second reason that I like even better is that, uh, in order to actually do that, it's not just the process, you need to also have a particular philosophy of leadership that I call leadership of liberation.

Speaker B: Leadership of liberation.

Speaker C: Leadership is only about liberation. And the reason for that is leaders can see something that is missing or something that is on the way. And you work by removing those barriers, either mentally or physical, or policies or processes that were created 20 years ago because we had a problem, uh, metrics nobody uses. When you remove, you get speed. And if you have a hill in front of you, you're creating a city. You may want to create a tunnel as opposed to a lot of little curves around it. So this second reason is how can we influence leadership to be about really removing barriers and also creating visions and purposes that people can fall behind? Yeah, there's more to it. Um, that's the fundamental thing.

Speaker B: It's interesting. This, this word mindset comes up a lot, right? Especially when we're talking about human beings and getting work done. Right. How, what do I value? How do I contribute tomorrow? And what many people are beginning to realize is our mindset is a result of the diet we fed it. What is that diet? Am I curating the diet of my mindset? What are those data inputs that reinforce the neural net of. Well, I've had this experience, this experience, this experience. I'm taking information from here, here and here. These are then the outcomes, the experiences, the emotions, the business outcomes. And we create those links and we continually do that. And that will create positive and negative biases, experiences. And what we're realizing is perhaps the Mindsets we've had to function in a linear world aren't going to serve us as well as the mindsets we need and who we need to become in an exponential world of embracing certain things. And how have you personally evolved your own mindset? What have been some of the techniques and things that you've worked on to enhance it, to um, help it function in a way to do the work you want to do?

Speaker C: Perhaps there are many ways of achieving it. The way I normally surprise myself, uh, is with something completely unrelated and completely alien or different from HR or whatever I'm working on. And that is that maybe I went to a movie and I saw something and I connected to this. For example, um, if you go to Cirque du Soleil, uh, you notice quickly there's a lot of skill there. You notice quickly there's a lot of training there. But there is a overarching design. And years ago I had read a book about design as the ultimate value proposition. And so that word was in my mind. And I went to a gallery once and I saw this harmonious picture and I thought this is trying to communicate something. And I thought on the artist. So this mindset modification, this mindset evolution is to be constantly aware. What can you pick up from other disciplines that inform how you feel about your work? Uh, to me one of the key things about a mindset modification is curiosity. Mhm. People don't change their mindsets when they are too sure or convinced that they are right.

Speaker B: You mentioned the echo chamber. You know, if you hear the same thing, same sound, same voices, same stuff, you're not going to modify it. So you need to go beyond that with the naive mind, with the curious mind to allow potentially some new things to show up.

Speaker C: And those may come from areas that you didn't expect. And I think that's the part where some leaders are very insular. As you mentioned. To me, it's the concept of design that needs to be purposeful. And this idea of human centered design, that was very important a couple of decades ago and still is, was one of the key things that allowed me to think differently about hr. I don't suggest that I have the solution. I have a point of view and I think that point of view is about the role, cannot abandon. What we're doing today is we need to raise our game to figure out how to scale this mindset enhancement capacity, bringing leaders along.

Speaker B: I think it's a, it is a real challenge because we're, we're built to discern, to focus, to Filter. Uh, and our filter is set by a mandate, a vision, a goal. And then we can see what's noise, what's signal, and therefore, efficiency was about relevant, not relevant. Relevant, not relevant. And we would, as you say, go into, oh, I. Blinkers. And even when there are things in the room, we don't see them. We have selective attention. Right. Uh, and there might be things that help, like recency bias. I mean, anyone who has heard a word, read, uh, a book, everything thereafter is seen through that lens. You know, you get a new car,

Speaker C: every car like it.

Speaker B: You then suddenly see loads of them. They existed before, but I didn't notice them. So I think the challenge is how do we shift from living life unconsciously because we're in that blinker. Uh, we're built to filter out all of the noise, to consciously find the different signals, uh, in those often new places. Because we're not. So, ah, uh, I'm at work, I'm lasered. That's noise. I'm now at a museum. I'm watching a film that can give us those little inspirations of connective tissue to expand and find then maybe the bridge from where we are today to ah, ah, because I saw inside out, and that helped me realize this with the kids, uh, about emotions, and maybe I can apply that in this way. So what you're talking about there is being very conscious in walking intentionally through life, in the other areas of our life to expand the way we think, the way we feel. Is that a fair summary?

Speaker C: It is a fair summary. I think it relates to that skill psychologists like to call self awareness. Um, and Frederic Laloux, who wrote an amazing book on leadership, has a statement that I quoted in the book indicating the consciousness of an organization cannot exceed the consciousness of its leader. Just say that again.

Speaker B: Study.

Speaker C: For the consciousness of an organization cannot exceed the consciousness of its leader.

Speaker B: I just want to let that land for a minute. You know, when we think about that, what does that really mean for us? The consciousness of our organization cannot exceed the consciousness of our leaders, in very

Speaker C: practical terms, means that even if your company has very creative people with a lot of ideas, if you happen to have a leader who only believes that the answers come from this particular field, it's not the lack of ideas, it is the over the blindness. Yes. The inability of a leader to listening to that and somehow filter it out. Uh, so I know this has irritated a couple of CEOs I've talked to about this. Say, no, no, no, you're wrong, because my people makes it larger it true. It's not a deficit of quality of ideas is the filter that ultimately makes the decision. That's the physics will filter out. And so what do we do as, uh, hr, as leaders? As hr, our job is to help leaders remove filters. Um, innovation Liberation is a work about removing more than it is about adding. And that's something that, um. When you see that famous quote attributed to Michelangelo, I saw the angel in the marble. All I had to do is remove what didn't belong there. That to me is the leadership of liberation in its essence. But it requires to see the angel and it requires to have the tools to do it. But you have to accept that your mind may not hold the answer the

Speaker B: way you expected it, and to be comfortable with it will reveal itself.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: You know, sometimes you see the angel before you start. Sometimes the angel emerges after 10 first chips or in work to begin to go on a path and allow this balance between this is our goal, this is our North Star. This is our goal, this is our North Star. And have grit and have termin determination, have perseverance to hit it to go. Actually, we've gone this far. I can walk away from the sunk cost fallacy now. This proposition, this idea, this way of doing something, because now I have some new information, some new experience, some new insights. Can I recognize the difference between a cul de sac and a dip? What do I need to continue doing before I then get a value at the other end? You know, whether that is a transformation? If, um, new growth in learning, new growth in bottom line, new growth in capabilities, whatever it may be to. No, we need to stop and turn left if here. Uh, we couldn't see that we needed to turn left here until now. So it's not a. Why didn't we turn left, you know, three blocks ago? We didn't need to. We didn't know we needed to. Now we do. What a wonderful learning that we've learned that quickly. Before we got 10 blocks down the road and took that indicator. Now, that's the challenge between hindsight and foresight. Right. Very easy to connect them backwards, hard when they're forward. Have you, when you talk about transformation, this is a big term, uh, it can often be very daunting if somebody is struggling with living inside an organization that's going through one of these. And I think probably everyone listening to this, their organization is going through it whether they know it or not, and they're going to go through it whether they are or not. So to prepare them better for that, they're going to read the book, what will they thank you most for as a result of reading it?

Speaker C: That there is something you can do. When I was 19 years old, I was still in my college studies and I took a job as a teacher in Mexico, where I'm from. And so, hey, this is an engineer. You can do physics. And they give me like seven things and chemistry and all this. All right. And you know, at that time you could complain about a lot of things on, on education, the ministry, the schedules. Uh, but there was some piece when I could close the door of that classroom and say, whatever is happening, I own this classroom. Whatever resources I don't have, I have 30 hours of these people's life right now in front of me. I will do something with this. And it was a real feeling. Mhm. Everyone listening to us has a classroom today. You don't have to be part of the entire universe of chaos around you when you close your door for what you do. Liberate it, design it, and find a way for the people reporting to you or yourself to be able to express the best of you. If everybody at every level thinks that way is a movement because you can start conversations that are different. So I don't want anybody to feel like you need to be the CEO to, to be a liberating leader. You need to allow yourself to imagine what if I'm not right on this? And to imagine what could I do that really would create a quantum leap difference. How can I liberate my process? Maybe a metric I don't longer need, or maybe a metric I need One little thing, some book I read long ago and I saw. Sorry, I don't remember who said this, but we are leaders 1% of the time and 99% of the time we're just doers. It is that 1% is what am I going to see that would change something I believe which is in the center of all this.

Speaker B: So beliefs, mindset, we're coming back to that same.

Speaker C: My recommendation for your audience is good every night and think what I need to believe for my success. And what did I do today that I liberated something what I didn't liberate today? That's all we need. And start there. If you are the CEO, oh, there will be grandiose answers. You are the head of hr. There will be more opportunities, but everybody can be a liberating leader.

Speaker B: Is there something you're working on to liberate in your own life, um, in your own evolution that you're, um,

Speaker A: working

Speaker B: on that you'd like to share.

Speaker C: I'm glad that this was not the first question because I could feel an hour There is a space in in the family about that. There is always a liberating challenge in every family that I've ever known. I'm m no exception. But I think the book was the most important project of liberation, um, because it provides um, a perspective on a space that I've seen so much failure and so much frustration for too long. The current challenge is no longer writing is how do I help people find ways to be successful? Which is the center of the premise is how do you live for success. My current project is to help the next generation of hr ah leaders to create one more thought in their minds about what HR is really about and what can I do about it. And for that reason I am going uh, to work with whomever I can to disseminate that work. And there may be some interesting projects in the future about HR academies. Um, I think it's just we need many voices in HR to evolve. This I consider is one more voice. Um, it's not the voice, but it's one more voice.

Speaker B: And I guess what you're talking about is the. The permission to imagine.

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker B: And then the framework, the support the community to realize that imagination.

Speaker C: You said it perfect. And the one word I think that connects with that is leverage.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: I think leaders need to understand the main responsibility is liber. If you can achieve that, people will feel like I can do better. I can be myself. Wait a minute. Are you telling me I can actually be who I am? Yes.

Speaker B: That true soul expression.

Speaker C: And it's not oh, how cool it is. It is the only way you get exceeding performance. If you seen a singer or a gymnast, the moment they are doing the routine or the singing, they are fully themselves. You cannot get to move an audience if you're not 100%. That is no different for the accountant. It's not different for that acquisition leader. Uh, it's not different for a CEO.

Speaker B: And then a word and language I've heard used a lot for that is flow. When we're in total flow of soul expression. What are the physical parts of the body that need to be prepared and right for that? To allow the alignment of soul, heart, head, all of that to just be loose sense of time, lose sense of place and just create

Speaker C: with a very basic performance orientation and business orientation. Because there is discipline on all that you will see in the book is not statements is really how you actually do it at scale. What is the technique? What is the process. What is the abc or. That's what I wanted to write about. So, anyway, um, it's been a journey, those two years writing it. But the next project is to help hr.

Speaker B: Yeah, to help hr. And you've mentioned throughout, um, uh, a word, curiosity for every guest that comes on the show. Since our very first guest, I have asked the same question at the end. And it's a homage to our very first episode with Dr. Diane Hamilton, whose focus is on curiosity. And the question, Alejandra, is when was the last time you did something for the first time, and what was it?

Speaker C: I think it was not long ago. I started reading different books.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: Uh, the books I had never picked up before and got interested on the next layer of things. So, for example, um, in order to write, you need to read a hundred times more.

Speaker B: Very true.

Speaker C: And that. That I had not done. I had only read hr.

Speaker B: Yep. You know, those books, Linus is, uh, initial excitement, desire and curiosity often starts in lanes.

Speaker C: And the one thing I did I had not done before was to write the thoughts that was generating in me that were not even written in the book. Uh, and that, uh, for example, I remember talking my family, hey, I'm going to write about leadership of liberation. And my two children, they are early 30s. So if we're going to talk about liberation, you need to really talk about the larger L. Liberation. Your audiences may feel like you need to understand. So I started reading books about struggles in the history of humanity, how those were solved, what was the role of liberation on that. And writing the thoughts that showed up. Yeah, La Loop. Right. So what does that really mean for a leader? That I am the limit and it goes right to the ego. Right.

Speaker A: Uh-huh.

Speaker C: Sorry, but you are the limit of the organization. Wait a minute. Talking about. So I start to collect thoughts that record the thoughts I was having based on these books. In the past, I would have just read the book and the book goes to the shelf. But I think is the one thing I started to do recently. And that started, like, one year ago. Uh, but your question has provoked me the ability to think even further. Other different areas.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting. So, you know, to read things that are not the normal area, but not just read them. Try to comprehend and reflect to make you see things differently, believe things differently. I'm connected to issue. So that practice that you just shared, there is an important step.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, as well. And, uh, yeah, I do these conversations to learn for me, a beautiful place. I love to meet people. I love to have conversations and every one of them gives me new insights as to who do I want to become, who do I need to become to serve the way I want to serve the world? And I truly appreciate the gift you've given me of your sharing, your articulation, your journey. And if people want to get in touch with you because they're curious about the work you're doing, what you've been talking about, what's the best way of getting in touch?

Speaker C: I think the easiest way will be LinkedIn. But we are setting up, uh, pal Greg McMillan, who are my editor, are setting up, um, the book already online. So there will be a presence of the title. But personally I think is the easiest way. Alejandro Reyes. I am setting up a new infrastructure to connect with readers which will be forthcoming.

Speaker B: Yeah. And so we'll get that in the show. Notes to connect on LinkedIn. Congratulations, uh, on this phase of the book. Uh, depending on when you're listening to this episode, when it's just out or, or you're listening to it on the back catalog, uh, go and check out the book. We are, you know, those that lead need to read, uh, and it's a really important part of the process. But the next phase of that is not just to read, is to reflect as we go through. So thank you for that gift.

Speaker C: It's been a real pleasure, Soul man. Thank you all.

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