The Curious Leader's Edge in Uncertainty: Scott Shigeoka

Speaker A: If you're relentless about your practice of curiosity, people will extend grace to you, whether that's your customers, your partners, your teams, when you do actually make a mistake, because that is a virtue of being human. And the more humanity that you can bring to your leadership, the more that we are reminded of seeing you as a leader.

Speaker B: Welcome to IDEO's Creative Confidence podcast Conversations with today's most creative leaders, change makers, and design thinkers. In every episode, we explore how to lead with creativity, build resilient teams, and tackle tough challenges with imagination. Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's the show that we recommend. Hello, hello, it's Brooke Devard from Naked Beauty. Join me each week for unfiltered, um, discussion about beauty trends, self care journeys, wellness tips, and the products we absolutely love and cannot get enough of. If you are a skincare obsessive and you spend 20 plus minutes on your skincare routine, this podcast is for you. Or if you're a newbie at the beginning of your skincare journey, you'll love this podcast as well. Because we go so much deeper than beauty. I talk to incredible and inspiring people from across industries about their relationship with beauty. You'll also hear from skincare experts. We break down lots of myths in the beauty industry. If this sounds like your thing, search for Naked Beauty on your podcast app and listen along. I hope you'll join us. Hi everyone, and welcome to the Creative Confidence Podcast. I'm your host, Meena Setharaman. Today I'm speaking with curiosity expert Scott Shigioka. I kind of came into this conversation thinking I already knew what curiosity was. I asked questions for a living. It's basically in the job description. And then Scott shared a framework with me that showed how many more facets there are to curiosity as a leadership trait. In this episode, we talk about Scott's curious leadership archetypes, predatory curiosity, power dynamics, and practices for bringing curiosity into your own leadership practice. Scott is the author of how curiosity can transform your life and change the world. He's also the head of Curiosity Cultivation at the Eames Institute, and he's currently driving a giant purple van across the country, talking to ordinary people doing extraordinary things. He's been studying curiosity as a tool for connection. This is the third episode in our series on uncertainty. Check out our other episodes with Simone Stoltsoff and Sam Koniff for more perspectives on navigating uncertainty. Scott makes the case that curiosity might be the best thing. We have to answer it, not to resolve the uncertainty, but to move through it with more humanity and better judgment. Here we go. Here's my conversation with Scott Shigioka. Scott, when you were last on the show, the conversation was about curiosity as a foundation. What it is, why it matters, why we tend to lose it as we grow up. And you shared about your book, how curiosity can transform your life and change the world today. I kind of wanted to take that a step further into what it means to actually lead with curiosity. We're going to get into specific archetypes, real research and things you can try to bring more curiosity into your leadership practice. So right now, you are literally driving across the country in a giant purple van with the word curiosity written across the side, which is either the most on brand thing I've ever heard or evidence that you really, truly believe in everything you teach, but probably both. I like to say two things can be true at once.

Speaker A: Right, exactly.

Speaker B: So tell us about the Curiosity Mobile. What is it, what are you doing, and what have you been learning on the road?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I'm so excited about this journey that I'm on. Um, it's the second time that I'm actually going across the country. The first time I did it in a Toyota Prius, which is much smaller, and I took out the back seats,

Speaker B: so a little more comfortable this time.

Speaker A: A little more comfortable, yeah. Took out the back seats, put a bed in it, you know, shared at Planet Fitness, the whole thing. Um, that's the basis of the journey that I took for my book seek. And one of the questions I always got from folks is, do you have any videos? Or, like, can I see you in action, having these conversations with people who are different from you, where you're using your curiosity? And I was like, I do not have any videos. I barely have a social media presence. And folks told me, well, if you ever did this again, you should totally like, video some of the conversations you're having, because I would love to watch it. And so a short of the long is that a few magical sort of encounters happened, and I was able to get some funding to go on the journey again, and this time with a video crew. And so I'm traveling across the country for six months, and I'm really getting curious. I'm modeling curiosity and trying to understand who are the ordinary people across the country that are making their communities in this country better for all. And I think that's so important because if you look at the research, for instance, from organizations like PolicyLink, they found that a majority of Americans want a country, a democracy that includes everyone. Where we all belong, but also a majority of Americans do not believe it is possible, do not believe that we can get there. And I call that the belief gap.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Right. We want something so badly to be true for everyone, to belong for this country, to work for everyone, but we do not think it is possible. And how do you close a belief gap? Well, we know from the research that one of the most effective ways to close belief gap is to use stories to have people see that not only is it possible for us to create better communities in a better country, but it is already happening. And there's examples from all across this country where that is true. And I think that's a great leadership lesson for us, too. If you're trying to get your organization or your community from A to B, and you have a vision by tapping into your collective imagination of, um, where you want to take this organization, especially as culture is shifting and you want to continue to innovate, one of the best tools that you all have at your disposal to help ensure that everyone feels like this is possible is to use and leverage the power of storytelling.

Speaker B: Yeah. I used to come from media, and one of the phrases I used to use a lot was, the shortest distance between two people is a story. It just is a way of making things that seem intangible, tangible, taking things that are abstract and making them concrete for people. Helping to take a reality that is so far out of my reality and making it somehow seem accessible for me.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And it creates a more accurate view.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: What the truth is, and we know from the research of folks like Dr. Samantha Moore Berg out of Utah, that our meta perceptions, which are our ideas of how others see us, are our perceptions of how other groups view our groups. Our meta perceptions are very inaccurate, and they're often exaggerated towards the negative. And one of the best tools that we have to combat this, to, you know, challenge these assumptions that we have of others, is to actually get truthful information, to actually learn about how others actually see us or see our work or see our groups. And what you find, typically, is that, for instance, across political lines of difference, that we feel that we are hated or seen as the enemy much more than we actually are. And so, yes, it is such a great way to make things more concrete, but it also is an opportunity to make things more true as well.

Speaker B: That's actually really interesting because I, uh, often think it would be so great if we could see ourselves the way others see us. Um, well, sometimes you're talking to friends and they have such a down opinion of themselves. And it's like, you need to learn to talk to yourself the way you would talk to your best friend, because you would never speak to your friend the way you're speaking to yourself right now. And it sounds like research shows that actually even perfect strangers wouldn't speak to us face to face the way we seem to think that they might speak to us.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So, Scott, when you're out on the road in the Purple Curiosity Mobile, I love that. I've seen photographs of it, and I just. I find it amazing.

Speaker A: Hop on M board anytime.

Speaker B: I'm not often in Arkansas, so maybe I have to take a look at the map and figure out where it's going to be. But are there specific people or stories from the road that have really stayed with you or ones that you think our listeners should hear just from that experience?

Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. So many. For instance, Kathy, who is a florist, and she told me about her parents who were sent to incarceration camps because they are Japanese, which obviously I, um, am Japanese, and really connected to her story. And they had, you know, grown flowers in the Arizona desert, and they had operated this flower shop that she now operates. And she reminded me that even in benign spaces, like a small business or like a flower shop, there's so much history that can exist there. And if we move through the world not being curious and we're just like, thanks for the flowers. Okay, I'm gonna go give it to my partner. Like, give it to this person, we lose the opportunity to connect with someone who has had such rich history and rich connection to this place that we're in. Which, by the way, that history is repeating itself. Many of the incarceration camps that, you know, people of Japanese descent were sent to are currently being used today. For instance, Fort Bliss in Texas. Speaking of Texas, there was also librarians that I met on the road, like Audrey, who are so inspiring, are protecting this important institution, this important third space in our country, um, the library, which I think are some of the most innovative places in America today. And they are standing up against, um, people who are saying you need to remove certain books from your schools or from your libraries because we disagree with them or because we have a view of them that is, frankly, in my opinion, not true at all. And what they're saying is, we live in a democracy where everyone should be able to rent out the Diary of Anne Frank or, um, how to be Anti Racist or Caste, which are all books that have been, um, put onto the ban list in Texas. And you know, because we are all entitled to check these books out, to learn about the history of the places that we come from, or to learn about the world, or to identify with the characters who are like us, or to learn about the stories of people who aren't. Then the final story I'll share, um, which is a fun one, is in a few weeks. Um, actually, by the time you hear this, I'll have already gone on the adventure, but I'm going to go rafting with a group called Raft for America, which takes Republicans and Democrats on the whitewater rapids to go rafting together. And the idea is that, yes, we have different ideas, ideologies, and different sets of convictions, but what would it look like if we practice working together across our differences, not just talking about what makes us different, but actually doing something in nature? And the Roaring river is such a metaphor for where we're at right now in our society. Talk about uncertainty. You do not know what's around that bend. And we need to rely on every single person that is in this boat, despite our differences and because of those differences, to navigate these waters. And I think these are all just really incredible stories of people who, again, saw a problem, got really curious about it, and developed a solution to it. Um, and it's been such a joy to, like, see all of these stories and experience them in my own life.

Speaker B: Gosh, that's amazing. I was also thinking, I mean, I don't know if you've been whitewater rafting, but, like, the noise of the river is astounding. And I was thinking, what an amazing metaphor for trying to get things done in this environment right now. Because the collaborating and working together, above all the noise and the fray, it just. It felt like the perfect metaphor to me so totally.

Speaker A: And that it takes all of us. Right. Like, if one person isn't doing their job, uh, yeah. You know, this. We could all, you know, you could all go into the water. I definitely don't want that to happen.

Speaker B: Life jackets for all.

Speaker A: Yeah. I think it's such a beautiful illustration of, you know, we all have this capacity to work together. We just sometimes have to be reminded of it in some of these visceral ways.

Speaker B: Yeah. Gosh, what an amazing experience that has been. I can't wait to hear more about some of those experiences as the trip unfolds. I also was sort of taking kind of, in the lead up to this, this sort of personal renewal angle that you mentioned, this idea that, you know, before this trip, this road trip, you were also sort of feeling Kind of burnt out and a little bit hope, and there was a sense of energy that this trip gave to you.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that this is probably really resonant to many people. There's just a lot y' all going on in life in the world, and it is really hard to hold sometimes. And I think that when we're being bombarded by messages on social media and in our news about how terrible everything is, and a lot of the problems and issues that are communicated to us are true, but there's also missing information that there's a lot of solutions that are already on the ground. There are a lot of people that are actively working to benefit us all. And so as I've gone out and I've met a neighborhood in northwest Arkansas that's welcoming refugees, or I met librarians who are protecting the free and open exchange of ideas, or I met a group of roommates that are rebuilding in western North Carolina after a hurricane in. I'm meeting real people who saw problems in their communities or challenges, and they said, we can do something about this. And. And I think that has been so inspiring for me because we are in a moment when, you know, our imagination and our agency is at, uh, I would say, you know, uh, an all time low. And I think one of the best ways that we can reignite that for ourselves, at least I'll speak for myself. It was for me. And at least what I can share from my own firsthand experience is that by going out and getting curious and learning about these really inspiring true stories of what people are doing, it gave me so much optimism and it gave me so much more motivation to continue to do this work. And I think the same is true. And even a workplace, right, if you're experiencing, you know, low morale, people are really struggling with apathy. And they're saying, like, what is the point trying. Because the challenges seem so vast. I mean, again, one of the best things that we can do is to give people that opportunity and that experience to get re energized and to be inspired by what is happening in this country or in our field. You know, stories of success.

Speaker B: As you talk, it sort of makes me think of like, uh, it sort of busts the echo chamber a little bit, right? Because the algorithms, I feel, right now are very much about rage baiting and kind of like perpetuating the sad stories or the things that make us feel the most disappointed. But it feels a little bit like this trip is helping you to find those stories that actually are much more uplifting and Kind of open your mind to. Actually, there are these lovely pockets of great things that are happening around the country that sort of dispel those. I wouldn't call them myths, but at least dispel the idea that everything is bad everywhere.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, and that's kind of amazing.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's a trait of curiosity. You know, that's something that has always been a mantra for me, is, what else are we missing? You know, what are we not seeing? Who are the people that should be in this room that aren't in this room? And when we come at the problems that we're experiencing in our lives, in our country and our companies, with that curiosity, we're able to highlight perspectives that we're likely missing that can advance our work. I like to come at everything with intellectual humility, the understanding that there are limits and boundaries to my knowledge, and that I must rely on other people. And I, as a leader, do not have all the answers. And therefore, I will go out and seek how other people are solving the problems that, um, I'm also experiencing and see if there's anything that I can learn from them. And there often is something to be learned when you bring in new perspectives. So I think those are just always great questions to hold as a leader, um, and something I've definitely held on the trip.

Speaker B: I actually really love this idea that kind of, you know, hopping into a van and going across the country to meet people isn't just about, like, information gathering. It's actually a way to recover your own capacity to find joy and optimism and lead. In many ways, it's. It feels like it's sort of at the heart of the work that you're doing. That curiosity isn't just a mindset. It's actually something that you can see in how people move through the world, because you're seeing it in kind of these really diverse populations, where. In places where you maybe hadn't actually expected. So that kind of brings me to a project that you've been working on that I'm finding really interesting, which is the work that you're doing at the Eames Institute. So you're the head of Curiosity Cultivation. Honestly, I think that might be the coolest, if there's a prize for this, the coolest title that I've ever come across. But as part of that role, you are one of the curators of the Curious 100, which is a list of people who exemplify curiosity and practice. In full disclosure, the 2026 list actually includes a couple of IDOers IDEO founder David Kelly, whose book Creative Confidence is the namesake for this podcast, and IDEO's current CEO, Mike Peng. So we, you know, we're fans of the list for obvious reasons. But what separates someone who uses curiosity as a real leadership tool from someone who just naturally is inquisitive? What do you look for when you're curating that list?

Speaker A: Yeah, so these are a group of incredible individuals that we're highlighting who are solving problems with this curious mindset, but they're doing it in a bunch of different ways. And so, like you mentioned, David and Mike are part of the list. We also have architect designers like Ronald Rea, who, uh, created the teeter totter at the US Mexico border wall, which was this opportunity for families to play and to connect in our shared humanity. Um, it was very symbolic. It was very powerful. I highly recommend folks look up the teeter totter. There's also artists and there are production designers who are creating films. There are, you know, there's a whole range of people that, um, are on that list, and I encourage everyone to check it out@the curious100.org the main thing that we're saying is that, you know, especially in this moment of uncertainty, which is, like, the focus of the series, and also in this time of division and this time of shifting technology and culture, we really need leaders who are curious, who are constantly looking out at the world and saying, how are things different? What can I learn from people who are unlike me, but also looking inwardly as well and asking themselves these really important questions, you know, So I think we're doing the work of what's called social norming, which is to say, like, this is a practice or this is a set of skills that we're seeing from leaders. For instance, the ones on the list that are taking their work even further, that are, you know, really reaching and resonating with audiences. And we want everyone else to know, like, this is a set of practices that you can develop as a leader as well. And there is a science of curiosity, too. That's much of what my book is based on, that there are particular exercises that you can do to become more curious as a leader or as a person. And I'm sure we'll have time to talk more about that today, too.

Speaker B: Absolutely. I can't wait to dive into that, actually, because I think our audience loves those kind of practical exercises that they can undertake, um, that help them to grow those skill sets. So really, when I think about the teeter totter and even things like the Eames Museum, for example, I think about curiosity kind of at this level, kind of at that leadership level. It's not just about asking those questions. It's really about how you look at a problem and then respond to it in a way that maybe most people wouldn't have thought to do. Like that teeter totter isn't just about play necessarily. Although, like, who doesn't love a teeter totter? Um, but it really is about play as a way of fostering community and breaking down a wall. Right. Like breaking down this division. Right. Helping people to see kind of what you do with the Curiosity Mobile. Right. Helping people to see people that maybe you think of as being another. And in fact, they're not. Like, we're actually all much closer to one another than we might think, that the border is actually kind of an artificial construct in some ways. Right. That we're all humans at the end of the day.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: And so it's a really interesting kind of way of looking at it. And the categories in the curious 100, like, the way you've broken out the categories, I think, allows a lot of flexibility for how you might apply your curiosity, which I think is a really lovely way of thinking about it as a skill or a muscle that you can build.

Speaker A: Absolutely, yeah. Uh, I think about, for instance, storytellers as one of the categories. I think about Tiffany Yu, who is an incredible author and uses her platform to, you know, talk about dissatisfaction in America and across the world and how we can get more curious, especially if that is not our lived experience, and what are the ways that we can engage with people who are different from us. Chaz, who's an incredible video editor, he edited the Kendrick Lamar, uh, videos and has done a lot of incredible music videos for some of the top talent in our country. And he really focuses on how the power of music is such a motivator for culture and for change. And the way in which we can see ourselves represented on screen or represented in our music really can help us to fill a sense of belonging, can really help us to be activated. When musicians say, you know, here are issues that you can be a part of or that you can, you know, support. So, yeah, there's so many incredible humans. I mean, everyone can just go on the website and look them up. But I think the point is exactly what you're saying, that curiosity looks like many things. It is not just about asking questions.

Speaker B: I'm very taken by what you're saying, because I think that, you know, it's very much about asking Questions, which is a big thing at ideo, like, as you would know, that we hold space for asking smart questions. And the smarter the question, the better the solution. Right. That's sort of how we think. And as you were talking, I was thinking about this idea that a lot of what curiosity is in fact about, especially in the way that you're describing it, is this idea that you. You have to be willing to pause at the idea that things could be different and wonder how they could be different or better or how they could have a different sort of impact. So whether it's activism and engaging people to want to be activists through music, or whether it's just thinking a little bit differently about how you might lead in a business or how you might architect a building differently so that it feels more accessible to its community, there's so many different ways of thinking about that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That it almost like it does demand, like, thinking about curiosity across a number of different categories and many facets. But it is that sense of wonder of how things could be different or better or more accessible that it's that sense of wonder, but impact attached to that wonder.

Speaker A: Yeah. And it's about a reminder of our capacity to be transformed ourselves. So a big practice is to be an admitter, is to admit when you do not know something or to admit when you got something wrong, which is actually a leadership skill that many folks are afraid to try. But I always say that that is so critical, especially when you look at the research, that when you are seen as a more curious leader and you ask questions and you admit when you do not know things or got things wrong, you are actually more liked as a leader. You are seen as more competent as a leader. And you are also more easily forgiven when you make mistakes. And that really matters in this culture of. Of moral outrage and canceling and, you know, immense sort of pressure that's put on leaders to get everything right. And if they don't, what might be at stake? Well, know that you have the research on your side, that if you're relentless about your practice of curiosity, people will extend grace to you, whether that's your customers, your partners, your teams. Um, when you do actually make a mistake, because that is a virtue of being human.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And the more humanity that you can bring to your leadership, the more that we are reminded of seeing you as a leader. You know, I think that there is this illusion that, like, leaders need to be perfect, but that obviously is a trap. But I. You know, I think a more beneficial way of thinking about leadership is how do we stay as curious as possible? How do we see that as a companion? How do we look at problems, uh, in different ways, ask different kinds of questions? How do we admit our own limitations? How do we understand who's not in the room that should be a part of co creating or co designing with us? You know, those are all the pieces of being a, uh, curious leader that I think are so critical, especially right now.

Speaker B: Yeah, let's talk a little bit about that because, uh, you know, you were talking about the things that the research bears out and you talked about kind of competence and likability. It was funny that you were talking about, you know, admitting when you were wrong. Because I recently was working on a new financial forecast. We do them every quarter. It's the most joyous part of my life, I have to tell you. But. But I own something. I was talking to our controller. I said, that was my mistake. I own that because I was too optimistic with what I thought this one person could achieve. And when I look at the circumstance I put them in, there's no way they could have achieved that. Especially after I did more research and talked to other people in the industry. What I was expecting of them was an unfair expectation. And that I own, um, that's my fault. And I said, and now I know better because I did more research and I found out. So here's realistically what this person might be able to do. And they said, yeah, but you have so much on your plate. And I said, that is also true, but it doesn't mean that I didn't get that answer wrong and that I can't correct it. Right? So I can't. And I don't. That's not their fault. They did the best they could. And I know that there is, There was this very big time of the hero leader, right, where we just expected a smart person to come in and they would know the answer and we would all just do what they told us. I just think that questions are too complex and therefore the answers are too complex now and too matrixed for us to think that the hero leader still exists. And so this idea that you're talking about, of bringing more people in, asking more questions, making space for those questions. It feels like, especially in times of uncertainty, in times of complex problems, it's not just how trust is built, it's probably how, like, better decisions.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And we do know that that is true. Different kinds of viewpoints and perspectives that are brought to the table. The more that that is well managed, the more that that is supported. The more that that is curious, the better the outcomes will be. The better the answers will be, the more innovative and creative the results will be. And I think what you're also doing in that story, Mina, is you're also giving other people permission to be human themselves and to make mistakes. You know, we want teams and that feel like they can take risks and feel psychologically safe to make mistakes and try things that are unorthodox because that might actually be the key to something new for the organization. And so I think you're gifting people a permission as well as a leader, when you acknowledge your own humanity and that you recognize that, yeah, I did make a mistake in that situation. Um, so I think that's really beautiful. Yeah.

Speaker B: So you talked about competence and likability. You talked about forgiveness when we get it wrong. Right. The curious leaders are more easily forgiven when they're authentic. I think performative humility or performative curiosity is kind of a pain in the butt.

Speaker A: And people can sense it. People have, they figure it out and have been working with humans long enough to know, like, wow, that is not genuine.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then you also talk about power and directionality. Can you like, lean into that a little bit and explain that a little bit for us?

Speaker A: Yeah. A lot of that comes from Emile Bruno's work as a researcher. And he, you know, he was actually a high school teacher and he would lead these cross racial intergroup dialogue, um, experiences for his high school students. And he would find oftentimes, for instance, across race, that when they'd have these conversations, you know, everyone has 50 time to speak, that oftentimes he would notice that his white students would get a lot out of that opportunity, would learn a ton, which felt really grateful for that experience. But the students of color would feel more exhausted, would feel like they did a lot of teaching, not as much learning, and they didn't walk away with that same sense of positive affinity towards the other group as, uh, their white counterparts did. And so he wanted to kind of explore that dynamic and understand, like, what's going on here. Is there any way to shift that? And what he learned through his research is that power really matters when we talk about curiosity. That if you have more social power in a, uh, situation, it is actually more important for you to be curious. And if you have less social power in a situation, it's more important for you to do what's called perspective giving or to share your stories and your perspectives and your, your lived experiences. And when you shape it in that direction, when you have a particular group that has more power becoming more curious, it actually leads to both groups walking away feeling like they got something out of that, that they feel a larger, uh, sense of positive affinity towards the group that they just had a conversation with. So what, what this points to is curiosity is really critical for conflict, and which we're in a moment of conflict, and conflict is not bad. Conflict is the source of, of transformation. But it becomes really terrible for all of us when it's not managed well. And so curiosity becomes this really important practice for us in conflict transformation. So knowing the power and, uh, doing a power analysis is super critical so that, you know the direction of curiosity, which group should be more curious. So another example is if you are a leader, an executive of an, uh, organization, and you're trying to figure out as a chief people officer or chro, you're like, why is everyone that is new to the organization feeling such low morale and is leaving quickly? And there seems to be a lot of issues and challenges. Well, it is actually more important for you as a leader, as someone that has tremendous power over policies that, uh, you decide the livelihood of many of the folks that you're trying to solve for and design for. And it's more important for you to be curious, not for you to go to a team meeting or an organizational meeting and try to lecture everyone and share all the benefits of why this is so important for you to stay in this company, but instead for you to do a listening tour and go around and ask questions like, why is this happening? Like, what has your experience been? If you could wave a magic wand and change anything about our culture, what would you do to create an, uh, environment that's more welcoming, that leads to people staying here? So that, that power analysis is really important. And then the other piece I would say is there's a reason why clinicians like marriage and family therapists use curiosity as a way of helping their clients and patients in a moment of conflict. Because curiosity slows us down when we are in a conflict in the boardroom or in the bedroom, one of the best things we can do is to get curious instead of trying to share our own viewpoint about why we are right where our idea has the most merit. Like, everyone, listen to me, I, I, I, I, I. You're using curiosity to really understand the perspective of the other person who you love and whether that's that, uh, person you are romantically partnered with or that person you are collaborating with in the workplace. Like, that is rooted in my opinion from A place of love. You want to understand where are you coming from? Why is this perspective important to you? Um, how did you come and arrive to this solution? And what that does is it not only allows you to gain more perspective on the problem and on this person that's in front of you, but it also slows down the conflict question asking. And that has a lot of, uh, physiological benefits just to reduces cortisol, research has found. It also suggests to reduce our heart rate and it slows our breathing. And all of those things are so critical for us to have a sound mind when emotions are high. And so it's such a great tool for conflict transformation, which is so important right now.

Speaker B: It also strikes me, you know, you've talked a lot about how belonging drives retention and this feels tied to that in some ways because by slowing things down and not focusing on convincing, but rather on that conversation and making space to hear what the other person says, you're helping them to feel, I don't know, more seen, like their opinion actually matters. And so it helps them feel like not just that they're included in the conversation, but actually like they, that they matter and that they belong, which in the workplace, you know, it isn't just about inclusion. Like belonging is what keeps people in your workplace. Right? Like, that is actually much more important in some ways.

Speaker A: And I think that's so important, that distinction, you know, inclusion is about like opening the door and getting people into the workplace that, ah, represents the full diversity of, you know, our, uh, country and of our world. But you can still be included to the table and not feel like you belong. You can be sitting at that table and feel like, ooh, I, I don't feel like I truly matter here. I don't feel valued here. I don't feel like even if I say my perspectives, it's actually going to be heard. And so they're both really, really important. But you're right that oftentimes when I'm working with organizations, they're thinking so much about inclusion, but not so much about belonging.

Speaker B: Leadership isn't about having all the answers. It's about creating space for others to thrive. IDO Use foundations and Creative Leadership Certificates helps you develop the mindsets and skills to lead with empathy, creativity and purpose, especially in times of change. Explore more@ideo.in creativeleadership. That's ideo.in creativeleadership. Let's get back to it. You actually have a really simple exercise. You know, you call it a free practice, but it really doesn't cost anybody Anything that you recommend to folks, folks, could you share that with us?

Speaker A: There's so many wonderful ways to integrate curiosity, uh, into our meeting. So, um, one easy and simple way I actually learned from teachers in elementary school is it's actually something that is so powerful even for adults, but we just don't do as often, which is that they start their day with their classes with a question of the day, something that's really relevant to the exercises that they're about to learn that day, or something that they're working on. And they go around and everyone in the class, or however much time they have, um, answers their perspective on this question, which could be like, we're going to focus on history today. You know, what are the ways that you learn about the history of our community? Right? So that's just an example. You can also do this in the workplace. Well, why not start that meeting by asking everyone, when have you felt like you truly belonged here in this workplace or anywhere, you know, in your working career or anywhere in your life? Walk us through that story, tell us more about that. And what that does is it gets people inspired by the examples that people have in their actual life. But it also primes us, which is this really important research based strategy of reminding people, look at the value that belonging has in your life, look at how that made you feel, look at the positivity it brought for you by talking about those stories as a group. We are now priming belonging and you are going to be more motivated to want to solve for this because you see how important it is. And that's a strategy I even use when I do curiosity keynotes. I always start oftentimes with a, uh, mindfulness practice, which is basically moment to moment awareness. And I have people think about who is someone that they want to extend kindness to because they were curious about them, they asked them questions, they were genuinely interested in who you were. And I have them think about that person, reflect on that person, you know, really sense, like what's coming up for them in their body. Are they feeling their shoulders, you know, soften, or are they feeling a warmth in their chest? And that is, yes, it's a moment for them to have a feel good moment and a, uh, practice of mindfulness. But it's also a moment for me to prime it to the audience and say, do you see how important curiosity is? Because look at the impact it's had on your life. And now what would this look like if we became the bearers of curiosity and we got to help everyone in our Companies experience that same thing that you valued so much in this three minute exercise. So again, priming is so, so powerful. And that's also what question asking does for us at the beginning of meetings.

Speaker B: I love this. I feel like it has really helped, especially in a remote environment or a hybrid environment, because I feel like when we were in person, there were lots of little cues that you could take advantage of. People have pictures of their kids or their last vacation or a car that they like or whatever at their desks, and you got those visual cues of the things that they wanted to share about themselves that they were comfortable as conversational elements. Now we don't have a lot of that, um, because so many of us are remote. And so I feel like we have to more actively pursue sort of where are the kind of edges of that, like, what is a thing that we might be willing to share? An insight that we have, an experience that we have at, uh, finding those questions that allow us to share a little bit of ourselves or to decide the boundary of what we want to share around a question gives us some of that space to allow people to A, decide how much of themselves they want to share and then B, allow us to sort of learn more, hear more, see more of each other as people in that space. So it helps us to sort of set up the boundaries of like, how curious can I be, how, how much of a share do I want to give you, but create those relationships in that space.

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, absolutely.

Speaker B: Which is hard in a hybrid environment, if we're totally honest.

Speaker A: Yeah, it is a challenge. And I think that that's why it's so critical for as much as you can and that resources allow for groups that are remote to me in person to have those experiences where you're connecting in like world so that you can have those kinds of moments of relationship building, but also trust building. Like what happens when we see people in their fullest humanity outside of just the roles and the boxes on Zoom or Google Meets or whatever software you use is that you, you have these moments where you can collide with other people and talk about, you know, your families and talk about where you're from and your, and home and, and all the other things that come up to you in those everyday moments. And that builds trust, Trust. And we are living in a time right now where there is a decay of trust, you know, towards others and institutions. And that makes it really hard to create a, uh, functional working place where there is, you know, true collaboration that succeeds because we need to trust one another. We need to feel safe with one another.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I want to talk a little bit about a framework that you've been working on. It's work that you're doing on curious leader archetypes. Different, different styles of curious leadership that people will probably be able to recognize themselves in. And before we kind of get into what they are or the traits that you're seeing, I wanted to ask, you know, you talked a little bit about, um, uh, the business argument for some of these things. But why does, why does the framework matter? Why is it useful for a leader to know which archetype they are or aren't?

Speaker A: Yeah, I, I think that we want to give people the menu of options. There is no one way to be a curious leader. And in fact we are presenting four archetypes, but there are likely many more that we have missed. But it's just a thought starter to get people thinking into. Oh, maybe there are some skills, um, practices of curiosity like question asking that I'm really great at, but maybe there's others around being intellectually humble and admitting when we make mistakes or are wrong that I'm less great at. Right. And so it just shows different muscle groups of curiosity that I think is really helpful for folks to just learn and grow and play in their curious leadership. And I think there's also, obviously everyone loves a good quiz. I mean, where you can learn a little bit more about yourself and, and be like, oh, I'm an explorer or like, oh, I'm an imaginator. That's so cool. So I think there is a little bit of uh, fun curiosity there to better understand yourself and to answer the quiz and figure out which leadership archetype are you probably most aligned with or more strongly suited towards and what are areas that you can probably grow into a little bit more. So I think I'll just be real there. I think that's a really important key component of it. But I think it also is a thought, uh, and conversation starter for teams. So that when everyone in a team takes this quiz and they figure out what their archetypes are, that's a great starting point to talk about the practices of curiosity in a way that's really structured in a way where you're not just standing in front of your team or your organization saying, okay, curious leadership, uh, Sarah, go, what's your thoughts? This is just a way for folks to, to self organize. And you know, I remember growing up and going to. For anyone in Hawaii or who comes from the islands, we have this amazing place called ICE palace, which I would always go to, which was our ice skating rink, which was like, so, like a place of awe and curiosity for me. Because obviously in Hawaii you're not like, seeing, you know, like, lakes of ice, which, uh, isn't something I saw until my adult years.

Speaker B: That's funny because I grew up in Canada. So all you had were Ice Ridge.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What is the Ice palace equivalent? Forget. But, um, so I would go to Ice palace, and we have this game called Four Corners, and you would ice skate to one of the four corners. You know, I think there's ways of using the curious leadership archetype framework in that same way where you have folks go to a corner of the room based on what archetype, you know, they identified with, you know, using the quiz, have conversations with their fellow provocateurs or their fellow explorers, which are two additional archetypes, and they talk about it. They talk about how that shows up in their work, in their life, the benefits, maybe the challenges they have with it. But then they go across and they meet someone who has a different archetype than them, and they learn and they share a bit more about their experiences. And again, you're just exercising these muscles of curiosity to say, wow, look at what happens. Yes, we can learn from people in our group.

Speaker B: Group.

Speaker A: We can learn from folks who are like us, but we can also learn so much and sometimes more from those who are different from us, who have a different way of navigating through the world or through the workplace. So why don't we get curious about them as well?

Speaker B: Yeah, I know you're still working through the framework, so you probably haven't, like, fully decided all of these things or mapped them all out. But you talked about provocateurs and explorers, for example. Like, are there examples of the traits of each one of those?

Speaker A: So there are four archetypes that, uh, uh, curious leaders could fall into. There's the explorer, the provocateur, the reflector, and the imaginator. So the explorer is someone who, like I mentioned, with the Curiosity Mobile trip, or a leader that goes and does a listening tour, you know, and traveling across the country, learning from all their retail workers to sense what belonging looks like in their stores. Like, those are great examples of what explorers do. They're asking questions, they're meeting people, they're seeing what is out there. Right. That. That is really what an explorer is. And I think many people, you know, really recognize themselves as an explorer type of curious leader. Provocateurs are really. They're asking these questions of like, is this actually true? Or what perspectives or people might we be missing here? They're often seeking multiple perspectives. They're the ones that ask the really uncomfortable questions. They say the quiet parts out loud. They're the ones that, that help us to stay accountable to the end in mind or to the goals that we have for our project, but also to the values that we have as individuals or as a, uh, collective. They're always encouraging or oftentimes encouraging positive and generative disagreement. You know, they don't shy away from conflict. They see tension as an opportunity for learning about new perspectives and pushing our thinking and growing. A reflector is a leader that is constantly evaluating the experiments and the projects that they're doing so that they can integrate those learnings. They love a postmortem. They love a debrief. They're really all about surfacing. What did we just learn from this experience we went through? What did we learn from this project? How did that challenge the assumptions that we held at the beginning of the project? And what can we apply for our future work? Work? But reflectors are also reflecting on the culture of the workplace or the culture of the world we live in. They're also analyzing, where are we in this current moment in time, and how does that influence our work or the way that we market the products or services that we have. An imaginator is really someone who leverages their imagination and their creative capacities to create something new that didn't exist before. So they are often creating new programs. They might be the head of new ventures at ideo. Like, I don't know. I don't want to make a guess, like, you know, but I would suspect, based on my understanding of where we were at with the archetypes development, that, like, that is someone like you. You're seeing new paths forward. You understand that, like, what we did before doesn't necessarily have to be what we do next. Um, you know, you're constantly thinking of new, exciting collaborations or partnerships as an imaginator that you could bring in to your organization to spark something new. Um, I think imaginators, uh, really love mentoring because they see the possibilities in rising leaders and employees. They are basically people that see what is possible, and they are in the business of possibilities. And so that's what an imaginator is. So there's all of these different archetypes that we've developed. Again, there's probably more that we're missing, but. But hopefully that gets people started and understanding what kind of a Curious leader, am I? And what about my team? And, you know, what can we learn from one another in our different approaches?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting because I can kind of see bits of. Because it's all about me, of course, but I can see bits of myself in each one. And it made me think about this situationally because in different situations, I feel like I'm a different part of each one of these.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: I do have, uh, like a. At relatively high uncertainty tolerance. Just naturally, that's just how I am. And someone actually on our team once told me that they don't think I just tolerate uncertainty, that they think I kind of like it in a way that's a little scary for other people. And I think that might be true. But I have worked very successfully with leaders who are the opposite, who are not comfortable with uncertainty at all. Because I do think it takes all types. Right?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so do you think that people have like, a, uh, home archetype where they maybe, like, lean into one set of behaviors over another, depending on the situation that they're in? Because I was thinking about leaders I've worked with where I lean one way because I know it will complement their skills in a different way. Or like wartime and peacetime presidency. I feel like they're different.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, again, these are really, um, you know, like, think back to, like, Animorphs, you know, the amazing books. I don't know if anyone read them, but you can kind of shapeshift into any of these four archetypes. You know, we probably have a dominant based on our culture and our upbringing and, you know, the kinds of mentors or the kinds of workplaces that we were, you know, immersed in throughout our lives. But it doesn't mean we don't have access to the other ones. And they're like different hats we're trying on, and they're adaptable to different contexts. To your point.

Speaker B: So, Scott, we've talked about being a leader in this time, how it's so uncertain. Sort of the myth of having to be a leader who has to come in with all the answers and the idea of the power dynamic. And in some ways, the more power you hold in the dynamic, the better it is to be the more curious person in that dynamic. But I know some leaders will have a question when they hear all of this. Does being a curious leader mean that I have to take everyone's opinion into every decision, that I can never be certain as a leader. How do you hold that curiosity and conviction at the same time.

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, so you absolutely should have your own convictions and your own values and your own beliefs and your own points of view. I mean, that's why you are a leader, and that is, um, why you have been given this position of authority and influence in your organization or in your community. And the point of curiosity is not to, um, you know, to release yourself of those convictions and just take on whatever the flavor of the week is and whoever you're talking to in that moment. It's instead to expand your perspective and your understanding of your own views and the work that you do in this world. And so your curiosity should open you up to moments of like, I never thought about it like that. And actually that is stretching my own perspectives. Or like, like, wow, see, this story really reaffirms why I have this conviction, uh, and why belonging is so important, because look at what it's doing for this employee that I just sat down with and had a deep conversation with. Um, so I think it can be a reinforcer, it can be a stretcher. Um, but it also, to the words of bell hooks, it should remind us of our capacity to be transformed, where if we have held a very strong perspective on something, again, it is so important for us to stay curious, to hold our convictions and our values, but also to not hold those convictions so tightly where, um, you're not able to be influenced or transformed by new information. And this is like the dance of the modern day, you know, this is, yeah, this is, you know, like, like waiting in the uncertainty and the complexity that exists, having really tough conversations, um, and trying to negotiate that with really smart and interesting people, um, that can help push your thinking forward. And we're not always going to do it perfectly. And I think I have a lot of, uh, self compassion towards myself as a leader and a lot of grace towards others. I think you can't have curiosity without those two things.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think early in the podcast you talked about this notion of curiosity and humility. Right. Those two things go together. And I think it's that idea that there's a difference between conviction and hubris. If you can come in with conviction, like, I have certain very strongly held beliefs. The hubris is that I'm always right in my beliefs. Right. The curiosity is there might be space for me to explore new ideas, and I might explore them and still at the end make the decision to go with my original thought. But I'm willing to explore these new ideas. There's an authenticity to it that I think is important, which actually Leads me to my next question, which is you kind of have this really good notion that we have to watch out for, which is that curiosity alone is not just automatically a good thing. Right. That we have to watch out for certain behaviors attached to it. Um, you actually coined a term, I think you mentioned it in your first episode, um, this term of predatory curiosity, which I love as a term, not as behavior. And I would love for you to kind of give us the short version for anybody who didn't hear that first episode from 2024. What does that look like? And what's the practical takeaway for leaders around it?

Speaker A: Yeah, so predatory curiosity is a near enemy of curiosity. It looks like it, but it actually isn't it. So that is when, and we've all felt it in some way at like a family reunion or you know, in a workplace meeting where, you know, someone is asking questions, they're leaning in with their or nonverbal communication and then you say the thing that they were hoping for and then bam, it's like a gotcha moment. They start telling you with the CVS receipt length arguments that you're wrong, here's why you're wrong. Look at all these different things that I know to be true. Ah, that invalidate your argument. And so that is not true curiosity because there was an ulterior motive or an agenda underneath your question asking, underneath your exploration. True curiosity, in my opinion, is about asking questions but not knowing where your arrival, your destination is going to take you or uh, where you're going to end up. Right. And to stay completely open hearted and open minded to say, I don't know this person's perspective or experiences fully. Even if this is a person I've been married to for 20 to 30 years, or even if this is a person I've worked with for a very long time as a co founder or as a fellow leader, that there's always new information that we can uncover and that if we challenge our assumptions and our biases by coming from a place of curiosity, we can arrive at an altogether completely new, you know, place of understanding. And so predatory curiosity is really related to this mantra as well of, you know, our curiosity is earned, not deserved. And what I mean by that is, is folks might be curious in the workplace about someone's health, diagnosis that they had, or about whether they're pregnant or not. It does not mean you're entitled to any of that information just because you are curious. You have to first build that trust and that relationship so that a person feels safe and feels Willing to meet your curiosity with the responses that answer it. And so I always say your curiosity is earned. And so how do you do that important foundational work of relationship building so that curiosity can actually be met? Because you want to incentivize that behavior in the workplace. So yeah, those two, um, sort of concepts are really related to one another. I do think that there's a lot to learn from organizers, community organizers who are doing practices like deep canvassing, which is this idea of, of door knocking, going to doors knocking. And the old way of doing canvassing is like, let me tell you why this thing is so important and let me try to change your mind about it. This newer emerging form of work that's come out of places like the LA LGBT center and their leadership lab is to do what's called deep canvassing, which is to knock on a door and to ask lots of questions and to connect something around, let's say, trans rights with someone's personal experience. Like, do you know anyone who is trans that's in your life? Like, oh, wow, you have a love one. Can you tell me more about them and you know what that journey has been like from your experience? Or like, oh, if you don't, you know, what, what do you think, you know, they might be experiencing, you know, day to day in this world, given the realities that. And just having people exercise their own curiosity and to use that to basically empathize with people who maybe are unlike them is actually a really powerful lever of change. It helps people to reconnect to those convictions and those values that, that many of us share. By the way, despite what our political ideologies are like, many of us have the same shared values. And we want safety for our communities, we want freedom, we want agency over our lives, we want fairness and equity. All of these things that I think many of us, most of us agree on. It helps us to reconnect to those values and say, oh, wow, what would I do? What are the decisions I would make that help me to vote in a particular way or help me to work in a particular way that aligns with these convictions that I hold so strongly. So deep canvassing has been suggested by the research to be a, uh, really powerful way of using generous listening and curiosity to help people to have more pro social behaviors, to make sure that we're creating that country where everyone truly belongs, because that's what we all want.

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, I really like that term, generous listening because I think a lot of what's happening right now is that people, people don't feel heard and don't feel listened to. So making space for that could probably make some level of difference. But what I'm also hearing is actually that, you know, around that notion of predatory curiosity, Curiosity without actually caring about what the person is saying is just a form of interrogation.

Speaker A: Yes, exactly. Totally. It's what a prosecutor does, you know? Right. Like, and it's like they're trying to get to something. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah. They're trying that for that aha moment.

Speaker A: Totally. And we humans are caring people. Like, we do care about people. We just maybe have different perspectives on who is being victimized or harmed in situations. And, you know, Dr. Kurt Gray actually has a lot of really interesting research out of the Ohio State University in his book Outrage about how we can use our curiosity to understand who do people perceive as the most harmed in this situation? And you might think that one group is most harmed. Um, but I have a very different perspective on that. And when we deny that or we oppose someone's real perceptions on who is being harmed, that can actually lead to us being dehumanized because they don't feel like their perspectives matter. There's such rich social, psychological research on how we humans be humaning, and we have this huge opportunity to leverage that science in all of our workplaces. And my big takeaway is that much of the conflict that we're experiencing, much of the lack of. Of feeling, a sense of belonging, much of the perfectionism and the lack of, uh, risk taking and wanting to go for creative and innovative ideas, our inability to navigate conflict, like all of these problems, can be addressed by creating a culture of curiosity and by equipping leaders with curiosity. It is one of the most important things that we need to exercise, especially in this time that we're living in.

Speaker B: Okay, Scott, to close us out, we're gonna do a lightning round. I normally give people a little more warning than this, but I feel like you can handle it.

Speaker A: Cool. Ready? Okay, cool. Love it. I feel like I'm m on Jeopardy. I'm here for it. Yeah.

Speaker B: Okay. Question number one. What book, TV show, or movie would you recommend to our listeners?

Speaker A: Uh, Queer Eye. You know, I love the story of transformation. Um, I love how it can be fabulous to go from A to B. I think it just. It shows. Yeah, It's a reminder of, like, that capacity to be transformed. We all have the opportunity, if we open ourselves up to even a, uh, gaggle of gays. Ah, Down. To descend onto your doorstep. Really beautiful things can happen. And obviously, I cry so much during that show and it's just nice to watch things and get a good cry out and just be like, I believe in humanity. This is so beautiful.

Speaker B: Sometimes a good cry can actually be very cathartic.

Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker B: Who's a creative thinker you look up to?

Speaker A: Ooh. Well, I just went to, I was so lucky to go to her show. So I'm gonna say Lady Gaga because she is such an incredible performer. Um, but her music is really galvanizing and uniting. Like you go to a Gaga show and there's just like every kind of person that is like, that represents America is like there and watching and like celebrating and you know, I think sort of like Dolly Parton or Beyonce, like they kind of have the same effect. I think, uh, music is such a unifier. But I think she also, you know, she has her own foundation and she's using her platform to create more belonging and to, to get people to not flatten their perspective of people who are different from them, for instance, the queer community. And to instead know that there is rich individuality and I don't know, she's just very inspiring, very creative and. Yeah, what a reminder to wear nine inch heels. You know what I mean? Just here for it.

Speaker B: Yeah, Excellent. Uh, what's a skill you're currently working on?

Speaker A: Ooh. So I just moved to Santa Monica and I did grow up like doing a little bit of surfing back home in Hawaii. But I, I want to rekindle that connection. I'm very not great at it. So if anyone is in the LA area and wants to go surfing with me, I'm very open to that. Real invitation. Yeah. So I'm learning how to surf. It's really fun.

Speaker B: That's amazing. What's a skill you're proud of?

Speaker A: I am really proud of being able to drive a 25 foot van across the country. Like that is like, you know, like you're turning. That's. Yeah, no, that is no small feat. Um, and it's also been really beautiful to just like drive and like to get at, be at a stoplight and then someone like is like honking at me and like asking me to roll down the windows and I'm rolling down the windows and we're having this conversation. It's such a conversation starter. So I've just loved driving the Curiosity Mobile, like down the hollers of Appalachia, like, you know, down the interstates across the country. It's been, it's been a joy.

Speaker B: What's a mistake that you have learned from?

Speaker A: Oh my God. So Many, uh, one thing is just my practice. I wrote a book on curiosity, y', all, and I feel like I need to constantly be reminded to do it myself, especially with the people that I feel closest to, like my family. And I remember my partner, um, you know, came through the door, and he's a filmmaker, and he had just saw a really amazing set, and he was like, I just saw the most amazing set. And I replied by saying, that's so awesome. I love that for you. Like, that's so mean. I'm so glad you're, like, living your truth. And I thought I was, like, being so affirmative, and I was, in a way, but I wasn't being curious. And I had, like, cut the conversation off, like, much more prematurely than I should have. And instead, I should have said, like, why did you love it? And, like, where did you go? I don't even know where the set was. And, um, what is it going to be used for? Like, is this for your film project or a different film? You know, there was, like, so many things I should have said in that moment. And so I think that is, like, just a constant mistake I'm making to not. Not use the phrase, tell me more. Like, I preach to everyone else, but especially with people that I know very well, because I can do it so well with, like, strangers or new people or clients or, like, folks that I'm, like, establishing relationships with. But I think it is much harder for all of us, or, uh, at least for myself. I'll speak for myself, to do with people that I've already built a, uh, like, really beautiful relationship with. But they are constantly changing, and they also deserve my curiosity, too, so. So I will continue to work on that.

Speaker B: Well, I always say that we coach the things that we need to coach in ourselves, so that's not surprising. And if we were perfect, we're not perfect. That's okay. Uh, what's a philosophy you live by?

Speaker A: I believe that everyone's like, love is a verb, you know, but everyone's like, okay, but what's the verb? Like, how do you actually practice that? So I believe curiosity is the verb. I love the philosophy that curiosity is an act of love. So that when we turn towards someone, um, and we ask them questions and we are genuinely interested in them, and we want to know how they see the world and how they're experiencing it and what matters to them, that is actually us expressing our care and our love to this person that is in front of us. And I think that's a philosophy that's so so important to me. Uh, I am so grateful for my parents for modeling this. Like, I always used to be so annoyed as a young person. I'd be like, like, why is it taking so long just to get through the grocery store because you're talking to every single person or like, talking to the people on the bus. But now as an adult, I look back and I'm like, wow, I'm so grateful that I had like, approximate passenger seat view into the ways that my family were just so open hearted to the people that were around them, really got to know people who they did not know, um, who were sitting next to them on the bus and what new laughter and new conversations and new connections that that could bring. So that's definitely a really core philosophy. Philosophy for me.

Speaker B: That's so lovely. The last question that we ask every guest on this show. What advice would you give to your younger self?

Speaker A: M. Yeah, I got so, uh, afraid of visibility, especially as a kid that was in the closet and, you know, and I was really bullied relentlessly for my talents, my weird creative talents that I had in middle school. And that closed me off from sharing much of, like, who I am and, you know, what I'm doing in the world. Because I associated visibility as a threat. I associate it as a potential to put myself into danger. And I think what I've learned since then is that, uh, my visibility and me being authentic and proud about who I am and saying that there are so many different forms of leadership and just for me to be me in every space that I'm in is actually, it's an armor, but it's also a gift that I've given to so many other people who have said thank you for doing that. Like, you've given me permission to be more of myself. And I think I would tell my younger self, like, who you are is absolutely beautiful. It is, uh, exactly. Uniquely you. And. And I don't regret the journey of learning and coming to this realization that visibility is actually a superpower. But know that you should never be afraid or ashamed to share the parts of who you are, because that is what you are deserving of. And that can actually help a lot of the people that are around you, which I know is something that you want for the world. World.

Speaker B: What a lovely lesson for us all. Thank you so much for sharing that. I'm going to do a quick recap of some of the things I took away from this conversation. There's so much I actually know. I'm going to miss a lot of things Curious leadership is not a personality type. It's a set of behaviors that we can all learn and develop and flex in the right moments. The research backs this up that there's value to curiosity. Curious leaders are more trust in. They're thought of as being more competent in the eyes of their teams and more easily forgiven when they get it wrong. Knowing your curious leadership archetype isn't about putting yourself in a box. It's actually about having more options. The leaders who navigate uncertainty best aren't the ones who've mastered just one style. They're the ones who know when to stretch into a different style. Curiosity is also one of the few things that is both effortful but also energizing. But only if you treat it like a motivation muscle. You have to practice and recover because both of those two things matter. Scott, thank you so much for joining us today. This has just been one of those conversations that makes you want to go do something differently and I, I'm hoping that everybody who's listening feels the same way. This has just been a really joyful afternoon.

Speaker A: It has been so joyful. Yes. And thank you for this opportunity.

Speaker B: Where can they follow you? They can follow you on LinkedIn, on Instagram.

Speaker A: Yep. TikTok, YouTube. Um, you can go to my website scottshigeoka.com yeah, so many places.

Speaker B: Because it's still a journey. You're still on the road.

Speaker A: I'm still on the road.

Speaker B: So it's worth following.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: And to all of our listeners, make sure to subscribe to the Creative Confidence Podcast wherever you listen. If today's conversation made you want to go deeper, you can explore ido, use Foundations and Creative Leadership Certificate. It's a good place to start. It's practical learning led program that has helps give you the mindsets of a creative human centered leader. You can find it@idou.com Scott is also building a curious leadership quiz and toolkit. So definitely watch for how to get access to that through the IDOU newsletter. And if you want to practice curiosity in your daily life, Scott runs the Curiosity Club. It's a free newsletter and community@scottish yoga.com so it's worth signing up for that and definitely share your biggest takeaways on, um, LinkedIn and tag IDOU because we actually want to hear what landed for you. We as always look forward to seeing you next time on the Creative Confidence Podcast. Thanks everyone. Thanks so much for joining us. If you're enjoying the Creative Confidence podcast, be sure to follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen the best way you can support our show is by sharing it with others, so consider dropping a link in your team Slack channel or sending it to a friend who could use a little creative inspiration. We're so grateful for your support. The Creative Confidence Podcast is brought to you by ideo, the global design and innovation firm and the team at IDOU, the learning arm of IDO. IDOU's online courses give leaders the skills, mindsets and tools to create meaningful change. Our podcast team includes Rachel Youngblade, Alyssa Pagano, Erin Bogar, Ashley Dema, Joanna Oggenbergs, and Nya Harbin. To get invitations to live podcast recordings and hear about special offers, sign up for emails@idou.com thanks for listening and keep fueling your creative confidence. M.

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