Lessons from two Martech worlds: Asia and Europe through Teik Chua’s eyes

Speaker A: Hey Tech, uh, thank you for joining Couch Confidentials. It's uh, it's good to see you again. Uh, the last time we met was about a month and a half ago at the Martech World Forum. And after we got talking over a ah, beer or two, I was like I need to get you on the show because you had such a fascinating story to tell about your career. Uh, something that I've never been able to look into. And we'll uh, get into that in a second. But before we continue, can you kind of introduce yourself to the listeners and the viewers?

Speaker B: Sure. Uh, thanks for having me Matt. Uh, so I'm Tech, uh, Tech Troah. Um, I met uh, Matt in the uh, Martech World Forum a month and a half ago and uh, we really got along discussing about things or everything. ATAC and MarTech. And the reason for that is because I uh, started my career uh, uh, in the advertising space but really grew into the technology, uh, part of it uh, as I, as I progressed. So uh, I come from a, I come from um, a uh, a two country background. Right. So I was, I was born in the uk but I was raised in Malaysia. And because of that I wanted to see my professional career reflect that uh, personal aspect of me as well. So having worked in the uk, started my, my career here. Uh, I wanted to take that over to Asia to see how that, how that was uh, a reflection of uh, me but how uh, it reflected uh, basically the same role I did over there. I wanted to see what the differences were. Right. The world is so much bigger than just uh, the one country that yeah, um, that we're in. So because of that, um, uh, I actually transferred with a uh, consulting company. So I worked four years uh, at Accenture in London before doing two uh, and a half years in uh, in Southeast Asia etc. So uh, that was the great thing about these big companies as well is that there are a lot of these schemes actually uh, available to people to transfer. So I took advantage of that. Uh, yeah, I mean it's not just, not just those global companies as well. So where I've ended up now at Virgin Media to brand, uh side, even though they're very much a UK company, they also have um, uh, relocation packages, should I say, uh, to help support. Oh really bringing in talent from. Yeah. So even though they don't have offices around the world, uh, we have a larger, predominantly a uk, uh UK based entity. Uh, they still have packages to get talent into the company, into the one country. But Accenture being The other side of that, where they have, you know, 70 plus offices in cross 70 plus countries of the world. I mean hundreds of offices across 70 countries as well. That one, uh, yeah, they were very open and very supportive in terms of me moving back because to challenge myself professionally. But also they understood that the family aspect, it was a part of my life that I wanted to be close to home.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's pretty cool. Because I think one of the topics that we got talking around was of course cdp. I think we attended a roundtable first around customer data platforms. It was sponsored by uh, Ziotap. And that was uh, um, really I got to listen to you. I got to hear about how logical your thinking is around CDPs and the experience that you brought to the table. So that was phenomenal. So afterwards we met up for a beer and you started talking about the experience you had in Southeast Asia. And it's something that I, um, had um, been working on. I've been doing some research about customer uh, data platforms or martech in general in emerging markets. But I think I'm misrepresenting that whole research now because Southeast Asia is not necessarily an emerging market. It's quite advanced, but they use different tools, the culture is different and is it isolated in a sense? I mean, what were your. I know that we've already discussed uh, some of this, but what were your experiences compared to uh, working here now in the uk?

Speaker B: Yeah, so there was a range of differences across different aspects of works, should I say. So for example, specifically CDPs and technology, there were a different type of dominance, uh, of platforms over there. But also in terms of the way, um, of ways of working as well, like the people and process side, uh, uh, uh, there's differences there. So if I start for example just uh, within the core CDP space, uh, what I noticed is there are a lot more Challenger brands within uh, the European market compared to uh, Southeast Asia. So I find as a whole we take a step back from CDPs as well. If CDPs. If you think about it fitting more into like the digital marketing space, uh, I would say, uh, Southeast Asia is slightly behind uh, Europe in that regard. So there's still a lot of CDP implementation projects. There's still a lot of people moving from CPU, DNPs, the CDPs in Southeast Asia, even this year. The difference in Europe is that we did this uh, several years ago. Right. So there is a slight lag, uh, behind.

Speaker A: Driven a lot by regulation, I think we. You mentioned as well, correct?

Speaker B: Yes. So European, we were forced to make the move. Whereas in Asia there was uh, there's a bit more leeway to, to play in that space saying all that they are advanced, they are more advanced in certain areas. Like I would say commerce, uh, so a lot more, I would say phone usage, a lot more online shopping, uh, that kind of infrastructure is a lot more further over there. So whether that's expanding into social commerce or any of these new forms of uh, um, sales. Our consulting work there I feel is a lot more progressive, a lot more further ahead than Europe. So there's pros and cons of both sides. And then we dive into CDPs itself, uh, because I would say they are, they're catching up with like for example Europe, potentially America, Uh, a lot of those companies are making the first moves. There are the ones that are choosing those established players. So the ones who already, uh, going into that space already have the wider tech ecosystem. So whether that's Salesforce, uh, or Adobe in particular, it's a lot, it's a lot easier sell to, to add that on, to take a big risk and to go out with a challenger brand. Uh, I haven't seen that too much in that region yet.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's uh, interesting because um, we have seen CDP's like Mero pop up. Uh, I think they've been especially active around Singapore, um, but it's still. So what you're kind of describing is what I've also seen in research, uh, that I've done around the Middle east where the gardeners, the foresters, they kind of lead in influencing uh, the big businesses and what they should uh, implement as a CDP is concerned. Uh, I don't want to uh, talk about it, to what capacity Accenture plays a role in that, uh, as a huge consultancy. But when you look at companies who do not depend on large consultancy agencies, is it kind of the same trend there? Are they also leaning more towards the salesforces, adobes, etc.

Speaker B: So that one you do see, um, uh, some of the more niche or challenger brands coming in. Uh, so I was very much speaking from um, large enterprise, uh, brand kind of consulting with uh, with my experience. But what I would say in that space, yes there are. We've also been pitched and spoken to a few players. Uh, for example there's one regional one there called Insider, which is also uh, in a lot of RFPs, uh, working with, trying to, trying to get their foot in. But I feel from these large consultancies where you speak about in general not just Accenture, uh, but uh, I'VE spoken to my colleagues around in Deloitte, etc. Capgemini, uh these kind of big consultancies. We have very large uh, partnerships uh in place which also um, uh assists both sides in terms of working together to establish this cdp. Especially for large enterprise companies which require uh, uh, a specific in depth skill in these uh, large products or large suites. Uh that's the reason why I think we go to market with a lot of uh, these partners in this space and the client sees the benefit as well from.

Speaker A: Yeah. And is it also a kind of a case of maturity? I mean uh, as you said that Southeast Asia is kind of leading in certain aspects around marketing technology, especially around commerce. Um and then uh, Europe is leading on something else. But some of the trends that I've been seeing especially here in Europe and uh, not necessarily the North American market, but especially here in Europe is that a lot of companies are leaning towards more all in solutions. I mean the debate's probably as old as myself right now about composable or not. Um, but what I've been seeing now is still this tendency to, to work with customer engagement platforms. How is that perceived in Southeast Asia? I mean I think um, when you described it at uh, Martech World Forum is that you operated from within Malaysia but then you were sent out to these kind of local offices to talk to the local teams and enabling them. Is it kind of the further you get outside of Malaysia out of that enterprise field all these trends seem to change.

Speaker B: Um there are definitely local market nuances for sure. Uh the whole way we are set up, uh, the whole way like uh, the region is set up. It is very much in more interdependent than I would say Europe is. So Europe has a lot of core talent, strong talent within each of its uh, uh core countries and core markets and then they tend to be self sufficient. Um in, in Southeast Asia it's, it's very much uh. Because. Because of the cost differences as well uh of. Of employing people in different regions. There's very much uh. We don't, we don't call them offshore, we call them near shore because they, they are very much our near colleagues. Uh but there is an element of certain type of work will be done from like for example the Singapore hub. But then uh, a lot of the potentially execution or delivery would be done uh on the ground in the actual local market and where needed the, the leadership, uh, there would be leadership across all countries. Don't get me wrong there. But a lot of the strategic thinking as well, uh uh, you'll just find out if you look at our headcount, for example in Singapore, uh, it's very top heavy. It's like an inverted pyramid. Whereas if you look at the other countries it's very much more natural. And uh, what you, you'd find in most like Europe as well, uh, just your natural pyramid where there's one or two senior leaders and a bigger base. But because of that inverter pyramid in Singapore and the reason to get that profitable and get that and be able to sustain that, a lot of these resources, uh, these more senior ones fly out to these local regions and provide their expertise uh, as well. Uh, and through that they also get a view across multiple countries. So the booming ones, uh, I think for m all consultancies in Southeast Asia at the moment they're looking at for example Indonesia and Thailand. When I actually inquired to go to Southeast Asia they actually asked me would I be open to Thailand or Indonesia first. So it's very much there. They're trying to put people there at the moment. Um, and then we have the other key ones for us as well was uh, Malaysia and Singapore. Um, but the boom market, the boom, the ones that really bring in the money at the moment are Indonesia, Thailand. But because of our expertise working across all four and some other ones, some m satellite ones where we have different kind of operations like I would say like Philippines etc. Um, those core four ones allow us to share and learn from each other and see, see what works in the region.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's pretty interesting. I mean I, I'm just trying to imagine in Thailand and in Indonesia. Are you, I mean I, I, I don't, I'm not expecting you to know but are there any kind of like local players there that just have, have set up their, they, they've listened to the market that there's this deed for something like a customer data platform or engagement platform and they start working on a local solution. I can imagine that there is but it's just um, what I've been seeing is like this um, rising maturity level among SMBs, uh, and more mature people coming in. I think even AI is a good example of that. Somebody um, yesterday told me a ah, company from England, they just recruited someone straight out of university who has been, you know, who's grown up digitally who is so native with working uh, with the uh, uh with everything around marketing technology and even AI at the point straight out of school that they've become so productive. So I can imagine like if you go to Indonesia, which I know. Has incredible. I think uh, I think it was. You told me that their population was 40 million.

Speaker B: No way more than that. Uh, it's the third most populous uh, country in the world after China and India.

Speaker A: Oh my goodness. Okay, so I remember, sorry, Indonesia. I think it's just on one island alone then probably. But it's uh, uh, so I can imagine that they, they've got local players as well. But uh, regardless of the technology. You also told me some, some interesting stories and kind of anecdotes around um, the culture there. I mean here. Ah, I remember when I got out of the military and I got my first job, I was, I was telling to, I was, you know, interacting with my boss and I kept on calling him sir and after like three times he said no, no, no, no, we don't do that here. It's just, you know, call me by my first name. Um, I just can't imagine how that goes. I've done work in the Middle east where I know that that hierarchy plays an important role all but not necessarily for uh, from the business aspect but also out of respect. How was that happening? You came from the uk, um, you moved there. How different was that for you in terms of dealing with customers and dealing with colleagues?

Speaker B: So I'll start on the colleague side, uh, so internally before we reach out. Yeah, um, the great thing about,

Speaker A: about

Speaker B: the way that it was structured over there is especially because I was based in Singapore and I said it was uh, inverted permanent leadership and just the very scale of it is a lot smaller than for example we're talking versus uh, the UK and because the scale is a lot smaller, um, uh, and the team's a lot smaller, uh, you do have a lot more interactions uh, across the, the vertical spectrum. So you do get a lot more leadership, uh time. You do work with a lot more uh, junior people in a day to day basis. Uh, whereas in the uk because just the scale there's just so many people, you tend to operate one up, one down, right. And then they would then interact one up, one down. Um, whereas in Southeast Asia because the teams were so lean and agile, uh, you would have the full spectrum within, within a pod. Uh, so that was nice. And that was so that, that you learn a lot from, from people who.

Speaker A: Did you experience a bit of culture shock in that sense as well or.

Speaker B: So the culture shock was less because they were, they're a lot more senior. Uh, the culture shock was more than on the other side in terms of how. Just the nuances of uh, how People work there, uh, versus in the uk. So one example I like to use, uh, is rather than the example, I'll just say they're a lot more direct. So, uh, when something doesn't go wrong, when something goes wrong, which it always does in both regions of the world, uh, in the uk it's very much going around the subject. It's more like, so, you know, so how, um, how did this happen? Uh, what can we do to make sure this doesn't happen? Again, uh, very indirect. Whereas in, in Singapore it was very much, uh.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So who did this? Uh, why did you, why did you, why did you make a mistake here? You know, it's very much the, there's pros and cons of that. Obviously from the social aspect, there's a bit, you have to be bit more thicker skin. But in terms of actually then resolving problems, uh, some would argue, and I've seen it as well, that it sometimes cuts the chase a lot, a lot easier. You learn from the mistake, you don't feel like you can hide, or when you've done something wrong, you confront it head on and then you move on. So there's pros and cons of that aspect of, uh, the internal workplace as well. I would say then from the external side, um, yeah, working with brands, um, that, uh, that again I found, I found over there because potentially because of, uh, I wouldn't say the scale of the companies, but maybe because internally we're working with a lot more senior leaders. Uh, we are at my level. So for some manager level, I got to interact with a lot more senior, uh, clients on the brand side. Uh, because when we went for pitch, for example, uh, we would have the senior leaders in our room that um, would, would, would welcome us in as part of the conversation or part of that specific, um, discussion. Uh, and so the, the, the reflection on, on the brand side as well, their equivalent, their peers would appear there. So that kind of, so that, that verticality, I could see what you're saying. Like for example, from the Middle east, there's a lot of hierarchy. There is. Within Asia as well, there's a lot of hierarchy. But I would say in the professional workplace like this, because of our size, even though we are one of the biggest companies, um, in the world, because of the specific regions set up, uh, that those uh, those boundaries, those floors and ceilings, uh, were a lot more transparent. So because of that on the brand side as well, I also got to interact with a lot more senior clients than I think I would have in the uk. Uh, in the UK as well, I would be told, like landmark, uh, a few levels down, for example. Then for example C suite.

Speaker A: Interesting. I mean the biggest burning question I have now, I mean I, I, I find it super interesting that you went to uh, Malaysia for two and a half years and you came back Singapore.

Speaker B: Uh, Singapore.

Speaker A: I just. Oh, sorry, Singapore, yeah. Um, God, I'm, I'm stepping a lot of toes here from people from Southeast Asia, uh, to Singapore. So you went there kind of with a British mindset and uh, from what I understood from you talking about you, you adapted really quickly. But after two and a half years of living um, in Singapore and interacting with companies and leadership, uh, um, in that area, how was your experience coming back to the uk? Did you that directness, for example? I know being Dutch, Dutch we are always very direct and it's one quite often the things, you know, kind of the comments we hear the most from, from tourists is like, wow, you know, you don't, you go, you know, you don't beat around the bush, you comes in sliding with an extended leg at sometimes it's a Dutch expression. But um, did you bring anything back from Singapore to uh, to the uk Any kind of positive experience? Or did you try being more direct in some cases when you thought it could be more beneficial?

Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. I think I picked up, I picked up a lot of resilience and being like for example, thick skinned, um, uh, and realizing a lot of it, basically all of it is, it's not personal. Right?

Speaker A: It's business. Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I think that's one of the biggest lessons I've ever learned is that if you get uh, if you do get critiqued, it's often about you and your position, your role and not you as a person. Sorry, I interrupted.

Speaker B: Uh, no, no, I, I, and it's a fascinating point because so all of that, all of that directness, I think there's, there's a balance of it to, to play off which, which I brought back. So I, I would say that when, when, when working with like a lot of my colleagues in Singapore, we'd get to the solution a lot quicker. Uh, uh, uh, uh, break down the, the problem. Uh, because especially if there's a people problem, you address it just head on or whatever properly just address it head on. The difference then I would say between that approach that was on the, I felt on the short term it may have been more uh, efficient but in the longer term, the reason, I'm also part of the reason I came back to the uk Was because uh, I created a lot more um, long standing uh, relationships with my ex colleagues, uh, both on the internal, on the brand side. So the reason for that is because I think by not addressing it head on and building that kind of, I don't know how to articulate this well but uh, what I'm trying to say is, is by not being so direct as well, you're breathing an element of personal into it rather than just business. So as we said before, you know, it's just business, not personal. But the thing is I feel in the UK a lot of it, especially after you work with people, it's true in Asia as well. But because I was in the UK a lot longer, after certain amount of time the personal does bleed into the business side. And because of that uh, by not being that direct you build that personal relationship a lot easier. And from that there's also other opportunities. Um, so I feel like for example even though I was in the room with a lot more senior people on, in, in the, on the Asia side it was purely business. They we wouldn't go for a drink after, go for dinner after. Whereas in the UK it's very much uh, a thing of getting to know you as well. Not just, yeah, not just on business.

Speaker A: Is it, is it maybe the word empathy that you're looking for that there's a lot more empathy. And I um, mean I agree there's definitely value in being and dealing direct. If a sit benefits from direct action, direct interaction, I should say, um, it should definitely be applied. But uh, I agree to a certain extent that um, having empathy for your colleagues and with that I'm trying to mean who are these people? What's their home situation like? Uh, uh, what are their interests around the professional level? So that when something does happen you have a better, in a better position to actually put yourself in their shoes and maybe understand why they did certain things. It's uh, clearly from the way that I'm describing and I did not study psychology but I, I, yeah I, I, I think we're on the same level. I remember that when I was um, um I went to the military when I was 17 and I'd always kind of grown up um, in most, most of it in Western Europe. There were two years that I spent outside of it and I uh, remember going to the United States where I joined the US Navy and I found that ah, you know, I was very open, very kind of liberal thinking, wanting to make friends with everyone. But I quickly noticed that that is just not the way it Works there. And I uh, have to say that that's why I asked the question in the beginning around culture shock, because it. You start to doubt yourself as like wow, am I that much of an alien in this kind of uh, um, uh, in this system? But yeah, I think on a professional level I uh, do prefer, I can appreciate the directness. But like you said, it's always good to know who you're working with and talking about that, I mean you did consultancy but now you're working brand side again. And um, I think I've done it the other way around. So I'm super curious to hear, I mean, what were the motivations, um, of uh, doing that? Uh, you bring a lot of experience to the table. I think that is definitely in your favor. But it's uh, you get to stick with one brand now.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. I spent um, you see the first decade of my professional career consultancy or agency side and what was great about that was that I got great visibility across numerous clients, uh, back to back. Right. So it was an accelerated learning curve of seeing how different people from different, different companies from different industries operate.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: But after a certain amount of time I felt like um, I wanted to build something for the longer term. So not to say that our engagements are uh, for the short term, but there is obviously you do change team, change company, change projects, uh, on a regular basis. Whereas uh, on the brand side I wanted to take it to ownership of an area, take ownership of the team and really see that through in the long run, uh, how that grows. Uh, so I think it naturally evolves with my like age as well that I'm in this part of my life now where I want to settle down, put down some roots, uh, rather than changing country all the time.

Speaker A: Moving.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Place. So again it's ah, that, that, that personal position in life is very much, um, um, very much where I am at. Business, uh, wise as well. Business, Business ah, minded.

Speaker A: So yeah, one is reflecting the other.

Speaker B: Yes. Uh, so because of that, that was the main reason. Living brand. Yeah.

Speaker A: Okay. And I mean, so let's paint us a picture. Ah, you spent quite a few years in consultancy, switching companies, switching projects, switching uh, stakeholders that you were dealing with. Uh, how does it feel now to. Is there a kind of a different sense of uh, ease or of rest that you now have the kind of the time to a certain extent to really put uh, your energy into something and being able to see it grow. I think that's uh, one of the main reasons I could understand a Moving brand side is really, um, going in more in depth in what you're doing.

Speaker B: Yeah, I feel like now it's um. You see, in consulting everything would be bounded to the statement of work, uh, or the contract. And there's payment milestones, um, scattered within. Right. So by a certain date you have to hit a certain, A uh, certain position to get paid. So the difference being on the brand side is there are okrs, there are certain, um, like sticks, uh, in the road, uh, signposts as well. Yeah.

Speaker A: The responsibilities are still there.

Speaker B: Yes. But at the same time, if we get there and we're not quite ready, uh, there's a willingness, uh, from, from the business as well. No, I'm not. This is a very blanket statement. But for. From the cases I've seen, um, it's a push that out to make sure we get the right solution before we move to the next stage. Whereas in consulting it's you just suffer, you start, you start hurting monetarily, fiscally, that if you miss that uh, milestone. So there is not. We get it right. We. Maybe it took us like four, four weeks to do the design. For example, uh, if within the last week, the last few days, we are not quite there, it's then everybody working 247 to ensure we still get there within those last few days. Right. Whereas, um, Brad side, you might just kick it back, uh, one week. And just so you ensure you get the right answer, both sides will. But just in consulting there is a lot more time pressure to get it.

Speaker A: Yeah, there's been a lot of a, uh, lot of critique on um, that way of working. I think it's called the nine, six, six method or something. Nine to six for six days. Six days a week. Um, is that, is that kind of. Ah, well, by the sounds of it, that's what you're describing. You know, if you're, if you're not hitting your deadline, um, it's, you know, it's all hands on deck 247 to, to make sure that you reach that milestone within the project. I mean, is that kind of a breath of fresh air right now that uh. And I want to uh, make clear that there's still, uh, responsibilities. There's still, um. What's the word I'm looking for? Uh, you know, accountability working, uh, brand side. But it's just different. Like I said, it comes more uh, from the uh, empathy side of things that you are more interdependent working together. Um, um. Yeah, but how, how have you experienced that so far? And, and I mean, how Is it, has it been more pleasurable, uh, working brand side right now? Um, um. Well let me, let m. Me put it another way. I, I can imagine if you work for a consultancy things move fast and that can definitely be a real dopamine kick. Do you feel like with working brand size things can tend to go too slow?

Speaker B: They can do, they can do. But again speaking from. Because I'm, I'm new to brand side, um and I can see so many colleagues on their projects that they started years ago moving at pace as well. Uh, just maybe because um, I've just started. I'm very much in trying to figure out my base, my vision and where I want to bring my team. Uh, so within that regard, yes, a lot of it is at the moment getting the approvals etc. Getting the buy ins from different teams to that common vision that I'm um, trying to build. Um, and because of that there's, there's a lot of working through the um, the pain points, the problems very much like what you would do consultancy side, pre contract, pre uh, pre project. Right. So sorry in the contracting phase. So I feel like I'm very much there now and once we get that sign off and that alignment of all the teams of b, uh business units I feel then that the pace will kick off because then with the alignment there's also a promise.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Teams are no longer. Teams are all then expecting something and I believe then, then they very much so Maybe it's just where I am in, in my career brand side that I've just started that we are in that kind of phase. But I'm sure once, once uh, we promise that uh. Okay. Uh, um. Yeah, the accountability and moving that, that that milestone out uh, would be looked less painfully on.

Speaker A: Yeah. And what kind of knowledge or experiences are you bringing to virgin uh, media O2? I mean uh, we spoke at the beginning that you've worked or got experience in AdTech and MarTech and um, CDPs are definitely uh, a part of your uh, kind of your daily playbook. What is it um, that really gets you up in the morning, ah, looking at what you're doing now, is it uh. I love for instance to follow all the um, uh developments around customer data in general. This whole AI thing. Is that the kind of the knowledge that you're bringing into virgin uh media O2 right now?

Speaker B: Yeah. So this um, one side I got to work very closely with in uh, Singapore was the data side and um, specifically around marketing data. So there are a lot of concepts a Lot of like uh, packaged products that, that, that he went to market with that did very well over there. That's one thing I'm trying to bring in house here as well is one universal problem we, we tend to see. Uh, including what we see at virtual media too is building uh data for use cases and for campaigns. So the problem with that approach call uh, that uh, bottoms up, uh, sorry top down driven by um, use case of business is that almost every time uh, we'd have to go back to the data team and go to a backlog or sprint to get that data attribute to go live. The reverse thinking or the thinking that can go hand in hand with that because there'll always be prioritization. Uh and business needs is start to build a foundational base of marketing customer um uh data attributes. Right? So with every customer there should be a predefined. We uh, call it a marketing customer analytical record where should cover those data points should uh, cover 90% of the campaigns you're going to run. So actually only one in ten campaigns should be going through a uh data development life cycle. The problem is it does take an upfront investment, upfront work to get that foundational base there. Uh because from what I can see from a lot consulting side and VMOT side a lot of those data attributes for marketing are built on that needs basis. So because of that you know the, you don't have that foundational base to draw from. So that's something that I really, I really want to take ownership of and start building out. Uh because that record is all for AI in the future it starts to become a very, very structured, very um, uh consistent uniform view of customers. Right. Not just uh, you have everything, your customer profile in a data set there that can be used for, for whatever reason.

Speaker A: Who do you involve with this process to uh, define I think mcar if we want to do an acronym, the Marketing customer Automation. Ah, record or no automation Record Analyst Record. Who do you analytical records. Sorry, I'll need to write that down. Um, who do you involve in a project like that? Um, as we've seen with the Martech World Forum, it's that a lot of people uh, underestimate the um, the levels of different skills needed to get things right. I mean what, what's your vision around that?

Speaker B: So I'm very much of the opinion that it should be business driven so that MCAR shouldn't, we shouldn't start from a base of uh, what data do we have uh and then build out a customer record from the data that we have I very much from the view that there's a, there's a right, there's a right view from uh, from being from a telco business of what a marketing record should look like for us. For example consistent across industries. You'll have your demographic, uh, uh, data attributes, uh gender, location, first name, last name. But for example specific to telco I would have um within broadband like uh the speeds, the number of products, the number of uh extension modules. I have meshes all this. So there are some things that are quite, we should know up front from the business side. Forget the data side for now. So once we have that is then very much going back to the data team and to start developing this what we what? Yeah, it's all in layers. So regardless of how people call it uh bronze, Silver, Gold, Tier 1, 2, 3. You know within the data warehouse um, you'll find a lot of these data sets in the business ready layer. This um, presentation layer that we can draw from and build very quickly. But then there's a level behind that where it does exist within the data warehouse but needs some processing sometimes. Uh so again you start, start with the easy ones to start moving backwards and then there's going to be some where for example in telco um there'll be a core like viewing data or browsing. Browsing, Browsing uh data. Right. Uh those are our core data sets and they're being captured not by a marketing stack or anything they captured by core systems us you know or mobile data usage. Those are core, core platforms just like in banking, like credit card transaction uh platforms um they may not be in, in the data warehouse uh at the moment they may be just captured uh or rarely in a very raw format in those regard in those kind of data points then there's a lot of um work that needs to be done to, to bring that into a marketing ready uh attribute. So yeah it's all layered really that uh, even if it's not there in for example the data warehouse we as a business capture browsing behavior. Banking as a business captures car transaction deposit outflows, inflows. You can't Even though there's an inclusive data warehouse. These are core, core functions of what we do as a telco or packing industry. Because of that the data is there um, it may not be accessible but there's work that can be done to bring that in and that may cost money, effort etc. Time. But uh, that's why I feel like you start from the business end and then work backwards. The Data availability is a separate question, a separate challenge. After you know what your customer record

Speaker A: looks like and the reason from working backwards that doesn't mean that you uh, stop working on with the data that you already have. You start with the enrichment from backwards forwards. I think that's, is that where you're getting at?

Speaker B: Uh, it's more, it's different for. I've seen this, it's different for different businesses here. It's very, the data landscape and uh, what is available to each. I guess what I'm saying from my specific vantage point now at the MO2 is that there's some data more readily available than others and because of that we should start building that into a record today rather than this uh, needs based attribute by attribute where it's just a floater of different attributes for individual campaigns. By building that record, uh then we just draw from that uh, I start filling in. So then you know you're 20% complete, then you move to 40% complete and what's you know, every, every percentage extra maybe to get from like for example 80 to 90% complete. It's going to cost time and money. But for us now to get from like 0 to 50% of the record should be easy.

Speaker A: And how do you sell that internally though? I mean I can imagine that uh, especially in the beginning it's a tough sell because the return on uh, on the data that people, you know, that you have or that people will be delivering or helping you make um more complete is going to be uh, difficult to prove. But how do you sell that internally? Is that something you need to do with uh, with buy in or support from higher up?

Speaker B: So from different places there's some where leadership. I've asked the question where they've, they've already had a CDP or they've had uh, a uh, they've been issuing campaigns out like advanced campaigns for four years. And after a certain amount of time leadership also goes why if I think of this campaign I have to wait two weeks, a month, two months to go live? Right. The whole point we thought of buying a cdp, buying an advanced uh cep, uh is to be able to drag and drop into, to go live straight away. But what they're realizing then is that reliance on the data, uh availability, the data attribute. So they themselves sometimes leadership recognizes the fact that we can't just be building as we go along. We need that upfront investment, building that, that base. So sometimes you get top down, uh, steer to go that way. The reverse is um, uh is, is the bottoms up is, is, is then going for the easy wins. Uh, so like I said, a lot of the data is there today in different tables in the presentation layer, uh, in like our gold, gold silo data warehouse. We just need to collaborate that into that multi customer that doesn't require a lot of work. Once we show that and we can show 50% of the picture, people go oh wow. We actually have quite good understanding of these core 50 attributes of a record. Right. Then they, they say so what, what do we need to get to the other 50? So that's very much my strategy going from a bottoms up. If you don't have leadership, buy in on this. It's more yeah. Show you how strong uh building that record can be versus um, ah and then asking for the rest rather than going for all of it at once.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, definitely true and I think it's definitely one of more. The convincing arguments that you can have is being able to prove that value. But also uh, and it also takes a certain level of um, self confidence to also admit saying hey, but it is only 50% and uh, we need your support to moving uh, faster uh, to completing this data uh, tech. Thank you very much. I see that we're out of time but uh, thank you very much for your, for your time today and your insights. I mean it's great to hear about your experience in Southeast Asia, what you brought back and now that you're working France side, I hope you get to invest all of your knowledge and your time and your energy into uh, doing something amazing and hopefully we'll see you on stage next year or the year after, uh, showing the uh, projects uh, that you've worked on over at Virgin, uh, Media too.

Speaker B: Thank you for having me and it was great. Yeah, great meeting you then. I'm sure we'll speak again soon.