Why Europe wants its own CDPs - ZEOTAP CEO Elad Simon explains

Speaker A: Whereas the more traditional companies that like their engineering, let's say muscle is not as developed, they would go for a more of a package like SaaS solution, which I think so, like that's a clear, very clear differentiation we're seeing in the market. I would say intuitively that the digital natives do not buy a lot of uh, like a Salesforce. Like they just, it's not their style. Like they, they would try to go more for the more innovative solutions in the market. Right. So which is not, you know, Salesforce Marketing Cloud or Adobe Engage or Target or all these things. Right. So like there's nicer, you know, whether it's air shaped, I don't know, I

Speaker B: don't know if I can say. But they're, they're, they're like the vegans.

Speaker A: Wow, that's like you, you dug yourself a big hole now.

Speaker B: I know, I know. And kind of the Salesforce and Adobes are more the pre processed or highly processed foods. And uh, you go from purist to.

Speaker A: I am not saying, I'm not saying anything right now. Okay. This analogy is.

Speaker B: No, no, no, no.

Speaker A: It's 100% yours.

Speaker B: I'm owning this one. Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Couch Confidential. Today I have someone special with me. His name is Elod Simon. He is the CEO, or should I say Z E O of Ziotap. Elod. Uh, super welcome to the, to the episode. I'm super curious to hear more about Ziotab in general, but can you introduce yourself to the, to the listeners?

Speaker A: Sure. First of all, thank you for the kind words and thanks for the new title of Zeo. I've never. Yeah, I know I would have. You would have assumed that it would have been a running joke, but I've never had that before. So you're like, you're like the first person who suggested that, so I'll claim that one. So please, yeah, that's yours. I mean if we ever trademark it, it's uh, it's under your name. Okay. Just so you know. Um, so yeah, I'm allowed. I'm my. He's very historical background is in consulting. But I found very quickly that I'm not built for consulting because I like, I like to do stuff. Sorry, sorry, all consultants listening to this, but.

Speaker B: Oh, forgive you.

Speaker A: I felt difficult for the execution part. Right. I was yearning for execution. And then I joined the uh, Barclays for about four years, uh, kind of financial services in London being like mostly in strategy and operations roles and then in a very abrupt shift moved into the Advertising world. I joined Google, um, in about. When was it. Actually it was uh, 2000 and I guess 2012, something like that. And uh, been with Google for about five years, leading their efforts when it comes to bringing in customers into the then AdWords, now Google Ads platform. So, um, you're an very interesting European role. And then joined Taboola, led their SMB business, built and led their SMB business globally, then had a stint as a founder in a company called Craft I.O. where I. It was a company in the product management space. Completely different. It was part of my uh, general midlife crisis of, you know, like, you know, I, I've done, I've done big corporates, I've done like, let's say scale ups. Now it's time to do, like, now it's time to do a startup. Um, and I, and that was my kind of like going into the world of startups fully as a CEO. Been there for five years, um, in the product management space and then now coming back to the Martech ad tech advertising worlds with uh, with Ziotop. So that's kind of.

Speaker B: Yeah, because you, I mean, it's a huge variation. I mean you did advertising, you did growth, you did products, you did consulting. But we'll forget about that because, you know, let's focus on the building stuff. How did you, how did you stumble upon Zio Tap? Because you started out as the CEO for a few months and then you rolled into the position of CEO.

Speaker A: Indeed. So, I mean, basically in a funny turn of events, the chairman of the company, I was a founder before, also became at some point the chairman of Ziotab. And so, uh, you know, in the. So we knew each other for a long time. We've been working together for a long time. And then when the opportunity came to join Ziotrap, I met with Daniel and Prajol, who are the founders. Um, and I really like them. I like the space. I thought it was an interesting opportunity, it was an exciting, exciting company and exciting point to join. And so I joined and then uh, we decided at some point to change, uh, roles and basically shifting into the CEO role. Um, probably about four months after I joined. Um, so that's kind of like, that's the, that's the history behind it. So, so it's a.

Speaker B: That's pretty impressive. You'll need to teach me that trick.

Speaker A: Sure. Uh, all you need to know is know somebody who moves somewhere else.

Speaker B: That's it. That's it. It's not what you know, but who you know. And in a Lot of cases. It's something my mother has been telling me for years. But, uh, before we move into Ziotep, I have to ask this one question. Not because I'm a big soccer fan, but is it a prerequisite to be a Bayern Munich fan if we, if, uh, we want to work for Zio Tab?

Speaker A: You have to say that you're a Bayern Munich fan. Uh, you don't actually have to be one, but you have to say it right. So on a serious note, Bayern Munich is probably one of our most known customer, at least from, as a global brand, let's say this way.

Speaker B: Absolutely, yeah.

Speaker A: And we, I mean, we love them and we, I mean we were in New Mexico a couple of weeks, I guess, presenting together with them. So like we're, we're in a very good relationship with Bayern Munich. And so. Yes, absolutely. We have to, you have to at least have, uh, an affinity towards the club.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, no, I can understand, but it's something that I've underestimated for a lot of years. I've seen, I think about two or three other cases where CDP is working with football or soccer, depending where you are in the world with these clubs, because you really underestimate the reach that they have. It's not just local, it's not even just regional or national. But these, a lot of these top tier clubs are international. They've got fans and everything around the world.

Speaker A: They are completely, completely, completely global companies. Um, I mean, companies is a funny word for them because, you know, I, I spoke to them to quite a few people there, and it's, it's really is a passion project. It's, it really is a passion business. Right. So it's, it is a little bit different than your standard business. Um, because, you know, there's so much emotions and enthusiasm about it. So it's kind of difficult to be without that in that kind of business. Uh, but yeah, absolutely. I mean, from a fan base perspective, and that's kind of like one of the use cases that we work with them on. It's like, it's a super interesting, international, completely international fan base. I mean, we even developed the specific use cases with them, etc. And we even actually sponsor, we're a sponsor on their basketball team as well, which allows us to actually go and like, you know, enjoy with customers and sometimes with the, uh, people, but we want to be our customers in like in Bayern Munich basketball, uh, courts, which is, I'm, I really probably shouldn't say this, but I'm more of a Basketball person than, than a football person or a soccer person. And this is like, I know it's a wrong thing to say in many ways.

Speaker B: Well, we'll bleep that out, but.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Can you please erase that in the, in recording? And so for me that's like super exciting on its own. Right. So I'm actually going, I think the week after next, I'm going to Munich to uh, to watch Bayern Munich against Bologna, which.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Which will be very cool.

Speaker B: Even European basketball is underrated. I don't know what it is with all this.

Speaker A: Well, Germany is the world champion and European champion now, so I mean, are

Speaker B: they the world champion as well? I thought that was always like, you know, it's, it's usually given to the U.S. yeah.

Speaker A: No, no, no. Clearly you're a basketball fan.

Speaker B: No, no, no, I'm a rugby fan. I'm a rugby fan. It's uh, I see. But it's.

Speaker A: So let's, so let's, so let's never. So let's never talk about that. Okay. Because I know.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I know nothing like literally nothing about rugby. Okay. Like not even I know how the world is shaped. And that's it.

Speaker B: Well, let's talk this. Let's talk about something that we do know.

Speaker A: Conferences. Ah.

Speaker B: Like I mentioned, I wanted to talk about Zia tab next. But you mentioned D. Mexico and it is something that is on my list to go.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Was this your first time going to the Mexico?

Speaker A: It was the first time going to New Mexico, which is kind of funny because I was always supposed to go to the Mexico in tabula. Specifically in tabula. I was supposed to, I really was supposed to go. And I always kind of. I don't know why, but kind of ended up not going for some reason. Always invited. Um, and this is the first time I go to New Mexico and it's been. I have to say it's actually cool. I mean I can say that about every, every.

Speaker B: Well, saying to Mexico is cool. It's like telling my wife Star wars is cool. You know, some people will get it, other people's won't.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: So it'.

Speaker A: No, no, but it is a very one. It's a very big conference. I mean to state the very obvious, right? So there's a lot of, there's a lot of vendors there, there's a lot of uh, like clients there, et cetera. It was a, like an amazing opportunity for me, for me personally to meet a lot of uh, our clients on a face to face basis. Right. So like, that's something that I. I get very excited about. And so, like, that was like, just like, you know, in one week I could have m. Met. You know, I met like five or six customers in one go, which was like. Which was absolutely fantastic. Right. So, like, that's always exciting. But regardless of the conference itself, et cetera, we got an opportunity to present there, which was awesome as well. Together with Bayern Munich, which is what I mentioned, which was like, we had like a masterclass, I think it's called. And then I met a lot of people that I knew. Right. So from the ad tech and martech kind of worlds. And I kind of like. So you just walk around and you just bump into people, which is kind of cool. On its own. On its own way. Right. I mean, again, if you're an ad tech or MARTECH kind of geek, then. Then it's kind of cool. Um, and so overall, I would say it was a good experience. The team, I mean, I had quite a few people from the team in there. And again, we feel that it's a good place for us to be in. So we go there every year. We go there every year. So we're kind of like, excited about that.

Speaker B: I'm just trying to think now, what does the D&D Mexico stand for? Is that for digital or Deutschland?

Speaker A: I'm guessing digital. I don't. I mean, I think it's a digital marketing expo. Something, something, something.

Speaker B: Yeah. And where was it in Germany?

Speaker A: In Cologne.

Speaker B: Oh, so the CEO is for Cologne.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, probably.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Because I thought. I thought the D was for, uh, Deutsche, because somebody told me that it's very German oriented, at least for the German market.

Speaker A: It is. And I have to say, as a non German speaker, I felt. I felt a little bit kind of like an idiot, to be honest. No, not really, but.

Speaker B: No, no, but the native tongue there.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: German, of course. Yeah.

Speaker A: But you get it wrong. You get around, and it's kind of okay. By the way, I checked it, as you seem very curious about it. It's the digital marketing exposition and conference, so.

Speaker B: And conference. Okay, that's it. So there's absolutely no reference to Germany in there at all.

Speaker A: What? Whatsoever. Not even a little.

Speaker B: Yeah. And. But, uh. So talking about Germany, though, and I think that's a good, great segue to finally talk about why we came here. Ziotab.

Speaker A: So I've heard.

Speaker B: Ziotab is a German company and it's. I'll.

Speaker A: I'll.

Speaker B: I'll be honest with you. I really. I mean, I've been in CDPs for about seven to eight years, or as my kids would say, 67. I have no idea what it is, but apparently a lot of people are joking around the 67 thing. But I'll say 7 to 8. I need to look at it.

Speaker A: I also heard the 67 joke and I still don't know what it means as well. So if it makes you feel any better.

Speaker B: So I'm just worried I said something offensive now, but I'll. I'll. I'll find that out.

Speaker A: We'll find out and maybe we'll cut into anything.

Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. But, uh, so seven to eight years. But it took me a lot of time to discover Ziotab. And I think I've known for you, uh, about you guys for about three years now. But you're very focused on the German market, I think, or initially because. But you guys, guys are expanding now because I saw the recent news about Sky Italia. So you guys are broadening out beyond Germany. But can you tell me a little bit more about Ziotab? Uh, is origins.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, so a couple of things. You know, it's a, it's kind of like uh, a depressing as a CEO to hear that from a guy who's in Martin. Like you already heard about like three years ago, but. But it kind of makes sense, right? So if you think about where the company started. So Zap started about 11 years ago, but it started as like a. More of an advertise ad tech kind of like data data kind of solution. Uh, right. So it was very much like leveraging at the beginning, telco data and then afterwards European data in terms of helping advertisers, you know, advertise that target the right audiences, et cetera. So kind of like, uh, if you would imagine something between like a Nielsen or a Live Ramp, like this kind of like stuff, but a very European focused one. Right. So like that was the DMP kind of thing, but really like with actual segments. Right. So actually like with actual data to sell. Right, so like.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, not.

Speaker A: Not just the Martech side, but also the actual data side. Right. So that was the origin of the company. And then uh, about five years ago. And again, this is all history that I'm telling on behalf of because I wasn't there. But about five years ago, the company decided to go into the cdp, into the CDP space. And that's. And that's. I think you mentioned as you know it for about three years. It kind of, it kind of checks. Right? So because. Yeah, it kind of tracks because eventually, you know, the company didn't do CDP until five years ago. And that's why still, I think specifically outside of Germany, we are not as known as we would like to be. Right. So, but, but uh, we do have very large customers in Germany and outside of Germany and in Italy as well. And so that we're very much of a European focused player and we operate in several markets in Europe, expanding more and more markets, uh, as we speak. And we are also actually this year like expanding into uh, into the Middle East. Um, um. And that's where like our.

Speaker B: Yeah, that place is wild. I know that is very active. And uh, and uh, because you guys drive work mostly on Google Cloud, if I remember correctly.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: That just opened up in Saudi Arabia.

Speaker A: I mean we are, we are well aware.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I can imagine in that

Speaker A: entire region is going through like an amazing transformation process. Right. I mean I was watching with my son yesterday on Netflix, the Six Kings tournament in Saudi. Um, I don't know if you know that this is a tennis tournament, um, and which is like. Ah. And you can just see like there, there is a lot of effort in connecting the dots between east and west, which I one, I find very cool on a global basis. Just kind of like looking at how the world is evolving. But also I think there's a real push in that region and we're very excited to, you know, to take part of that in that sense.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, absolutely.

Speaker A: In our small way. Of course not.

Speaker B: I wouldn't necessarily say more in a unique way because the things that I have heard about Ziotap, and uh, I'll let you elaborate on those, is that there is a. I think there was an article at the end of last year, Michael Kass, saying a lot of the features around CDPs have been commoditized. If you look at one, the ideas have been copied into all these, uh, other ones. And I mean, in your opinion, how does CSAP stand apart from other mainstream CDP solutions?

Speaker A: Yeah, so it's a great question. So I think, I mean the first one, and I think that's really what's been driving the success of the company and it's to do with the origin story as well, is what. What we call Audience Boost. Right. So we have this module called Audience Boost, which basically allows like our customers to take their first party data, uh, and then enrich it with our identity graph so that they're able to increase the match rates when they send their first data into, let's say, um, advertising platforms. Like Google, meta, uh, TikTok, et cetera. And it's a very simple idea, basically saying, you know, I have Matthew, I have his maid, or I have his email, or I have his cookie, but I don't have an identifier that Meta recognizes. And so I'm enriching the same Matthew with an identifier from Identity Graph, another identifier of Matthew. And as a result of that, now it matches in, in Meta, uh, or in Google. And now as a result of that, when Metros increase, then your, your efficiency of marketing campaigns just becomes big better. Right. So if you're.

Speaker B: And there's a bit of legacy from that ad tech period.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: The way I, you know, in general, the way I like to think of companies that, especially if they've done like an evolutionary process in their product, in their product portfolio is that there's always an origin story. Right? So like, and this is our origin story. And that like I, I keep telling the team, like that's, it's almost like karma, that that's our claim to fame in the market because that's how the company became what it is. Right. So, and so I like that. I really, I really enjoy the fact that, you know, we're, and this is honestly. And I, you know, uh, you'll interview a hundred CEOs, they always say like, this is honestly for sure the one thing that we do best than anybody else. But uh, the truth be told, I mean, and we're willing to test that with anybody else in the market. There's no, first of all, there's really very few solutions like this in Europe. It's very uncommon.

Speaker B: That's true.

Speaker A: It's, it is. I mean, in many cases, especially the American players, and I know we're going to talk about that potentially later, but the American players, they shy away from data in Europe, you know, it's like, it's kind of like a very scary space for them. And we are, you know, German privacy first GDPR first E Privacy kind of, uh, startup. And we feel very comfortable because that's been our business for a very long time. And so as a result of that, we feel very comfortable, um, operating in that space. And it really is a competitive adventure advantage for us. So that's, I would say. Sorry, go ahead.

Speaker B: No, no, no, because I was just thinking, as far as I can remember, Germany has always been a very tough market to get into and this was before gdpr, just because they've been hammering on privacy for so long. And when you talk about data storage if you want to store anything outside of Germany, uh, you know, nine out of ten times the company will say, sorry, we won't, we, uh, won't do business with you. So, so in essence, it's understandable that you're going to see local players like, like Ziotab. But before we continue, because I just mentioned that whole legacy ad tech part a couple of months ago, I think it was like two months ago, there was this, uh, news on LinkedIn that Ziotap had been acquired. But can you quickly explain and get rid of all the conspiracy theories out there in the market? What was that about?

Speaker A: Even had a, I even had a beef with some. I'm trying to remember where the lady was from.

Speaker B: Michelle Nieberding or was that potentially.

Speaker A: Yes, potentially.

Speaker B: Michelle. Sorry, Michelle.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think, you know, it's like, it's kind of a funny. I mean, you know, every ecosystem has this like LinkedIn echo chamber of people. I'm sure you know them, right? Yeah, I'm sure you can name all of them almost. Right, so. And it's like, and it's almost really, it's like its own echo chamber of like people like, you know, kind of

Speaker B: like, uh, but in all fairness, it is a nice community. The bubble, at least the bubble that I'm in.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, no, I did, uh, I didn't mean it in a negative way, but it's like, it's kind of funny to see this. It's like whenever you look at comments, you know, we kind of like look at LinkedIn, you always see the same people. Right. So it's kind of funny to see that like it's an actual community which, I mean, of course we're, you know, friends with them. Very excited. Anyway, long story short, as we said, the uh, origin of the company was the ad tech business and we recently sold that adtech business. Like that, that part of it has been sold. Um, so what we call Ziotap Data, which is like the data, uh, that, that has been sold to a company called vocad, which is another German based startup, uh, in the ad tech space and we have an exclusive partnership with them for the next five years basically to kind of buy back our own identity graph from them.

Speaker B: So that I was just about to say that kind of, uh, you don't lose that IP that.

Speaker A: No, absolutely not. And that we can continue to be the only CDP in Europe that has that. Right. So like, that's, that's the nice thing about this, the structure of the deal. But yes, but we have sold that part of business, but we have not. ZTAP is still on its own, of course, A standalone business on the CDP side of things. Absolutely. And so that's like the. The clarification of that misunderstanding on LinkedIn. Right. Well, um, the whole. The whole company was never sold. It was the. It was just the, The. The ad tech part or the data.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I'll have to reset that bingo card. Uh, I think, uh.

Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker B: We're so close.

Speaker A: So close. I. And I really asked her to reset that bingo card. And she was like, no, you sold something. The bingo card applied. I'm like, okay, fine, never mind.

Speaker B: It was funny, if you put it that way. Yeah. Okay. You did sell something then, at least.

Speaker A: Yeah. So it's an argument. I didn't know the rules of the bingo. Right. I just wasn't fully aware.

Speaker B: It's not like Fight Club.

Speaker A: I know, I know, I know.

Speaker B: You mentioned. So we were talking about Germany. You guys are in Germany, but you guys have, uh, clients internationally. Yes, but as I was speaking to another, uh, vendor a few podcasts ago, I think was last season, we came to the topic of data, uh, sovereignty. And this was, I think, when, uh, the American president or that new administration, uh, sat down and finally started taking control, there was a lot of unease, uh, between the countries across the Atlantic. Is this where having a local player kind of comes into play for companies who are uncertain about what's going to happen with their data? Working with US Vendors? Because you just mentioned, you know, US Companies are kind of wary of choosing a European vendor because your data will be stored here. Different rules. How have you been experiencing that with, uh, the Ziotab as a predominantly European company?

Speaker A: So, you know, in an ideal world, I would have wanted to say it doesn't matter, but the reality, it does really matter. Especially since the, let's say the latest administration has been really pounding hard on Europe as a. As a whole, whether it's with tariff or just like UN speeches or whatever it is that you want.

Speaker B: That's incredible.

Speaker A: That was, it was a. That was. It was a very fun reality moment to watch if it wasn't really our world. Right. So. But it is where we live in. Anyway, the long story short is that there is a sentiment, I would say, um, around that. And I also think there's always been a little bit of an undercurrent. Not like, as a sentiment in terms of, but in undercurrent. Like saying if an American vendor comes to Europe and they're under investing, as in they're Just like bringing a handful of people and trying to service the market very like, let's say in an American way. Then it becomes quite hurtful. Like we had our first. No, probably second but first deal that I've heard it. So clearly somebody saying, uh, I don't want to work with the Americans. And it wasn't. And it wasn't because of the software quality. It wasn't like that wasn't an issue. And it also wasn't because of GDPR or anything like that. It was just, it was just a little bit of that kind of like feeling of um, you're not taking us seriously, you know. And so that's like, you know, so for me that was an interesting thing. Right. So it wasn't, you know, you would expect like data sovereignty, like gdpr, whatever, like the hosting, you know. It wasn't that. It was more about the fact.

Speaker B: I understand. Yeah.

Speaker A: The Europeans feel like they, I mean, and you know we have, I mean as a company we have people from I think probably 10 different countries in Europe, like in uh, in our go to market teams and they're spread across all over Europe and we were kind of like a remote company. So we're kind of like really spread across the, the whole, the whole continent. And the island next to the continent used to be part of the, part of the. Part of the.

Speaker B: We won't name names.

Speaker A: Ah, yeah, whatever. Yeah. Rhyme rhymes with the schmoonide schmindom. Um, anyway, so we have a lot of people all over the place.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so almost by definition you become culturally sensitive. Not in the sense that you understand all cultures and everything, but you know what I mean, there's a certain understanding, like an innate understanding for Europeans that we are all a little bit different and there's a little bit quirkiness here. And you know, sometimes you make fun of it and some, you know, like it's all. But there is, there is that very innate understanding. And I think sometimes when American vendors can come over to the across the pond, they might be a little bit heavy handed with that. Right. So they might assume that like everything works like the US which is a very big market, et cetera. So I think that's kind of that where that sentiment might find a little bit of excitement, which is I think more amplified with what's going on in the world. I don't think it's like, what I mean is like. So what I'm saying is like basically there's a bit of probably, there's a bit of an undercurrent always. And then the recent events have just been kind of like amplifying the story a little bit.

Speaker B: Um, yeah, absolutely. But I think what you've been experiencing is something that I remember, um, looking back about 15 years ago, um, when tools, uh, like Google. No, that's more like 20 years ago when Google Analytics set up shop here in Europe. Ah, you had Omnitor site, Catalyst, you had all these major Martech brands, a lot of them, um, uh, from the U.S. uh, even a few from uh, Campal. Uh, Israel was a big, big, big hub. Yeah. Of innovation there as well. And I remember working with a lot of Israeli companies in terms of Martech solutions. And it was, there was a whole different culture. I think the Israelis, they understood Europe a lot better. But then when the Americans came in, if you look at the deal sizes, that was one of the, one of the giveaways. They would come in with US pricing and like. Yeah, but our definition of an enterprise here in the Netherlands, if I was just looking at one country is, is like maybe a mid market company size or maybe even smaller in the US in terms of revenue. So there was no way we could be affording these US based tools within Dutch companies. And I think a lot has been changing over the years, but it's also kind of the pressure. And um, I've seen situations where you say, no, no, no, don't go higher up. Uh, you're dealing with me. Uh, we're going to get this project sorted out. And because the project slows down, it's, and I don't know if this is, I mean, if there are any Americans watching or listening, uh, please prove me otherwise. I always feel that they, the sales techniques are a little bit harder, uh, rougher because they just, they'll go above you, they'll, they'll skip the line, go, uh, uh, up the chain of command, so to speak. You're really someone more, you don't, you

Speaker A: don't want to get me started on that. Right. So I mean like this is, I mean as, I mean as you can imagine, I mean, you know, probably the two most large American players in the CDP space are obvious. Right? So one, one is Adobe and one is Salesforce. Right. I mean those are the two big ones that are competing in this space and we find ourselves in many cases competing almost in an unfair competition where there's a C level going to a C level, sometimes a C level, tickets for Beyonce. Exactly. Where it's like you ask yourself, well, okay, that's one way of buying software.

Speaker B: I Guess CEO tap's like we can give you front row seats at Bayern Munich, but it's the basketball and it's just getting exact.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: And the influence is incredible.

Speaker A: Exactly. And so I think that's uh, that's definitely something that we are, we're dealing with. I mean, I'm very proud to say that despite that. Right. So we've still freed up quite a lot of customers from these two specific vendors. And I mean, again, I don't love bad mouthing competition but I mean these two ones are, I mean, you know,

Speaker B: sometimes the shoe doesn't fit.

Speaker A: You know, it's not the most impressive tech stack I've seen in my life. Right. So, and so as a result of that, I would say it's one of the, it's like, it really is like a nice thing for us to be a win against those folks or to replace those folks because we feel we can actually do a much better job than them, honestly. And you mentioned earlier about like all the, all the CDPs are commoditized. I don't, first of all, I don't think so. Uh, fundamentally I think probably each of them have their own angle. Right. So yes, there is probably a 70% overlap in the feature base that is probably, you know, it's not going to be dramatic to, to, to differentiate, but then there's very rarely, there's nothing that differentiate this competitor from that competitor, et cetera. And so and with Adobe and Salesforce, it's a lot to do with the heavy handedness of these tools. They're just like, they're just really old stacks and as a result of that you have to bring your data to them rather than, rather than them accommodating your data. Right. So this, this whole schema concept of like, you know, being like you really are forced into a schema which is eventually it's engineering resources and it's, and it's complexity. Right. So like you start not really identifying your own data in a way. Right. So we're, we're a player like ours, which is schema agnostic and you can bring that, bring the data, we'll figure it out kind of thing. Right. So that's a very different approach to this.

Speaker B: And is that kind of the biggest arguments you've been hearing from those people who have been looking to switch away?

Speaker A: No, no, that's just like, that's like almost like the icing on it. No, in many cases these people, I mean those platform, the implementation just is too long, too cumbersome, very, very difficult like it's like, I mean people ended up doing like year long or year and a half long implementation that didn't succeed.

Speaker B: Incredible.

Speaker A: You know, imagine, imagine buying a piece of software a year and a half later, you're not even started. It's like a nuts look how far

Speaker B: AI is developed in a year and a half.

Speaker A: Exactly. And so it's like, you know, like the world around you is like moving, you know at like. And this thing is just like stuck. And so I think, I think people are, especially in many, uh, many of the enterprises, they're quite allergic to that. And I think that's like one of the reasons why they prefer vendors like our, like us is because then they know that we're going to make it work faster for them and they know that like, you know, we're going to be in it, in it to make it happen. Um, and you know, I mean that's one of the nice thing of working with a vendor like ours, like, or a vendor of, of our size, let's say this way. And the fact that they were independent. We don't try to push other, no, all of our other suites products because we don't have them. You know, that's like, it's another, you know what I mean? It's like, it's one of those things you feel like okay, this vendor is here because they're trying to optimize this piece. Right. So the data layer and the data architecture for us, that's what we're trying to optimize. So.

Speaker B: So uh, what is your opinion about these kind of solutions that, that have everything? Because it's a trend that I've been seeing especially in mid market in Europe. So that would be small business s. U.S. yeah. But anyway what I'm seeing there is that there's a lot of. The most common one I'm seeing right now is companies moving away from Salesforce Marketing cloud or Salesforce Commerce cloud to solutions like Spotify with a marketplace CEP plugged into that. You know we're talking um, the brazes, customer, iOS, bloom reaches, et cetera who do host more, more features built in. How do you guys view that? I mean is that I have respect for the pure play companies like you do because you're either what somebody once say to me, you're either kind of, you know, as a generalist you're mediocre at everything, but as a pure play you can really excel and become the expert in one. How have you been experiencing that within the European market? Is there, is it kind Of a mixed demand.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's, it's very mixed to be honest. Right. I mean you do have like. Look, there's a lot of arguments for buying a sweet solution and buying a best of breed solution. I mean both arguments are legitimate, both

Speaker B: means to an end.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. I would say two things. One, we've seen really a variety uh, in different companies and I have yet to have seen, and I think I have yet to have seen one enterprise that has only one solution. Oh like one vendor I've never seen. So even, I mean the can of worms, the whole premise of the best of Swedes like you do, at least it's a single ecosystem, everything is taken care of. It just doesn't exist. Because I mean even if it does exist, they buy something and then immediately that company comes in and they have their own activation platform and now all of a sudden you're stuck again with like two ceps. Uh, right. So it's, it is actually very rare to see a uh, fully deployed best of suite solution. Very rare. And it could, I think it can mostly happen in mid market actually more than the enterprise. So for us we are, we're very focused on the higher uh, end of the enterprise. Our customers are us be quite large and our contract size are quite large as well. And so there we feel almost natural that you would go for a best of breed cdp because the moment you need to activate between two, nothing more, just two activation platforms, you're going to get stuck because you know Adobe is not going to play nice with Salesforce and Salesforce are going to play with Adobe. So if you have like that plus braze or that plus Mrs. Or that plus some, you're going to get stuck your data um, model. The data will not flow as nicely as you want it to flow. Right. I mean the, the um, the same as walled gardens. Right. So walled gardens play very well with themselves and very poorly with the rest of the ecosystem. Right. And it's the same thing with best of best of sweet. Like the sweet solutions, they play reasonably nice with each other, with itself. But as soon as you leave, if you want to use the CDP of let's say Salesforce into a uh, braze, it's got to be difficult because it, because it was built for that. Right. It's almost inherently built for this walled garden kind of, kind uh, of environment. And so for us like again talking about the enterprises, it's a very easy quote unquote, um, easy sell to say, you know, it doesn't make sense for you to Buy like a Salesforce and Adobe because you're going to get stuck with them and if you're, unless you're planning on moving everything in your stack to them, which is an unlikely scenario in practice because that's not how enterprises behave, then you better off with the best of breed solution.

Speaker B: And is there a difference between kind of newer companies who uh, may have been completely digital from day one compared uh, to uh, legacy companies who have been around with you know, ticker tapes and uh, I don't know, punch cards and things like that? Is it in terms of adopting new uh, solutions?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I mean the, I mean the digital natives, I mean there's another trend which I'm sure you're familiar with the whole composable zero copy kind of thing that's going on with kind of like um, in the market. I would say that m, that solution for example is very much of a digital native solution. So like for companies that are like, they have a very strong engineering focus and they have a strong engineering team, I understand the allure of like this uh, thing. Although if you look at the zero copy, it's like almost zero copy and there's cash that, I mean if you actually, if you open the hood just a little bit, you start realizing it's kind of zero copy. But it's not really ignoring. But it's a nice market, it's a nice marketing buzz. So we're not gonna, we're not gonna bet you.

Speaker B: No, no, no, we're not gonna bash it here.

Speaker A: Yeah, but, but, but I was saying to your question earlier, I was saying basically so the digital natives, they, they play along very well with that. Whereas the more traditional companies that like their engineering, let's say muscle is not as developed, they would go for a more of a package like SaaS solution which I think so like that's, that's a clear, very clear differentiation we're seeing in the market. I would say intuitively that the digital natives do not buy a lot of uh, like a Salesforce. Like they just, it's not their style. Like they, they would try to go more for the more innovative solutions in the market. Right. So which is not the you know, Salesforce marketing cloud or Adobe Engage or Target and all these things. Right. So like there's are nicer, you know, whether it's airship, I don't know, I

Speaker B: don't know if I can say. But they're, they're, they're like the vegans.

Speaker A: Wow, that's like you, you dug yourself a big hole Now I know, I know.

Speaker B: And kind of the salesforce and Adobes are more the pre processed or highly processed foods. And uh, you go from purists to.

Speaker A: I am not saying, I'm not saying anything right now. Okay. This analogy is.

Speaker B: No, no, no, no.

Speaker A: It's 100% yours.

Speaker B: I'm owning this one. But it's, it's, it's still amazing to see that um, I mean one of the biggest questions that I have around Composable and I is more. There's never a clear picture about the total cost. And I think you pointed that out is that it really. Look, the tool you choose, it doesn't really matter. If you have a problem and this tool can solve it with the resources that you have, then you're on a good path. And I think the, there's a lot of confusion in the market right now. That's why I try to jump in and help companies is that they can make, they can't make the distinction anymore. Should we go composable? But what is the impact of composable? Do you have the engineering resource? Do you have the architecture? Yeah, um, uh, to work with that. And that's, you know, those cases are uh, quite often overlooked, my opinion. But it's, I mean human resources is a big thing. So if we look at Cotab, what would kind of be um, the ideal uh, available resources within a company to work with a tool like Ziotab? I know you guys plug natively into um, you guys are Google Cloud native. So plugging into.

Speaker A: Yeah, from a source perspective, we plug into anybody. Right. So it's. Yeah, it could be of course Google, Google Cloud, but it doesn't matter. The fact that our infrastructure is sitting on Google Cloud.

Speaker B: Oh, uh, that was it.

Speaker A: Yeah, it doesn't matter at all. I mean you can, we connect to databricks, we connect to Snowflake, we connect to all. Any type of data warehouse that you have, you know, redshift, whatever, we will connect to it and any other uh, like any other type of data, whether it's your web stream or your clickstream, et cetera, we will connect it whether they. Via an API or via whatever. I mean there's sources is never limited to anything. Right. So because uh, otherwise we won't be able to compete in the market. Right. So I mean it's almost unseen that you have enterprises even using like one, one cloud or one data warehouse even that is very, very uncommon. Right. So we, we see that a lot. So, so absolutely, we connect to pretty much everything and anything again. That's part of the, part of the story that we're trying to cater, uh, to let's say. But the companies that we, I would say the best fit to work with us, I would say are companies that are not necessarily digital native. So we, we work very well with the more traditional kind of uh, companies and from a resource perspective, I mean we don't ask them for anything, to be honest. Right. So I mean eventually of course there's going to be some implementation effort around this. But because of our approach, I mean we're extremely like, kind of like religiously use case driven, as in first and foremost we sit down like, whatever, like one day after the contract is signed and we say okay, tell us what you want to achieve 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. And we build a list of like, I don't know, 20, 30, 50, 100 use cases and then we start like basically going reverse engineering from that point backwards. We don't like say, okay, now let's look at the entire data architecture, uh, and everything. Of course we do that a little bit so that we are future ready as well. But the use case is what guides us like eventually. So you will find in many cases that we start ingesting just a sub portion of the data, uh, because we know that that would activate the use case very fast. And like we're, we're, we're our aim and we are successful, I would say probably 60, 70% of the times is within eight weeks to be live with the first use case. Eight weeks from the moment people like blow the whistle and say, okay, now let's get going. And there's a project team on their side there, there's a project team on our, like that's our aim. Sometimes it takes instead of two months, it takes three months. But we're not far off from it. And you know, and looking at other CDP implementations where you know, things as I said earlier, like takes, sometimes takes a year. It's impossible to imagine a situation where you have like, you know, a year to wait until software forget about, realizes ROI just starts working, like actually starts doing things. So uh, for us, like that's what we want to focus. So I mean, so that's like what, um, what we expect eventually from our customers to have somebody on the other side to work with us on this kind of stuff. One of the tricks that we've learned actually very, I mean very nicely from uh, one of our customers from Luke, from Entane. Luke, uh, is a guy who's leading the CDP in Entain. And he basically said like he's always at least 1/4 or if not 2/4 ahead in terms of an engineering demand from his, from his team. So basically if you have a use case you want to implement in Q3, you want to ask for the resource in Q1 kind of thing. And I know it sounds very tactical and generic, but it's actually a very good trick of basically saying because uh, what a lot of people do say okay, now let's implement this use case. Now they go to engineering and they say, okay, yeah, well let's wait for another quarter because we're stuck because we don't have the resources. So I think actually building a use case roadmap and deriving from it, a technical roadmap and actually sharing that early on is the way to go. And that's.

Speaker B: Oh no, absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker A: And that's kind of. And yeah, you need to consider that

Speaker B: not everything can be self serve. You might have data points missing, you might have some consent integration missing. So it definitely takes uh, a lot of planning. When you talk about these counterparts with the clients, I'm very curious. Are these mostly marketing people or engineering? And then how many of those cases do you actually deal with cross functional teams?

Speaker A: So the unfortunate answer is both. Right, so it's marketing and technology people. So we've seen different models when it comes to like where does the MARTECH function sit or where does the, where does the CVP lead sit? Right. So we've seen either in tech or in business and it's. I don't know that there is a necessarily a one size fits all kind of answer to where they should sit. I think eventually it's more of an organizational question than uh, you know, it can work either way is what I'm trying to say.

Speaker B: But then the other question, is it more do you deal with cross functional teams or is it just one, one person?

Speaker A: No, no, it's absolutely cross functional. It's absolutely. I mean uh, the Martech team almost by its nature is a cross functional team. Right.

Speaker B: So it's dealing with a lot of the ideal situation.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And no, and it's, it is, it is how it is in most of our customers. Right. So it's very, very common that we deal with like cross functional teams. Um, it is of course complicated because eventually in many cases they are dealing with them, but they don't own any of them. Right. So it's like the level of influence that they have is very, let's say, varied across different organization and a lot of what we do is actually like change management, marketing, the marketing transformation, like stuff that is, you know, you wouldn't think of it as like the core of a cdp, but the reality when you bring in a CDP and you want to actually run a successful CDP implementation, you actually mean that you are changing things in the way you do marketing quite meaningfully. And sometimes I feel sometimes companies underestimate that piece in the puzzle of bringing in a CDP eventually the whole story of like, you know, omnichannel orchestration and like, you know, and like uh, like breaking down data silos, which is like, you know, all the, all the buzzwords around CDPs, they involve change management and this is the part.

Speaker B: And your organizational impact is so neglected.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. When it's happening, it's like, it's almost like there's an assumption like we'll bring a solution and it will solve everything. Right. So but, you know, but very rarely still to this day, and it very rarely works like that. I'm still like puzzled. I mean I was a marketeer for many years in my life, right? So in Google and at the bool, I was, I mean I was leading like large marketing organizations. And you, I mean you fully understand like the, I mean there's always needs to be a layer that streamlines the journey of the consumer, right? So like a consumer or customer, it doesn't matter. Like there has to be a team, a set of people that think of this whole journey from start to finish. And it's very rare in companies like even in very large enterprises, these people don't exist. And then you end up with these silos of like, okay, this is the team that does does CRM. This is the team that does email marketing. This is the team that does who manages the app. And I'm like, well, I'm a consumer. Do I need to see something very dramatic between. Differently dramatic between my app and my email? I don't think so. I expect if I'm talking to, you know, company XYZ with a consumer brand, I would like to see reasonably the same messaging, the same offers, and the same. And the same creative around it. Right. I don't want to see.

Speaker B: Very true.

Speaker A: But it's different teams completely, right? So they're completely. And there's nothing to orchestrate above that. And so in a lot of cases, people bring a cdp, think, okay, that will solve it. But actually there's a process and change management around it that is kind of missed as part of it.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I talk, I usually talk about that. The CDP is a mirror for the internal organization. It really starts reflecting how you operate as a team internally, or don't, because you all work in silos.

Speaker A: It's a very, it's a very good analogy. Uh, it's just that many people don't like mirrors.

Speaker B: No, not when I looked in the mirror this morning. I need to get back to the gym a little bit more often and start running.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: Winding down here because we're reaching the top of the hour. What's in store for COTAP in 2020? You can reveal. I mean, it's two and a half months away. There must be something brewing in the, uh, COTAP kitchen.

Speaker A: Absolutely. I mean, I mean the stuff that we are excited about mostly I would say from a product perspective, is all of our AI. I mean, the nice thing about being a GCP native company is the fact that you get access to the best AI in the market. I mean, honestly, like, it's like maybe I'm saying something contentious and maybe people. No, no, of course it's open AI. It's open AI or whatever. Google is at the.

Speaker B: Everyone's a guru, but nobody has the proof.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Google is at the forefront of this race. I don't know if it's. Maybe if it's not that, but it's like, you know, in the top three in the race. And, and so being a partner with them is really, really fantastic in that sense. And we are like, you know, and so the thing that, I mean, to answer your question, really, like, I mean, like the thing that for me is personally most exciting is the talk to your data initiative. So we're actually. This has been a promise. Again, I was a marketeer, right. So I mean, I've heard about talk to your data. I don't know, 15 years ago, like, we'll just write in natural language. And then the analytics. Did you know this was like a heap analytics and like all the amplitude and mixpanel, they were all. Everybody was promising. Talk to your data. Right? So everybody. And still to this day, I haven't seen any working model of that, but I do think, think that, I mean, we're starting to see with the evolution of, like, with the improvements of the LLMs and with the improvement actually of the machine learning around it and the guardrails around it, we're starting to see stuff that actually looks very promising. So I'm very excited to have actually data democratized in the sense of like, if I'm a marketeer, I can just go ask something and get the results and get and know what is this segment? How is it performing? This is very cool stuff that we are sitting on. And we are unable to bring it to the market in the sense we have a lot of data and of course. And so for us to democratize, that will be pretty insane. The other thing that I'm excited about, which is just because I'm a little bit of a geek, is, um, the data onboarding. So data onboarding is probably one of the most painful exercises, as in the whole data mapping and the taxonomy. I mean, it's like everybody's nightmare, three days of implementation is around that. And we, I mean, we're seeing it like, again with AI, we're seeing awesome ways to minimize that to a very, very small subset of pain versus the original pain. So I mean, using AI to actually

Speaker B: pre fill the mapping.

Speaker A: Yeah, to pre fill the mapping. Exactly. And it's pretty, I mean, it's pretty awesome. And again, I am, I'm not like an AI, drank all the Kool Aid kind of dude. I actually have my. Probably because I'm old, but I have, I have my skepticism about some stuff around there. But the stuff that I see that actually works, and I can understand the logic, why it works, I feel pretty comfortable with. And so these two areas, um, from, from a product improvement, from a product perspective, are very interesting for us. And of course we will have more composable coming in and more and more zero copy kind of. This is part of. I mean, I don't know that I'm overly excited about this, but it's part of, it's part of the world. I actually think. I think this is client demand. Exactly. This is a client demand. And I think there's an evolution that we've been going through for the past year or so and this will continue for next year for us. Absolutely.

Speaker B: Yeah. Excellent. I think AI is one of the last, one of the newer things that will, uh, un. Commoditize, uh, CDPs again. Because what I'm seeing is that a lot of companies are kind of taking their different approach, uh, to how they want to leverage AI. And I'm looking forward to seeing those, uh, those features released in, uh, 2026.

Speaker A: A lot.

Speaker B: Thank you so much for your time today. Good luck in the continuing, uh, CEOing

Speaker A: of, uh, Ziotap Z E O Ing.

Speaker B: Now we need to build something. All right. We'll figure something. I just don't know what the Z stands for. I'll need to dig around. But, uh, it was an absolute pleasure talking to you and, uh, hearing more about Ziotab and especially your thoughts around the CDP space in general.

Speaker A: Same here. Thanks a lot, Matthew. I appreciate it.