194: BAE Systems' Caitlin Hayden on Leading in a Faster, Messier, Tougher World

Speaker A: M

Speaker B: welcome to Change Makers. I'm Bradley Accubiro. Leadership today rarely comes with the luxury of certainty. The pace is faster, the environment is messier, and the decisions are tougher. And for leaders operating at the intersection of business, geopolitics and public trust, the pressure to communicate clearly has never been greater. My guest today knows that world intimately. Kaitlyn Hayden is Group Communications Director at BAE Systems, where she leads global communications and sits on the Executive committee. Before joining bae, she served in the Obama White House on national security and communications, working across issues from cybersecurity to global conflict. With experience in Afghanistan and Iraq, this is a conversation about leadership under pressure, communicating through uncertainty, and building trust when the stakes are high. Welcome to Change Makers. I am so excited, Caitlin, to have this discussion with you today.

Speaker A: Thanks, Bradley. Glad to be here.

Speaker B: Uh, and what an auspicious time to be having this conversation.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean there's a lot going on in the world for sure. And in, and in our world in communications, it's changing a lot.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And you're such a great person to talk about these things. We have had conversations over the years about so many of the topics that impact the moment we're having right now, where things are, as I like to say, faster, messier and tougher. Um, but I'd like to take a step back and really explore your career. You've done so many things within, um, diplomacy, within foreign policy, broadly within communications, now one of the most, um, influential, uh, defense companies in the world. Talk to us a little bit about the, through lines of the choices you've made in your career.

Speaker A: Yeah, um, it's a really interesting question because I, I think there's a couple through lines, but I'm not sure I did that intentionally. But I think at each juncture. I've always wanted my job to be about happiness and growth for me personally and then wanting to work on things that had, that were challenging and had complexity and where there was a chance to have an impact. So I think happiness and growth and I think in each phase of my career those have been different things. I mean, you kind of, I always ask myself, like, what am I solving for? And at each phase I'm solving for something different in life. Like right now I have a, I have an amazing eight and a half year old daughter. Um, sometimes I'm solving for things that give me that flexibility where earlier in my career I wasn't solving for that, but fundamentally I want to do something that is complex and challenging and where I feel like I'm part of Something that's going to have an impact, hopefully a positive impact. That's why I got into government, uh, to begin with, right out of grad school. I just wanted to be part of something kind of bigger that was trying to do something good in the world. And then I've just tried to do that throughout. I think that's probably the through line is like complexity, impact.

Speaker B: And I love the point that you just made in terms of you wanted to also kind of create not only something that's complementary for you professionally, but personally as you're figuring out what happens next. I think that's so important, and I think so many people miss that part of it.

Speaker A: Yeah, I. I have, um. I've always had kind of an idea of what I wanted to do, but I think if you have a plan and stick really rigorously to that plan, you're going to miss out on a lot of things. You've got to. You've got to account for what's changing in your life, what you need at the moment, what's going on in the world. My job now, sitting in the UK at a company, BAE Systems, that I frankly had never heard of earlier in my career, um, I would not have thought that this is where I'd be, and I'm so thrilled. I am. But it was about making choices along the way that kind of helped me build to this moment. But if I'd set on a path to get here, I probably wouldn't have. Um. So, yeah, I just try to solve for the moment in my life. Am I gonna be doing something I'm really excited about in a culture that I can thrive in, where I'm being kind of tested, um, intellectually, if those things are there, great. I'm going to give it a try. And I think you know this because, you know me, that's led me to serve in places like Iraq and Afghanistan and travel all over the world, um, that I would never have planned for myself. So I think taking risks along the way with, as long as you know what you're solving for, opens up all these possibilities. Um, so, yeah, I. There was never a plan. There's still not a plan.

Speaker B: And it's worked out so well. I mean, I actually want to pull on that last thread, which is you have spent time in many different, uh, um, theaters. You have been in national security and foreign policy. Um, talk a little bit about how your background, whether at the U.S. state Department or national security apparatus, has kind of informed the way you think about the job today, particularly in a moment where geopolitics is playing such a significant role.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think the answer to that is kind of in two buckets. One, um, working in a global environment like that and having to travel and try to understand different governmental systems, different backgrounds, histories, um, you start to really recognize quite how big the world is and how different it might be from where you're sitting. And I think there can be in big companies in particular especially, I've spent most of my life in Washington D.C. and a lot of time here in London. You could work in those places and start to think that the world revolves around you and that everybody's paying attention to you and start to make decisions based on that feeling that you're in the most important place in the world. And actually in most markets in most countries, um, they're kind of aware of what you're doing, but they're not living and breathing your world. They, they're living and breathing their world. And so getting that perspective, that kind of global understanding I think has really helped me in a role like this where um, we're in 40, we're selling to customers in 40 different countries and I can't be so, you know, involved in my own world that I don't understand the context around me. So that, that kind of global uh, mindset. And then the second is um, in those jobs you're under a lot of scrutiny, a lot of pressure. Um, and I think doing those kinds of roles has really taught me the importance of um, I'm not British, but to be very British about kind of staying calm, to carry on. You have to um, kind of stay calm to get yourself through uh, any number of issues. And so in the corporate world there are a lot of things that feel really big. Uh, you just have to take a breath and be um, strategic about what you're going to do next. And I think working under the pressure of kind of global eyes on you in the US government taught me um, to be really thoughtful, um, and to know that there are going to be a lot of eyes on you and you need to get it right. So take a breath, think it through before you go out and take an action. So I think those are kind of the things that have really helped me um, and shaped the strategic council that I now give people. And I worked at a PR firm um, for a few years and providing that counsel to clients as well. Not just in my in house role, but I think it's really shaped um, the advice that I give around, you know, staying calm and listening and thinking about what's going on outside of your little world?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I want to, you know, shift gears just a little bit. You are on the executive leadership team for BAE Systems. Um, you are part of the defense ecosystem in a major way. Um, and this is a sector that has been quite disrupted recently. Um, we're talking AI, major security threats. We have multiple wars that are going on across the world right now. How does an organization that has the legacy and the tradition that you all have evolve as you need to in this moment? What does it actually look like to continue to push forward?

Speaker A: Um, I know a lot of your listeners will be in the US and I think BA Systems is not as well known, uh, in the US market as it is here in the UK, but, but we've got about 110,000 employees, um, around the world. And our history goes back hundreds and hundreds of years, uh, to Royal Ordnance here in the uk and so we have this really long legacy. And I think what you're talking about, there's the disruption of global events, there's kind, uh, of increases in defense spending to kind of account for that. So the inputs are changing, the customer demands are changing, and then the landscape is changing. We've got these disruptors coming in. These are non traditional players. Um, and it is a really challenging and interesting moment for us as a company. And I think, um, a lot of what we try to think about is really listening to the customer demand. Um, and we're a really trusted brand and a trusted company. And that's hard earned. That is really hard earned over the years. And I think for us, we have to figure out how to kind of meet that moment that we're in without losing all the trust and equity we've built up. I think, um, particularly in communications, we're always scanning and looking at what other people are doing and saying, that was really interesting, exciting. Should we do that? And I think it's really important for all of us to stop and ask ourselves what got us here, um, and not go jump and do something that maybe is inauthentic to who we are and that maybe isn't drawing on our best strengths. And so we're in this really interesting moment where I think, um, there are a lot of competitors who are quite, um, interesting and non traditional and doing flashy things. Um, and we are trying to be really thoughtful about not reinventing ourselves, but evolving ourselves to kind of meet the moment that we're in. Um, and I think there can always be, um, an impulse to move quickly and to go be a part of a conversation. And, um, you know, there's sometimes we, we might take a risk and step outside our box, but you've got to worry about what's true to, to your company and your brand. Um, and so for us, um, it's a really interesting moment. And I think, um, I sit in these, these forums talking to our employees and my boss, the CEO will say, I just think we need to do a better job of telling our story. And I said, that's, that's what we're, that's what we're doing. That's what we're trying to do to help people understand, um, how innovative we are and how exciting that is. And you know this, Bradley. I think communications have often have the best jobs at that table because we get to see across, we see what's special about what we do, and we get to tell the story of not just our kind of products, but our people. Um, so it's, it's a fascinating time to try and, and navigate this, this environment. But I think as you said, global conflict, um, you know, it's an uncertain moment for a lot of people, and it can't just be business as usual. Do what we've always done because things are changing and if we don't acknowledge that, um, we're not going to be effective in helping people understand how we're going to be along the journey with them.

Speaker B: Yeah. As you say this, I think when you were thinking about the culture of an organization and how you move it along and it is so difficult to come in and say, this is what I believe and therefore we should go do, how do you actually convince both leaders and others to come along with you?

Speaker A: Um, the bringing people along on the journey is one of the most important things. I mean, where I sit at the table in the boardroom, it's one thing to make a decision, but it doesn't become real until everyone in the organization is bought in and moving in that direction. And, um, not to go on too much of a tangent, but I think I would just shout out the incredible importance in every organization of people managers. Um, it's one thing to kind of lead from the top, but it's actually the people in the business who are going to make everything real. And so bringing them along is about listening and it's about explaining the why. I mean, you can't just send a note out to people managers who actually don't know anything more than is in the note and say, go explain this to all of your teams. And if they have questions, they should ask you, but actually we haven't told you anything beyond what's in the note. So I think we have to really, as you build plans and need to bring people along on the change journey, you have to really kind of almost double down on the, the time in advance of listening to people, investing them in it, actually changing plans where you get feedback. But people need to understand the why. Um, and I talked about this in your amazing book, Bradley, but I think people are more understanding and more trusting of a decision if they understand what's driving it and they understand who's driving it. Something given to them in a vacuum. I mean, it's really hard to go along with a thing if you don't really understand why the company's doing it. You might not agree with it, but if you know why and you know that they thought about you in the process, you the employee or you the stakeholder, you the customer, you know, you've got some more grace for that. So I think you have to, you have to bring people along by listening and explaining, not just announcing. It's not, it's not good enough to just say, here's an announcement coming in two days. I gave you some notice. It needs to be real engagement. And that's, that's hard to do. It's hard to build in the time for. But it's what makes the difference between something kind of feeling like, uh, an edict and something feeling like a new direction.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it seems that we're in this kind of space in the world where people respect and appreciate that more from their leaders. Right. There is a lot of top down, but also there is so much more respect for leaders who can relate and connect and understand where people are coming from. And so you embody that so well.

Speaker A: Thanks. Well, I think we all want to be, be part of something that feels human. Um, just knowing that your boss is a human. And I mean, I spend a lot of time trying to be really clear with my team that it's okay to say I don't know, because guess what, we don't all know the answers. And to share some of what's going on behind the scenes to say, you know, I have a kid, I have things going on at home. We're, um, all humans and we need to have grace for, for each other. And so I try to be really, really human. And if that's messy sometimes, then it's messy sometimes. But that's, that's what we all are. And I think that's what, you know, um, we have to Recognize when we're trying to all just muck in and get stuff done together. It's just other, other humans.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so yeah, I'm, I'm maybe, maybe over vulnerable sometimes. I'm not sure everybody wants to know all the things that I share. But um, you know, our leaders are just people as well, trying to do their best.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well on the vein of trying to actually get people to think about the objectives and organization ways that really motivate them. How do you think about innovation? How do you create the next phase of, you know, defense innovation? Uh, how do you create the next phase of really kind of building towards this future? When things are moving so fast, people have so many inputs coming at them, how do you still kind of align them around moving forward?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that is where very clear kind of mission and values and purpose come into the mix. Um, if people understand who you are, what you're trying to achieve, you have a really clear ambition, then it's easier to cut through the noise. What, what helps me get there and what doesn't. It is like it's really overwhelming uh, to be an audience of anything. It's particularly overwhelming if you're a people manager in a business. Every different function and part of the business is telling you to do something and it's not prioritized. How do you cut through that? Um, it's a really hard job and I think we would all do well to recognize how hard it is to lead people in an organization. Um, and that's why we owe people a really clear ambition, strategy, values, purpose. Um, so I think really helping people understand that is, is key to cutting through. I also think, you know, flat structures, safe, ah, safe uh, environment to be giving ideas. I mean particularly we, you know, at BA Systems we have a lot of manufacturing safety is so important and if you don't create an environment where people can call out, I see something that is wrong, I see a problem, you could have real catastrophic, uh, effects of that. Similarly, you know, you talked about the environment changing. We've got these amazing disruptive companies coming into our space and I should say we welcome that, that that is a really good thing. Not just for our customer, but it pushes us as well. But I think you, you're not going to get the best ideas. The, the moonshot, the incredible innovation, the why don't we. If you don't create an environment where people feel like they can say something without reprisal or that they'll be heard, that they'll genuinely be heard. I want the Big ideas. I want the crazy ideas. Even if we say there's no way we can do that, you still want the idea. So I think flat structures, feedback loops, actually listening to people, um, and an environment where people feel like they can bring their ideas and kind of, uh, everything, everything they've got in their heads, that they can actually contribute. That I think that's the key to us all being able to move faster, to innovate. Um, and it's true for organizations like us, but I think it's probably also true for organizations who are smaller or in completely different industries.

Speaker B: Yeah, you mentioned a few minutes ago you contributed to the book, uh, Faster, Messier, Tougher Crisis Communications in this era of populism, AI and distrust. And I so appreciate you doing that. I'd love to just kind of hear your perspective on how this world has changed and how the moment, uh, in communications, uh, not only is different, but what's needed.

Speaker A: Yeah, um, it's a really big question, um, and a really good one, I think. You know, not to wind the clock back too far, but I often tell the folks who work with me, you know, when I used to do media clips, I would, you know, I was on Capitol Hill and I would be cutting them out of the newspaper and pasting them on and copying them. You know, things have moved quite, quite fast. Um, but I think in the last five to five or so years, and you really capture this in the book, the job of someone in our roles doing crisis communication, doing, um, corporate affairs. Um, there's so many things coming at you. I mean, I think the three big changes that I see and reflect on and try to manage, um, in my role are around information coming from a million different sources, um, mis and disinformation, um, and issues. Management challenge could come from anywhere. Now it isn't just, I know my stakeholders and I'm monitoring them. It's surround sound. So an issue can come from anywhere. Second, I think is this, um, the increase in expectation of our stakeholders, and that's our kind of customers, but also our employees of what the company's going to provide them in terms of mission, purpose, uh, answers, uh, value. Um, all of the data over the past five years is about how institutions are, uh, losing trust amongst, um, the general public. And in many cases, businesses are the most trusted institutions. So they're looking to you to do the right thing, to explain things so that expectation is ratcheted up. And then the third is that, um, it's now no longer the case that, uh, a crisis you have comes from the core of your business operations, that if you just know where your, um, potential potholes are, then, then you're okay. Your risk register is all set. It's now the case that you will be held accountable for things going on in your supply chain. People funding you, uh, not even something you're doing. Who are your investors. And so that means the risk register is, you know, it is expanded wildly. And so I think, what does all that mean? I mean, I don't have all the answers. I will listen to more of your guests to find out what they could teach me. But I think part of what it means is, um, number one, um, we, we have to, we have to practice, um, regularly. We have to be. You have the muscles exercised because if things can come from any direction, you need to be, you need to be able to activate, um, so be, be practicing. I think it's about also knowing your, again, mission, vision, values, what is, what is true to who you are. Because you gotta know where the red lines need to be for your company, for your brand. Be really clear about that. Because you can't figure it out in the moment. You can't figure it out in the middle of an issue or crisis. It needs to be the thing you keep coming back to and filtering all decisions through. So, like, know that, really know it. And that means not just in communications. It means as an executive team with the leaders of the company, are you all signed on to the same vision of what you are and what you want to be known as? That we call it our reputation, ambition. Let's be really clear on that. Because you can't figure it out in the moment. So do you know that stuff? Are you practicing? And then I think, do you have the right teams, especially in a global business? Do you have the right strong leaders in each key market? Do you have the pathways built to be talking to them, listening to them all the time? Because again, you can't build a relationship in the crisis. You need to be drawing on that. So are you listening to the people who work with you? Because you very quickly want to activate that. I think the mistake that we can probably all make under pressure is to clamp down and try and control things from the center. And I actually think that is not what's gonna make you effective. I think what's gonna make you effective is very quickly reaching out, very quickly opening up, bringing in the right inputs, running that against the frameworks, the filters, or whatever it is you've decided works for you, so that you have a decision that is as informed as possible by key stakeholders and key markets. Um, again, I think I said this earlier. We can make the mistake of thinking that the whole world is kind of experiencing and focused on where we are at headquarters, and it's just not the case. So I think that's what we need to focus on in this kind of. I think the other point I'd make, Bradley, is when things around you are moving fast, it can make you think that you have to respond just as fast. And your book goes into this. You, uh, know a good amount. I think there's a kind of holding moment where you have to be seen to be recognizing of the fact there's an issue and respond in that way. But you don't have to rush to take, take action because you can't take that stuff back. You make a bad decision in the heat of the moment, you're kind of stuck with it. So I think that stopping to take a breath and recognizing that just because the world around you is going fast, don't go any faster than you're ready to, um, you have to kind of stay calm and breathe. So that's probably a really long answer for what does it all mean? But that's what I am trying to kind of do where I'm at. And I think what it means for us as communications professionals.

Speaker B: Yeah, it is a great answer and it touches on so many different aspects. So I'm impressed that you took this really big question. I think that is amazing. Um, there's a small piece of this that I do want to, um, pull on a little bit because one of those, uh, inputs that's coming at you is culture. And it is such an important piece of this. Um, and I think for a long time B2B and B2G companies have largely assumed that they're insulated from that in a meaningful way. Um, but this is such a comprehensive kind uh, of input as you're thinking about it. How do you view culture and its impact on the work that you do and how companies need to think about responding?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. You could sit in a B2B world, or we're B2G business to government and think, well, gosh, uh, customer sentiment isn't really my problem because my customers are organizations, not people. And the fact is there's, there's still people, number one. Um, but second, um, your employees are out there having all the same reactions that that customer research is, is, is showing you and your, your employees are actively having to choose you every day. And so just like making a buying decision, making a decision about where you're going to work, um, is a really big thing. And so when I see those kinds of, um, trends and research, I may not build it into my kind of sales and marketing strategy as a business, but I'm absolutely taking it into what kind of environment, engagement, communication do our employees need from us? What do they expect from us? What drives their buying decisions or their decision to choose us every day? Um, so I think you have to be really tuned into that and you're just using that data in a different way than you might if you were a consumer facing business. But our, our employees, you know, that is their world too. And I think we, we, we might want to ignore what's going on around us and, and keep people focused on the business. But that's not real life. We all are carrying this stuff in with us every single day. Um, and if you're not paying attention to it and acknowledging it, people are going to think, well, not only do they not get it, but they don't care about me if I'm not acknowledging what's going on around you. So I think it's really important, no matter what kind of business you're in, to be tuned into that sentiment. It's just how you use it might be different.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's so true. I have one more question for you. And look, this is, um, over the years that I've known you, one of the things that I admire the most about you is that you are not only an incredible leader and incredibly smart and good at what you do, but you are a full person and you bring that, uh, in every engagement and I love that about you. Um, and you've talked online and private conversations about your family and the impact that that has had. Um, talk to us a little bit about that and how it's shaped who you are as a leader. Um, when you think about kind of bringing that full context.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, first, thank you. I appreciate that, Bradley, because, you know, it's a mutual admiration society here. Um, um, you know, I had a mentor earlier on in my career who was not only incredibly smart, but quirky and just really human. And I mean, he passed away last year. Um, and I have so many memories of him, like spilling on his tie and you know, he just, he was just a regular person and he never tried to make anybody feel, uh, like they were less than and getting to watch that kind of masterclass in just being a smart human, leading really well. I learned a lot from him and I'VE kind of taken that through my. My professional journey. And, uh, there's. There's watching it be effective and wanting to do that, but there's also the. The acknowledgement that, um, being anything different than who you are at your core takes energy. It takes mental energy to be shifting yourself and. And checking yourself and questioning yourself. And the fact is, Brad, I don't have mental energy to give to that. I need all the mental energy I have to figure out my job, um, and help my family and raise this, like, amazing little person and be a good, you know, be all the things. And so I just kind of refuse to put mental energy into turning myself into something different. And, um, it doesn't mean I don't try to adjust and that I'm not slightly different in a boardroom than I am sitting here with you. Um, but at the end, I kind of. I know who I am, and I just keep bringing that. And I think, um, if you're my boss, you know, he knew exactly kind of who I am and what I am when he hired me. And I think that's. If someone's bringing you into something and they already know who you are, don't change that. They're bringing you in because of what you've shown. And so I try to make sure that people feel really comfortable to just be that in my team, in the workplace, because I don't want them wasting mental energy on trying to be something different either. They need all that focused on their life and their job. Um, I think there's something beautiful about letting people just be imperfect. This stuff is not easy. I don't have it all figured out. And I don't want people to think that I do have it figured out. Because if you start to think that the people in the leadership roles above you have some magic superpower that you don't, you start to think, well, I'm not going to get there because I'm not this or that. Yeah, you will. You know, I don't have it figured out. I was telling you this morning. I, like, I didn't get. I didn't brush my hair this morning. I was running out the door. You think you have a plan, but if you have a kid, that plan goes out the window. Like, I don't have it all together. And I think it's really important to, uh, show people that you don't have to be perfect. You don't have to have some incredible background. I mean, I went to state school. Uh, I don't have any, but you can get there. You really can. And we're not any more superhuman than anybody else, so that was a long, rambling answer. But I just think just being who you are is good for business. You're not wasting time on stuff you don't need to. And it's so much more fulfilling just to be able to be a human. I don't know. That was a long answer, but a phenomenal answer.

Speaker B: And I'll say. And I could talk to you absolutely all day, every day. Caitlin, I love you.

Speaker A: You. Ah, I love you, too.

Speaker B: You come across as a superhuman, but you make us all feel like we can be superhuman. And so that's the great part. Um, Caitlin, I am so, so grateful to you for coming and having this conversation. Thank you for joining us for Change makers.

Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for. Thanks for the invitation. And, um, I just couldn't love communications more. So thrilled to be here.

Speaker B: Thank.

Speaker A: You.