Reinventing Your Brand Voice: Laurel Carpenter on Authentic Messaging & Entrepreneurial Clarity

Laurel Carpenter: Foreign.

Brandon Cassiano: This is Casual Battle. Today's guest is somebody who embodies one of my favorite themes on the show. The courage to reinvent, the discipline to listen deeply and the skill to tell stories that actually sound like you. I'm talking about Laurel Carpenter, co founder of Pearl Consulting NYC and one of the most thoughtful, intuitive brand voice strategists working today. Before she ever stepped into the world of copywriting and messaging, she spent over 25 years in the nonprofit sector in social services. Her career was built on listening, learning and supporting people through real human experiences, not marketing trends and buzzwords. Now when she finally pivoted into entrepreneurship, she brought the same empath driven approach with her. Today, she helps founders and service based businesses find the gem in their story, the part of the message that's true, distinct and deeply aligned. What I love about her work is that she doesn't sell fluff. She isn't here to convince you that you need more jargon, more SEO stuffing, uh, or a shinier facade to grow your brand. Instead, she helps you uncover the clarity, voice and initiative that really already exists inside of you. The voice you've already or usually ignored because you've been too busy trying to sound like somebody else. With her background in social work, her experience in community leadership, and her willingness to pull wisdom from every chapter of her life, from academia to running a Vietnamese newspaper, to leading cross sector initiatives, Laurel brings a rare blend of perspective and practicality to the world of branding. M Today we're going to talk about reinvention, authenticity, ideal clients, ethical messaging, and why most people's biggest branding problem is invisibility and its clarity. So if you're like me, a creative or a founder, coach, freelancer, or somebody sitting on the edge of a new chapter wondering how do I tell my story in a way that feels true? You're in the right place. So, Laurel, thank you so much for being here today on the show. I'm so excited to have you. Tell me a little bit, how about how your day's been so far? It's been really bleak here in the Charlotte area. How is it where you are?

Laurel Carpenter: It's rainy and gray. I'm in New York City in Washington Heights. And, um, but it's cozy in my apartment. I live in an old art deco building and it's in the land of Lin Manuel, Miranda and Hamilton. It's Washington Heights. Um, so it's been a good day. Yeah.

Brandon Cassiano: So as I kind of mentioned in the intro, there are a lot of great elements with you that I think can really Serve the casual Babel audience, which is why I was so excited for you to reach out when you did. Um, and I think a lot of it's going to really focus on kind of your bread and butter, which is about the clarity in self identifying, but also, also touching on, uh, elements regarding the right clientele. Working with people that work best for you. Because it's actually a conversation I've been hearing about a lot. But to kick off, I'd love to hear about how you ventured into the world of social work, what that kind of started off like for you, and then at what point you kind of saw either a need or an opportunity to pivot into the more marketing and social branding work that you do now.

Laurel Carpenter: Great. Um, I love that question. So I actually have, uh, entered the world of social work because I often found myself in the position of being a therapist in my real life. And um, to be honest, and a lot of people in the field could probably relate to that comment because many of us have been a therapist for our own families or in sort of a parentified role. And that's good and bad because, you know, caring about people is great, but sometimes it can come at a cost to your own sanity and your own, you know, well being and health. So, um, when I joined the world of social work, I started out actually working for a, uh, domestic violence shelter. That was one of my first jobs. I was an on call staff member. And that was many, many, many years ago. That was a pretty, um, challenging job because people were, um, as you can imagine, into very difficult situations. And we had to be very careful about the security of the facility. And then later on when I worked for a behavioral health care company which um, was the beginning of managed mental health care. And I worked as the executive assistant for the psychiatrist. So I got to see a totally different side of mental health. And there was one day we hired social workers and there was one day at work where our employee assistance program got a call from a suicidal person who was, who had a gun and she was able to talk him out of shooting himself or anyone else. And I remember thinking, while social workers are so amazing, that like people could do that kind of work. And you know, she was just on the phone with him. And anyways, I was very inspired by seeing those social workers in action. And when I went to graduate school, I got a master's degree in social work. And my first internship was actually a very challenging one. It was at the Legal Aid Society. And I had to go to 100 Center street to just like an episode of Law in order to interview people that were m in the holding pens for criminal court. They've probably changed some of the way this works. But I had an older and wiser colleague in my internship say to me, you know, when you're working, I was struggling with, like, how to connect with some of the clients I was working with, because I had not really worked in the criminal justice system before, and a lot of them, um, drug cases. And he said, I have a suggestion for you, Laurel. I find it works better when you're interviewing a client to, say, pretend that your life is a movie, and you're gonna just tell me the story of your life like you're the star of the movie. And that's how he would start his conversations with people who were awaiting sentencing, because it kind of put them in the position of control. And then he would branch off from there, depending on what they gave him. Because our job was to write something called a pre pleading memorandum for the court, where we would have to. We were on the criminal defense side, so we'd have to make a case. My client is. Could go to drug treatment, or they could go to a program instead of being thrown in jail. And so that advice to have the client be the star of the movie and tell their story that way was very effective, and I adapted it to my own purposes, but that was what I ended up. Um, that's the approach I ended up taking. And I remember there was a woman that I worked with who had a long history of substance abuse. She was a heroin addict, and she, um, needed a treatment program, um, that respected her culture. Um, I don't want to get too deep into the weeds of that because I don't want to talk about people's identities. But, um, we found her a program that was Spanish speaking, a drug treatment program. And her daughter helped me to get her into the program. And even though that was a very difficult internship and not all the cases turned out that good, that woman did go and get help, at least at that time. And I remember thinking to myself that, you know, like, a small victory, it was just so important. But that storytelling approach worked much better than a judgy approach or, like, a less open approach. Um, so I learned from that experience. And to be honest, at that time, I never would have thought that I would have ended up in branding or marketing. I always have been a writer. But that, uh, is like a whole separate part of the conversation, Right?

Brandon Cassiano: Quite the pivot, for sure.

Laurel Carpenter: Yeah. And I'm happy to talk about that. But I also. I want to make sure I give you some space to ask your questions.

Brandon Cassiano: Yeah, no, no, no. And I'm actually. I'm. I'm actually, um, quite intrigued that you mentioned kind of starting off about how caring about people is great, but it can, I guess, depending on us internally, can. Can come at a higher cost than we anticipate. I kind of spoke a little bit about an experience of mine yesterday. I grew up with a lot of friends. I. I don't know what the gravitas was, but I tended to gravitate towards friends who happen to, you know, deal with certain substance abuse or depression, um, or they had, you know, home issues, this or that. Um, but for me, it was always from a very compassionate perspective, and we had already connected on a very human level. So those factors, for me, even though to other people seem like, why would you associate with them, they have those problems, but it's like, that's not. That's not the core of them. To me, I just. Those are like external elements. But that, um, to me, kind of taught me to care a lot, to be like, you know, I. You can't. It's a lot more difficult than a lot of people think to immediately establish or cosign guilt or. Or stigma to someone just because they're experiencing this or that typically heavily publicized issue. Right. So that actually every single one of

Laurel Carpenter: us knows someone who struggles with substance abuse. I can tell you that right now. Yeah, there are, uh, family and friends and, you know, not just someone random on the street. And I feel that that is really what you said is so important because, um, we. And it's a very big issue right now, and. And it often is very stigmatized. So you're. I'm totally with you on that.

Brandon Cassiano: Yeah. And to your point, it actually kind of got me into a. A bit of a hot, hot, uh, moment a little while ago where a lot of perceptions were improperly skewed on what my involvement was. But it was me trying to help out in a situation that just did not work out that way. Um, but I totally get, um, that kind of core that. That draw for you. Um, but. Yeah, but from moving through that, so

Laurel Carpenter: easy to go wrong within the helping place. I mean, like, that it's not always easy and people sometimes take advantage or you can be manipulated. And, you know, that's what happens. It's also part of the disease of addiction. Like, it's, you know, that can play a role in people, strong role in people's behavior. And that's why there's the whole making amends part of the 12 steps. Anyways, right. Uh, I feel like no one has ever asked me about this on a podcast and I love that you're asking. So it's a really great, um, yeah, I appreciate that we could talk about the realness of that.

Brandon Cassiano: So well. And a lot of times a lot of my uh, interviewees tend to have had really huge life shifting moments that fit into what prompted them into an entrepreneurial direction. So it's, it's, it's more, it's pretty common on this show at the very least to touch on, on a story that involves the someone's passing or uh, just a huge negative kind of origin that someone found a way to pivot from and or empower themselves into moving to a more productive, innovative way of life. Um, I'm, now I'm always very like, you know, I will not poke the bear. I don't like to ever poke or dig unnecessarily. It's only like I will touch base if it has relevancy to the entrepreneurial insights that ultimately we want to provide. So, so long as it's relevant, that's the only time I will like, touch on, touch your subjects essentially.

Laurel Carpenter: But you can ask me anything you want. I, I don't know if you know and I, I'm, I, I mean honestly, in the world of journalism, people poke the bear all the time. It's not a big deal.

Brandon Cassiano: Oh, I know, but it's like I'm not, I'll be people in journalism, um,

Laurel Carpenter: I know we could go on a whole thing about that, but I'm happy to talk about that shift.

Brandon Cassiano: Oh my goodness. Um, but for you. So you've, you've been through, you've been in social work, so you've worked with people who had, I'll term as more circumstantial circumstance based difficulties to work through. And then you moved into um, ah, behavioral work. And so from there what was, was there a particular moment or was this kind of like a growing push or draw or need from you that eventually brought about this pivot into branding and storytelling?

Laurel Carpenter: There were two moments, two pivotal moments and one was that that internship I mentioned to you, I, um, I was in graduate school and my supervisor at the time and I had some difficulties getting along. He'd never had a student and I was a kind of a person that would ask a ton of questions and sometimes I think I annoyed him. And long story short, we ended up having a disagreement about something that happened or it was, I Left him a voicemail that was negatively interpreted and they asked me to leave the field placement and I had to defend myself in front of a committee of students that like, where they basically, it's like kind of a mini trial of the school. I had been working in the criminal system and I had to defend my actions to, towards my supervisor, like, and that I had questioned him in a. I should never have left a voicemail saying I don't. I. He felt like I hadn't taken responsibility for something. And it was a huge lesson for me because, yeah, uh, um, I ended up like having to get someone to defend me on the committee on students. And fortunately my advocate was very much in my corner and pointed out all the things I had done in the internship that were right and I owned up to my mistake. So. But at that moment I felt like maybe this social work thing, like maybe there, maybe I shouldn't be doing this. Maybe there's something about me that isn't appropriate for this field. But uh, they accepted my, my plea or whatever and they allowed me to go on to my next internship which was in a homeless drop in center. And my supervisor actually said to me, I don't know, your school like seem to really be on like kind of a witch hunt to deal with like student issues or something. And I felt like you were, you were um, not presented like accurately to me. So he said, you're a really good student and I want to, I want you to stay here and learn from this internship. So long story short, that was like the first sign that like maybe m. I should be picking a different career. But I, I did continue on and I ended up working in the mental health field. I, I became a director. Long story short, I ended up finding a great place to work, a mental health agency here in the city that I worked for for over 10 years and was promoted from case manager into a long story. After many like iterations, I was promoted into a director level role because, um, I, that's just what I gravitated towards. I didn't end up becoming a therapist. And so I ended up working there for 10 years and then working for a couple different agencies. And in my last role, the. One of the things I had found was true in every single nonprofit where I worked is that people very much resisted change, even if there was like a program that was going to make their lives better, like an electronic health record program or uh, like a learning management system where you could take some classes online. I ended up getting involved in technology innovation in every organization Where I worked, the last place where I had gotten hired, uh, there were the program that I was suggesting be implemented. I had done some research on it and learned that a lot of agencies had struggled to implement it and that it was going to cost a lot of money and that maybe it wasn't the best choice. And when I presented that to my boss, he still wanted to go ahead with the project. Even though in the office where I was stationed, there were people, like, with broken chairs, there were mice. Like, they didn't want to invest in the infrastructure of, like, the office, the environment, making their employees comfortable and safe and happy in some way. And there's this martyrdom that happens in the social work field where people are just expected to put up with these terrible conditions in the name of service. Going back to early in our conversation, the straw that broke the camel's back was coming into the office one day and there were mice in the sink and people were fighting with each other about how we were going to clean it up.

Brandon Cassiano: Yeah.

Laurel Carpenter: And I was like, this isn't how I want to spend the rest of my life.

Brandon Cassiano: That's fair. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Laurel Carpenter: Spend the rest of my life dealing with this.

Brandon Cassiano: It reminds me of, um. I don't know if You're a Melissa McCarthy fan, but it reminds me of the movie Spy she did with. Um.

Laurel Carpenter: Haven't seen that one. But I do like Melissa McCarthy.

Brandon Cassiano: It's. It's so funny because she's a, she's a. She's a secret agent. But, ah, her. Her office that she is connected to throughout the show that's giving her intel. They have these, like this bat infestation. And so a lot of the times they're trying to give her information. Bats keep flying around and landing on people. Um, so that's what came to my head when you talked about the rats in the sink. That's, that's, that's insane. My goodness. But also, um, earlier when you were talking about how you had to present your case to this committee. I don't know. Uh, it's like, to me it sounded a lot like Mike Ross having to face the, the ethics committee. I don't know if you ever watch suits or not. Um, but no, but I heard that's a good show. It is a good show. I, I came into. I come in. This was very, very late. And, uh, that show, I think, was on the air 2012 and 2018, 19, something like that. I only kicked it up a couple of winters ago and I binged it. The whole thing. I've binged it like two or three times now the whole thing's on Netflix. So if you, if you have that and you, if you're looking for a new binge show, I would definitely suggest uh, uh, suits. That's a pretty good one, but. Wow, that is a uh, crazy. Yeah, I totally get needing to pivot. I was, I was hoping more that it was like a, ah, brand new calling that you just had to depart. Not so much that there were mice in the same. But I'm happy that there's more to

Laurel Carpenter: the story than that.

Brandon Cassiano: Okay, okay.

Laurel Carpenter: There's more to it. It was not just the mice in the sink.

Brandon Cassiano: Okay, okay.

Laurel Carpenter: There was more to it. So I had been part of. And I, I uh, had been feeling a growing sense of dissatisfaction over the years because all of the projects I was involved in, there was always pushback. Like you're trying to make us do things differently. And I myself was on a self discovery journey. I had been in therapy and I decided that that wasn't really working for me anymore. And I joined this women's empowerment community. And in the women's empowerment community they were really focused on like women asking for what we want in life and like making, making it clear like that we wanted to lead lives that were pleasure filled instead of like complaining or instead of uh, being unhappy and that community. I met a coach and she had me do some exercises where I was writing about like I had to write a letter to someone in my career that had disappointed me as part of that exercise. And I wrote a letter to my internship supervisor, Legal Aid, because of the, like he had. The way I had been treated there was really pretty awful. Like they were really um, not kind to their interns and they would let like the lawyers run all over us. And they were. When I spoke up about it, I was punished. So I wrote him a letter and she was like, are you sure you still want to be in this field? Like it sounds to me like you need a change. And at the same time, when I was working at that last agency, we had this IT consultant that came in to help out with the project I was working on. And he had his own business doing, managed IT consulting for all these clients. And he was like a visionary type person. He had done a lot of self development. Uh, he was in the Entrepreneurs organization. I'm not sure if you ever heard of that, but there's a book called Traction by Gino Wickman that a lot of EO people use. And he was like, he just immediately we just clicked and he saw some potential in me. And he was like, have you ever considered running your own business, like, with your partner? Because one thing that you mentioned earlier, you said, I work for a Vietnamese newspaper. That's not. That's not true. My partner was a writer for the New York Times, my life partner. And he said, have you ever thought about going into business with Charles? He can write the stuff and you can talk to the clients. And I was like, no. Who. Who am I to be an entrepreneur? And he was like, I think you can do it. So, like, we wrote a blog post for him, like, um, on spec. We just did it because Charles had worked for the New York Times for 20 years, and he had done all of these, you know, articles and posts and everything. And I remember that Josh was like, I think you two could have a business together. And he really believed in us. And we became his first clients. He. Hi. Well, he was our first client. Sorry. He was our first client. And he hired us to blog for him and do marketing activities. So we decided to give it a try. I was actually, um. And I left that job, which is actually one of the mistakes I made, I would say. I would not advise for people that are considering starting a new business to just leave their job. Yeah, I did that. And I have a partner that we both had savings, which made it a little bit easier to do, but those savings run out, uh, after a while. So we got hired by this guy that was an IT consultant at my job who believed in us and thought we would be, you know, good bloggers for him. And he wasn't wrong. They were our first clients. And then he sold the company to someone who hated marketing people. And we were like, what are we going to do? Should we keep going? Should I try to find a full time job? And the truth is that I joined a BNI Group, which is a networking group you've probably heard about.

Brandon Cassiano: I've been through a couple chapters.

Laurel Carpenter: Yeah, I got business from my first meeting, which is unheard of for a copywriter. That's, like, really unusual. So we, um, ended up getting more clients from our BNI group, honestly. And it was before the pandemic. Things changed tremendously. We used to blog and do social media content, mostly LinkedIn, for our clients. And then there was like, a whole other pivot we've made since that time. But, like, you know, it all started with one person who was like a visionary that inspired me to try something different with my life. And the seeds had already been planted by my coach. So, um, and I remember my boss at the time who, honestly, I'd noticed recently, my boss from that job I left has unfriended me on LinkedIn, which I feel badly about, but, like, I can't not tell my truth about it. Yeah, he, um, he said to me, you're never going to make it. Your business won't succeed because you didn't come from a tech background like, you know, a lot of other people. You didn't come from the ad agency world. And I was like, hold my beer.

Brandon Cassiano: Right. Hey, you know, that's, that's, That's. To me, that's a worthy loss that was going to happen at some point anyway.

Laurel Carpenter: Yeah, it wasn't a death in the family. It was. But I did have a revelation that this wasn't the way I wanted to keep living my life. And m. The confluence of things, all that combined together were what inspired me to start our business. And, yeah, we've been doing it for seven years now.

Brandon Cassiano: Congratulations on the landmark on the, on the, the consistency. That's. It's, uh. As someone who is currently in, technically their third year, but still ground level, I applaud you. I'm still trying to figure out those. Those particular kinks. But moving into that work now, was your focus is, as your website says, finding the magic in your message is, was that an immediate revelation on a focus for you, or was that something that kind of came through a few of your first clients, or how did that come about?

Laurel Carpenter: Well, honestly, it came through from the clients because we had blogged and we had done social media content. We also had the pandemic that happened. So we had gained a foothold and a reputation in our BNI group, and we were getting clients when the pandemic came m along. We worked with a lot of smaller businesses and solopreneurs, and a lot of them decided that blogging was not what they wanted to spend money on. So we did resumes and LinkedIn profiles. The life coach in my BNI group was like, I have several clients who need your help. I think you should, you know, you be well served to help people with resumes. One of my jobs, I had worked in the HR department of my agency, and I had hired and I had reviewed resumes and all of that stuff. And so we did that, and I still do LinkedIn content. But, um, the magic in the message actually came from a client we'd been working with who, um, I knew personally, and she was like a. A coach. And she had approached me about rewriting her website copy and she said, I feel like I don't just want to rewrite the copy. I feel like I need a tagline. I need some catch, some way for people to connect with my message and my mission and all that stuff. So we started doing more of a brand messaging process with her that I honestly like kind of put it together like on the fly at the time. But the more that we worked with clients, um, the more we realized that people don't just need a website rewritten. They actually often really need, like to know their target audience and they need a core idea that's going to differentiate themselves from other people. That's where, and that's where a lot of people get stuck is how am I different from everyone else? I can tell you my value proposition, what I do, who I do it for, but the what makes me different. That's where people get stuck. And I have a lot of thoughts about that, about finding the differentiator. So we ended up developing this process that has evolved since we first started. We um, um, we do, we started with a brand archetype process. A lot of people have heard of brand archetypes. It's um, imagine like Nike's Just do it. That tagline, it's one of the most well known taglines in the world. That's the hero archetype. So a lot of people think of archetypes as being like sort of like a one archetype that you relate to, like the hero or the magician. Like Tony Robbins is a magician for example.

Brandon Cassiano: Right.

Laurel Carpenter: But we created a process where people take an initial quiz and they're in one of three archetypes. They're in three different archetype categories usually. So like maybe they're the creator, the sage and the rebel or something. And we would help people figure out what archetype triad they had and how that would sound in copy. Since that time, we've actually evolved our approach even more because that was helpful for some people, but a little abstract. And so the more we did branding work with our clients, the more we learned that where most people are missing is the positioning piece. We have a three part framework, positioning, clarity and personality. So archetypes, people tend to see it as more of a personality thing, although it's about values and about what values are most important to you. It's right good to know that piece. But what we have learned is that like a lot of people, especially small business owners who are moving from DIY efforts that they've put together themselves, which is how most people start when they're trying to refresh their messaging. They're like I, I really want to reach the right audience. I really want to make sure that I'm targeting the right people. But sometimes they haven't talked to their best fit clients about what makes them so different. Why did you hire me? What solutions did I provide? How did I help you solve your problems? Is my approach different from other people? Because usually there is some reason why people chose you over someone else and it's oftentimes it's like the feeling they get from you, the way you make them feel. It's about the way you're messaging your offer. So that's positioning and it's made up of your values, what your clients say about you. And like sometimes there are market forces that play into the positioning which um, like I often recommend that clients talk to their strategic advisors, their close circle about like what trends are happening in the market as well. But we now focus more on helping people figure out what makes them different, their positioning first. So it's evolved since our first clients.

Brandon Cassiano: Mhm.

Laurel Carpenter: Yeah.

Brandon Cassiano: Now have you ever had clients who, and I'm asking for personal reasons for, um, this one I've had clients who had a very clear messaging on their website or their platforms. They had a, they had a specific uh, target audience verbalized but kept getting leads that were just, that were somehow outside of that. And for context I'll say some. I'm a content consultant on my, on my end and my focus is to work with growth minded entrepreneurs, people who are looking to scale, people who want to find opportunities for investments and getting capital. And what I've noticed somehow is uh, the leads I get are actually people who are post retirement, non business owners who are looking to become podcasters, which is another consulting service I do offer. And I've been surprised, not that I'm mad about it, but I've been so surprised because at no point on any of my promotions, social media, my paid campaigns, my website is verbiage dedicated towards them. But I, these leads keep finding me through ChatGPT and I'm like not mad about it. It's still a cool client potentially. But how, how, how what got cross? What happened in the interim? So have you ever dealt with a situation like that before?

Laurel Carpenter: All the time and I think it happens to a lot of people. It is totally common. Um, so I think that I would guess that your, your audience you're attracting is seeing you as a podcaster and that they're also seeing themselves in whatever messaging you have that they're thinking I want to grow as an entrepreneur. They're not. You know, most people don't say anything about age when they're, you know, marketing on their website. Or, uh, you know, I find that, like, you know, if you're. Sometimes people get offended if you put like an age specific specifics. It could also be the language that you use. Like, if you use millennial expressions or Gen Z expressions or something, and you happen to be in that demographic, then maybe that population may be more drawn to your messaging than maybe the language that you're using. It appeals to that aud that, you know, they see themselves in your words and they think, here's a nice young man that can help me with all of that stuff.

Brandon Cassiano: Yeah, it's funny you mentioned that.

Laurel Carpenter: I actually have to say I think it's super cool that older entrepreneurs are attracted to your messaging because they need help just like anyone else. And in fact, maybe more so. And if they're willing to listen to you, that's even better.

Brandon Cassiano: Yeah. And like I said, I'm not mad at all. And so far, the people that I've met who are interested and I have, and I have contracted one of them, they're so cool. And, and it's funny you mentioned the, the verbiage part of it, um, as far as, like, millennial or, like, you know, any particular jargon that are, that's like, generation focused. Because when it comes to the podcast, this show, I used to say this is the delve into the young professional culture. Um, and I did earlier on get some comment, like, I would get reached out to by somebody maybe in their 40s or 50s. Like, I don't know if I'm young enough, but I'd love to be on the show. And so I did away with that. I don't really push that particular phrase too much anymore in the show promotion, but I have been fascinated by this current, um, phenomena. Now I'm kind of wondering, okay, should I pivot to just that, or should I find, um, some other way to further spruce it up? Or perhaps my going back to your work, maybe the verbiage I've attempted so far with the content consulting, um, is not perfectly aligned yet.

Laurel Carpenter: Um, there's also a million content strategists and content consultants out there. Whereas podcasting, uh, is seen as, like, I think, a specialized skill. I, I think, yes, there are a lot of podcasters too. But, like, I feel that that skill may be more in demand than the content strategy, which some people are also turning to AI to try to create for them.

Brandon Cassiano: Right, right.

Laurel Carpenter: And that way that in order to combat that, you have to have case studies on your site that speak to the clients that you're looking. You have to. That you're looking to attract. You have to tell stories of who you've helped and how with the content piece in order to get people to pay attention and never stop talking about it. Because, uh, algorithms are so that LinkedIn is just lousy with people that do content at this point.

Brandon Cassiano: Exactly. And I, um. Funny. So I'm currently actually also going through a master's program, uh, an accelerator program to get my master's in marketing. And I was just um, we recently had to use Google Trends for an assignment. Um, and I'd done this for another classmate's. Their case study company. We have to choose a company to follow all the way through the program and create a marketing campaign for them as the final. But after I use Google Trends for them, I'm like, let me do some Google Trends for, for me. And I decided to put in content consultant. Look at it for the past five years and then podcast consultant. Um, um, and so before you said what you just said, I would have, I would have not thought of that because as far as like Google Trends is concerned, content consultant is like a much higher. Well, no, that does make sense. I'm so sorry. I'm. I'm kind of eating my own words here.

Laurel Carpenter: That's okay. You can disagree with me. I'm always open to a new point of view.

Brandon Cassiano: Well, let me ask. I'll even share honestly. Let's see where is so like to your. To your point though. It's like. So if content consultant is a much higher. Is so much higher these days than. Yeah, it does cause podcast consultant to be a lot more specialized. So I was like m. Okay.

Laurel Carpenter: Because I was thinking maybe there are fewer of you.

Brandon Cassiano: Yeah. Not quite as many con. Not quite as many podcast consultants. So, so that's, that's definitely something for me to contemplate going forward. Which is I think I find very interesting.

Laurel Carpenter: But also, ah, I think if you're a content consultant, I want to tell you a little story that just happened to me. So one of my longest term clients I have, I started out as her. Well actually she hired me for brand strategy and messaging and eventually we wrote LinkedIn posts for her. Those posts did lead to more content opportunities, but only now is she hiring me as a content strategist because I have approved. I know her voice. I have a proven track record of helping, um, her get clients from her content and from LinkedIn and also other blog posts and articles we've written for her. And um, I think the role of content strategist is also something that people don't always understand right off the bat. Now that search said content consultant and I'd be very curious what people think they're getting when they Google content consultant. Like who is searching for a content consultant? And are they looking for someone to take my AI posts and make them shine when they're actually kind of shit. I just gotta be honest about that because, uh, you and I both know, I think that a content consultant will have a strategic plan that will not just be about executing on posts or. I'm not saying AI is all bad, but I'm not AI first, I'm more of a hybrid or manual same.

Brandon Cassiano: Yeah.

Laurel Carpenter: And I feel that sometimes content strategy that you would get from Claude or Chat could really lead you astray if you just implement it as it's spit out. And you and I both know that. But a lot of people don't and they're trying to do it themselves and wondering why it's not working. So I think you have to speak to their pain. Of what? Of those. If you want to get more into content consulting and get the right clients, I would definitely interview some people, either in your aspiring target market or the one you already have, that you've done content consulting for successfully, and say, what problems did I solve for you? What were you struggling with when you hired me? And if you don't have those clients right now, I would say, like offer to reciprocate in some way, try to reach out to your network and find people that are in that target market and ask like what their pain is and what problems that you can solve for them. Because I feel that that's the key to having a more successful strategy to attract the right people. That's what I find with all my clients. So I hope that helps in some small way.

Brandon Cassiano: No, that does. And to your point as well, back when I, so I chose to be. To make the consulting a, uh, thing because. And this kind of resonates also with your earlier beginning point of saying that you're always kind of a therapist. So for me, I've even since late college undergrad have always been called in as kind of a consultant person, um, usually to help people figure out their project, how to finish this, how to start this, where to find the tools to figure this out, yada yada. And that carried through into my first five plus years professionally. And so when I was let go of my last full time job. I decided, you know what, I've seen plenty. I know what I like, I know what I don't like. I know the um, atmospheres I want to be a part of, the ones that I don't. And I'm always being called into this. Can you assist me outside of work, work role? So let's just make consulting the function, let's make that the business. But uh, funny enough at the time I thought to myself, what's that title? Though? I didn't think consulting initially, but I spat out the phrase content consultant and I'm like, I'm not even sure if that's a word. It was, but I didn't, I had not myself for sure heard the term at the time. So I had to do some research myself to make sure that it was an industry term that people might be looking into, um, and learning more about it and kind of like what that demands before framing myself into that function. Um, I've been thinking, contemplating plenty of times over the years. Like, do I say with content consultant, do people not know what that is? To your point, do I find some other name for it that is more likely to be put into the Google query like this or that? Um, so no, but, no, that's, that's a lot of very helpful points you made.

Laurel Carpenter: So moving into content strategist, because I mean I feel that that word, the word strategist, that's a bigger word. Yeah, that, that word, it definitely, I mean I know a lot of B2B people and uh, I'm not really deeply involved in the B2B SaaS world. I mean I do know a lot of people who market in that world, in the world for content mean something really specific in that world. But outside of it, I feel like people may be confused a little bit about what that is. Like a person that doesn't just execute, but actually helps you find like an overarching strategy and metrics and you know, making sure that we're looking to see what works and what's not working and all of that stuff. I think content consultant feels a little softer to me. Like it's a little more undefined than content strategist. And I would imagine that like, it depends on like the market you're going for about the level of understanding of that term.

Brandon Cassiano: Right. And I think, and, and going off of that too, I think the word consultant, for those who have only ever heard it without delving into the word, I think it also can come off with. And this is another element that brings me to, to fluctuate back and forth on, on the branding of it. Consultant can also kind of sound like someone who has a limited level of involvement. Whereas I like to be involved or at least I like to station myself to be, uh, to provide different levels of involvement based on what somebody needs. So consultant kind of seems a bit more comparatively to like strategists it seems or sounds a bit more detached. So all those things are constantly boggling about in my head. So hopefully I'll figure it out soon, before the new year. Ideally, um, but moving into um, finding

Laurel Carpenter: ideal clients, I highly recommend interviewing some of your ideal clients, the ones you really want to target and seeing like, and getting real feedback from them. Like, and don't be afraid if someone, I mean I've had people, I had a someone who did become a client say to me, this doesn't resonate with me about your messaging. Now it's like, okay, that's fine. Like I'm not necessarily going to change it but like I will take that into account. And you know, it's not that you have to do absolutely everything that an ideal client says to do, but look for the common threads, you know.

Brandon Cassiano: And also there's also, it seems to be like a thin line between someone, uh, who seeks uh, to be just a strategist and what a client may really want. Which is more of at least virtual assistants taking on not only strategizing but also taking on all the creative lift that they don't have anyone else to do for them. So it's also trying to balance where those boundaries are. It's like um, and I did have a recent kind of little, little track of like maybe I will go for a virtual assistant. Maybe that's more appealing. I'll build a client base that way and then eventually build back into the consulting and shift the model eventually from there. Um, a lot of times I don't really know these days I'm not sure who wants what. But to your point, I pro. I probably will have to reach out to some of my people that I know and just be like, hey, no strings attached, love, set up a call, hit you with some questions. I'm trying to figure out the best way to frame myself for people in your sector. You don't have to fill out a lead form. Just want to learn from you what would appeal to you.

Laurel Carpenter: And thank you have been found in AI Search. Your skill set is already well above virtual assistant and people unfortunately. Well, I'm sorry. Virtual assistants do have great skills but the title I think makes people want to pay you less and your skill. I'm sorry, I'm very much an advocate of like people getting paid what they're worth. And I mean honestly, I want to ask you about getting found in LLM Search because that's something I'm moving into. But if you've been able to do that for yourself and you can do it for other people, that is a great skill set to promote.

Brandon Cassiano: See, here's the thing and it'll be exclusive to this conversation. I have no clue what I did. So I mean I, I mean I could look at because, because again most of my promotion is about the, the content consulting. So I'm talking about uh, developing your brand voice and figuring out your audience, connecting with them and you know, growth minded entrepreneurs. That's most of what I put out there. And so to think, and I, and I had to confirm this with a client of mine that I work with sometimes and collaborate with. I'm like, does AI pull the same SEO information that search, uh, uh, engine does? You know, is it, is it operating the same way that Google does?

Laurel Carpenter: No.

Brandon Cassiano: And he said, yeah, it should. And so I'm just thinking, I'm thinking to myself like, wow. So the verbiage I've placed on my podcast consulting page that I haven't touched in months despite is somehow outwinning all of the active work I'm putting out on my content consulting pushes. Um, so I guess, yeah, if you want, I would happily say I will send you the link to my podcast consulting page, copy, paste it and see if that works. Because um, well one, the client that I, that I did contract, she did say, um, she specifically looked for storytelling or storyteller based podcasting or people who facilitate digital storytelling. I do think that is a keyword that I do have once or twice on the website. And I think the lead that I also had a discovery call with two weeks ago mentioned the same thing. So that seems to be a pretty strong keyword at least for podcasting in general. So I think that's what happened. Um, but, so I was going to go into a different direction, but you mentioned this and now I have to, I gotta delve into this now about advocating for self worth and value because I've been through, I've had so many different actually voices on that topic come my way. I've had friends say earlier on when determining my own pricing for this or that, I'm like, you know, I don't know if there's a system behind that if there's an equation behind it, what's the magical formula? So I know what to do. And I had a friend who once said, price yourself and then put yourself where people can afford you. So don't undercut yourself, you know, by asking for 22 plus an hour. You know, hit yourself at least a good uh, two figure hourly amount and then place yourself in front of people who can afford that. And then recently I have, I've even fed all of my information to like all my background to chat GBT just to get ideas. Like so what do you think I should price and chat GPT based on uh, everything I fed them will be like, you should be charging anywhere from 70 to 135 an hour. I'm like, oh my God, that's incredibly different. And then I'm actually part of a, um, an accelerator right now for podcasting. And they're more like, well their, their approach is about like as you begin coaching and since I'm still kind of grounds level myself, I kind of consider me in that same space. But as you begin, start off in like the 30s to 40s to 50s area and then as you gain reputation, experience, then elevate yourself. So now I'm kind of in a quasi like oh my God, are my current prices too much? Are they too little? I don't know anymore. Um, if thoughts about that, uh, if

Laurel Carpenter: it would be helpful to share. And these can apply not just to you but to any, any marketing type people in the audience who happen to be listening. So um, we used to charge a per word rate and learn very quickly that people get very anxious when it's per word or even per hour that sometimes like it becomes a nickel and dime thing. How much are you going to do for this amount of hours? So last year I changed our model and I want to give her credit for this because this is her baby. There's a marketer named Pia Silva and she has a program, she has a podcast called no BS Agency. And she advocates that in order to help both the client and yourself that you do something called a lead product, which is where you create like a gateway offer that clients pay for. Like it could be anywhere from 250 to a thousand dollars. She recommends charging on the higher end. But to beta test it, it's better to have it be like 250 to 500 where they meet with you and you do like a roadmap, like whatever your specialty is, whether it's creating a whole website. For me, it's the messaging master plan. Maybe for you, it's a content strategy or a podcast jump start or something. They pay you a couple hundred dollars for, like a roadmap and also ideas about what they might do to expand their business to solve their. Whatever marketing problem they have. They have an option to DIY or to pay you to, you know, have a larger package that they work on with you. And the cost of that smaller offer gets folded into the price, they can subtract it from the larger offer. So, yeah, that way, if people decide to work with you, they've already gotten value, you've gained trust, and they can decide if it's a couple, you know, $500. Like, that was great, but, you know, I'm not going to move forward. Or, uh, this has happened for almost every client we've worked with. When we've done the gateway offer, people have been like, wow, this is great. I would not have thought of this myself. These are great ideas. And I want to hire you to do a website copy project, a brand voice guide, whatever it is that, you know. Uh, that's mostly what I do with people these days. But, like, that can really help people gain trust if. If it's like a smaller offer. And I think Pia always says that it needs to be something positive, like, not necessarily an audit where you tell them everything that's wrong. Like, you don't want to avoid telling people what could improve, but you also want to show, like, what's good about what they're doing and the positive. Because no one wants to be told your. Your branding sucks. Like, right? There's some people that can get away with that kind of, like, bro tone, but I would say most of us really can't. Like, most clients don't want to be placed in that position. So if you. I would avoid that hourly or that, like, per word, as we used to do with clients, in favor of, like, a small offer where you can really help people see how your mind works and how you can help them, and then they can have a choice, continue to work with you or diy. I did have one client decide to go the DIY route, and that was painful. But it does happen. And I really think that that way of doing business is much better for creatives because you also, you might look on, um, LinkedIn and see 8 million people who have responded to that. The post someone wrote about I need a copywriter. And then they have to go through hundreds of responses and you. The likelihood of you getting hired for that job, unless you're kind of well known in the industry. Is very small.

Brandon Cassiano: Right.

Laurel Carpenter: I feel like that is that gateway offer thing can be helpful not just for you as a business owner in establishing your worth, but it also helps the client because they didn't sign on for a huge package. And you also um, I feel that like the trend these days sometimes can be for people to think AI can do everything. And it also shows how you as a human can help them like with the human strategies that go beyond what ChatGPT or Gemini or Claude will do.

Brandon Cassiano: Right. Uh, and, and I do like the model you, you pitched and I think I have uh, something kind of built into what I currently have. I just might have to re orient some things. So what I'm doing now is because I don't like the month to month either. My big thing is that a month, especially for someone who's providing strategy, not necessarily taking on the creative lift, is that a month is not enough time to one, really build a relationship, which is, which is what I want to do. And then two, it's not enough time for really anyone to see any kind of numbers that you can reliably use as a measuring standard. So what I do currently is I have, I. All my services are structured as a 90 day sprint. So work with me, experiment with one fiscal quarter. It's 90 days to one, build a relationship, learn what it's like to work with me me learn what it's like to work with you. And then two, we um, can actually get some measurable numbers after a quarter. Be like, okay, we've seen this with this so far, let's set this as the standard and we can go from there. But also it kind of means on my end I kind of have what look like large packages to kick off with, to start off with, but when you bring the numbers down and split them over three months, it's a much smaller number. So I'll give my quick one, my content consulting which is three tiered, bottom tier is 12, uh, 54 the quarter. So that's just over 417 for the month which is a, sounds a lot nicer. Um, and it's only working about 10 hours a month or so. So a month focusing just on you, your strategy, your brand, all this other stuff. But I'm, I am wondering if that's even like, you know, does that make sense or, you know, I, I fluctuate a lot, which is probably part of my issue. I'm too willing to consider that I haven't found the right thing yet. And so, and that's just me. My issue Is as a personal creative. But.

Laurel Carpenter: But, you know, we all do experiment. I mean, I experimented with a content audit that I charged $350 for, and someone did pay me for the content audit, and I gave her too much information. Like, I actually spent hours and hours and hours on it, and it ended up not being. It was too much for her to digest. It should have made it more digestible. I learned from the experience. You know, she said, that was a lot of stuff you put in there. It's too much for me to implement. And I was like, oh, no. Like, I could. I could suggest. So we experiment with things is the point. We try, we sometimes fail, and that's okay. That's what makes us human. And I think, you know, it's, uh. We also can be. I also am a big believer with clients and being honest, like, I have not tried this before. I would like to offer you an introductory price so that, like, we can work on it together and you can give me feedback, and I will. You know, we'll. We'll see what works together and what doesn't work. And I know that's risky, but I actually find that people will respect you a lot more if you do that rather than, like. A lot of people have been burned by bad marketing advice that they paid a lot of money for. That has been my experience. I mean, I had a client who came to me who was a. She was, uh. She's a coach, an executive coach. And she focused heavily on dei and she needed to rebrand because she didn't want people attacking her on LinkedIn for those three little letters that have come to mean, you know, have unfortunately become out of fashion or whatever. And she. She was advised to rebrand in this very corporate way. And when she came to me, we ended up totally going all in on that. What she gets hired for is art retreats with executives who are struggling with conflict in their teams. And when she went all in on creativity changes the conversation. People got so interested in what she did. So she was still doing the same work, but it was rephrased somewhat differently. And it was just. She was given bad advice, I think, to be super corporate and not herself at all. And. But also she had to make a change. There had to be, like, a middle ground there somewhere, and that's what we came up with, and it worked. So.

Brandon Cassiano: Yeah. Moving towards the end of our time, unfortunately, uh, for today, I do want to ask you, um, regarding advice for solopreneurs and for creatives, um, without giving away the secret sauce, you know, what would you say are the first steps for them? Figuring out what their true aligned statement would be. What questions should people begin to ask themselves when they're trying to figure out what that magical message is?

Laurel Carpenter: Um, well, I usually advise people to start by just writing down what do you do, who do you do it for, and what makes you different. Try doing it without using AI if you can.

Brandon Cassiano: Yeah.

Laurel Carpenter: Um, because it will kind of get in your, get into your thoughts and it will be hard to forget. Try doing that. Um, for starters. And if you feel like you're really lost, like with how to describe those things, I really recommend interviewing a few ideal clients. That's my number one piece of advice. Interview three to five people you worked with before. I even have a set of questions that I'd be happy to share with the audience that you know in a download or something like that if need be. But ask them, what problems did I solve for you? Why did you choose me instead of doing nothing or instead of picking a competitor? What was it about m my approach? What was. It's also sometimes your vibe and your energy that definitely plays a role in why people sometimes hire you. It's not just the problem you solve. Ask m those questions. And if you're worried about doing that, most people that have enjoyed working with you do not mind taking 15, 20 minutes of their time to have this conversation, record it and, uh, ask their permission. My clients have learned so many amazing insights about themselves. I had a fractional CMO that learned that it wasn't her strategic plan people hired her for. It was that she worked for super high end law firms for years and she speaks fluent lawyer. I had a visual brand photographer who was trying to be really corporate in her marketing. And it turns out her best client hired her because of all of the joy that came forth in the photos she took. We put that into the brand messaging. So like it's. Those insights are invaluable and it will get you more excited about working on your brand. If you're feeling stressed about it or like, how do I stand out? Then asking those just a few questions of potential clients. And if you don't have those people or you feel like you want to aim for a different audience, um, ask on LinkedIn, ask on Instagram, Facebook, ask around in your networking groups or your peers. Like, I really want to get connected with people that fit this profile. How can I do that and maybe offer to reciprocate, offer a gift card, uh, like coffee offer, you know, to reshare something that, that A post that they did on social media or reciprocate in some small way, and that will go such a long ways. Gratitude goes. Goes such a long ways in this industry, in my experience.

Brandon Cassiano: Gotcha. Now, to close us, uh, out. One of the things that I like to focus on in the show is this cycle that we are all a part of where creativity feeds entrepreneurship, which feeds culture. And we've discussed your creativity in your entrepreneurship. How do you hope to see yourself and your work feeding into the culture of entrepreneurship, which will inevitably feed the next wave of creatives?

Laurel Carpenter: So I really believe in continuing creativity as a manual process, using brainstorming, using client insights, um, being unafraid to come up with new ways to brand and message that don't necessarily involve AI. And I think that if we continue to seek the human side of creativity and not rely overly on AI, that will shape the culture, that will shape entrepreneurship. Because right now the trend is to go AI first.

Brandon Cassiano: Right.

Laurel Carpenter: I'm not a hater. I can use it, and I do use it. But I really strongly believe in the value of human creativity and seek out the people that are finding ways to. To express themselves creatively. Like, I have a friend that wrote a whole book on creativity called Live Big. Her name is Rochelle Seltzer, and she paints. That's how she accesses her creativity in her coaching business. And she has a whole series of exercises she developed on her own, not from AI. I strongly encourage people to, to read, go to the movies, like, look at great art, try creating something on your own without, like, relying on the computer to do it. I feel that, like, we need to go back in time to, you know, to those kind of crafty things. And, um, uh, then also to find the communities where people will encourage you to do those things. I feel that that's really important and that we just can't rely entirely on AI and that if we, you know, like, I've heard about Gen Z, like, deciding they want a dumb phone and not a smartphone. And I know people who've decided to delete their Facebook account. It's like, that's a choice. It's a choice people make.

Brandon Cassiano: Yeah.

Laurel Carpenter: And I think that if more people make those choices to disconnect, we may see, like, a huge impact on entrepreneurship

Brandon Cassiano: and maybe even a nice surge of true originality as well.

Laurel Carpenter: I hope that helps answer the question.

Brandon Cassiano: No, it does. Thank you so much. I really was happy. I'm so happy to have you on the show. Uh, and we'll have to have you on again because these topics can go on forever.