178: Stop Mass Applying: How Carlos Got Hired in UX and Promoted to Senior Product Designer

Carlos: You know, I even had an app that you could swipe left, swipe right if you wanted to apply to a specific job. So I had that installed on my phone. I was just going a swipe right, swipe right. Just kind of like a dinner game.

Host: Hey, I'm Sarah Doody, a ah, user, researcher and product designer with 20 years of experience. In 2017 I noticed something a little ironic. UX and product people, despite being great at designing experiences for other people, often struggle to design their own careers. That's why I created Career Strategy Lab and this podcast to help you navigate your UX job search, grow in your current role and avoid skill and salary plateaus all in a chill and BS free way. So whether you're stuck in your job search or wondering what's next in your UX career, you're in the right place. Carlos, tell us a little bit about the role that you got hired into because, um, we're going to go deep into that process of getting hired, but let people know what you do and what you're doing right now.

Carlos: Yeah. Good afternoon everybody. My name is Carlos. As Sarah said, I'm a senior product designer or UX designer at a small uh, tech company called Covenant Eyes. Covenant Eyes has been around for 25 years and they basically help people with pornography addictions to uh, remove or battle that addiction via accountability. So basically a technology stem that pairs you up with another person and that other person has access to all of your device activity. Devices, activity, laptop, cell phone. And they uh, kind of keep you accountable to not you know, going to these adult explicit sites. So it's a faith, faith based company meaning a lot of our demographics or people that are in the market are Christians. So um, a lot of that has to do with you know, your uh, uh, what do I call it, the, your identity as a Christian. So that's who, that's the type of people that we serve. And I, I'm a senior UX designer for this company and I'm in charge of the flows, both apps, uh, design and so forth. So that's, that's the role I have now and this is the role I got hired because of, because going through the CSL program. So.

Host: And that was in 2023, right, that you got hired there as a product designer. Yeah. And now you're a senior product designer, right?

Carlos: Correct. Yeah, I got, I got uh, within the year I got promoted. Yeah.

Host: Amazing, Amazing. All right, we're going to dive into everything related to like how did you even get promoted but also get hired. But One question that I think is really important is what were you doing before you joined Career Strategy Lab? Um, whether that was you'd been DIYing your job search or you did some other program.

Carlos: Yep, very similar experience. DIY it. I think that I would have, anything would come out of, uh, this friend because I was basically applying to, I don't know, this was back in 2023, multiple positions a day. And I even had an app that you could swipe left, swipe right if you wanted to apply to a specific job. So I had that installed on my phone. I was just going a swipe right swap. Right. Just kind of like a Tinder game. Uh, it. If I ever found something that was kind of very, very interesting, I feel like right along my experience I would actually DM um, someone within the company and try to get, you know, some, some type of leg up through there. But again that it wasn't necessarily their approach because what ended up happening is I just looked desperate trying to like asking for a job immediately. You know, you know, go, go for the job immediately. And that didn't work out. I didn't, I didn't even get any responses on them because it's not meant to work like that. And I was just basically a lot of busy work. I'm feeling busy and feeling like I'm doing all these things, but none of it really turned into an even a callback. So that's the state of the unit before, um, CSL came across my board and realized that, hey, maybe I'm doing something wrong. I gotta, I gotta. I have so much to learn. So I started investigating csl.

Host: I, I'm curious if, you know, in hindsight, right. It's always interesting, but was there a specific kind of tipping point or moment that kind of just hit you in your tracks a little bit and you were like, wait a second, like what I'm doing is not working.

Carlos: Uh, yeah, sure. The, well, the ghosting, like applying to a lot. So let's say if you apply to 100 and you don't hear from anybody but two people, and those two people are reject, uh, letters or automated reject letters, that tells you there's something here that I'm doing wrong. Right. You know, I'm not even hitting a 1% chance here of even an interview. So that was like the moment for me. Like, I'm not hitting an interview and I know I have a lot to give. Like, I know I'm a good UX designer, uh, but I'm not really positioning myself in the right manner. So that was the thing, like seeing all of these applications kind of just stay dormant or reject it at, uh, the get go. That was, for me, like, there's something wrong that I'm doing. It's not that there's no value in me, it's that I'm doing something wrong and I need to learn what that is.

Host: Yesterday I was just thinking to myself on something that someone had said about Career Strategy Lab, meaning they said, it really feels like an operating system for your career. And I'm curious what either of your reactions to that kind of parallel are.

Carlos: Yeah, I think where what comes to mind is that is I agree with the operating system, but it's not an operating system for just applying to jobs. I really think it's an operating system for selling anything. And basically when you're applying for jobs, you're selling your services to another company. And it's really something that I guess took with me and not just apply to, um, job hunting, but actually in my role. Like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna do a presentation. I think we should pursue, uh, some opportunity. Well, how do I. How do I really sell this? Or how do I send the message out? And a lot of the voices from the coaches back then keep repeating in my head, like, okay, is this schemable and readable? Is this schemable and scannable? And like, I'm going through the same motions I did, you know, three, three years ago, but now in a total different area with the same operating system. But now it's not for job hunting. Now it's for, like, how do I sell this better? How do I communicate this better? Sell. Sell might be a little of a dirty word, but, like, communication is key, right? And that, that is a game that's operate. That's an operating system for communication, for sure.

Host: I'm, I'm curious, Carlos, um, to hear a little bit about your journey to getting promoted. Um, did you initiate that? Did they initiate that? And did anything from what you did in Career Strategy Lab, um, you know, allow you to make, um, that happen?

Carlos: Uh, yeah. So I initiated that conversation. And that was very, very early on when I got hired. So I got hired as a, uh, level two, some technical. I got hired level two and I joined. I immediately realized I think I can, you know, I think I am operating at a level three, but I need to demonstrate that. So I started putting together evidence. And, uh, the way I collected the evidence and presented the evidence was all just kind of in the same operating system that I learned through the csl like what is, what are my evidence of facts, how do I present those, where do I organize those, where do I keep those? Um, have a spreadsheet keeping tabs of what each evidence is, where I'm at. And these are all kind of um, um, muscles that I'm repeating because of csl. So it was just initiating and then also gathering the research and then evidence um, of what I'm doing right, and how I, you know, I'm well positioned for a promotion. Um, but it was initiating that and having the confidence in myself that that was something that I could attain. And that communication part of confidence, I think that was also given to me, uh, through csl.

Host: I, I love hearing about that because I haven't heard the, the promotion part of your journey at your current company. But I think it's a really important point to emphasize because one question that comes up, and maybe you were thinking about this also, but like what is the return on investment of uh, career strategy lab? And for you it was getting hired in 2023, but now you've used what you learned and got promoted and. Feel free to not answer this, but did you see a salary increase? You don't have to tell us what it was, but did it go up at least?

Carlos: Yeah, yeah. On both scenarios. On the hiring part and on the promotion part. On both. Both scenarios or yeah, from m A financial sense, uh, it already paid off, uh, even within the first, um, the first transition. Uh, but more than the money, the financial. I think there's also like a uh, return investment of, of confidence and just finding the right spot. And I don't think that the company that I'm at is, is by far the best company I've worked for. But it's not in terms of just financial upside, but it's also in terms of culture and the things that I get to work on and the people that I get to work with. Uh, those all things so intangible. But I wouldn't have gotten here had I not gone through the process of discerning what is it that I really wanted to do. Look at the companies here, basically the CSL process, even just addressing what do you want to work on? Like what are the ideal companies that you want to work with. And I wasn't aiming at Covenant Eyes when I was doing this. I was aiming at, you know, these high visibility tech companies. But through my way of like analyzing this and doing the work, I realized that hey, this is actually a good fit for what I want to do. And it was, you know, um, it was a good return on investment. So I'm trying to say both financially also professionally.

Host: One question that comes to mind, um, and I'm asked this all the time is, is Career Strategy lab for me if I am, you know, a mid or senior level UX person. And I think one of the concerns people have is like, how is it going to be coexisting in career Strategy lab with people who have five years of experience and people who have 15 or 20 years of experience And I'm curious if who, um, could you share any reflections or insights about like that um, community element of Career Strategy Lab and how that was for you?

Carlos: So back then being a mid tier level designer, I think that I appreciated the fact that there were other people uh, farther along their journey and were even maybe applying for leadership positions because in the community really what you get is a sense of, or you get other people to help you. And sometimes I'll post a question or I'll even post my case study and then I'll have someone that was in a hiring capacity, maybe a leader, look at it and say, okay, this is what the things that I would change. And this is from a perspective of someone that is actively hiring and knows kind of the drill. So I really appreciated that, that it was not only you and the coaches helping you, but there are also people with a, uh, leadership perspective that are actively hiring or have hired before give you that additional perspective. And even now I don't frequent it as often, but I'm still part of the alumni group and that's been super helpful. Um, I can go into a little story of uh, um, meta knock on the door last year and they set me up for an interview and again I had to do a whole case study. But guess what? The case study didn't feel as heavy because I already have a lot of the things that I needed thanks to csl. But to my point, I reached out to some people in the alumni and they helped me revise the case study even years after me, uh, being in csl because I still have access to the alumni and know you, you can still find support uh, in those groups. So I really like the fact that it's a whole mix of people that are brand new and people that are more uh, experienced and at the same time you can also help others. Sometimes I'm going there and people are asking for help on their case study and I come in and help them and provide my feedback. So it's very collaborative and something that still exists. So things super helpful to have Both hands.

Host: It reminds me of like a college experience, right? I mean like, you get out of it what you put into it. And if you choose to be proactive and connect with other people that like, are similarly motivated or have similar goals or similar career stage or whatever it is, um, you can really make a lot of progress, but also make potentially lifelong friends who you might end up working with someday. You never know.

Carlos: I agree. From time to time I would post an opening on my company, say, hey, and um, I'll post it on the alumni launch and also a career launch. And you know, you know, just there's opportunities there and the, the, the networking that happens is, is very valuable, the networking alone.

Host: So yeah, so far we've had four people get hired at Liberty Mutual. I didn't realize this till a couple of months ago and then I looked at the data and I was so surprised. But yeah, like one person get hired, gets hired somewhere and then they come back because they know the, if they can help their company or team hire people faster, that is a win. Right? And oftentimes they find like people in Career Strategy Lab, um, have more buttoned up resumes, portfolios, etc. They're ready to go and it can reduce that time to hire, which is enormous if you've ever been involved in hiring. I'm curious again, back to hindsight, but I'm curious, you know, thinking back to your whole experience in Career Strategy Lab or maybe even after too, is there uh, something you learned in Career Strategy lab or something you did that kind of just jumps out as being really impactful or something that you're going to take with you for years to come?

Carlos: At this point, the return investment just keeps on coming. I've never thought about doing something like this. And now I'm thinking, well, there's this guy called CB that needs a, uh, portfolio that needs something and like he's such a hard ass. But uh, we gotta do it for this client. And I never thought about it putting it that way, but I see it so like the application of it, I, I, so practical. So I'm actually gonna keep it. And I haven't done that. Uh, to me kind of the, the strategy is the, the ugly first draft. And fortunately I'm not very, um, what do you call perfectionist? So I just like to, I just like to do, I don't like to stay on, um, on the steel or thinking about things too much. Like if I'm going to do something, I'm going to go do the first drive on, uh, the Ugly first draft and then send it out into the world and see what happens. And then just give me feedback. I need to rate on that feedback. And the MVP version. Right. We all were, uh, all designers, UX designers, or the majority of us. So. MVP version. What's my MVP version? Okay, can people read this? Is it readable? Okay, send it out. See what happens. All right. Change it. Maybe it's more work on the long term, but it's. It's. I mean, at least you're not staying still, trying to find that war perfect, which doesn't exist, by the way. So, um, just put in that first draft. Do it. And actually, that this whole conversation kind of ties back to what Shelley is asking in the question is that if you got crushing imposter syndrome, I think one of the things that work for you is start. Start that momentum, make that first step, make that first drop, get that momentum going. Because the only way to be imposter syndrome is to do something against it. And so start walking. Take that step.

Host: Yeah. I love that you said, you know, the only way to get past imposter syndrome is just take that step. And kind of reminds me of another question that comes up almost every time we do these. But it's like, how can I become more confident? Or people say, I think I'll wait to do career strategy lab until I feel more confident. And I always say to them, like, you're gonna be waiting a long time to feel confident, because confidence is the byproduct of, like, making progress on your portfolio, writing a resume, bullet point. Right. It's like, confidence needs action. My next question is thinking back to when you got hired. I'm curious, like, thinking about the first 30, 60 days of the role. Um, was there anything you did that you felt was really effective in helping set you up for success in that role?

Carlos: Yeah, I think that when I. When I joined, there wasn't clarity into, like, how my first 30, 60, and 90 days will look like. Um, it's just kind of all over the place. So I think what I. What I did was, okay, well, this is what my experience going in, kind of doing a couple of HR things. But there wasn't a clear plan. So what I did was. Well, I don't want that to be the experience for someone else coming in after me. So here's what I'm proposing as to what the first 30, 60 days should look like. And each of the checkpoints and I create a whole document around what the experience should be. And I think that position me to like this here's someone that is not just thinking about the work that they have to do that we hired them for, but actually thinking of the whole experience of bringing someone else new in. And I think that that actually helped me kind of not race through the ranks immediately, but it put a, it put a light on me that I was wanting. So um, that was, that was helpful but that, that comes to mind immediately

Host: I think, I think the through line is really like be intentional right, and have a plan. Um, I'm curious, how many hours a week approximately were you spending um, looking for jobs and how did that compare kind of before and after Career Strategy Lab?

Carlos: I think at the beginning when you just join csl, there's going to be a lot of time that you dedicate to it as you prepare your career materials and your portfolio and your resume. So I'd say man, I remember I put the kids to bed and then one go to, you know, wouldn't go to sleep until around 1pm Working on this. So it is, it can be a lot or it depends again you put in what you get out of it so you don't have to do the same way that I do it. But I think maybe it was around 16, 15 hours a week working on, on, on my career materials. Then after that, after I got somewhat at a good level, then that drop off to maybe just dedicating some, an hour, an hour and a half to um, form to make applications. But like I'll make maybe one or two applications in that one hour because again you are aiming directly at you know, a tailor resume, a tailor cover letter, a tailor portfolio and then maybe even messages here and there to people uh, of within your network. So that took a long time, but it was less, less and less each time. But that's around, you start really high on, on the, on the time but then it goes down a little bit and then eventually you don't do it that much.

Host: And I, I would jump in there and just so people aren't scared, scared of how many hours a week this might take. It's going to depend for each person, right? So someone that is not working right now might treat Career Strategy Lab like a full time job, you know, or someone might come in with a portfolio that you know is pretty darn good and a resume that's pretty darn good and they maybe are not spending as much time as someone who hasn't touched their portfolio or resume in 10 years or something like that. All right, another question. Um, when you were looking for jobs, um, what did you do to figure out what hiring managers are looking for? Um, and how did you get opportunities to ask them questions? Or maybe you never made contact with a hiring manager. But I think the gist of this is really like, how did you make sure you understood what those hiring managers were looking for?

Carlos: I think that came a little after, on the process when you, once you get your, your first screen, after your screen interview, then you reach a pair with the hiring manager. At that point then you know who this person is. I would go on LinkedIn and just talk them a little bit. Maybe not the right word, but I would just go and look and like where, you know, where do they go to school, what are, what is their career record and just try to get snippets on, of information, uh, m. Um, just so that it'll prompt questions and then if, if anything further tie back to what the actual product was or maybe there was um, something similar like maybe we both like a certain school. So maybe if the opportunity lends itself, bring that up in the conversation. So just to make things more casual and to, to also make things look that I'm like as, uh, make sure that people know that I'm prepared, that I didn't just come in fluffed, uh, to the interview, but I actually took my time to research and this actually happened, um, with the CEO of the company that I'm at. When I, when he interviewed me in the last round, I made sure I went back to his LinkedIn stocking and I realized that he was a UX designer for like, you know, 20 years, 20 years ago. So I asked him, you know, questions relating to that, like how did he think, um, you. The practice has changed over the years, but I wouldn't have known that if I didn't actually take time to go on LinkedIn and you know, see what this guy is all about and then bring that into the conversation. And I think that that show that, that I care about this role that I wanted, that I planned for the role. And I think that helped me put, put a little more points on my, on my scorecard that they had.

Host: Yeah, I think read the job description. It sounds so obvious but, but um, as you said, so many people don't and when you just take the time to read the job description, that alone could make you stand out. Like, this is why I often say the bar to stand out is so low because so many people are just putting like minimal effort in. Right. So I cannot emphasize that enough. I think we'll have time for two more Questions. But one of them is, um, when you were in your last job searches, were you using a portfolio presentation or website? The big debate of, you know, hiring these days. So what, what did each of you do? I may know the answer, but I'm curious. I want everyone to hear from you and not me.

Carlos: Your website is an invitation card, but really what needs to be ready and prepared for, to present is the case study, the PDF, where you go, where it's easier to navigate. There's pages, there's sections. But so I use my website as like the present card. Um, and then, um, if inquire upon, then I have the case study ready and I have the ability to modify it and um, make it. Oh my gosh, I'm blanking out the words. Um, and customize it for that specific case study for that specific company. Put a little, ah, name tag of the company and maybe even change some of the wording based on what the company is. So, uh, yeah, I do both. Um, and it's, to Jonathan's point, it's easier to make the big case study first and then grab that content and use some of that content, distill it down on the website, uh, to make it more readable, easy to scan.

Host: Yeah, yeah. I think if you choose to create a website, um, you can just use the content from that presentation. Right. And I think the presentation, as you said, um, Carlos, is, is the priority because that's also what you're going to use in job interviews. Right. And then I think if you have time to make a website or if you already have a website, that's great. But also at the same time, there's been so many people from Career Strategy Lab who only had a presentation and still got hired. So I know we could debate about the pros and cons and strategy of website versus presentation for hours on end. The last, the last guess, closing, uh, question here is, you know, if, if someone either was on the fence about joining Career Strategy Lab or they join, um, what, what advice would you give them? Feel free to take that whatever direction feels right to you.

Carlos: Yeah, you're not, you're not gonna, if you're on the fence, you are not gonna regret it. The value that you get out of it, uh, besides the, you know, the job and everything else, but the confidence. I tell you, there is a clear, distinct difference between my confidence when I interview versus before and after csl. And I think honestly, that's what got me the job. Because my portfolio was okay, my case studies were okay. But I think the way I came in into those meetings, into those interviews because I had practiced because I had gone through the steps of CSL just allowed me to sit down here and just be myself and like crack a joke here and there, there and uh, just be myself and be. And that's actually what I think really got me a job. Not the work that I did but just the fact that I was so comfortable with presenting my work and knowing that it was a really well made presentation. So but I, I didn't, I wouldn't have got in here if it wasn't for like the steps to SSL that giving the confidence. So if you're on the fence and you are feeling doubtful that you don't have the confidence I think that that's what is going to give you the confidence knowing full well that your work is great and that you are good at presenting and you have practice for this moment. So that's what I would say.