180: UX Hiring Insights: Eric Shumake on Healthcare UX, Specializing, & Thinking of Your Career as Gigs​​

Eric Shumake: All good things come from specializing. Uh, at least they have in my career. Uh, and so what I didn't like was weeping into a keyboard at three in the morning trying to fix code that was still just always a little bit over my head. But what I did like was solving these business problems. And so it was really scary at the time. It almost felt irresponsible. Uh, and I think that's another clue. It should feel a little, maybe dangerous when you make a career move.

Host: Hey, I'm Sarah Doody, uh, a user, researcher and product designer with 20 years of experience. In 2017, I noticed something a little ironic. UX and product people, despite being great at, uh, designing experiences for other people, often struggle to design their own careers. That's why I created Career Strategy Lab and this podcast to help you navigate your UX job search, grow in your current role and, and avoid skill and salary plateaus all in a chill and BS free way. So whether you're stuck in your job search or wondering what's next in your UX career, you're in the right place. Today I'm really excited to be chatting with Eric Shoemake, who is a principal user, researcher and founder of something called HXR Labs, um, which focuses on the UX of healthcare, UX consulting and a training company. Um, Eric's been working in UX for 20 years, especially in UX research. Um, he has a lot of experience with companies you've heard of and maybe haven't heard of like Pfizer Johnson, uh, and Johnson Novartis, Myriad Genetics Alive Core, um, and across different kind of sub industries of healthcare such as cardiology, oncology, neurology and genomics. Um, he also teaches about ux, so that's why I'm really interested in his perspective. I think teachers make great people to interview for this podcast. Um, he's taught at UX or he's taught at Rocky Mountain College of Art and Design and Naropa University and currently is teaching a very interesting course on maven.com all about transitioning into healthcare UX. I see raving reviews about it all the time. So we will make sure to link to that in the notes, Eric. And one of the thing Eric is really focusing on is how we are using and how he's using AI in research, um, to automate partsfoot. So I'm sure we'll get to that. Um, so to kick things off, Eric, I'm really curious just to hear a little bit from you in your own words, how you got into the world of UX and research and kind of niching down into this world of healthcare.

Eric Shumake: Thank you Sarah. And it's amazing to be on this. I've been following your work for years and then I was looking back and I was like maybe that's decades, uh, even before you were in hiring when you were in IC roles and ux. And so uh, it's great to finally uh, uh, have this kind of materialize. Right. Because I just feel like I've known you for so long. I appreciate your thought leadership and, and uh, even I think one time you uh, had meant like mentioned me or responded to something in a post and I had a colleague get be like oh look like Sarah mentioned like reached out and I was like that's awesome. And so in putting in the work, right. So we're out there, we're trying to give back. Um, and so yeah, I mean, I mean I've been uh, I don't want to date myself here but I've been doing UX since before it was kind of broadly adopted as a term. It existed. Um, but I started out, I mean nerd alert. I did like Pascal summer camp. Um, and then I was doing uh, then there is sort of like you know Flash was around and WordPress and it was that kind of era. Um, and so there's a lot of work in WordPress sites. And so I got a lot of experience building end to end sites for really small regional companies, real uh, estate firms, uh, um, acupuncture clinics, uh, quite a variety. I did a Philly cheesesteak shop. Uh, and I learned a lot. Um, and I had my own thing that wasn't ux. I called it results based design because I was like look, it's not a brochure, it's not a parking lot. You can get people to do stuff and you can measure that stuff and you can improve that stuff. And so I really got excited about the kind of that business engine part of it. Right. Um, but as I was doing it I learned uh, and this will be a story because this happens three times. And the theme is that when you specialize all good things come from specializing. Uh, at least they have in my career. Uh, and so what I didn't like was weeping into a keyboard at three in the morning trying to fix code that was still just always a little bit over my head. Right. I really respect people who can, developers and coders. That's a very specific, an ordered way of thinking. Uh, but what I did like was you know, solving these business problems. And so it was really scary at the time. It almost felt irresponsible. Uh, and I think that's another clue is, you know, if it should feel a little, maybe dangerous when you make a career move. Uh, but I want, I disavowed all development and WordPress work, right? So I just focused on the design and the strategy and the research I had been doing. And then UX is kind of, uh, on an upswing. They're hiring for UX roles. And so, um, having actually built things and done all the research and covered it end to end was a real good competitive advantage because I was up against people from like maybe the first cohort or two of general assembly was coming out then. Um, and so some people actually had more advanced, I would say looking back, UX deliverables. Um, but what got me the role was that I had built a dozen things that were out there actually working and so that I had tied my research to those results. So I got hired at the Integer Group. Uh, it's a shopper marketing agency. It's part of the Omnicom Global group. And so then I got like, you know, I mean I, you know, I was doing work for Clairol, I was doing work for Mars Wrigley, I was doing work for Michelin Tires. We did Jack Links, uh, you know, the beef drip. Like all this stuff was coming across my, uh, my desk. And part of it was that I was humble. I was actually doing some of what was considered more of the plumbing work at the agency, which is, which was the uh, Amazon and the conversion strategies. Right. Um, and everybody wanted to work on the innovation but me kind of working on that plumbing stuff, I got to work across. My portfolio was so m. Much more broad than other folks. Right. And it brought me into higher level work. Uh, and so there I learned some things. I learned that I didn't really like a super competitive agency. Uh, I'm on the autism spectrum. So honestly I mask pretty well, but I can't read a room to save my life. Uh, and agencies are hyper, you know, uh, uh, they're very socially oriented often. Um, and so there again I said, okay, you know, this is, this, I don't like this the agency environment. Right. I don't feel like UX was not getting, I mean this is a story we can all relate to. Uh, you know, UX wasn't getting any respect there. And you know, part of me at that time thought it was the agency. Um, and so I left. But before I left, I worked on two things that really then shaped my career. So I worked on capital, um, funds with American Group. Uh, no, American funds with Capital Group got that wrong. Um, it's the top 10, one of the top 10 funds in the U.S. um, and I worked with them on like a nine month project. And I really, I mentioned before I was on the spectrum. Um, the added layer of regulatory complexity for me was uh, really cool and I actually liked it because it's like solving a puzzle. Uh, and none of my colleagues liked it. Right. So again that work was available. Um, so like stay a little bit humble and don't be afraid to do, you know, some of that bread and butter work. Um, but then what really rang my bell was Johnson and Johnson and this is the first was with their ACCU View line. And so I did work with their ACCU V line in the U.S. uh, in the EU and in Asia. And like these cross channel comparisons, it was really exciting, super interesting work and it kind of just like, I like the added level of altruist, like it felt like it was more meaningful. Right. It's great to sell a lot of M&M's. M&M's are awesome, like they make people happy. Uh, but for me, you know, and people need money. That's great. I didn't like Fintech. There's a bit of a move fast break things, ethos. There's uh, not at the higher levels. Right. But, but there still is. Um, and, and there's something about just healthcare, the pacing of it, um, the even more regulatory layers. And so I planted my flag there. Uh, I left the um, the consultancy and again people were like, you're leaving that job. Right. And it seemed irresponsible, uh, but you know, they're like, you're crazy. And I was like, I'm gonna go crazy if I, if I, if I should stay here and try to keep up with the, the environment. That wasn't just a fit for me. Right. And I think nowadays you can, you know, structure thing. I'll get into this later. But you can structure things much more around who we are rather than trying to be the shape of every job opportunity. Right. Uh, but in leaving there and really this was then at the height of, you know, sort of the, I don't know, the UX renaissance. I mean hiring was, was very prevalent and so I was able to go independent and I worked with uh, the American Society of Nephrologists, um, you know, uh, Alive Corps with the Cardia Mobile, um, that then we were going into Covid, um, with that and so they actually got a Ton of money and investors because they needed remote practice of medicine for EKGs. Um, I spent two and a half years at Myriad Genetics getting them kind of up to speed. They're an older analog company. Um, so that was interesting and I had a lot of analog skills that came to bear there. Um then you know, high paced, uh, with the um. What are they? It's a clinical documentation integrity company which uh, is like clinical billing and coding. Uh, so I was working next to the money pipes on a consultancy uh, last year. Um, and then the teaching has been sort of fun. It's like it actually, um, I don't know, I just, I just personally like it. The interactions are good and like I feel like I can really help uh, you know, at that stage. Uh, sometimes it's just like. And it was for me when I was coming up a therapy session, right A little bit. Right. By somebody who understands the field. And so uh, yeah, that's the journey. Thanks everybody for listening. The idea of specializing is always a good thing to do. Um, and uh, I recommend it.

Host: I uh, took so many notes, Eric. I have so many branches that we could discuss here. But I think it was really interesting. You said all good things come with specializing, which I just want to underscore with people. And I think that one of the things that the people worry about with specializing is like deciding what to specialize in, um, prematurely. And it's kind of like you need to just get out there and get experience and expose yourself to different industries, um, whether it's finance, healthcare, et cetera. And like you said, expose yourself to different work environments too. Right? Because you said that agency experience, you know, gave you the opportunity to see how these kind of projects with puzzle like uh, traits to them interested you. But the environment of that agency, you know, maybe wasn't something you wanted long term.

Eric Shumake: No, absolutely. 100% agree. I feel, I feel understood and I

Host: think too, um, so many people that I speak to and maybe you speak to kind of um, get very, very worried about. I'm currently working in finance for example. I want to move into healthcare. I don't have healthcare experience so I think I'm gonna get rejected because I don't have healthcare experience. And I just want to kind of underscore what, what you talked about in your own journey in that I'm going to make an assumption. Because you worked on the financial stuff that had a lot of regulatory complexity. I think that helped develop that skill and muscle of dealing with complexity which is healthcare.

Eric Shumake: Right.

Host: And you could have gone to Other agency or other industries that are complicated also. But for people worried about that, I would just underscore it's less about having experience in the literal industry and more how can you transfer, um, the skills you already have in your case, Eric, regulatory complexity to the industry that you're actually excited to go work in.

Eric Shumake: Absolutely right. And then that, that, that halo kind of remains and so it's transferable. And so especially when hiring environments are good, like you know, six or seven years ago a common conversation would be, you know, um, hey, uh, you know, so and so is in healthcare, which means they're good in regulatory, you know, regulated environments. So they'd be good if somebody's looking in fintech, right?

Host: Yeah.

Eric Shumake: And the hiring market will return to that because the principle endures that cognitively I think we abstract back more easily than down meaning. So, you know, if you think of somebody and they're in healthcare, you're still going to think of them because of the regular regulatory context and recommend them for finance. Right. But if they're a generalist overall. Right. Then there's no way to kind of come up right with them. Um, you know, but the first depth uh, that we come up with is our expertise of course, in ux. Right. In the UX skill and craft, which can transfer anywhere. Right. You could take a really good UX person, they don't have to have domain expertise. This is kind of a nerd fight post thing I see. Uh, you know, come across every once in a while is do you need deep domain expertise or can you come in with just really, really good UX skills? And it's a little bit of both because fresh eyes can be good. Right. Um, but also in some places like healthcare, um, um, where the repercussions are so severe, where it's either morbidity, uh, or lawsuits or things like that, you'll find there's much more of a risk aversion strategy in hiring. Like they want to get that hiring right, but they sure don't want to get it wrong. Right. So they're looking for some of that basic stuff. Like, you know, in the US markets it's HIPAA compliance, uh, which is, which is patient privacy, you know, and so there's some easy things you can do. Like you can go out and get a hipaa, it's called a HIPAA Business Associate License, um, and it's like 30 bucks, it'll take you two hours or less and it will tell you everything you need to know about HIPAA to not violate that and to Impat safety. Right. Uh, and so that's something you can pick up. So you do need a little bit, uh, you know, in, in healthcare or in, in, you know, in some of these other areas that are, that are very, very regulated. Um, there is a, there is a threshold, uh, but once it's met, then the door, the door opens and then you're competitive with that specialization. Over a thousand other generalist, uh, um, you know, resumes. And that's on the clinical side because there's this whole other delta and kind of way to get into health tech that I recommend, which is through education or educational or like wellness apps. Right. And so they're subclinical, they're clinical adjacent. You're in there, you know what I mean? You've worked at one and then you can move to the other. So you can either do it by going credential first or expertise first. Right. Uh, or you can do it by kind of by, you know, uh, uh, coming in from the wellness angle.

Host: That's really interesting about, you know, the ability for people to go out and seek out fast and affordable, um, certifications like that HIPAA license. I'm sure there's similar things in, in other industries, but I had no idea. So I definitely learned something from that.

Eric Shumake: Cool.

Host: Um, let's see here. Um, okay, you are very experienced in getting into healthcare yourself, but also walking other people through how to do that. And I'm curious, what kind of surprises or gotchas or maybe blind spots do people have when they are looking to get into healthcare?

Eric Shumake: So one of the most common, uh, record scratch moments, because it's often, I think it would be more comical if it didn't rattle people so much, is that the way that clinicians and especially emergency department doctors are trained about empathy is not the way that we're trained about empathy. So we're using the same word for two very different things. And so people will come in and myself included. I've made this mistake with clinicians, or I was puzzled for a bit by it thinking that they would inherently understand, you know, just that, that, that you know, psychological, uh, uh, you know, um, you know, empathy of. For people who are already generally. Well. Right. Um, but when you mention empathy to them, they're actually trained out of that in their clinical decision. Right. So of course they want that. Like there's a quote by, uh, Dr. Uh, Robbie in the show the Pit, uh, about. About, um, what was it? It was about, um, satisfaction, uh, scores. And he said they should be satisfied that they're alive Right. Because he's. Those guys are dealing with under resourced situations, they're making like multiple life and death decisions hourly. Um, and, and so for them, that kind of empathy, you know, they even. There is even kind of a side plot where, where he wasn't being empathetic enough because he was driven so hard to run. Right. And so you have to watch that. But certainly, um, you know, coming in and just saying, hey, here's empathy and thinking that all of a sudden the doctors will be, you know, allied because, because of that, you know, because of the general bedside demeanor, um, that's something that they're putting on for the patients. But that is not, that's not where they're living day to day. Right. They're more in that, you know, more in the trenches. And so, um, tying things not, I think overall the thing, the takeaway from that is, um, don't really like use UX processes, but don't expect people to be, you know, like, you know, even if you try to educate the teams and bring them up to speed on UX processes, what we need to do is actually, um, it's not enough to offer the cup of tea. We have to turn the handle towards them. Right. Uh, so we're giving them this good research and this good design, uh, but we have to tie it to things that are in their world that matter, that they have to deliver on. Right. Um, and so, you know, the business folks, you got to give them numbers, you got to give them, you know, you got to give them savings, you got to give them increased revenue, uh, for the physicians, you know, you got to give them better outcomes, you got to give them more, uh, you know, actionability. They like to be able to see things and all in one place and take action. Um, and so I think it's, it's, you know, really going that extra mile to get into their shoes and not ask them to learn ux because, because frankly, over my career, most of them won't, um, you know, but they'll um, they all like a good workshop for some reason and everybody understands the flowchart. Um, but those don't really move the dial at the end of the day. Right. And even then, this is more broadly applicable to all ux, which is, you know, I feel at this stage that, you know, um, that recommendations are where insights go to die. Pardon the harsh metaphor, you know, but you really have to, we have to tie insights to decisions and then measure the impact of those decisions. Uh, and half of all stakeholders think in numbers. So we have to put numbers on. And we're an honest lot. Like, I'll talk to people all the time, like, well, why are you hesitant to put numbers? I don't know those numbers. We couldn't possibly get those exact numbers. Those are proprietary. Okay, cool, right? So all we're doing is like, you know, these are illustrative numbers, right? So we can say, hey, you know, from this type of form field change, overall, you can expect a 6 to 8%, you know, increase in accurate completions. And then you plug in numbers about how many customers we have, revenue stuff, and all of a sudden you've got number modeling because everybody else is, you know, nobody, uh, else worries about their numbers being slightly imaginary. Right? Marketing's numbers are imaginary. Right. You know, the C suites numbers are imaginary or aspirational. Uh, and even when it goes through accounting, those numbers are still like the frozen section of that story at that time. Right. So the number. So I recommend that we all. What was this sad chestnut? Don't, don't, um, show up to a numbers fight with just feelings. Right? And that was from me doing that too many times. Right? So, you know, we have the empathy, we have that. Right? Everybody else has the numbers. And so if we show up with the numbers and the feelings, that's how we win.

Host: Well, I, first of all, I love the pit reference. I am definitely a pit junkie. But I think, you know, the challenges that you brought up in doing UX within healthcare, um, I think really is just an important reminder that the challenges that come up in healthcare are not unique to healthcare. They come up in doing UX anywhere because you and I and everyone listening sees the narrative online where, you know, UX doesn't have a seat at the table and no one listens to us. And we just want to do right for the user type thing, which is true, but there's an and there. And that. And in the case of healthcare is the business of healthcare, right? And you could just apply that to the business of finance, the business of whatever industry you're in. And I think it's, it's such an important reminder for people, regardless of what industry maybe they're interested in, um, just continue using healthcare though, you know, you might be drawn to it with the idea of helping people and like ensuring that in extreme cases like ux, decisions don't cause death, literally. And at the same time that has to be balanced with the business, as you said. And I think it's a reality that sometimes gets ignored for some reason. And I think every industry is Going to have this problem.

Eric Shumake: Absolutely right. And so, you know, how do you solve the business problem? How do you solve the human problem? And I think that, that you know, internal loyalty to revenue is why you see startups, you know, calling it product design more than UX design, right? Because UX was pinned with this, you know, empathy hang up. Uh, but I think that they're wrong because you know, I think kind of, you know, um, uh, you know, you have to meet the, the user and the customer and the person where they're at for the business aspect. Right? Because if you don't listen to that, if you just drift off on the, on the, you know, on the revenue side, um, then, you know, because the, the number one thing, and I put it on a T shirt like this is my number one most repeated phrase is we have to, you know, broadly speaking in late capitalism, right. I'm all for trade based economies, minimum basic income, whatever's next. But in our current system we have to solve problems that are costing people money and those people have to have the money to pay to have those problems solved. And if we're not, you know, closing that square, uh, then it's not plugged in. And that happens to companies, that happens to people. Like if you're worried about getting laid off, you know, I've always kept uh, the sort of nervous napkin math at any place I've been where I'm earning them two to 10 times what they're paying me and that I, I, that I draw a pretty straight line through how I'm doing that. Right. Um, and so yeah, I think if, you know, and even sometimes in healthcare where people are saying, well, we don't want to take advantage, the populations are vulnerable, they're sick populations, you absolutely don't. But that doesn't mean that like you know, the organ, it's sort of like the, the, um, the analogy I'll use is like the, the like blood flow, right? So for physicians, for a doctor to help somebody, they have to have enough, right, kind of, you know, blood flow and that could be analogous to revenue. Right. Um, and so, you know, the, the business part has to be taken care of and if any, if there's any work that's actually being done and paid, that's what is happening. Right. And so, you know, it, it's um, yes, we can try to um, you know, always advocate for the user, but that's, you know, the, the bottom line is the bottom line. And so if we're not taking care of that, uh, then we wonder why there's no work or there's no right. And a job is just kind of a bundle of, you know, problems that are costing people money they pay to have solved. Right.

Host: Yeah.

Eric Shumake: And so, yeah, I don't know, a little, a little bit of a rambling answer there.

Host: But no, it's great. I think it's just, it's such an important reminder because I see the posts all the time on LinkedIn of kind of UX people wanting to just focus on the user and all this stuff and it's great and noble and there is no user if there is no business at the end of the day. Right. And it could sound harsh but I think this is a challenge that anyone is going to face uh, even outside of the world of user experience. Right. My sister is in um, was ICU, neuro, ICU nurse for sure, 15 years or something like that. And um, I'll, I'll make this story short but she and I think very similarly in terms of systems. Right. And she constantly saw all kinds of ideas have, how they could improve systems. But at the end of the day you need the buy in of the doctors or of the management and how that is going to impact, you know, dollars, time, outcomes, whatever it is. So even though she has ideas that could be amazing for the patient, um, it needs to filter through all those other people. So yeah, this, this problem is not unique just to UX and us having stakeholders, you know, push back. It happens everywhere.

Eric Shumake: Absolutely.

Host: Um, all right, so I'm curious to focus a little bit more on your work through HXR Labs. I got that right, yes. HXRLabs.com research yes. And tell us a little bit more about the work that you do. Um, there. Sure.

Eric Shumake: I mean so that's the consulting, that's the training. Um, and I think a little over, I'm thinking back probably about uh, over half of my career has been consulting. Uh, and then there's been the you know, interesting ah, full time roles, you know, as they've come up. Um, but I've always had the consultancy so even from when I was back doing those WordPress sites. Um, and actually the names I cracked up because the names are very dated from era to era. So uh, the first was ERC Shoe Designs, Eric Schumacher Shoe. And it was back when those giant fonts were, you know. I mean, yeah, I uh, mean we're thinking around, you know, I don't know, 2000. Um, and then uh, from that it went to workable web Design. How Web 2.0 does that sound Right. Uh, and then it was preactive digital back when people were still putting digital on the end of things. Uh, um, and then, uh, it actually was preactive digital for quite a while. Um, and then has now updated to HXR labs or the Healthcare Experience Research labs. And so it's always evolved. And I, you know, the, one of the cool things that consulting taught me is that uh, in consulting you're paid for results, not activity like you are paid for results. And if you don't get results, the contracts don't renew. And it's a little bit like a hit movie. Like if you, if you keep the hits coming, if you come across, you know, off of a really strong one, you got stuff to write about, you know, people are kind of, you know, passing your name around and recommending you. Cool. If it goes cold, you gotta hustle a little bit more. Right? Um, so I've always, I've always, you know, focused on like my job is not activity. Like, oh, I did this and we tried and it didn't work. Like my job is, you know, uh, yeah, we did this, it didn't work and I did all this other stuff and now it works and here you go. Um, and that's true. But sometimes, you know, sometimes with full time roles, especially in larger bureaucracies, oddly enough, the point is, you know, uh, is activity without results. Right. Uh, and I've always wondered about that, like why are bureaucracies waste all these good ideas and the trade off is vast organizational stability. Right. Uh, and so that's, you know, that's why you'll, you'll see that. And so sometimes I've, I've been surprised, but I've been in full time roles where I've been paid for activity that produced no results and that seemed, you know, anyway. So, you know, I think that, that that's just another uh, kind of aspect, uh, to it. Um, so another thing that's interesting is I don't really differentiate too much and I realize most people don't think this way, but now I don't differentiate too much between a conversation with somebody that might be, you know, contract work, uh, you know, might be a full time role. To me those are really just different ways things are structured. And, and even now, like with the, with the, you know, the economy and after the great resignation. Right. I think that these layoffs are, they're kind of a new feature. Uh, right. So these rolling layoffs are going to keep on going to keep people a bit scared, keep people doing a bit of a job and A half, right? And so the tenure of most of these jobs is going to be like three to five years. So even full time roles to me, you know, are uh, just maybe longer term gigs. Right? And that's not to say that I just find a real utility in saying, okay, I'm talking to these people about the work and solving the problem and we may structure it this way and we may structure it that way. Uh, you know, or they're offering it to be structured this way. Uh, but I look at them all as gigs, you know what I mean? Um, because you can't just uh, um, you just don't know anymore, right? And there's just not even that much stability. You uh, know, there used to be stability of places where big. But now one of their big investor tricks is to kind of um, rev the numbers by doing a layoff. Because revenue, if you cut payroll, you get a huge quick boost, people invest and bonus you can punch down on labor and people stay kind of compliant. Uh, but there's now more time for people to do. I recommend an all of the above approach, right. So I recommend all, everybody have a consultancy facing presence, right? So you'll have like an individual portfolio, say and then something that's, that's you know, not named self referential like I did with Irkshu. Right. Cringe. Uh, but something that's more descriptive, right. And institutional or objective. Uh because that just gives that broader professional face. Right. And then you can do things like you can do, you know, like I recommend vibe coding and building things because I've always talked about building is, you know what people I think really helps in hiring decisions if you actually built the things because it shows the applied knowledge and you can put those little projects under your uh, consultancy. Right. Uh, and then what's going to happen is that actually having that consultancy there is going to increase your chance of getting hired for the full time role. Right? Because you're going to be out there doing more things. You're going to show that initiative, that leadership, right. Um, it will help also if you want to get a contract gig because those can help stair step up into. I've had a number of contract gigs turn into full time roles. Especially if you deliver. Right? Hey, we love this. We need this. We're going to put a role together. We're not half of all jobs are not advertised, right? It has to be more. Now what is it? 3,000 resumes an hour, Sarah, is it like coming in this AI on the hiring side? What does anybody do with 3,000 resumes an hour. Right. So all hiring is relational. You have to show social proof and relational value, um, and have sympathy for the people on the other side of those hiring portals. Because it's like Windows 2000 and those things, half of them. Uh, and how do you look through that many resumes? You can't possibly. You've got an extra hour a week to go through this at best. Um, and so it's people whose names, right. And even if it's somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody, activate those weaker connections. Because what we have to do is prove that we're human, uh, and then also that we have that value. Right. Um, because you can't tell by the resumes anymore or anything. Right. And on the hiring side now I'm hearing in this debate, it has to be. Right. So students are saying things like, uh, they'll have, uh, you know, it'll be an AI thing and it'll ask them a question and then it'll give them like 30 seconds and record a video. Uh, and they're. And the report back is it's not really great user experience on the applicant side, as I would imagine. Right. You don't have time m. To prepare. It's moving through. Um, and so, you know, I even recommend, uh, becoming a thought leader. Right. So getting out on social media and even publishing video because the reason they're using video to capture is because it's so it's such rich media content they can capture, you know, how well you can communicate your ideas and your thinking. Right. And they're trying to find a way where they get something that proves that, that people are human outside of that blizzard of A.I. resumes. Um, so it, while it's not, um, it's not a fun process, you know, one, prepare for it, uh, and two, get ahead of it by putting out video content if you can.

Host: Those are such great tips. I want to come back to a few of them. But the through line for me was how you said you have to think of your career as a series of gigs. And I love that framing. And I think the definition of gig, like you said, it could be a full time role, it could be a contract role, it could be a contract that's 12 months or turns into 24 months or something that's, that's three months. And one of the things that I tell people in my career strategy lab program is I try and think of myself and the coaches who work alongside me as uh, the product manager of everyone's job search because they're too close to their job search to product manage it. And that's why people get on the hamster wheel of portfolio redesigns or apply to 300 jobs and just keep hoping for the best type thing. So I'm curious if maybe you, you and I can play out being the product manager of someone's job search who is in the scenario of they, um, have been laid off for, I don't know, 6 months, 12 months, something like that, they're still not getting interviews. Um, how could we prioritize some of the things that they could do right now? Um, because I could imagine someone listening to this is thinking, okay, I gotta focus on getting a full time gig, but now I have to make a consultancy and then I gotta get consulting clients to really have a consultancy. And now I'm going to start a YouTube video or YouTube channel and start teaching on maven.com or something. Right? So to help, um, people from falling into that quite literal spiral, um, what are a couple of things that you might prioritize as someone's product manager or maybe questions you would ask them before you would even want to prioritize it.

Eric Shumake: Nice. No, good. Uh, you know, I think because I get this a lot, people are like, look, I don't have this much. You know, I don't have a lot of Runway. I've got a visa that's renewing, I've got, uh, you know, a mortgage payment I have to make. And so I, you know, I get, I get a range of, you know, uh, um, how do we say? Urgency, right? And so to the most urgent folks, the simplest plan I have is this, which is you want to talk to folks, right? And so the, um, the out of all the questions, when you reach out to people, hey, can you take a look at this and give me feedback on my portfolio? Can you pass this to the, um, hiring manager? Right? All of those are tough questions and they get a low response rate, right? Because the thing I would do is start reaching out to people directly and trying to have conversations. Uh, and what I've, what I've stumbled into, uh, and works like a charm, is the very, very simple question of, hey, how do you like working there? Right? It's like what you'd ask somebody next to them at the water cooler. And so you're not asking, you're not extracting any value. You're not asking for them to do anything. Provide value first. You're subtly providing value because they're going to respond one of two ways. Uh, quite often it's amazing, we're doing really great things. Or, uh, hey, you know what? Uh, it's usually pretty good. But let me tell you about this Tuesday, right? They'll either, they'll, they'll either, uh, you know, kind of, uh, you know, humble brag or vent about it, but either way you have the conversation because we can control activity, we can't control outcomes, right? And there's an interesting thing about nature, about the power of tens, right? Uh, and this shows up in biological systems. It shows up in, like, bulk mailing. Like this, this idea is basically this. If you, if you make a hundred contacts, right? So if you make, uh, if you go out and ask a hundred people on LinkedIn, hey, how do you like working there, right? Like, let's say you make, you pick your top 20, uh, five companies and ask four people at each of those companies how they like working there over a period of a week or two, whatever, you know, however much you have, um, the, that's gonna get you so much traction as far as people saying, hey, I like it, boom, boom, boom. You get in those conversations, um, you always keep an eye out for providing value, right? So if they're working on things or you can look at their social media content again, uh, but, you know, um, because you really do. I think the, the one thing you have to do if you had to focus is, you know, okay, you're contacting people. Um, that's part of it. But then you also have to have your profile, you have to have your social kind of media. And I recommend going all in on LinkedIn and LinkedIn only. Um, you know, you, you have to have that tailored in and focused, right? And it has to show that you've been focusing on this and solving these problems a bit over time. Uh, if you're shifting into a new vertical, you could do it easily. Like I, you know, when, if you get that, uh, if you wanted to move into healthcare, um, you could do, take that, uh, that HIPAA course, right? And just post off that $1 30 course, you could post a month's worth of really amazing stuff just about HIPAA compliance, right? So you have to do two things. You have to, you have to show that social proof, that relational proof, right, of what you do, but then that has to meet with the right ecosystem, right? Or the right curated environment. And so, yeah, if I had to make something happen, I would get focused about the kind of role that I wanted. I'd target 25 companies around that role. Uh, I'd hit them up with four contacts within a week or so, uh, and then I'd, you know, and then I would just kind of turn that activity over.

Host: I, I completely agree on what you said around, like you would go all in on LinkedIn and LinkedIn only. Um, I think LinkedIn, you know, people love it, people hate it. At the end of the day, that is where recruiters and hiring managers hang out. And what, you know, sales and Marketing 101 says, like, you have to hit the right people with the right time with the right message. And the right people, if you're seeking a job, are on LinkedIn and they have LinkedIn Open in their browser tab all day long. Right. And one of the questions I'm asked, and I'm sure you are too, is around, well, what should I post on LinkedIn? I don't have time for LinkedIn. And it just comes down to visibility. It's not about becoming an influencer necessarily, whatever that really means. Um, and it could be as simple as, like you said, take this HIPAA course and twice, three times a week post a takeaway post one thing. It doesn't have to be like a, a masterfully written essay that's like on medium and goes viral. You know what I mean? Visibility.

Eric Shumake: I couldn't agree more. I think, you know, it's, it's, it's like, um, Sarah, it's like uh, it's like meditation, right? If the only wrong meditation is the one we don't do. I have this story that was hilarious that um, you know, I, I posted, I posted something about Cap Capital punching down on labor, which was not really, you know, directly in my wheelhouse. Right. And it was, I think it was on an Erica hall post. Um, and, and uh, and I, you know, I remember posting and being like, come on Eric, reel it in. Stay focused on the health care. Right. Um, ah, but then that got me a contact from ah, from an agency and that got me into a conversation and work with Cigna of all places.

Host: Wow.

Eric Shumake: And so, so truly there are no bad posts. Right. Um, and so, uh, you know, that being said, um, keep it easy, right? So start one day a week, just do Wednesdays. Uh, something that helps me is I can batch write them. Uh, another thing that helps is that I can schedule it for uh, Monday, Wednesday, Friday. Right? So you can do that when you're feeling inspired. Because some days, you know, I'm not feeling up to it. Um, but the alternative is this is, you know, because everybody's like, well, I don't have time to then work on the social media. Um, but I would do that more than like, um, having talked to so many people about hiring as it is now. It's called, I call it smiling into the void. Um, where people are just like, you're putting all this good energy out and you're, you know, uh, uh, uh, you know, um, you know, doing the COVID letters and all into a system that's designed not at all to respond to you. Uh, and so if you're doing the thought leadership, if you're, you know, out there being a lighthouse, it's totally different. You get to decide what you're focused on. You get to decide, you know, it's not somebody saying we can't do this with this or we can't do that with, you know, right. You're, you're in a way immediately employing yourself. Um, and so, you know, I wouldn't send out application these days without at least three relational elements. Right? I mean like in three, you know, three things, three people on the hiring team. Um, ah, you know, so yeah, I think, you know, one, there's no wrong post. Get out there and do them. Um, and two, yeah, don't worry so much what people are thinking about you. Um, really focus on the value and how much you like them and want to help them, uh, and the value of what you're providing. And then that gets, it gets much easier.

Host: It's like a muscle, right? Like when you first start working out, it's tough and then it gets easier. I am just getting back into working out after surgery seven weeks ago and last night I could barely sleep because my arms were like aching so much. But it's going to get easier. And I think one, to use a health care now or health analogy, but I think you said there are no wrong posts. And I look at showing up on LinkedIn and um, as compound interest in my own career. And this is not just specific to me posting about career Strategy Lab, but when I think back to moments in my career, even in 2011, I just remembered a post from 2011. Um, it went pretty viral on Twitter. That was big at the time. And that single post I can attribute to like amazing kind of milestones in my career. One of them was people from General Assembly. We reached out to me, asked me to um, speak at an event and then that led to them reaching out to see if I wanted to create the curriculum for and teach their very first iteration of their 12 week program in New York City. Um, I also did that in collaboration with one other person. Um, but if I had not written that article and Put those thoughts out there. We literally might not be having this conversation today. And I will say back to compound interest, for years, even until, you know, last year, people contact me about that article and that's not the only piece of content that's happened with. But, um, it can bring value years later.

Eric Shumake: Absolutely. Yeah. I think the first time I got in a role where they actually wanted me to publish thought leadership, I was like, huh? And I was like, this is fantastic. I'm never going to stop doing this.

Host: Well, and some companies, um, I believe United Airlines is one of them, they are encouraging, and don't quote me, but I think helping educate employees as to why they should be posting thought leadership in public. One of the reasons is obviously it helps attract talent to the company, which reduces time to hire, reduces costs to hire, et cetera. So full circle back to results. Right. I want to touch on AI in user research because I know you are exploring and implementing a lot in that space. So one of the questions, uh, that comes up all the time is if I'm in a job search or if I'm happily employed right now, what AI skills experience should I be learning right now? Because I'm even told by some people I don't want to apply yet. I want to go get XYZ AI certificates or something. And I'm not sure that you should hold on applying until you have that experience. But what's your take on what skills UX people should be, um, learning regarding AI and even specific to user research if you want to get that deep.

Eric Shumake: Yeah, for sure. Um, you know, I don't see any percentage in, you know, in being anti AI. Right. I just don't see any business, you know, I don't recommend that. Um, the next thing out of my mouth though is where not to use AI. Right. So anywhere I'm at, I've got like three or four cautionary tales of types of AI in healthcare. Like they're rolling out things and there's like alert fatigue because you get these blizzards and false alerts is a super common thing when they try to insert AI. Uh, and so it's both. Right. It's a matter of. Yes, right. It's great. It can help democratize things, it can help, you know, accelerate things. Um, but it's not good here and it's definitely not good here. Right. And I think that's a good position overall because then you get, you know, everybody kind of takes you seriously. Um, and then, you know, in, in ux, I think, you know, everybody should be learning probably vibe coding. Right. I think vibe coding is a bit of the new wireframing, or it's a bit of a corollary to wireframing. Um, the students, I train a lot of students who are going from Figma into some of these builders like V0 and Vercel and Lovable, uh, some of them, um, and there's this kind of floaty feeling of collaboration as opposed to waterfall kind of each pixel control and so learning how to do that. Because what stakeholders are wanting now is they're wanting people to spin up these kind of 3D models that aren't just like a clickable prototype, but actually has the database functionality and all of that. So I recommend that everybody start goofing around with those. Build one or two interesting things, uh, and that might get you more, ah, that might get you actually more credibility, uh, than a certificate. Right? So you can. Like the first one I did, I spun it up in like two hours and that became actually, that combined with the how do you break into UX question to become the most popular class, over 500 alumni. Uh, I mean, I can't even believe it. It sort of actually, it, it pulled me along. Right. I mean, you know, you ran into some cool. If it's like, I was like, okay, I guess I'm doing this. Like, um. And so, you know, and, and so they, I have the students use AI to build apps that use AI, right. But there's areas to use it and areas to not use it. So I recommend using it and building with it. And then in research, it's a similar thing. Like, I, I've been approached by a number of companies that are doing these, um, what are they? Artificial users. Uh, and they're wanting students and all that. Right. And I don't, I don't know if you've seen like, Erica hall and some of the old schoolers, like, blow those things up. And I mean, I have too. But you know, there's. Who is it? I think it's Paul. Paul Whelan's out. You know, there's. There's some people who are also making a credible case for it. Right. And again, I'm like, yes, you just have to use it. Right. So the way I teach it is in automating things like, um, things that you would have to spend time doing secondary desk research at. So, you know, I taught a little workshop and help people set up agentic AI. And what it does is it scans all the media sources, it scans all the competitors. It runs at five in the morning when the credits are cheap. And then it writes a report to their um, desktop and then it will write a draft email. And so then so many of the PM, this was more focused to PMs because you know, those PMs are out there giving that weekly, you know, market summary or the weekly weather report. It's good for that, but in no way like AI needs to. What I want is AI that enables more human to human conversations, that handles the booking, that handles the rescheduling. Right. That handles all the, all the noise, um, and lets more people talk to more people. Because you know, uh, um, that's I think still the gold standard and I don't think that that's going to change. So I'm wary of anything that emulate, you know, that would um, generate uh, generate its own uh, um, you know, speculative data. But you could do something that's more interesting of let's say you do proper research and then we've got some, you know, Personas and those Personas have a lot more data that is in just that one summary page, somebody bringing that to life so that like you know, stakeholders could ask questions of that Persona based on real, not fabricated data. That's interesting to me. Right. It could still hallucinate, but that's at least like to me I'm like that's, I'd spend some time looking at that. Right. Uh, but I think the thing that wins with uh, stakeholders these days is yes AI. But it's yes AI and me, right? So it's me, my uh, uh, discernment, right. My judgment and expertise and oversight. Uh, and then the AI for productivity, for volume, for the fact that we are all being asked to do a job and a half in these full time roles now and not being resourced more time. Like all the researchers went away and everybody's a researcher now. But you know, other beyond the, beyond the confirmation, uh, you know, bias, risk. Right. Um, you know, was that even added to people's job descriptions and resource generally? No. Right. So everybody's just kind of, kind of doing that. Um, and so it's an idea of saying like it's me and my robot buddy did this. Right. So yeah, I think that's the best. Yeah.

Host: I think like you said, using AI, um, creating this agent to be doing desk research and bringing you a competitor report maybe, uh, it's pulling press releases or who knows what every morning. I think that is a great example of how you can use AI to help offload some of the stuff that would just be very time consuming. For you. So you're freeing up time to do other things. And I think in a job search that would be a great example of what a recruiter hiring manager would want to hear. Like how you are using AI to save time and money so you can use your time and the company's money to do other things that AI maybe can't do well to begin with. Right.

Eric Shumake: Perfect.

Host: Um, okay, we have time for one question. Everyone was a little slow to get questions in, so I'm going to go in the order that we received them. But Williams is really interesting and not one that we've had before that I can recall. But he wants to know, can we talk more a little bit about neurodivergence in the workplace? Can it hurt or help if one chooses to disclose their neurodivergence in the job application?

Eric Shumake: So I, I'm not hesitant on the federal reporting, right. So when it asks if there's a disability. So, uh, I'm on the autism spectrum and I've also over my lifespan just to normalize it. I've struggled with depression and so technically, uh, you know, handicap. Uh, and um, certainly early on, no, I mean, like, you know, 10 or more years ago, uh, we weren't even allowed to have feelings. Right. Uh, and so, um, I would keep all of that to myself. Um, and then more so I will report it on the federal reporting, on the job application, uh, just to have that record there. Uh, and because I feel like it would be dishonest to not report that way. Um, but then, boy, it really, it really, like I didn't mention it the last gig, um, because that place was wound pretty tight. Um, I've mentioned it at places and it's been sort of performatively embraced. But then, uh, then I'm still filling in the blanks about things, you know, Uh, I mean it's, it's nothing too overt. Um, but uh, I mean I, I, I wish that I had a, you know, a, ah, more positive answer. I think that I, you know, I work a lot with, with masking it. I have ever since growing up. I mean, um, and the right answer is that one should be able to do that anywhere. And um, I wonder if like the places I disclose, then people understand me better. Um, and so, you know, maybe that's better overall. Like, you know, the trade off is they think that there's something going to be different about me, but then they also, they understand, you know, that it is a superpower. Like for me, you know, that's the reason I have this sort of always have this objective, like kind of third party perspective on, you know, like, it makes me a much better researcher and much more sensitive and much more aware of bias. Um, but I think, yeah, the answer is I'm still, obviously I'm still afraid at some places to bring it up.

Host: Um, well, I think too it's a really, um, the way that companies and people respond to if you disclose that is a great foreshadowing of what it would be like if you got hired there. Right. So I think it's kind of on a case by case basis if you disclose that or not. But I think every touch point in the job search is an opportunity to be gathering information. It's like a research project on what those people are like at those companies and how they might be, you know, on a day to day basis. So I would, I would just encourage people to pay attention to how, how recruiters, hiring managers, whomever, you know, react to that. And that's probably a clue to not ignore, you know. No.

Eric Shumake: Right. It could be a red flag and you can definitely dodge a bullet with that, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Host: Eric, this was super helpful. Um, I love that we address kind of specializing versus generalizing, um, how specialists can transfer their knowledge from one industry to another, etc. Um, and I really loved the part about um, thinking is yous career is a series of gigs. Um, I think it's kind of an insurance policy for your, for your career too. So for everyone listening, we will drop links in the show notes, um, to Eric's maven course, to Eric's website, to Eric's LinkedIn and that is all everyone. Hey there. I just wanted to say thanks for listening to this episode all the way to the end. If you're looking for links or resources mentioned, visit careerstrategylab.com podcast to find this episode details and the details of the hundreds of other episodes. If you're looking for help with your UX or product job search, you may want to consider checking out my Program Career Strategy Lab where I help UX and product people just like you navigate unexpected challenges, changes in their careers. Whether that's a layoff, trying to get promoted or getting hired without applying to hundreds of jobs. To learn more about that, just go to careerstrategylab.com and click UX Career Coaching at the very top. That's all for today and I will see you next time in another episode of the Career Strategy Podcast.