E42 How Consistency, Not Luck, Keeps Companies Alive

1 - > SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to Bust and Beyond with your host 2 - > Robin Hayhurst. 3 - > In this podcast, Robin will introduce guests that have known 4 - > failure and want to share their story about how they got through 5 - > it and what happened next. 6 - > This will make you learn how to see things from a new 7 - > perspective and avoid making the same mistakes. 8 - > Please welcome Robin Hayhurst.

9 - > SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to Bust and Beyond Podcast. 10 - > We're joined by Logan today. 11 - > So hello Logan. 12 - > SPEAKER_02: Hello, it's so great to be here this morning.

13 - > Thank you, Robin. 14 - > SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you for uh taking the time. 15 - > I know it's quite early there. 16 - > It's about seven o'clock and it's just after midday here.

17 - > So, you know, big difference. 18 - > SPEAKER_02: I'm an early morning person, so me too, sometimes. 19 - > So uh not always good uh disclaimer sometimes. 20 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sometimes I jump out of bed and go, yeah, 21 - > life is for living.

22 - > And sometimes I don't. 23 - > So um so Logan, tell us a little bit about you and what you do. 24 - > SPEAKER_02: Absolutely. 25 - > So I like to say I solve people problems, and what I mean by 26 - > that is that I've spent a lot of time in my career in early stage 27 - > investing in the investing world, private equity and uh 28 - > venture capital, and starting companies as well.

29 - > And so I've been in and around that space for a long time and 30 - > made a lot of observations that, and this is backed up by a 31 - > statistic I'll share, but that a lot of the reasons that 32 - > companies are failing or that um financial products aren't 33 - > performing as they might be able to otherwise is because of 34 - > people problems. 35 - > And I mean leadership capacity risk, team dynamics issues, 36 - > people getting frustrated at their manager and leaving.

37 - > I mean, this just happens all the time. 38 - > And according to Harvard Business Review, 65% of 39 - > companies fail because of people problems, because of internal 40 - > dynamics. 41 - > And so I set out recently to help solve that problem through 42 - > my company, the Founder Readiness Institute. 43 - > And what we do is essentially evaluate hiring and execution 44 - > risk for leaders.

45 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 46 - > I obviously work in an industry that has a huge failure rate. 47 - > I think 18% of all companies that fail are for my industry, 48 - > but the gross domestic product or the turnover of the industry 49 - > is only six or seven percent. 50 - > So it's a huge failure rate.

51 - > And I put that down to to people, absolutely. 52 - > Actually, a lot of it's consistency, I think, strangely 53 - > enough. 54 - > If I sum it up in one word, it'd be consistency. 55 - > SPEAKER_02: Consistency, okay.

56 - > SPEAKER_01: I just think people don't do things they should be 57 - > doing. 58 - > And they might start off with kind of the right mindset and 59 - > the right approach, but then it falls by the wayside as you know 60 - > things become stressful and far fighting and you know, fear 61 - > takes over. 62 - > SPEAKER_02: One, we would use the language of complexity 63 - > coming in or pressure entering the system. 64 - > And so essentially, you might have a person or an individual 65 - > who's set out, you know, in their best, we call it their 66 - > best day.

67 - > You know, you're um you when you interview for a job, it's your 68 - > best self that you're presenting, most likely. 69 - > And that individual, that version of yourself, can perform 70 - > maybe at a certain capacity. 71 - > But when things start to get stressful, and when you have all 72 - > these demands on your time, and when you are dealing with a lot 73 - > of complexity, like we have all this AI tooling coming in, you 74 - > know, people start to kind of crumble in that.

75 - > And there's kind of um predictable patterns where 76 - > people tend to break down under pressure that we can actually 77 - > measure with our tools. 78 - > SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, that's that's very useful. 79 - > What I see is is fear. 80 - > So I see people start a business.

81 - > Normally in my industry, they might have a professional or a 82 - > trade background. 83 - > So they might be a site manager, they might be a carpenter, and 84 - > then they have the bright idea of starting a business, 85 - > completely different skill set to run a business, to actually 86 - > do the trade. 87 - > And the first thing that hits them is the complexity really of 88 - > the tax system. 89 - > So we've got VAT, we've got a thing called CIS, all these 90 - > things have to be, you know, you you can look at it, look in your 91 - > accounts and go, yeah, I've got loads of money, but none of it's 92 - > yours.

93 - > So they will hit a point somewhere where the fear creeps 94 - > in, and because of cash flow issues, and let's face it, 90% 95 - > of the companies in my industry don't actually have a cash flow 96 - > forecast. 97 - > So they don't predict these things, they just look at what's 98 - > going to happen at the end of the month. 99 - > Yeah, it's so common. 100 - > One of the things I teach is cash flow because people don't 101 - > do it.

102 - > Their cash flow will be haven't got enough money until the end 103 - > of the month. 104 - > That's that's as far as it goes. 105 - > The fear creeps in. 106 - > And the trouble with fear is where focus goes, energy flows.

107 - > SPEAKER_02: Yes. 108 - > Oh, I definitely agree with you. 109 - > Yeah. 110 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so so the focus goes on the fear and not 111 - > on running the business.

112 - > And then kind of the fear comes to realisation, really, it it 113 - > happens. 114 - > And I think that's that's a big problem. 115 - > And trying to get people to say, well, hold on, you know, let's 116 - > firstly predict these problems so you can work in them, you 117 - > know, you've got more time to react and sort it out, but also 118 - > to see where you're leaking money and you know, whether you 119 - > actually need to do more or do less or whatever. 120 - > So that's kind of the first thing they need to do.

121 - > But any way of measuring employees and measuring 122 - > founders, I think is really important. 123 - > SPEAKER_02: Well, and I can I can share a little bit more 124 - > because I actually was speaking to a coach the other day and she 125 - > shared something, a really interesting analogy or a way of 126 - > thinking about leadership capacity. 127 - > And I thought it was really beneficial. 128 - > So she talked about the nervous system and you you mentioned 129 - > fear.

130 - > And so we're in when we're in a fear, fight, or flight state, 131 - > we're in the sympathetic nervous system. 132 - > And it's really difficult to make good decisions or long-term 133 - > decisions when you're sitting in that nervous system state all 134 - > the time. 135 - > And so there are practices that she employs to help people move 136 - > into the parasympathetic nervous system, things like just an easy 137 - > breathing technique. 138 - > So to transfer your nervous system over to a different state 139 - > so that it can then grow and learn new things.

140 - > And so I think that's a really important part of this dialogue. 141 - > It's like, how do we get people out of that fear state and 142 - > thinking longer term and thinking more about how they can 143 - > incorporate this complexity and pressure instead of seeing it as 144 - > an adversary? 145 - > SPEAKER_01: The way I do it is I understand the problem. 146 - > So I, you know, I attack the problem with, you know, all the 147 - > information I can find.

148 - > So I understand it. 149 - > And understanding takes away the fear. 150 - > And with many, many years in business, you understand that 151 - > nothing terrible happens quickly. 152 - > SPEAKER_02: I love that.

153 - > Nothing terrible happens. 154 - > I guess unless you're day trading or something. 155 - > SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, yeah, but we yeah, we won't go into that. 156 - > But yeah, so not you know, it tends to take a long time.

157 - > And and if you've got any creditors and stuff like that, 158 - > they're not gonna kind of, it's not days, it's months. 159 - > So generally, you know, you've got a chance to to rekindle and 160 - > and rethink and and and sort it out. 161 - > So it's quite it's quite an important um uh tool that I use, 162 - > but I see so many people go into fear and I see so many people 163 - > fail because they have the head in the sand approach. 164 - > SPEAKER_02: Yes, and I think um, you know, obviously that is um 165 - > we would probably attribute that to our coachability construct.

166 - > So we measure, we can measure many things, but we uh for 167 - > founders and for business owners and leaders, we we tend to 168 - > measure six kind of core contracts. 169 - > I'd love to get into that if if that's if that works. 170 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. 171 - > Uh that that sounds brilliant.

172 - > I mean, I you know, I think it's important. 173 - > I speak to so many business owners on the phone. 174 - > So our process is, you know, we advertise what we do, people 175 - > sign up for more information, and it leads up to a discovery 176 - > call with me. 177 - > And so many people are in distress.

178 - > Their companies are in distress, but they still have barriers in 179 - > their head to getting help. 180 - > And it's quite frustrating the amount of companies I've spoken 181 - > to, and then I've kept in contact with them, I've I've 182 - > given them a quarterly call, and you know, at some point they 183 - > failed. 184 - > Yeah. 185 - > So they could have saved themselves, but they failed.

186 - > And, you know, that is that is concerning. 187 - > I think it's it is a mindset problem. 188 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think and that's this coachability 189 - > construct that I uh that I started to talk about is really 190 - > fascinating to me because what I've heard over and over is, you 191 - > know, when people do think about how they assess other people for 192 - > for hiring and things like that, or what they think are important 193 - > attributes of a good leader, coachability comes up all the 194 - > time.

195 - > And so what is coachability? 196 - > It's it is a mindset in many ways of strategically taking in 197 - > outside information and doing something, you know, valuable to 198 - > your current situation with it. 199 - > But in order to do that, you have to have a more objective 200 - > perspective on yourself and the system you're working with. 201 - > And that's where complexity comes in and compla the 202 - > perspective of complexity.

203 - > So when someone's a little bit lower on their coachability 204 - > development, they tend to be more eye-focused. 205 - > And so they'll be like, well, when criticism or outside 206 - > constructive criticism might come in, they might attribute it 207 - > just to getting offended about themselves. 208 - > And so that's a really challenging place to be because 209 - > you're kind of blocking information from coming in. 210 - > And that might be important for your business.

211 - > You might be listening to customers and you're just not 212 - > taking in that feedback. 213 - > Or, you know, they contact you, Robin, because they're like, 214 - > okay, maybe he can help me, but then they just are they get um 215 - > offended, you know, that you uh say that their business isn't 216 - > working the way that they think it should. 217 - > And so that's kind of like um early on in someone's 218 - > development. 219 - > And as you evolve as a person, you can take in many, many, many 220 - > more perspectives and see yourself within a constellation 221 - > of the system and say, okay, well, I'm one part of this, but 222 - > I'm gonna objectively step back and look at all these different 223 - > pieces, like you said, attacking the problem as a problem instead 224 - > of it's about me.

225 - > And so that's what the kind of thing we're able to measure in 226 - > how people speak and talk about themselves and tell stories 227 - > about where they've been and and what they've accomplished. 228 - > SPEAKER_01: I find with you know, founders or MDs or CEOs, 229 - > often they miss the common denominator in the problem, 230 - > which strange enough is them. 231 - > So um, you know, it is constantly, and there are 232 - > certain red flags I see, people that you know profess that the 233 - > whole team loves them, never had never had a better boss.

234 - > Sounds like um a president, we know, really. 235 - > But uh no names to be but you see a lot of this, and yeah, I I 236 - > think understanding themselves and their stories and and 237 - > everything else is is really valuable. 238 - > So if you've got a way of scoring that with um of 239 - > identifying it, that's a valuable tool. 240 - > SPEAKER_02: Thank you.

241 - > Yeah. 242 - > And what you just spoke to is a lot of um, we call it team 243 - > climate IQ. 244 - > And so the foundation of what that construct is about is are 245 - > you able to facilitate a flow state or are you able to create 246 - > psychological safety with the people that you're working with 247 - > enough that they are motivated to do their jobs and really see 248 - > you as a leader? 249 - > And so you can, by someone talking about their experiences 250 - > leading a team or telling stories about that, we can 251 - > assess uh a lot of those patterns also.

252 - > So it's really fascinating. 253 - > Like someone, you know, I I've met many people who think 254 - > they're really good leaders and you talk to the individuals that 255 - > they work with, and you know, obviously it's a different 256 - > story. 257 - > So these are all things we can we can score and measure. 258 - > SPEAKER_01: I actually think the best leaders don't think they're 259 - > good leaders.

260 - > They're they're trying to improve their leadership, and 261 - > you step back and look at them and you go, well, do you know 262 - > you've got a lot right? 263 - > I think, you know, people who have not got that imposter 264 - > syndrome part of them, you know, struggle to become a leader. 265 - > You know, I think that that's a natural imposter syndrome is a 266 - > natural part of our makeup. 267 - > And, you know, if you ever meet someone who hasn't got it, 268 - > please steer clear of them because they're that's not 269 - > normal.

270 - > SPEAKER_02: Yes. 271 - > And I think that um, yeah, you tend to see, you know, there's 272 - > that adage of if you, you know, hire people that are smarter 273 - > than you or that are better at their jobs than you. 274 - > And I I absolutely agree with that. 275 - > I mean, I think if you're seeing someone who's leading a team and 276 - > they think they're the smartest person in the room, it's it's 277 - > probably a flag.

278 - > But, you know, we also have um there there's many, many 279 - > dynamics, but I think these are we're kind of getting at like 280 - > central themes, you know. 281 - > There's always variations on the theme, but these are like good 282 - > rules of thumb, in my opinion. 283 - > SPEAKER_01: I don't think rules of thumb are really important. 284 - > You know, there there'll always be variations, but um, they are 285 - > important.

286 - > If you look at, I would say a good leader is um Richard 287 - > Branson, for instance. 288 - > He believes look after your people and they'll look after 289 - > your clients. 290 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 291 - > SPEAKER_01: Which I think there's a lot of truth in that.

292 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 293 - > SPEAKER_01: But he also is not afraid of employing people that 294 - > he sees as being a lot cleverer than he is. 295 - > What he does is he goes out and finds the very, very, very, very 296 - > best person in the world to run his new company and then bribes 297 - > them as much as he needs to to get him over to run it. 298 - > And I think that's that's clever.

299 - > That that's that he has got no kind of issues around employing 300 - > the right people and employing people that know more than he 301 - > does. 302 - > SPEAKER_02: And giving them agency. 303 - > I think that's a very important thing. 304 - > You have to give people, they have to feel like they have 305 - > agency to make decisions if they're if you're gonna appoint 306 - > them, you know, as a leader.

307 - > So yeah, no, there's so much. 308 - > I mean, I imagine a world where everyone has some has taken some 309 - > form of this and has a pretty good idea of where they stand in 310 - > their own developmental patterns and are working towards 311 - > improving that. 312 - > Like that's my vision. 313 - > And I would love to see businesses all around the world 314 - > implementing these kinds of assessment tools and growth 315 - > tools so that people can make better decisions in business and 316 - > have better outcomes, both financially and innovation.

317 - > I think we would see a very different world if we used more 318 - > of these capabilities, you know, and and they're possible now. 319 - > SPEAKER_01: So so would you say things have changed in business 320 - > quite a bit? 321 - > So I mean I often used to use the maybe analogy of you've got 322 - > a kind of dictatorship. 323 - > So dictatorship used to be the old way of running the business.

324 - > Everything generally ran through the CEO or founder. 325 - > There wasn't good delegation. 326 - > You know, it worked, but it was very restrictive. 327 - > Whereas a dynamic team environment is much more common 328 - > now.

329 - > Would you agree with that? 330 - > Or am I kind of for the most part, yeah. 331 - > SPEAKER_02: I think we've definitely moved in that 332 - > direction. 333 - > I know in in the US, um, Gen Z has really pushed a lot of more 334 - > of the flat organizational model.

335 - > And I think with COVID, we also got obviously a lot of people 336 - > working from home, which changed their dynamics a lot in terms of 337 - > like even just interacting with people at higher levels than 338 - > yourself, you know, in a more casual way. 339 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I definitely think the authoritarian bit's 340 - > gone. 341 - > Um, hopefully. 342 - > I remember being on site and having a director throw his hard 343 - > hat at me.

344 - > That wouldn't uh I don't think that happened now. 345 - > SPEAKER_02: So um Yeah, that doesn't sound as right, you 346 - > know. 347 - > I yeah, I hear tales of of past, you know, decades of business or 348 - > or generations. 349 - > I'm like, wow.

350 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah. 351 - > But then I was uh kind of brought up in an era where in 352 - > some things we were quite old-fashioned. 353 - > So you know, they used to still cook eggs and steak on their 354 - > shovels, but that was kind of behind the times, even then, you 355 - > know, so it was a bit bit odd. 356 - > But it's a strange industry, you know, construction.

357 - > Um it's a very male-oriented industry. 358 - > I was thinking the other day, actually, I've never had a woman 359 - > boss in my life, ever. 360 - > That's a strange dynamic, isn't it? 361 - > Yeah, yeah, well, never have, which is you know, it's odd.

362 - > I I wasn't anything, no, no kind of negative thoughts about a 363 - > woman boss, just never have had one. 364 - > SPEAKER_02: Oh, interesting. 365 - > Yeah, I mean it kind of makes sense in the construction 366 - > industry, but yeah, yeah. 367 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

368 - > But now I see so many dynamic, amazing women in the industry. 369 - > And in fact, I have a lot of clients that are women that run 370 - > construction companies. 371 - > So, you know, things are changing. 372 - > And they bring, you know, you've got to face it, women and men 373 - > are different in many ways, and they bring that a uniqueness to 374 - > it that I think men don't.

375 - > So, you know, they're very good at what they do. 376 - > And in fact, all the ones that are in them in my mentoring are 377 - > actually really open to mentoring, much more open than 378 - > some of the others. 379 - > SPEAKER_02: I do think we have seen a an openness to things 380 - > like mentoring, mindfulness at work, you know, just well-being, 381 - > employee well-being in general. 382 - > That is really helpful.

383 - > And I think that's uh one of the most exciting aspects of 384 - > business in in the modern era. 385 - > But I also think that there's still, like if you take the 386 - > coaching industry, for example, um, this is not to denigrate the 387 - > coaching industry writ large. 388 - > There's a lot of amazing coaches, but it's still very 389 - > informal, like how people are trained and what approaches 390 - > they're taking. 391 - > And it's it's a bit of a Wild West situation in terms of um 392 - > like the professionalization of coaching.

393 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 394 - > I I mean I think the coach industry's got a terrible name. 395 - > Honestly, I see so many business coaches out there which they 396 - > just haven't got the experience. 397 - > And they're they're coaching, not mentoring.

398 - > There's a big difference, as well in my mind, the difference. 399 - > I mean, I see myself more as a mentor that does a bit of 400 - > coaching. 401 - > SPEAKER_02: The term mentor has less of a a connotation to it. 402 - > I agree.

403 - > It's yeah, yeah. 404 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, a mentor, as I see, is someone 405 - > who's been there, done that, and is more descriptive in in or 406 - > prescriptive in in what they they um suggest you do from 407 - > experience. 408 - > Whereas a coach is is really about you trying to find your 409 - > way and their support you do. 410 - > So I think there's a clear difference, and um different 411 - > people need different approaches, really.

412 - > But yeah, I think in both the UK and America, I think it's you 413 - > know, for the coach industry is everyone's it's a high-ticket 414 - > industry. 415 - > So everyone sets themselves up as a coach, and they're not 416 - > necessarily interested in the outcomes for their clients, 417 - > they're interested in the high ticket, and I think it's really 418 - > difficult now to you know make yourself appear different from 419 - > that. 420 - > In the UK, for instance, we've got a lot of property coaching, 421 - > and you know, I have done so many developments, it's 422 - > ridiculous.

423 - > I've been involved in so much stuff, uh, and these guys that 424 - > are coaching people for thousands and thousands of 425 - > pounds just haven't got the experience. 426 - > They've done a little bit of development and they've decided 427 - > to add this to their portfolio of incomes, and they they don't 428 - > know what they're talking about. 429 - > I can honestly say that. 430 - > It's a really difficult area to kind of break into because 431 - > people see all these people out there doing it and wearing it 432 - > down, yeah.

433 - > Yeah, yeah, they they just don't the trust is gone. 434 - > The trust is gone. 435 - > So, you know, it does worry me in mentoring and coaching. 436 - > You know, it's such an important thing that people get the right 437 - > mentor and they get someone of experience and someone that can 438 - > help them, and they don't.

439 - > They often they often they don't. 440 - > They end up with someone who has decided to become a coach on a 441 - > two-week course and um they're off. 442 - > SPEAKER_02: Exactly. 443 - > And so one of the things we're actually I as a quick anecdote.

444 - > So I was speaking to a founder the other day, and she said one 445 - > of her coaches, you know, often the um conversation started 446 - > with, what do you want to work on today? 447 - > to the founder. 448 - > And the founder's like, What do you mean? 449 - > What do you mean?

450 - > Like, I don't there was no roadmap, you know, and I think I 451 - > think we all need roadmaps to look at, you know, even with 452 - > mentors, they're sort of setting the bar of like where you can 453 - > go. 454 - > And I think we all need those aspirational goals and roadmap 455 - > to like see ourselves in a higher version of ourselves and 456 - > to to aspire and to work towards. 457 - > And so if you're gonna go to a personal trainer and they don't 458 - > have a roadmap for how you're gonna get stronger, that doesn't 459 - > really make a lot of sense to keep working with them.

460 - > So yeah, I I'm really passionate about kind of adding more rigor 461 - > to the coaching industry and to having tools like this to set a 462 - > baseline for somebody so they can look at, okay, here's where 463 - > I am now. 464 - > And here's as I move up along this vertical development 465 - > trajectory, here's how I can improve my purposeful agility or 466 - > improve my team, you know, my emotional resilience, things 467 - > like that. 468 - > So that's one of the things that we're really excited about 469 - > built, helping build for the market.

470 - > SPEAKER_01: That is so important. 471 - > Have a roadmap. 472 - > It's much easier, I find, in my workshop groups to do that than 473 - > one-to-one clients. 474 - > Trying to get the baseline is the complicated thing.

475 - > Because unfortunately, people don't always tell you the truth. 476 - > Right. 477 - > It's a key thing, you know? 478 - > It's a key input factor, yes.

479 - > Yeah, it's just it's just an embarrassment thing, but people 480 - > don't. 481 - > I mean, I remember working with someone for three or four 482 - > months, at which point I found out that they literally were 483 - > about to go bust. 484 - > Now I I hadn't got that information prior to that, and 485 - > they had skirted around, you know, they'd lied about cash 486 - > flow and other things. 487 - > And the thing is, three or four Once earlier, I might have.

488 - > Can't guarantee it. 489 - > I might have been able to save them. 490 - > SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah. 491 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

492 - > SPEAKER_02: I know. 493 - > SPEAKER_01: Change my process to actually ask those questions, 494 - > but it doesn't mean that people are going to answer honestly. 495 - > SPEAKER_02: But at least you give them the clear opportunity 496 - > to do so. 497 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

498 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 499 - > SPEAKER_01: Absolutely. 500 - > Yeah. 501 - > SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, it's interesting.

502 - > I have a um a colleague who started a company that actually 503 - > can analyze transcript data for truth and deception analysis. 504 - > He can't tell you if the person's actually lying or 505 - > telling the truth, but he can directionally point you to say, 506 - > yes, this person is likely deceiving or telling you the 507 - > truth. 508 - > So I think it's fascinating what is possible now with transcript 509 - > evaluation and with AI coming in and looking at patterns, because 510 - > even if, you know, you're not going to catch everybody, for an 511 - > instance, like what you said, but there's a lot in like a 512 - > person's minute ways of choosing words or their tone or like 513 - > different behavioral cues that if you put it all together and 514 - > you and you analyze it, you can start to look at some very 515 - > interesting patterns.

516 - > SPEAKER_01: So yeah, patterns are really important. 517 - > I put so much stuff through AI. 518 - > Almost everything I do has transcript. 519 - > Even my workshops now.

520 - > I I have a little recorder and it makes a transcript of the 521 - > whole workshop, the whole day. 522 - > Just leave it running all day. 523 - > And the value I get out of that, you know, it tells me how often 524 - > I go off piece, you know, and start talking about something 525 - > else. 526 - > You know, it tells me, you know, what hit home, what didn't.

527 - > Right. 528 - > You know, it's so, so important. 529 - > But also, out of that transcript comes a month's worth of social 530 - > media posts and you know, key learning areas, and you know, 531 - > it's just so much stuff comes out of it, and using AI to 532 - > process it really quickly. 533 - > As long as you're aware, and I love the fact that my AI use, 534 - > which is Clawed, gets things wrong.

535 - > It's helpful it gets things wrong because I always check 536 - > things. 537 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah. 538 - > You do have to. 539 - > I've noticed a lot of uh, yeah, the hallucinations or just 540 - > something that I, yeah.

541 - > It's it's important to it's um tresperify. 542 - > And, you know, I was gonna say one of our capabilities is if 543 - > someone has a lot of publicly available, you know, transcripts 544 - > from speeches they've given or talks or interviews or things 545 - > like that, we can actually take that and ingest it and come up 546 - > with the same, a lot of the same scoring um that that than just 547 - > taking the assessment. 548 - > So yeah, I mean, even internally, if you wanted to 549 - > look at your own uh vertical development or some of these 550 - > contracts, you can do that with your your workshop presentation 551 - > data and things like that.

552 - > So yeah, it's pretty exciting. 553 - > SPEAKER_01: AI I find quite exciting. 554 - > I I I see the kind of the downside, and I see that people 555 - > will start using it and not checking it and you know, 556 - > mistakes we made and all that kind of stuff. 557 - > But I you know, for me, it just it saves me days a week at the 558 - > moment.

559 - > Yes. 560 - > Um, and it allows me to do so much more that I wouldn't, I 561 - > just couldn't have had time to do. 562 - > So it's really helpful. 563 - > SPEAKER_02: It led me to this podcast.

564 - > SPEAKER_01: Absolutely. 565 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 566 - > Because I use uh thing called Pod Pitch, and they um they find 567 - > you know relevant podcasts for you to put to pitch to 568 - > essentially. 569 - > So so AI is everywhere.

570 - > SPEAKER_01: Podcasts, I I you know, we're hoping to start 571 - > another podcast soon just for construction. 572 - > It'll be a full full video in a studio podcast. 573 - > So um anyone listening to this, we're still looking for 574 - > sponsors, particularly want to reach out to any builders' 575 - > merchants that are interested in working with us. 576 - > But yeah, so we're I do this as a hobby.

577 - > This is you know, it's it's a real hobby. 578 - > I get some lovely feedback that people have had some really real 579 - > nice gold nuggets out of the podcast, you know, things like I 580 - > never saw it like that, and now it kind of makes it all clear 581 - > for me. 582 - > Just little bits and pieces that we've come up and said, and I've 583 - > met some amazing people on it. 584 - > So, you know, that's been really good.

585 - > Yeah, bringing it up. 586 - > So you were talking about your six tests. 587 - > Should you all just outline those then? 588 - > SPEAKER_02: Sure.

589 - > Yeah, so six constructs. 590 - > So um, and what that is is really just a um a think about 591 - > it as a keystone of like a keystone metric, like something 592 - > that, you know, you can't measure everything, but if you 593 - > measure these things, you're more likely to better understand 594 - > kind of the holistic nature of a person and their capabilities in 595 - > in this, you know, in this case to for to do a startup or to run 596 - > a to small, medium enterprise.

597 - > So their coachability, uh, we talked about that a little bit, 598 - > purposeful agility. 599 - > It means about it talks a lot about pivoting. 600 - > Like how do you pivot quickly when you need to while keeping 601 - > the the goal or mission in mind? 602 - > Um, emotional resilience.

603 - > So, you know, we all are somewhat familiar with that, but 604 - > just how do you handle stress and pressure, emotional 605 - > pressure? 606 - > Like what happens to you? 607 - > Do you have um systems in place to manage stress because 608 - > otherwise you just sort of tend to implode or burn out? 609 - > We talk about team climate IQ.

610 - > And so that's really what I said before about psychological 611 - > safety, about creating a flow state, the presence of a leader 612 - > and their ability to hold space for a team to motivate them. 613 - > And then the strategic complexity is is what I've 614 - > touched on it a little bit in all of them, but it's really 615 - > this ability to hold complexity and perspective over time and 616 - > and the ability to like really frame things as a constellation 617 - > rather than just an individual experience.

618 - > SPEAKER_01: And so So would that be kind of seeing the wider 619 - > picture? 620 - > I'm sorry, say that again. 621 - > Would that be like seeing the wider picture? 622 - > Because framing something like constellation rather than 623 - > individual is is perhaps a bit highbrow.

624 - > How would you how would you Yeah, it is. 625 - > SPEAKER_02: It's I think sometimes our I think that's you 626 - > know, the naming of it. 627 - > SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying my audience, I'm not saying my 628 - > audience uh are not highbrow. 629 - > I'm just saying that there's a lot of builders that listen to 630 - > this.

631 - > And um it's it's trying to put things in a language that people 632 - > actually understand because I think what you're saying is 633 - > really interesting and really important. 634 - > It's just getting that language so that it's completely kind of 635 - > understood. 636 - > SPEAKER_02: Well, we could workshop it a little bit, you 637 - > know, Rob. 638 - > Systems thinking.

639 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 640 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 641 - > Like, are you a systems thinker and how good are you? 642 - > How proficient are are you at really juggling a lot of balls 643 - > at once and seeing them objectively?

644 - > SPEAKER_01: Does that kind of be pro yeah, so would that be 645 - > process driven? 646 - > Are you process driven? 647 - > SPEAKER_02: Well, I think it's kind of like with um, you know, 648 - > they've I've I've heard this, I look I listen to the Scott 649 - > Galloway podcast a lot, and I love how he how he talks about 650 - > the future of work and how he made this statement that like 651 - > it's not that we're gonna, it's not that, you know, white-collar 652 - > jobs are all gonna go away.

653 - > It's that the people that really know how to manage AI are gonna 654 - > get the jobs in the future. 655 - > And what he's I would call that strategic complexity because AI 656 - > is quite complex, like we have all these tools coming at us, 657 - > and they're taking, they are taking a lot of functions away, 658 - > but there are people who are learning how to manage the 659 - > actual systems themselves and position themselves as a person 660 - > who can manage AI. 661 - > And so I would call that like a higher ability of um what we 662 - > call strategic complexity or systems thinking.

663 - > And they're not doing they're not imploding under the 664 - > pressure. 665 - > Go ahead. 666 - > SPEAKER_01: I I totally get that. 667 - > So if you go back uh, you know, quite a way when machines were 668 - > coming in, you know, machinery in in factories.

669 - > Yes, and and it was doing people out of out of work, you know, 670 - > big thing about it. 671 - > Um, you know, there was marches and demonstrations and stuff 672 - > like that, like it was gonna stop. 673 - > SPEAKER_02: Aren't those lights when the the people that used to 674 - > be? 675 - > Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah.

676 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know your history. 677 - > So um, yeah, so you know, all these changes. 678 - > The clever man or the or woman, you know, I've got to grant 679 - > myself there. 680 - > In those days it was men, but you know, or women, would have 681 - > learned about the machines and how to look after them, how to 682 - > install them and how to use them.

683 - > Yeah, absolutely. 684 - > So um it yeah, exactly. 685 - > And I think I I totally agree with you on AI, you know, that 686 - > we've got to embrace it. 687 - > I I also think we have to control it.

688 - > If we give it free reign, we've got a problem because there are 689 - > there are things it's gonna start doing, and privacy is one 690 - > of the things that you know is a worry uh around AI. 691 - > But yeah, I think it's uh but I mean I'm I use AI so much now, 692 - > and even I go, well, actually that's a bit limited because it 693 - > can only remember so much about me, and I want it to remember so 694 - > much more, but I can also see that if it remembers more, then 695 - > that's a privacy issue.

696 - > So, you know, how how do you how do you work around that? 697 - > But I what it what it Claude does is I can set a file up and 698 - > I can get it to do loads, loads of reports, I can put one in the 699 - > file, and then it can refer to the reports, right? 700 - > Which is quite useful. 701 - > So that's it, that's its memory, but it's a paper, like almost a 702 - > paper version.

703 - > So if you delete the report, it's gone from its memory. 704 - > So that kind of works. 705 - > SPEAKER_02: No, I think we have to have these guardrails in 706 - > place, and we know we're figuring out it's like the 707 - > technology is moving faster than the culture, and this has 708 - > happened for many decades at this point, but it's like it is 709 - > hard to kind of keep up with the pace of change, and that's why I 710 - > think this idea of um being higher in your strategic 711 - > thinking or strategic complexity is really powerful.

712 - > And there are ways you can grow that muscle, you know, like 713 - > build that muscle. 714 - > And so that those are some of the things that we would then 715 - > coach on specifically, or you know, maybe there's a future 716 - > where you train AI on your vertical development baseline 717 - > and then it prompts you and helps you. 718 - > Oh, you know, here you could have said XYZ, or you know, it 719 - > has that framing in your own calls or presentations where it 720 - > can kind of coach you in that way.

721 - > SPEAKER_01: So, how accurate is your scoring then? 722 - > So you score people and you tell them kind of, you know, where 723 - > they where they are on a what's the baseline? 724 - > Is it other scores or is it, you know? 725 - > How how does it work?

726 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so we we brought in a lot of different 727 - > um, we looked at a lot of different existing frameworks 728 - > and research and so to come up with the six constructs that we 729 - > have now for our one assessment that um again we can build 730 - > others, but we we took a bunch of research, we digested it, and 731 - > then we looked at correlations between the constructs we're 732 - > looking at and business outcomes. 733 - > So, you know, how positive were the outcomes from the businesses 734 - > of the leaders when they had these high scores on these 735 - > factors?

736 - > And so in terms of accuracy, I think that's a really 737 - > interesting question. 738 - > What I would say to that is that the way we began scoring was 739 - > human-based. 740 - > And so we would score based on the transcripts, and now we have 741 - > AI doing it, and we're finding we're getting more and more 742 - > accurate as a you know connected to or as opposed to like having 743 - > just a human do it. 744 - > So the accuracy level is now in like the 80th to 90th percentile 745 - > compared to a human doing it.

746 - > So we're getting better all the time. 747 - > What we tend to say now is we have AI do like a first pass, 748 - > and then a human will come in and confirm whether they agree 749 - > with the way that AI So this might be way way off base, and 750 - > perhaps you could describe, uh, explain the difference. 751 - > SPEAKER_01: The only kind of thing like this I've come across 752 - > is disk profiling. 753 - > SPEAKER_02: Right.

754 - > SPEAKER_01: Okay, so which I love. 755 - > I'm still finding a way to cost-effectively bring it to my 756 - > clients because it's I I was just shocked how accurate it 757 - > was, you know, considering you seem to be answering some random 758 - > questions, but when it actually profiles you, it's pretty good. 759 - > Is it a long way from there or is it based on that kind of 760 - > technology and an approach or completely different? 761 - > SPEAKER_02: It's a great question.

762 - > Um, I would say that the so I've taken disc. 763 - > Um, I disc is more about like your personality 764 - > characteristics. 765 - > So like are you dominating? 766 - > I forget it was what's the S stand for?

767 - > SPEAKER_01: Um, it's uh it's uh I call it it's dominating 768 - > influencer. 769 - > Um there's um supporter. 770 - > There's the blue one, which is uh really detailed. 771 - > Yeah.

772 - > If you've got someone like an accountant, you want them to 773 - > have a lot of blue in them, and there's green one which is 774 - > emotional, I think it's empathy. 775 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 776 - > SPEAKER_01: So it's only four. 777 - > And every person has a mix of those four.

778 - > And I just find it's really clever because it's so, so, so 779 - > accurate. 780 - > And you I just, you know, whoever came up with it, it's 781 - > it's pretty good. 782 - > Um, you know, if everyone understood their team's disc 783 - > profile and their disc profile, they would manage their team in 784 - > a completely different way. 785 - > SPEAKER_02: Yes, and I think it's a really these are really 786 - > helpful tools.

787 - > I mean, there's many assessments. 788 - > Um, what I would say is that they don't so my experience of 789 - > disc was that I got a report and then I understood generally how 790 - > my team what you know how where they landed on their disc 791 - > profile. 792 - > And we got a PDF and nobody ever really did anything with it. 793 - > And now that was at my organization.

794 - > But also it doesn't, so let's just take like the influencer 795 - > personality. 796 - > So that person might be good at team climate IQ, like if we were 797 - > to correlate it with our you know, constructs, they may be 798 - > really good at that. 799 - > But it's not really telling you it's and maybe they're less 800 - > detail-oriented and less of a dominating personality, or I 801 - > think that's the the D. 802 - > But it's not really telling you their ability to hold complexity 803 - > over time, or their ability to um handle emotional regulation, 804 - > or their ability uh how coachable are they?

805 - > Like these are um aspects of their behavioral characteristics 806 - > that it's not really highlighting. 807 - > So it gives you some information, but not not what 808 - > we're talking about, if that makes sense. 809 - > SPEAKER_01: I really yours is a much more in-depth view of 810 - > someone, and it's more purposeful for their role within 811 - > the business. 812 - > SPEAKER_02: And there's a roadmap for how you can how you 813 - > can change yourself over time according to these constructs.

814 - > SPEAKER_01: Okay. 815 - > Okay. 816 - > So you create that for your clients. 817 - > So what kind of clients do you work with?

818 - > SPEAKER_02: So we've been primarily working with venture 819 - > capital firms and accelerator programs. 820 - > And we are moving into, we're doing a pivot of sorts into um 821 - > middle market corporations. 822 - > So companies that have employees uh, you know, ranging from 50 to 823 - > 2,000. 824 - > So that's gonna be our our sweet spot um going forward.

825 - > Yeah. 826 - > SPEAKER_01: Okay. 827 - > Sounds sounds interesting. 828 - > In fact, uh my own experience with venture capitalists was um 829 - > a company that I won't name that got taken over by venture 830 - > capitalists, and they didn't have a clue how to run the 831 - > company.

832 - > In fact, they weren't really interested in the company as 833 - > itself, it was just what uh what its value was and what profit it 834 - > made. 835 - > The trouble is that short kind of outlook was actually very 836 - > detrimental to the company because the company had some 837 - > really good connections and was well renowned for what it did. 838 - > I think it became a problem. 839 - > And and also this was a a hundred million hundred, yeah, a 840 - > hundred million uh turnover company in the UK.

841 - > And I think they just didn't support the CEO at all. 842 - > You know, he didn't he didn't get aboard because that was 843 - > expensive, you know, he didn't get that support. 844 - > And I think when when you see kind of things like that happen, 845 - > you think, oh gosh, you know, very good at the figures, very 846 - > good at numbers, very good at the detail, not understanding 847 - > people at all. 848 - > SPEAKER_02: Well, I think unfortunately the the way the 849 - > current venture model works, you know, nine out of ten companies 850 - > are gonna fail.

851 - > The one is gonna carry the funds, and one or two that, you 852 - > know, go gangbusters. 853 - > That's what everyone's betting on. 854 - > And so it's a bit of a numbers game in that way. 855 - > And I do think as soon as, you know, companies show signs that 856 - > they're not gonna make it, they just kind of move on with them.

857 - > And so that's one of the roadblocks we've found to kind 858 - > of some of our offerings is that it's not that it doesn't make 859 - > sense to to evaluate founders, you know, accord along these 860 - > constructs pre- or post-investment, but there's a 861 - > mindset that, well, most of them are gonna fail anyway, and we're 862 - > good at picking winners. 863 - > So that's kind of what we've run into a bit in the venture 864 - > capital industry. 865 - > I'm not saying there's not forward-thinking venture 866 - > capitalists, but that's essentially what we've heard 867 - > from the market.

868 - > SPEAKER_01: That's absolutely in line with what I've from my one 869 - > experience. 870 - > So yeah, that's that's in line with what I've heard as well. 871 - > So it's uh it's definitely challenging. 872 - > And I think, you know, in my industry, like I said, the 873 - > failure rate is really high.

874 - > So one in five companies every year fail. 875 - > Forty percent of all companies actually don't make a profit. 876 - > In fact, they don't even make enough for the the founder or 877 - > the CEO or the MD, whatever you want to call them, to actually 878 - > take home a salary or a wage that would be equivalent to 879 - > working with someone else. 880 - > So it's a big the the industry is has got a big problem.

881 - > Um, but there is plenty of work around because there aren't a 882 - > lot of good contractors. 883 - > I don't know how that varies in the UK. 884 - > You've got a licensing system in sorry, in the USA. 885 - > You've got a licensing system in the US, haven't you, for for 886 - > contractors?

887 - > SPEAKER_02: To be honest, I don't know. 888 - > I I assume so, but I don't know how to do that. 889 - > SPEAKER_01: I can tell you, I can tell you you have, yeah. 890 - > SPEAKER_02: Okay, okay.

891 - > I'll take care of it. 892 - > SPEAKER_01: So every every contractor have to has to have a 893 - > license to carry out work. 894 - > That makes sense. 895 - > In the UK, we're unlicensed.

896 - > We've got parts elements that are licensed, so anything to do 897 - > gas or electricity, you've got to have a qualification, which 898 - > is renewed. 899 - > Um, so that part of it is the general construction work. 900 - > Um, and we're hoping to move towards licensing, but it's uh 901 - > it's a bit of a struggle at the moment. 902 - > And and I would definitely support licensing, but I think 903 - > there's an element of the industry who's a bit scared 904 - > about it because they're wondering if it's going to stop 905 - > them from operating because they haven't got any formal 906 - > qualifications, and it shouldn't be about that, it should be 907 - > about experience.

908 - > So, you know, it's quite important. 909 - > So um, yeah, just uh just another side. 910 - > Well, that's been that's been really interesting. 911 - > So is there anything else you'd like to tell my listeners then 912 - > before we kind of come to the end on the podcast?

913 - > SPEAKER_02: No, just um just to consider, you know, thinking 914 - > about these dimensions in leadership and ways in which the 915 - > um we could have a a future that's got more um positive 916 - > people dynamics, more you know, self-aware leaders with with 917 - > higher capacity and better innovation outcomes. 918 - > I think, you know, we're we're in a very disruptive time and we 919 - > have the opportunity to, we always have the opportunity to 920 - > intervene in our own ways and in our own spheres of influence.

921 - > So I would just encourage people, if you're interested in 922 - > what we're doing, you know, this isn't just for for startup 923 - > founders, it's for business owners of of any kind. 924 - > And I think any everyone can benefit from knowing things like 925 - > how coachable and how agile they are in making decisions. 926 - > So these are just constructs that matter to me in business. 927 - > And I I hope that um it's been inspirational at least to hear 928 - > that um that there are ways to improve leadership and and 929 - > dynamics.

930 - > SPEAKER_01: So oh, I th I think there are, and I I I you know 931 - > it'd be terrible if you were set in your ways and you couldn't 932 - > move. 933 - > SPEAKER_02: Um people believe that though, the fixed mindset. 934 - > SPEAKER_01: No, I I I I don't believe that. 935 - > I think you we've all got our eureka moment.

936 - > SPEAKER_02: I can tell you have a growth mindset. 937 - > It's it's it's very it's refreshing. 938 - > SPEAKER_01: Well, it's it's about pivoting, isn't it? 939 - > It it's it's knowing that there's a problem.

940 - > You pivot, you you move, you you change. 941 - > And we've had a few, you know, uh running a construction 942 - > company is is pretty hard. 943 - > Uh running a coaching and mentoring business is I would 944 - > say harder in some ways because we keep on having environments 945 - > and and funding, and other things change. 946 - > So rather than panic and you know, think the world's gonna 947 - > end and you know you're gonna have to go and find another job, 948 - > you sit down and you pivot and you think about it and you 949 - > think, what am I doing?

950 - > What can I improve? 951 - > What what can I change? 952 - > You know, what how can I adapt to this new environment? 953 - > And you've got to do that without the fear.

954 - > The fear stops you thinking. 955 - > So you've got to have that ability to do it without the 956 - > fear, and it's it's quite difficult. 957 - > And I think it is a skill you can pick up, and the more you do 958 - > it, the more you realise there's a there's a solution out there. 959 - > My father, who was uh just an amazing bloke, and I I I really, 960 - > you know, I'm very privileged because not a lot of people look 961 - > up to their father.

962 - > There's many people who don't, but he was an amazing bloke, and 963 - > he unfortunately died during COVID. 964 - > So, you know, the celebration of his life was 10 people in a 965 - > church, because that's all we're allowed. 966 - > Uh not a church, actually, a creme creme, a creme. 967 - > And I'd like to think because of the business he ran and you know 968 - > the local that there'd been a few hundred people there.

969 - > I never got that closure when he died. 970 - > But he was really such a believer in people, and he was 971 - > really good at pivoting, and he was really good at you know 972 - > thinking outside the box. 973 - > Just uh, you know, he definitely instilled a lot of his values, 974 - > you know, on me. 975 - > SPEAKER_02: And they live on, yeah, absolutely.

976 - > That's fantastic. 977 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and and you know, core values are so 978 - > important to me. 979 - > And you know, but when I first came across them, it was like 980 - > yeah, okay, something for your website and for the clients, and 981 - > maybe on a brochure somewhere. 982 - > Didn't realise then how important they are to a 983 - > business.

984 - > I think you Know having that open mindset to change. 985 - > Yes. 986 - > Yeah, and measuring it, you know, and measuring change and 987 - > and making sure that um, you know, you don't close off. 988 - > You can you must investigate every idea, even if it proves 989 - > out to be a really bad idea, investigate it with an open 990 - > mind.

991 - > Because at least you've thought about it or you've tried or 992 - > you've, you know, and then you can rule it out. 993 - > But also there's consistency there because just for because 994 - > you do something, and this is where you know I started by 995 - > saying consistency is kind of the biggest thing. 996 - > Just because you start something, you know, it doesn't 997 - > work, doesn't mean it's not going to work. 998 - > And I use this a lot as a kind of as an example.

999 - > You know, you're filling up a reservoir of water, but you 1000 - > can't see over the wall. 1001 - > You can't you can chuck stuck water over, but you can't see 1002 - > over the wall. 1003 - > And what you're waiting for is the water to come back over the 1004 - > wall, and that's your reward, your leads, your success, your 1005 - > money, whatever it is. 1006 - > And you're chucking this water over, you're putting hose pipes 1007 - > over, you're doing everything you can.

1008 - > How many people give up a millimeter? 1009 - > SPEAKER_02: That's true. 1010 - > I know. 1011 - > That's the art of knowing.

1012 - > What is it? 1013 - > And there's a saying, or there's a famous song, know when to hold 1014 - > them, fold them, and walk away. 1015 - > Yeah. 1016 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.

1017 - > Yeah, yeah. 1018 - > Yeah, I know. 1019 - > But the can but you do have to coward of the coward of the 1020 - > county. 1021 - > SPEAKER_02: I think that's one of the things about, I guess you 1022 - > asked me how business has changed.

1023 - > I think that people nowadays have such short attention spans. 1024 - > They do. 1025 - > It's just remarkable. 1026 - > Like I feel like every generation is just like split 1027 - > attention.

1028 - > And I think that's really doing a disservice to that commitment, 1029 - > that consistency. 1030 - > We want really quick wins. 1031 - > And um, you know, some businesses are harder than 1032 - > others, but I think you know, that maintaining that 1033 - > consistency and having that embedded in what you're doing is 1034 - > so critical. 1035 - > SPEAKER_01: And we the big problem is is every business 1036 - > from the outside looks more successful than it is.

1037 - > SPEAKER_02: Yes. 1038 - > SPEAKER_01: And every business from the inside looks less 1039 - > successful than it is. 1040 - > Okay. 1041 - > SPEAKER_02: And because of social media, very interesting 1042 - > way to put it, yeah, yeah.

1043 - > SPEAKER_01: And because of social media, that's how we see 1044 - > life. 1045 - > Everyone looks more successful than we are, happier, prettier, 1046 - > you know. 1047 - > And and we don't feel like that all the time. 1048 - > But they don't feel like that all the time.

1049 - > And they're not more successful than you are, they're just out 1050 - > there on social media pretending they are. 1051 - > And you know, it's really social media, it's most probably the 1052 - > worst thing that ever happened to the human race. 1053 - > And we we all use it, and I use it for guessing clients, and I 1054 - > use it a lot, but it's still mostly the worst thing ever 1055 - > happened because we have got instant uh gratification on 1056 - > there, and we've got instant knowledge that is fake, you 1057 - > know, and we we really can't tell what's true and what isn't.

1058 - > I saw a great one of Richard Branson selling a platform where 1059 - > you can make millions of pounds out of investing£10.50, you 1060 - > know. 1061 - > Uh and I knew it was a fake, but it was really difficult to spot. 1062 - > It was really, really difficult to spot.

1063 - > And there's so many of those out there, and and I I've got to 1064 - > blame the platforms. 1065 - > If the platforms are allowing people to do that kind of 1066 - > advertisement, then there's something really, really wrong 1067 - > with them, you know, and that they should be responsible. 1068 - > On British TV, if you advertise something and you make a fake 1069 - > claim or you do it in the wrong way, you're fined. 1070 - > SPEAKER_02: That goes back to values, isn't it?

1071 - > And and what how the platform you're engaging with, how do 1072 - > they define their values as a company? 1073 - > SPEAKER_01: And lots of them don't. 1074 - > I remember as a test, just as a test. 1075 - > Uh I'm quite into automation, so I I like um these these robots 1076 - > Hoovers.

1077 - > Okay. 1078 - > And I bought one for my wife. 1079 - > That's really sexist. 1080 - > I apologize.

1081 - > So I bought one. 1082 - > I bought one. 1083 - > Um, and my wife went mad. 1084 - > My wife went mad at me and went, Oh, yeah, it's just so rubbish, 1085 - > it's it's useless.

1086 - > What are you doing buying this thing? 1087 - > You know, she wouldn't be about it now. 1088 - > She we she said stuff every day the the the dog smell that we 1089 - > used to have in our house, we used to have two dogs, went 1090 - > within about two days. 1091 - > Really, really clever little device.

1092 - > Anyway, so I'm on one of the platforms, and uh they're 1093 - > advertising this one with a a base station where it sucks all 1094 - > the cleans it all out and you know, and also what mops the 1095 - > floors. 1096 - > And I thought that's not that. 1097 - > There's no way it was 39 pounds, and I know a good one of those 1098 - > is five, six, seven, eight hundred pounds. 1099 - > So just honestly, just as a test, because I knew what the 1100 - > outcome was gonna be, I ordered it.

1101 - > Right? 1102 - > Came from China. 1103 - > Well, it was a battery-powered brush, that's all it was, most 1104 - > probably worth about three quid. 1105 - > Three quid.

1106 - > Yeah. 1107 - > So it was, you know, it was absolutely so I got on to them. 1108 - > I went, uh, you know, I want money back. 1109 - > And they went, we'll give you half money back.

1110 - > You can keep it. 1111 - > I still want to keep it. 1112 - > It's not what you what was on the video, what was the video 1113 - > was a big proper, you know, robotic um, you know, brush 1114 - > thing, and uh had a base station and it climbed stairs and 1115 - > everything. 1116 - > Um wow.

1117 - > And they went, no, well, okay, we'll give you, you know, three 1118 - > quarters of your money back. 1119 - > I went, look, I'm gonna complain to the the I purposely bought it 1120 - > on a credit card. 1121 - > So I'm gonna play complain to the credit card company that 1122 - > you're cunning people, and kind of we went through and through 1123 - > that. 1124 - > In the end, I think I got my money back and I kept the 1125 - > product, which went straight at the bing because it was 1126 - > completely useless.

1127 - > But this is a company who've got a video out there showing that 1128 - > they do this, that, and the other. 1129 - > It's been like health claims they make on you know, on these 1130 - > platforms for certain things, and it absolutely was nothing 1131 - > like the product. 1132 - > And where's the comeback? 1133 - > Where's the comeback with the platform?

1134 - > You know, where's who's responsible for that? 1135 - > They're like, well, you know. 1136 - > Um, so yeah. 1137 - > So I just thought I'd I'd digress into that story because 1138 - > I it it always makes me laugh a little bit, but anyway, there we 1139 - > are.

1140 - > Anyway, Logan, it's fantastic uh meeting you. 1141 - > Um, lovely to have a chat. 1142 - > Definitely, I I love the fact that you feel that people can 1143 - > change. 1144 - > I think that's really important, as you know, and having a 1145 - > roadmap, I think, to that change is really important.

1146 - > Um, and we must have a catch-up again and uh, you know, see see 1147 - > where your business takes you. 1148 - > SPEAKER_02: Yes, thank you so much for having me. 1149 - > It was a delightful conversation. 1150 - > I appreciate all your thoughtful questions.

1151 - > Thank you. 1152 - > SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Logan. 1153 - > SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to Bust and Beyond with Robin 1154 - > Hayhurst. 1155 - > Be sure to tune in next time and visit his website at 1156 - > robinhayhurst.

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