Why Most Leaders Are Obeyed but Not Followed with Rene Pascal Gonthier

Speaker A: Welcome, um, to the Business Transformation Pitch. I am Greg the CX Goalkeeper, bringing you conversations where transformation, leadership and customer experience meet to create real impact. Did you know 80% of regular listeners haven't subscribed yet? If you enjoy the show, support us by hitting the subscribe button. I promise we will keep raising the bar with the guests ideas and strategies that really matter to you. Because in business, just like in football, this conversation could be the game changer.

Speaker B: I am Greg's AI based assistant. In this episode, Greg had the pleasure of discussing leadership and trust with Rene Gontier. They explored why many leaders are obeyed but not truly followed. And Rene shared his insights on building trust within teams. Rene emphasized that trust is crucial for performance and how a lack of it can cost businesses significantly. Enjoy the episode. The Swiss Future Institute and the AI Future Council connect you with Switzerland's leading experts in AI, uh, digital transformation and leadership. Explore the network at the SwissFutureInstitute. CH opportunities don't happen. We create them. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Business Transformation Pitch with the CX Goalkeeper. Today I'm super thrilled because I am with a great coach, leadership coach Rene Gontier. Hi Rene, how are you?

Speaker C: Hi Greg. Fine, thanks a lot for the session. Looking forward to our exchange.

Speaker B: I'm also looking forward because we already spoke several times at events, um, at the AI Council, at the future, uh, symposium. And I really like your way of doing things and your way of supporting people and coaching people. But before we deep dive in the topic of today, why most leaders are obeyed but not followed and what it cost to the business, let's learn a bit more about today's top player, Rene Conti. Rene, what's the biggest goal of your career so far?

Speaker C: Yeah, I was never CEO to be honest, but I worked closely with them and uh, so my, my goal was always. And I was often the, the sparring partner, the, the guy who sat together with the CEO and uh, he asked me or she asked me questions what I think about uh, this. And always, uh, most often it was more the soft fact is the human. What do you think about the team? What do you think about our next step, the strategy and all these kind of stuff. And um, of course the figures were always present. I was commercial director for more than 25 years and this is bit my topic but uh, my belief is that the figures follow the trust and not the opposite. So I think when you have a team who trusts you, the company, all the employees, not just the sales guys, but as well everyone Tennessee okay, sales is Driving. And then everyone is motivated and aligned. And then with this positive attitude, then that the figures will follow. This is uh, my strong belief and not vice versa, that you have a target and you control every day command and control all the figures and say, hey, you are behind the figures. This gives pressure and the good people, they will maybe leave. So my goal is really to believe into the team, into the human being and to motivate them, to bring them together and then to be successful as a team. This is my goal.

Speaker B: That's great. And I think deducting from what you said, what's the mission of Conte Consulting?

Speaker C: The mission is to support leaders, teams, companies, uh, to find the potential. I strongly believe that in every human being there is a potential. But uh, sometimes not even this person believes in it or knows that this person has this uh, potential and to localize it, to, to develop this and maybe to, to. To change a bit the team. You, you are now with a soccer background and uh, the. The World cup, uh, is running right now. And I think uh, of course the goalkeeper can shoot the goal in a penalty maybe, but I think he's better positioned in the goal and not in. As a striker. So to.

Speaker B: To.

Speaker C: To analyze teams, to support management, uh, boards, uh, to find this and to. To align the team with the strategy and more the. The soft skills. This is uh, where I see my mission.

Speaker B: I, I really like that. And basically I was a goalkeeper and perhaps my feet were not my strongest skill and therefore I decided uh, to use it to choose another role. But every, everybody in the company, as you said, as a talent, as skills. And if you put all these skills together, then you can win the match or you can win in business. But now let's really kick off the discussion. And you mentioned that I think the first thing to touch is what's the difference between a manager, command and control, and a uh, real leader, uh, that people are really following.

Speaker C: In my point of view, a manager, uh, is a position and uh, the people follow you because you have the title, you have maybe the authority. You uh, control the salary, you control the team. Um, and this is more the role. And it's a hierarchy. It's uh, okay, this is my manager. But the leader is someone who listens, who takes the team. As we discussed before, the weaker one, the stronger one, and builds a spirit. And uh, the trust. And um, as I said before, the trust is for me the, the main lever to, to really be successful. And of course in sales it's the figures, it's the revenue it's, it's maybe margin but the, the. The success could be in, in it. In human resources can be something else. But I think when you trust the fluctuation is uh, lower, the engagement is higher. And uh, this is where I see with leaders of course that there is expression that people don't leave a company, they leave a person a manager. And uh, I think this is something I observed uh in my career as well that when people left of course maybe they got another uh, maybe better position outside the company for the career. But uh, often it was that they left their manager because they said no, she, he doesn't. Never listened. Uh, what I wanted just uh, had their own uh, idea and strategy and development career path in mind and not uh, for the team. And uh, this is, this is where I see the difference. Uh, and Stephen Covey, uh, I'm sure you know him, seven habits of most successful people. He says that the character plus the competencies or you have the strategy and the empathy. This is where successful leaders are uh created and not command and control. Uh, topics. I think this is where I see the difference between managers and uh viewers.

Speaker B: And I think you are touching one important topic. People are living and usually are the good one and not the one that are not really performing at their top level. And it's so difficult then to stop that perhaps. Do you have some suggestions, some insights also for leaders here to understand what are the first signs that this trust is fading inside a team even when the results are still good?

Speaker C: Yeah, of course there, it's not one, one solution or one reason. I think when you define a strategy, you discuss this with the team and, or you present it to the team and then they out and say uh yes of course, but no one really acts and believes in it. Or when your strongest team M members getting quiet before they were maybe not. Not always uh, complaining but they challenged you. And I think this is when, when the team reacts and acts and there is a discussion, uh, and an open. And so therefore you have to be open and not just yeah I have an open board, uh open door policy but it's really open and you accept different opinions, uh, different strategies and, and you can discuss this and I think then uh, you create trust and then that there is a dialogue and um, you have to be careful and listen. When the room gets quiet then maybe it's, it's a thing because the figures could still increase but it's then delayed. But maybe it starts before this is when the room gets quiet when there is no one, uh Telling you maybe the truth. Uh, everyone says yes, it's okay, it's okay. Um, but then this could be good. That is really uh, you are on the right path. But it could be the difference. This is uh, I think something uh, I observed in my last 20, 25 years.

Speaker B: And you often speak about trust and there are teams with high level of trust as you said. For example, it's when people speak up, they feel open to have discussion. They are accepted. Different ideas are also accepted. What does weak trust cost for example to a mid sized business or also bigger one in performance, speed and teamwork?

Speaker C: It's difficult to make a number out of it. I think it's what I touched before is when you see that the figures still raise a bit but the team isn't motivated enough. They don't give inputs, they are quiet. Then I think is this the revenue? But then of course they start um, working more internally than externally. Uh, sometimes uh, the decision cycle doubles because maybe sometimes you're there and you say okay, no, we have to do this and we have to do that and no one trusts uh, in the people we have to control again and we have to sit together, we have to have another meeting. And I think when you trust your people, you engaged because you, you onboarded uh, an employee because you thought okay, this person is able to, to fulfill this job. But when you control all the time then you say okay, my manager is controlling me anyway and we have to, to go different rounds until we have a decision. I think trust is speed. Uh, and so when you don't have the trust you double the decision side because uh, nobody commits really. Uh, sometimes when you are not trustworthy and you have, maybe the communication is not good enough. Um, you have duplicate uh work that everyone uh, works on the same topic but there is no alignment. I think to give a figure maybe 20, 15, 20%, uh could be uh, when you don't have the trust and you combine all these different trust, uh, revenue double decision cycles and so on and so on. Then I think it could be that it costs you 15 to 20%. The manager leader has to do the thing by his own, of her own because okay, no one is working so I have to do more. So it could be that there is more workload for the manager. Uh, sometimes maybe uh, the fluctuation is higher that the people say okay, no one trusts me so I, I will leave the company because maybe somewhere else they estimate and they, they, yeah, they are positive uh, about my, my competencies. And uh, this is a big what, what I see 15, uh, 20% maybe as a, as a figure.

Speaker B: Thank you very much. But perhaps let's now go into the real example in the second half of this discussion into. And learn learn from real example. Can you share a real example of a leader who rebuilt trust and improve team performance?

Speaker C: Yeah. So uh, I worked once also for the Build Trust is someone who said, you know, I believe in the team, I believe in you. And uh, gave us real freedom. Uh, we didn't have any. Of course we had one to ones, we had meetings. But uh, they really trusted us and they, they gave us a uh, project and said hey, go for this project open uh, this new market and, and we, we could work together as a team and of course we gave some, some reports back where we are. But this is really uh, the company gave us this freedom to work independently more or less to really work on this and to create new partnerships. Uh, and this is something, uh, we as a team, we really were happy about this, that we felt this distrust.

Speaker B: And it means you achieved end result quickly.

Speaker C: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, we achieved this. We could sign a partner agreement and then we could develop a new solution for the company. This is uh, something which was great

Speaker B: and I think we see that. And perhaps also in the audience, not every boss, every leader, every manager is good. Perhaps Rinni could. Could you please share a case where a reader relied too much on authority, uh, command and control. What went wrong and what was the lesson learned? Perhaps you were also able to help him then.

Speaker C: Yeah. So one thing, maybe it's a major foot for the last question and this one. So when I entered a company as a commercial director, uh, there was one team member who was already fired but was still uh, in the company. And the reason why, um, they fired him because of performance. And uh, then I had my, my one on one kickoff together. Said okay, you were here several years and now, uh, got fired. I was not successful. Then within uh, this discussion, uh, they realized that he was on the, on the. On the wrong position. So previous jobs he sold huge solutions multi million. He, he used to work for, for big companies and then he had to sell in a different region small products and solutions. And then uh, I said okay, but uh, this is not your main, your potential. You couldn't. Yeah, I know, but this was uh, my job. And then said okay, would you come back when I rehire you again? I said yeah, fine, okay, I will discuss with the CEO and the cfo. Uh, and then they said no. Why? Because he was not performing at all. And yeah, but he was in the wrong position. Give me please a year and we will show you that it will work. And after several discussions they accepted. Uh, and uh, I could re uh engage this guy. And the next three years we had the most successful years for the company in the history because he could sell these big solutions. And uh, okay, I trusted him. My, My leader, my manager trusted me as well after several discussions. Uh, but I think this was uh, something I really could control. And the other guy, he was happy of course, uh, that. That he had still a job. And uh, he was successful and complete in the end as well. But that work. I said trust is the start. And then the figures normally will come not by itself but uh, it's easier than to achieve this. This is a uh, real example. I think we could help both sides to build the trust and be successful.

Speaker B: Thank you for sharing these stories. I would have 100 additional questions. But taking care of your time and the audience time, we are coming to the end of this game and I still have a few penalties for your quick fire round. Who is your role model in business?

Speaker C: Well, uh, there are of course different uh, person. So I have one former leader, um, who showed me I was. It was one of my first uh leaders. And he really gave me the trust, the freedom. I was young and he gave me a huge project to run of course with some externals and him as well as sparring. But uh, this was a uh, huge project for me at the time. Um, and then that of course a lot of people around uh, the globe. But will uh, be dar. I don't know if you know him. He was uh, the guy who had with Donnie hoom together the 11 medicine in New York. And this is something I believe in to surprise the team or the customer with something you never accept expected. And uh, of course in a restaurant you think oh this is great. It's a something you. But you can translate this into the business as well. So. And I tried this with. I tried this with the team. Uh, I could lead in the past as well with uh, the customers that I give something they don't expect. Uh, one former leader and uh, will be the. As uh, something which is special. And I think when you can surprise. So when you can surprise, let's say your wife with the flowers or something else, your kids with something, then it doesn't have to be expensive. But it's more the.

Speaker B: The effect that yes, the right thing at the right point in time. Exactly what was your toughest challenge you beat in business?

Speaker C: Uh, what was the toughest challenge. I think it was the two. One was uh, that I was close to close the business. A huge uh, project. And then all of a sudden it was in a, in a data center environment. And all of a sudden uh, another colleague or another customers wanted exactly this space as well. And uh, I had to convince the customer that to, to hurry up because I couldn't reserve this uh, this data center space. And he said hey listen, we uh, I'm your attorney, I want that you can use this space, but you have to really speed up your decision process otherwise we will both lose the case. And um, by coincidence the CEO of this company, uh, my company was uh, present as well at a conference. And I said hey, we have a uh, prompt. Yeah, that's your problem. I want to have the other customer in. But uh, you have to, you have to do your job. And then first comes first service. And then uh, this was a real challenge. So the CEO wanted to have another one because it was a bigger one. And I, I fought for my customer and in the end uh, we could decide, yeah, increase the decision process and uh, we could close this deal. And I was happy for, for me as well, for the company and the CEO. Congratulations. Me offroad said good job. Uh, this is a uh, one another win. And uh, that's great. So it was, this was one uh, uh, of a quite challenging project, uh idea.

Speaker B: Ah, thank you. What's your winning habit?

Speaker C: My winning habit is listening, uh, to customers, to team members, to, to leaders, uh, to try to understand what is between the lines as well. Uh and then to act and to respect, to have the respect for everyone uh in the company on customer side, partners and uh, to be open and transparency, uh, that uh, when I say something then I strongly believe and I act uh accordingly or when there is something I can't, I cannot do, then uh, I say no, this is something we can't. But we maybe we will find a solution. So, honesty, communication, listening. I think these are the pillars of uh, building trust.

Speaker B: And what can listeners start doing tomorrow to build more trust?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think ask your team, ask your environment, uh just to be open, uh, to believe to the others that you uh, alone can't change the world, but together you are stronger. And uh, uh I think there are a lot of intelligent people around and everyone has, has a potential as I said at the beginning. And when you listen and you ask the questions and you don't feel the answer, then uh, then I think you, you really can start and build trust and be successful as an individual but as a team as well.

Speaker B: Thank you, Rene. Now we are going, we are coming to the last question. Is Rene's golden nugget. It's something that we discussed or something new to leave to the audience with.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think trust is not a soft metric, is the hardest and uh, hardest things to get. Um, but in my point of view maybe as all the listeners and you sort of, I really build on trust and uh, then you can change a lot, you can achieve a lot when, when uh, when you really uh, trust others and then they, they will trust you as well and then you can reach and achieve a lot of, of goals when, when you trust the, the people. This is something I really believe in it and therefore it's uh, it's one of my claims as well of course is shape the future together and uh, building on trust then the follow that the figures will follow.

Speaker B: Rene, thank you very much for your time. To the audience, for Greg, to the audience, thank you very much for today.

Speaker A: It's everything.

Speaker B: Rene, please stay with me. See you next week. Thank you. Bye bye.

Speaker C: Yeah, bye bye.

Speaker A: That's all for today. If you enjoyed this episode, please spread the word. It really helps. And remember, 80% of regular listeners haven't subscribed yet. If you enjoy the show, the easiest way to support us is by hitting that subscribe button. I promise we will keep raising the bar with the guests ideas and strategies that matter most to you. Until next time, never forget, we are not in B2B or B2C. We are in edge to edge, human to human environment. Thank you.