Unlocking Innovation Via Smart Staffing with Sara Fortier

Speaker A: This podcast is powered by shockingly different leadership. The go to firm companies trust when needing to uplevel their leadership development, improve their HR operations, realign their workforce infrastructures and increase their capacity to handle business critical people initiatives. Check out our world class experts@soundingly different.com and see why SDL should be your number one ally to help your HR learning and talent functions become future ready today.

Speaker B: If it's a vendor, you know that to really look for folks that you one get along with, um, but also that are there to be your strategic partner and can give you advice on how to build your team or things that might be coming up and challenges that you might be facing and have some of that subject matter expertise can be really helpful.

Speaker A: Blended workforces are one of the hottest talent strategies today where employers are using a mix of traditional employees with extra external resources like independent contractors, coaches, consultants, vendors and technology solutions all in order to enhance competitiveness, ensure cost flexibility and expedite business goals. But how are the successful companies infusing blended workforces into their business strategy? And what are the critical success factors and pitfalls to avoid during implementation? And on the flip side, what does it really take for suppliers to improve their chances of finding and landing contract opportunities? The devil is in the details, my friends. I'm your host, Karen Farrell Rhodes and it's time to get smarter about blended workforces at work. Hello my superstars, this is Karen and welcome to another episode of the Blended Workforces at Work podcast. I am just absolutely thrilled to have on today's show, uh, Sarah Fortier, uh, and she is the CEO and founder of Outwitly Now. Outwitly Inc. Is an eight figure UX and service design staffing agency that finds coaches. Uh, I'm sorry, that finds and coaches change making design practitioners and empowers private and public organizations to innovate at scale through blended workforce solutions. Now that was a mouthful. I messed it up a little bit. But uh, we're gonna have a great conversation with Sarah because I was truly fascinated with um, out Whitley and her leadership of the company and how they actually um, help clients really enhance uh, their talent. And I'm gonna let her tell that story because I know I will murder it. Although I had a, a great time reading about it. But welcome to the um podcast, Sarah.

Speaker B: Thank you, thank you so much for having me.

Speaker A: Oh, we're just um, thrilled to have you and you know, I can't wait to delve into our conversation. Um, but before we do so, we always love to learn just a tad more about our guests. So for just as much as you feel comfortable, can you give us a sneak peek into your life outside of work?

Speaker B: Sure, yes. Well we were just talking about it before but I am um, a mom so that's a big piece of my life. And I have a 5 year old son and a, I guess she's about 16 month old daughter now so they keep me really busy. And then uh, so I live in Winnipeg, Canada with my husband and um, and then we also just recently bought a, or bought I guess from the Humane Society. So we did purchase her a cat.

Speaker A: For a baby.

Speaker B: Yeah, for a baby. She's a Siamese and she's like racing around because she's one and she's got lots of energy so it's a lot of chaos but lots of fun.

Speaker A: Oh, I could imagine. Oh and um, congratulations on the new addition to the family, the fur baby. And then also on your young family as well. I'm sure they keep you all running.

Speaker B: Um, yes, exactly.

Speaker A: Uh, well thanks so much for sharing that. Um, and I'm going to kind of turn the tables a bit um, more on the professional um, level. And let's start out um, if you don't mind by you know, if you can share just a few highlights, uh, milestones of your professional ah, career and then um, can you share with us what led you to found um, out Whitley?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Um, yes. So I am originally um, from Ottawa, Canada and I studied industrial design which is the design of 3D products. Think about your Dyson at home. That's designed by industrial designers. Um, and uh, I did a master's in design and learned about how the design process could be applied to businesses, to 3D digital or sorry digital products and services. And um, that's kind of where I fell in love with UX design. Um, and so from there I actually moved out to Silicon Valley and worked with a lot of big tech companies out there doing actual UX design work. So nothing related to talent or hr, staffing, anything like that. Um, and then I moved back to Canada and uh, founded out Whitley in 2016. Originally uh, just as a consulting firm. So I was, you know, it was just me and uh, under the guise of we and I would you know, say yes, sure, we can do that of course. And it was just me doing all the work behind the scenes. Um, but yeah, so that was like helping our clients um, actually design products. So mobile apps, desktop applications or sometimes it would be like a service, you know, like how to reinvent um, the process for getting your Driver's license, for example, M. And so we did consulting kind of up until uh, well, we still do it in a way, sort of for, for our favorite clients. Um, but it's not something we talk about as often. So that we made a pivot in the last few years to really be focused on staffing because I started getting asked by clients, hey, could you come work for us full time for six months? And I was like, oh no, like I have so many other clients but I've got a friend. And uh, and so I just used my network in the beginning. I just used people that I had been connected with, that I liked working with at other jobs and who were available to take on contract work and kind of grew the staffing side almost by accident. Um, that's a great thing. Yeah. Where now it's actually the main part of our business and really how we try to position ourselves as talent partners.

Speaker A: Oh, I love that. And I know I didn't do outwardly justice, so if you could please, um, just click down one level and share with our listeners. Exactly, um, what is the company and how you best service your clients?

Speaker B: Yeah, so we are, we sort of frame ourselves as um, talent partners for building high impact teams, high impact products and services. And what that means is essentially we you know, go meet our clients and we help them assess and understand um, what types of designers or researchers they might need on their team. And we go out and we find the best people that you know, um, with a lot of vetting and um, thought leadership brings a lot of people to us. And uh, again and then we place mostly contractors right now on you know, long term contracts with our clients. And our clients tend to be, you know, uh, anywhere from large public sector organizations to large enterprise level, um, Fortune 500 clients in insurance or finance, um, e commerce, all different types of industries, but essentially placing UX designers and service designers in those companies.

Speaker A: And I'm assuming you know, just because um, you're very knowledgeable about blended workforces, um, UX designers through like an agency like yours allow companies to um, scale quickly when they need to and scale back I guess as well without having to absorb m all the cost of, you know, full time talent.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, right, yeah. And I mean if, if you followed along with the tech industry, I'm sure you're very familiar with all the layoffs and, and things that have occurred over the last few years. Right. So like the big tech companies have just laid off like swaths and swaths of people. Um, and that really impacts the UX community because essentially we're designing digital products. And so it is interesting to see how with a uh, staffing or talent based business that actually you can do quite well in those times because clients are feeling a little afraid and they're not maybe getting the budget to add to the permanent headcount but the work still comes. They still need to you know produce the products that their customers are waiting to use. Uh and so they kind of turn to uh, these contractor. Contractor agreements and um, and staffing or staff augmentation. And so um, that's ye. That's where I found like for, for our clients especially with the uncertainty with AI and all the geopolitical stuff happening and where they're a bit afraid or they don't have the budget to grow permanently, they can still grow their teams and sometimes half their teams are made up of contractors.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah it is. And especially in the digital and tech spaces um those industry are job functions were some of the first to kind of embrace um, external talent. Yeah on the team. And a lot of the um, other job functions are catching up now or have caught up. Um but um it, the reason I'm mentioning that is that it, it's not a foreign concept um to the. You're probably talking to that you don't have to sell them on it. You just have to make sure that they understand your terms and find the right talent. Right.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah exactly. So we're always sort of um. I mean oftentimes they'll come to us more because they, they if they're a bigger company they don't want the headache of dealing with individual contracts you know for individual contractors and they might have a need of you know I need 5 UX designers to join our team. Um and they would prefer to work with sort of this in between vendor um, which uh. So yeah usually not selling them on the fact that hey this can be really helpful. They, they're already there and, and uh, which is a good place to be. And then you have sometimes on the flip side of that though there can be a bit of a headache with the contractors viewing you as a middle in between middleman and maybe not having the respect for Actually there's a lot of work to be that uh, in between of the vendor to the client and to the contractor and so really had to prove our value on that side of it actually to the, to the contractors to say no actually we're here as like a support to you and to help you through your journey here. And yes of course we take a Margin, because we're a business. Um, but, uh, you know, we can help them with a lot of the ups and downs that they might face or help them not feel so isolated in their roles, um, even help them, you know, grow in their careers.

Speaker A: That's amazing. Now I'm curious, um, how you coach, um, or how you handle either personally or coach your team to balance between client needs and um, the utilization of your, um, contractors. Because I know that's a big issue a lot of times, um, making sure that you can balance them both. And usually there's one need that you have that's overpowering another and it may, you know, switch off at different times. But how do you think through that and manage that?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's a really good question. And something that's obviously probably one of the biggest challenges. Right. Um, because you know, you are a business to start and so the business has to be profitable. Um, and so you have to think, well, how do you be profitable? And utilization is One of those KPIs that you look at. Um, and, but at the same time you don't want to appear or you don't want to even be heartless and say, we'll just get your hours in.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, so I mean I always think that the client needs do come first because they are the driver for the business. Um, and I think that contractors and you know, I think everyone understands that even they feel that if the client asks them to do something that that client's needs comes first as well. So I feel like there's just a general understanding of, you know, that is just the truth. Um, uh, and then, but on the, the, the piece where sometimes you can, you could have, you know, just even a toxic work environment on the client side or, or they're even just struggling with. Well, you know, I'm, I don't have that much work to do. So you know, I kind of just thought maybe I would, you know, take days off here. I might not put in a full eight hour day, uh, because it's not really demanded of them, even though it is in the contract. Right. Um, yeah, yeah. And so. Or yeah, so. So there's sort of two different scenarios. One is they're not happy for some reason and that could be a toxic work environment. It could be the work doesn't inspire them or it could be just burnout central. And so they, they uh, maybe don't want to continue working or they want to reduce their hours or something. And then the other scenario is they're actually not that busy and so, um, so on the not busy side, we always try to encourage our, our contractors to be really proactive, and we actually try to vet for proactive people because I think if you come from a. Yeah, because if you come from an employee background, you could be very used to sort of sitting on your laurels if no manager assigns you work. So maybe like a really rude thing to say, but. But I think there's less of a drive to really prove yourself. Um, and if you're getting your work done, then that's sort of enough. Um, and that's not true of everyone because obviously there's very ambitious employees who want to climb the ladder and everything. But if you're a contractor, you actually do have to be proactive. You have to go out and look for, you know, opportunities to improve something. You need to go out and try to have coffee chats to get to know other stakeholders. And so we, we look for. And we also really encourage that type of behavior in our contractors so that they are fully utilized. Um, and they are finding work and finding a place to be valuable, and they're not just sitting there because no one has handed them something to do. Um, so that, that piece, and then on the piece where it's like they're not happy, then I think it really starts with empathy and, you know, understanding what's going on. You know, tell me a little bit more about that so that you can get to the crux of it. And sometimes from that place, then you. We're just really honest with our contractors and we're saying, you know, from our perspective, like, we do need to try to get the hours up, but completely understand where you're coming from. Let's try to give you, like, actionable, tangible tips that you could maybe help you in what you're doing to make the environment better. And that could be things about understanding the different layers of the organization and, you know, how to navigate tricky stakeholders and things like that. Or it could be, um, let's go to the client and say, hey, we're hearing these patterns and these trends. You know, what have you heard? Is this something that we could help. Help you, you know, through some sort of coaching or more of a strategic, um, role that we could play to help soften these things, even through fractional leadership, which we also offer. So, so there's different strategies, I guess, um, based on why they might not be utilizing their time.

Speaker A: No, and I totally, um, understand that. Um, and I. It's. It's tough, I mean, because we're in a similar uh, situation. But we're on the human capital side, you know, HR related type of um, experts. And you're right, it's, you have to balance, you know, the needs of the client with the needs of your personnel, um, as well. But you're right, you default to the client because you have to maintain the business. Uh, but you do all that you can to make sure that you are external staff is as skilled, as knowledgeable and as um, happy as possible.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, within the bounds that you can. So um, I definitely. Yeah.

Speaker B: And I think, yeah, and I was just gonna say like, I think expectation setting at the uh, outset with those contractors before they go into the environment is really helpful. So like letting them know this type of client is like this, you know, that you might run into these culture challenges or you know, and so that they're really set up for success and they, they actively say yes, I want to go and be in that environment. I understand what some of the challenges will be. Um, I think can be really helpful and, and yeah, I think just being a kind person, you know, I think we really value that as, as one of our, even one of our company values is to be kind and to be sincere and, and have empathy for, for everyone. Um, because when you start from that place then people feel uh, respected, they feel heard, they want to work with you to make it better. And then we give them the tools, you know, like, so we'll coach them on how can you navigate challenger challenging stakeholders or how can you deal with it in our case difficult product owners. So yeah, try to help them.

Speaker A: And I'm curious as well, do you, do you all happen to do anything or do you try to do anything or level set with your clients as well? Because I know there's some clients, uh, that their onboarding and culture is um, amazing for um, contractors, freelancers coming in and there are some that I'll just say politely, they lack that infrastructure in doing so. And it's challenging as, as your team is trying to be successful when a lot of things aren't in place, um, like access to things or true collaboration. I'm curious, um, do you try to coach or uh, how do you try to ensure that clients are ready to really onboard your talent?

Speaker B: Yeah, so that is very interesting and something I didn't realize at the beginning how important that is. Over time I realized, okay, if they have great onboarding then we're going to be good. And if they don't have great onboarding, I have to literally tell them you might struggle for three Months while you try to learn the organization and what you're supposed to do there. Um, yeah. And so in terms of our, our ability to have input on that, it really depends on the client. Some clients are really open and they have the ability to create their own onboarding. You know, they're not there, there might not be a ton of bureaucracy saying you have to do it this way or um, and also it depends on our sort of relationship with the client where for example, in public sector there's very little you can do to help them, um, or input you can give them because there is sort of this hard line drawn between the vendor and the government people. Whereas in private sector there's a lot more flexibility of how you might help. And so in the scenario where you can have some input, we sort of do ask our clients as part of an onboarding meeting we have with them what are your onboarding processes? Uh, and, and then we learn a little bit more about what they plan to do and so then we can set some expectations with the contractor and we can also have input in that meeting like, oh, have you thought about, you know, a 30, 60, 90 day plan for them or um, you know, will all their tech be set up or whatever the things are. But I find that that meeting can be really valuable just to levels I don't want some good tips are we've even, you know, we've sent resources over and, and they'll use them or create their own or whatever. So that can be good. And then where you don't have input, um, we try to create as much wrapper for our contractors as we can. So we have our own onboarding and you know, we'll, based on our knowledge of the client and its inner workings. And if we've worked with them for years, we've sort of developed an understanding of what they need to know. We've gathered documents to show who the organ, the sort of the departments are and the people that they'll need to get to know. So we try our best to sort of soften that onboarding for them as much as we can on our side to help them.

Speaker A: Absolutely. You know, we do the same. Um, and we have a consulting excellence program that we do for our, um, talent as well. And one piece of that is that those who are assigned to the same client, we try to do um, 15 minute check inside, um, maybe once every week or every two weeks just so that they can share with each other things that they've learned about the company, the culture, the do's, the Don'ts give advice to each other. Um, so we've tried to empower, empower our people who have been assigned and contracted to the client to also share back because the more they share back that helps everybody be successful and hopefully extend engagement and things like that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: As well.

Speaker B: That's great. Yeah, that's a great tip and idea. We do something similar with coaching where we have, for certain clients where we have, you know, many individuals placed there, we'll have a coach assigned, uh, and they might meet them bi weekly, weekly, sometimes monthly, kind of depends. Um, and, and they have a bit of an onboarding with that coach to go through some of the, you know, what they've learned. And then in the group coaching calls they can share this, this knowledge that you're talking about. And, and I feel like that is very helpful.

Speaker A: It is, it definitely is. Um, since you've kind of been on, I guess the blended workforces, I call it the three legged stool, you know, full time employee, external talent and technology, you've dipped your toe in a couple of those on the areas on the three legged stool. And I'm curious if you have any personal advice or recommendations or things to think about for, um, companies who are for the first time considering bringing external talent into their organizations to um, help with their agility to be able to get work done. You know, what are maybe one or two things that come to mind that you would love to give them advice on as they really consider blended workforce is in adding great companies like yours to the team.

Speaker B: Yeah, um, well, I think in terms of like when you're talking about the resources and the talent that they will end up bringing in if it's through a vendor, you know, like us, um, or even individuals, uh, would be to think about, you know, does this person have a consultant's mindset? And, and what does that mean? Right. So I, you know, I was talking about that earlier where there's folks that come from really being an employee background and that's fine. And oftentimes they do end up being successful because they have aspects, uh, of that mindset. Um, but what I found is people who are proactive, people who are, you know, the self starters, people who are great communicators, um, you know, and they're also very deeply skilled and masterful at their craft of the thing that they're doing.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: But they have this ability to sort of influence people and um, they have presence when they're on a call. Like those are the skills that I feel are always just very successful when you bring in a third because they have to ramp up super quick into an environment that they don't know or understand. They have to. To get to know all new people. And they may only be there for six months or a year. And so their ability to actually start executing, uh, with the full context of the organization in a way that's efficient and good for the company, I feel, is very tied to those sort of soft skills. So I would say that's the type of talent ideal that you would be bringing in. Um, you know, and then other tips, I, uh, would say, if it's a vendor, you know, that to really look for, for folks that you want to get along with, um, but also that are there to be your strategic partner and can give you advice on how to build your team or things that might be coming up and challenges that you might be facing and have some of that subject matter expertise can be really helpful.

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Um, and I know you all do a lot to, um, help your, um, talent from not feeling so isolated and lonely. And I'd love for you to speak to that just a little bit about, um, what you can do or what you all try to do to keep them, you know, really motivated and feeling connected.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that stemmed from. Because I used to be an independent contractor, and I was like, I'm all by myself here. Uh, you know, you don't have professional development opportunities and training, and, you know, they don't invite you to a lot of the stuff because you're sort of, like, apart. And I, like, honestly, I liked being that way. But there are some aspects of it where you kind of wish you had a bit of a community or someone to talk to about that particular client or the challenges. So knowing that, and then as I started hiring folks and they just asked for a call with me, hey, can I. I'm having a challenge. Could I chat with you? Uh, and I realized what they were coming to me for was really, like, I was almost their therapist related to this very specific client. I was like, okay, so you kind of need a coach here or someone to help you along. Um, and so, so because. And because we have that subject, we're like, we're designers finding designers. We can really relate to their actual problems that they have, um, and talk to them about it and give them real tips on, like, you know, things they could do to make it better. And so, uh, we. We do two main things, I guess. One is that we do have a slack community for each of our client, um, uh, teams, I guess. Anyone who's placed at that client. And we also provide uh, a coach, uh, to have those calls with them that I mentioned. And I think that helps just let them know that they're not alone, that they have someone they can go to. Yeah, half of the people don't utilize it like even, it might even be more than half of the people because they've gotten to a point where they feel really comfortable. You know, they're senior and they don't need that. But they often will use it in the beginning, the first like three to six months if it's like a multi year placement, um, just to know who else is there and hear, you know, share some of that knowledge and, and things like that. So, um, so even though it's a, uh, I would say underutilized, it's there. And for the people that need it who are more intermediate in their career or at the early stages of the contract, it's really, really helpful. And then they, they might poke in occasionally and say, oh, you know what, I want to come back to this coaching session because I've got a big presentation coming up and I'd love your thoughts on it. Um, and they always know that it's there.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's that. You know, I love. What I love about that is that kind of on demand access for peer support is invaluable because you're right, there's some times where they may not need it or have too much they're doing and yeah. Don't want to interfere with their productivity. But you want to be there for support when they need it. I love that. Yes. Yeah, definitely. Well, Sarah, gosh, I can't uh, believe we're almost out of time. Um, I looked up and, and we were having such a great conversation. But we can't uh, let you sneak out of here without asking you our signature question. We ask all of our guests and for my new listeners out there, um, our firm did research on high performing leaders, uh, and companies. And out of that research, um, came seven buckets of, um, success factors. We call them tactics, but they're um, seven main, um, buckets of success factors that are executed anytime someone's leading at the top of their game. And so uh, we always ask our guests which of the seven which are all equally as important and use them at different times, which is the seven really resonated with them. And Sarah was so kind to share that having stakeholder savvy, uh, really popped for her. And stakeholder savvy is um, all about, um, it's Kind of the sister to um, emotional intelligence. But it's really all about um, having a high degree of interpersonal dynamics and knowing how to operate um, effectively in different situations that you come across, getting to know people. Um, you know, for instance, you might perform differently when you're interviewing versus when you're at a happy hour kind of thing. So, um, curious minds would Love to know, Ms. Sarah, why did stakeholder savvy really pop for you?

Speaker B: Yeah, and actually there were several that, that really stood out. But I, I chose that one because I think it's probably been a through line for my, through my career as um, even you know, when I was working for other companies and, and true to today, which is that if you can understand people and you can navigate the politics and you can empathize with them and you know, you really understand where that stakeholder might be coming from, why they might be acting that way, it can, it can help you.

Speaker A: Sorry.

Speaker B: I guess the idea is when sometimes there are people who are challenging, uh, believe it or not, and uh, it has nothing to do with you actually. Um, and if you can understand, you know, why they might be feeling that way, why they might be reacting that way, and then you can hear them out and you can let them air all of their fears, things that are coming up for them and you say, I hear you. Okay, so what I'm hearing is X, Y and Z. And what I want you to know is not to worry about that piece because you know, we'll take care of this. This part just sort of quell a lot of their fears because most of that comes from fear. Um, and so I've just been very good at that, that part, that emotional intelligence part and being able to connect with people and understand them. And it also makes sense as a designer because design is meant to be human centered and really that's right, the needs of people. So yeah, that one made a lot of sense to me.

Speaker A: Oh, that's awesome. Well, thank you so much for sharing and sharing your perspectives there. Um, and as you know we'll have um, your detailed bio and links and everything in the show notes. But I always love to give um, our guests time to airtime, uh, to also share where folks can find more about um, you and your company. So um, if they were interested in understanding more about Sarah and um, outwitly, where can they find you?

Speaker B: Yeah, so, um, outwittly.com will be the best place to find out about the company. So that's O U T W I t l y.com and then, uh, we're pretty active on Instagram and LinkedIn and as well. And then for me personally, I'm Most active on LinkedIn. So, um, just LinkedIn.com I think, slash Sarah Fortier, and you'll find me there.

Speaker A: Awesome. Uh, and for you all, Forte spell F O R T I E R. That's correct. Right, Sarah.

Speaker B: Sarah with no H. No H. There you go.

Speaker A: That's the second catch.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: All right, well, thank you so much, Sarah, for the gift of your time today. This was, um, a fantastic conversation and episode.

Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker A: Yes, and thank you too, listeners for the gift of your time as well. Because as I always say, we know there are literally other millions of podcasts out there for you to listen to and we do not take your patronage lightly at all. All that we ask is that you like and subscribe to our podcast on your favorite platform of choice and share the podcast with just one friend. Because by doing so, we'll all get smarter about blended work versus at work. Thanks a ton and see you next week. Well, that's our show for today. Thank you again for listening to the Blended Workforces at Work podcast. You can check out the show notes, additional episodes, bonus resources and also submit guest recommendations on our website at. Ah. Blendedworkforcesatwork.com youm can also follow me on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram or YouTube by searching for the name Karen Rhodes with Karen being spelled K A R a N. And if you like the show, the greatest gift you can give would be to subscribe and leave a rating on your favorite podcast platform of choice. This podcast has been a production of shockingly different leadership, A global consultancy which helps organizations execute their people talent development and organizational effectiveness initiatives on an on demand contract, fractional or project based. Huge thanks to the SDL production and editing team for a job well done. Bye for now.