Episode 42 | Reducing Legal Risk Without More Rules with Rich Lee

Speaker A: This podcast is powered by shockingly different leadership. The go to firm companies trust when needing to up level their leadership development, improve their HR operations, realign their workforce infrastructures and increase their capacity to handle business critical people initiatives. Check out our world class experts@soundingly different.com and see why SDL should be your number one ally to help your HR learning and talent functions become future ready. Today

Speaker B: for us, the biggest thing and the thing that we were solving, what we were so frustrated by as general counsel was well, why do legal disputes, why do all legal disputes have to cost so much and take so much time and be such a distraction right when the reality is if you actually look at the spectrum of legal disputes, there's only a tiny percentage that really need to go to like the court system and legacy arbitration platforms.

Speaker A: Blended workforces are one of the hottest talent strategies today, where employers are using a mix of traditional employees with external resources like independent contractors, coaches, consultants, vendors and technology solutions, all in order to enhance competitiveness, ensure cost flexibility and expedite business goals. But how are the successful companies infusing blended workforces into their business strategy? And what are the critical success factors and pitfalls to avoid during implementation? And on the flip side, what does it really take for suppliers to improve their chances of finding and landing contract opportunities? The devil is in the details, my friends. I'm your host, Karen Farrell Rhodes and it's time to get smarter about blended workforces at Work. Hello my superstars, this is Karen and welcome to another episode of the Blended Workforces at Work podcast. We have a tremendous guest on today's show and I just can't wait to delve deep and uh, get his perspectives. But on today's show we do have Rich Lee, who is the co founder and CEO of New Era adr. New Era ADR is a VC backed technology company that is bringing more predictability to the legal dispute process with up to 90% of reductions in time and cost. Now, New Era ADR is a wonderful example of how organizations are using technology to positively impact the way they work. And I can't wait to talk to Rich about their impact on the legal profession. So welcome to the show, Rich.

Speaker B: Thanks for having me, Karen. It's nice to be here.

Speaker A: It is so wonderful having you. We've had a couple with the legal professionals on the show, but they were not with technology backed companies. Um, they were just sharing from legal risk perspectives certain aspects of blended workforce. So, uh, I'm super excited to have a conversation with you on the show. But before we delve into it. Uh, we always love to learn just a little bit more about our guests. So for just as much as you feel comfortable, can you give us a sneak peek into your life outside of work?

Speaker B: Outside of work. Reading laws and statutes and. I'm kidding.

Speaker A: Uh, I was about to say, really gotta get you out more. Yeah.

Speaker B: Like this. This ends now. Yeah, no, a lot of family time. I have two young kids, spend as much time as I can with them. You know, they're growing up way too fast. You know, they're also in a whole bunch of activities and so there's also just required time driving them around to different sports, different activities. And now we have summer coming, so that's going to be filled with a bunch of camps. But then for me professionally, I also just, I love working with early stage companies, founders, startups. So like, while I'm not working on my own, start still helping a lot of different founders, you know, at various stages. Right. Operate their companies and just be a sounding board. I also invest in a lot of these early stage companies, you know, and then try to fit in tennis as much as I can. I played baseball and tennis growing up. It's a lot harder to get a pickup baseball game with 18 other people. So tennis is, you know, always one of my go tos. And then lots of music and lots of movies.

Speaker A: All right, so we have a lot in common. Rich. Um, definitely a movie fanatic. I grew up, believe it or not, a sports fanatic. I was like, that cool girl, loves sports and still do. Uh, so that is fantastic. And family's the best as well. So it sounds like, uh, you definitely have your priorities in order. And my husband and I are recently new empty nesters. So I will say there is a light at the end of the tunnel, but time goes so quickly. So enjoy the little ones while you got them.

Speaker B: That's right. Actually, I should have added travel, you know, which is now kind of making its way back onto the map, you know, as the kids are now, you know, a little bit older. Can travel well, took our first international trip for them last year. Gonna go on another one this year. But yes, travel is something that's, you know, a big part of like my wife's and my hobbies.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, so I'm with you and I'm, I'm really excited for you and your husband. Hopefully now you can go on some fun trips.

Speaker A: Well, we do travel quite a bit because, you know, we do a lot of consulting as well around the world. I think we're up to 30 32, 33 countries and definitely m looking for more. So, um, our daughter has always had quite a few stamps in her passport because we've always brought her along on business. But I think I really commend you all because that's the way to open up the world to your kids while you're, you know, there and giving them guidance so that they're good when they're on their own. So I love that for you all.

Speaker B: I agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: So thank you so much for sharing that piece of personal information with us, but I'd love to start delving into kind of where you are today. So can we first start with maybe you giving us a few highlights or milestones of your career and what brought you to co founding a new era adr?

Speaker B: Yeah, if you kind of look back at my career, I think one through line, because it's been an unconventional legal career, like for a lawyer, a through line is definitely building. And uh, I think I realized really early on that that's something that I've always enjoyed is building, you know, preferably something out of nothing or very small into something bigger. Engineer by background, was a lawyer in a law firm for one year, quickly realized, you know, this is not what I want to be doing. You know, joining an IP investment bank, brokering a lot of technology transactions, building out an entire practice or actually two different practices for two different organizations as part of that. Right. Also leading market development in Asia, primarily in Taiwan and Hong Kong. And so literally dropping into these markets. They had no idea who I was, who the company was, and starting from there, you know, did that and then, you know, wanted to be closer to the technology. Right. And so for me personally, I've always been, you know, a first adopter of anything new in tech. Anything from like the newest phones way back when to, you know, nowadays with AI always experimenting with new things. And so for me wanted to be closer to the technology and not just kind of brokering a lot of these tech technology transactions. So joined two different early stage companies, both were venture backed as well. That spanned about 11 years. One was a 13 person company, we grew that and then sold that three and a half years later. Another was a 30 person company when I joined, you know, grew, that's over 200 plus employees, you know, raised a lot of venture, grew the client base and the company and they're still doing really well.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: But then that's also where it was at. That second company, which was a data science and AI company where I met my co founders who are Also general counsel at other venture backed technology companies. You know, as well as uh, one of my, my fourth co founder was actually part of my current company and leading compliance. And so for us it was really, I think especially talking about blinded workforces and workforces in general. This will resonate because for us the biggest thing and the thing that we were solving, what we were so frustrated by as general counsel was well, why do legal disputes, why do all legal disputes have to cost so much and take so much time and be such a distraction, Right. When the reality is if you actually look at the spectrum of legal disputes, there's only a tiny percentage that really need to go to like the court system and legacy arbitration platforms where when you hear the word lawsuit, right. We just automatically assume it's going to be a two to three year slog, hundreds of thousands or millions in fees. Right. And that should only really be true for like let's say two technology companies fighting over who owns self driving car technology. Right. That should probably take years and that's fine. But uh, what about employment disputes? Disputes with like whether it's full time employees, part time employees, right. Standard just breach of contract type disputes. Right. And with a vendor or a customer or uh, like any sort of other dispute that leads to legal, potentially you know, legal issues. Well that shouldn't require, right. The same processes that are used by two giant technology companies fighting over who owns self driving car tech. Right, Right. And that's the way the system's set up. And that's why, and I'm sure, you know, many of your listeners have been in these shoes where your company gets hit with an uh, employment claim and even though after investigation you look into it and you're like, we did nothing wrong. Well, your next move is still to uh, a lot of times, right, just kind of pay the, the claimant some money just because you want to avoid the two to three year slog and all the expense. Not because you did anything wrong.

Speaker A: Correct.

Speaker B: And then certainly in reverse too, right. And part of the thesis behind New Era is let's just get the parties to the point, right? And what's fair is fair. And so for the same employee who's been wronged by an organization, hey, let's create a faster forum where they can actually stand up for themselves, right. And actually get compensation for the wrong that was actually inflicted. Right. And so that's how New Era came about. And so what we are essentially in kind of one sense is we are 100 day arbitrations. So just as legally enforceable as you know, the courts and legacy arbitration platforms, but we adjudicate these cases in 100 days, all for one flat fee, all online. So highly accessible. Right? But the same quality people hearing your cases. And so people who are knowledgeable in the subject matter, whether it's employment, whether it's, you know, cryptocurrency or financial institutions. So the same quality people hearing the cases, but getting parties to the point faster and having these cases legally adjudicated in 100 days so that the parties can kind of go back to their lives. Right? Which is what we all want.

Speaker A: Now, who is your client? Do you have to get both parties on board to agree to use your platform? Or does one, like a company hire you all and say, this is our default first round to try to dispute issues or claims, and they let people know.

Speaker B: And so you're exactly right to agree to arbitration. Both sides have to agree. Where they agree, though, is typically contractual. Right? Because by the time, like, we're not trying to go talk to people who are ready in the middle of a fight and say, hey, you know, why don't. Yeah, yeah, sides are in a fight, they're not agreeing to anything new.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Right. So typically we get written into contracts. And so a lot of times it's the companies who might write us in first, right? But then they'll communicate it to their employees or to their customers or users, whomever. Right? And say, hey, we adopted this, but we adopted a platform and a forum that's frankly, way more fair for you too. Right? Because if we did something wrong, as the company that adopted this, we also can't play games, right? We can't drag things out. We can't use our considerable resources just to bury you and make it really painful for you to actually just tell us exactly what we did wrong. And so that's actually landed really well, right, in terms of, you know, kind of the. The acceptance in the industry. But it's always. It's contractual. And so, for instance, we're getting written. We. We're getting written into tons of employment agreements, employees.

Speaker A: This would be no brainer.

Speaker B: Yeah. Employee handbooks, terms and conditions, you know, you name it. And of course, because at the end of every agreement that you've. That you've ever signed, any terms of use you've ever clicked through, there's always a clause, right, that nobody ever reads that says if we have a legal dispute, we will resolve it in, you know, the courts in Atlanta or this legacy arbitration platform. So people are crossing that out and putting in new era adr and so what that means is then any future dispute that comes up under that agreement comes to us, and both parties no longer have to deal with that, the pain and the expense, and frankly, the distraction of, like, potentially two years of just fighting.

Speaker A: So I'm just helping the listeners and the layperson better understand, once an issue comes up, up and say a company sends out the information, a link or whatever, how to get to your platform, is that when you all take over and ask both parties to submit information, or you start the process at that point and you handle it separately from the company or, um, I'm trying to understand how much involvement from both sides is there.

Speaker B: So think of us as a private digital court, right? So we are the court, we are Switzerland. We are the adjudicators, like all our arbitrators and mediators are the adjudicators. So we don't help either side. We don't represent either side.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So both sides actually kind of file an arbitration claim the same way you file a lawsuit. The other side responds. Many of our customers and our users who've adjudicated cases have lawyers just like they would have in court. But also we've deliberately built this to be highly accessible to people who are not represented by lawyers and still make it easy enough to understand that they can kind of go through this process themselves. So we've had a number of cases where people don't have lawyers. But usually what happens is the link to where you would file the case on our platform is written right into the employment agreement or the terms of use. And so the way it would work is, God forbid, something comes up and there's a disagreement. Whichever side decides that they want to initiate kind of the arbitration, they would just go to the website, create an account, file the case just like you would with a lawsuit. And then the other side would get a notice and they would respond, and then the whole process would get going. Eventually an arbitrator will get assigned, just like a judge, and then they'll run everything on our platform virtually. Right. And so that. That way also, you know, our premise from day one, and this was pre Covid when we were talking about this was like, well, why do you, you know, you don't have to do all this stuff in person. Virtual's a lot of times better, but a lot of times, most of the time just as effective and it's way more accessible. Right. Especially for a lot of individuals. Right. Because to go to court or to go appear somewhere, it takes a lot of time. Probably have to Take the day off work. If you happen to have kids around, you've got to find childcare because you're leaving the house. And so, you know, thinking through a lot of those issues now, I'm curious,

Speaker A: what entities compensate you all. Is it the companies or the parties split it? How does that work?

Speaker B: So it really depends. So if it's company to company, typically they split 50. 50. That makes sense, right? Generally, kind of accepted law around the country is that if it's company versus individual, the company has to shoulder the vast majority of it. Right? And so for us, we make sure that as a default, right, that individuals, if individuals are on their own and it's not on behalf of a company, well, uh, that individual should pay probably no more than what they would pay in court, right. To file a law, which is usually kind of a few hundred dollars. And so that's usually how the splits are divided.

Speaker A: Divided in. Okay, interesting. It's just fascinating. I honestly didn't know this type of, uh, I knew about arbitration, but I didn't know about your platform solution. That type existed until we started talking about you being on the show. So I think it's just amazing the convenience and the cost effectiveness and the excellent output that you're giving to your clients. I think that's. I'm surprised it's not a bigger pickup. It seems like people should be rushing to use it, and maybe they are, and I'm just not in that world.

Speaker B: And no, I. I appreciate it. I think a lot of it is really just, you know, getting the word out. But once people have heard about us, uh, it's a pretty quick adoption for that reason, right? Where they see, hey, like, nobody wants to spend that much time locked up in a legal dispute, right? And so we have clients ranging from giant sports organizations to large automakers to large retailers to, you know, entertainment companies to large banks, large real estate brokerages, you name it. Like, every single organ, right, has. They deal with their own set of legal disputes. And we're agnostic. Anything can come to our platform, right? And so it's really helping them understand. And the organization's figuring out, like, well, what are my, like, top 1% of, like, the highly complex who owns critical technology disputes that I'm going to keep in court, right? And then what's the everything else where, as we've historically navigated it as a company, you're like, why are we spending this much fighting over this stuff? Or why are we unnecessarily settling these cases when we actually have strong arguments and it's all of that that these organizations are sending over. And what's been really interesting is one of the a big theme around this and this is across sports, real estate, finance. Big reason that a lot of them cite is like actually that these relationships can be better preserved. Right. That fights happen. Right. They're part of life.

Speaker A: Ah, there are, yes.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's how you actually navigate the fight. I mean it's literally like us telling our kids, hey, use your wor.

Speaker A: Yeah, right.

Speaker B: Um, it's just a grown up version of that. And so do you want to have a fight? Sure. A disagreement is going to happen now, how are you going to resolve it? Do you want to spend two years just like going at each other, you know, forever and ever and ever or you know, would you rather just get it resolved quicker still with evidence, still with documents and witnesses and everything else that are part of what putting on a real cases. Right. But get that done faster. And frankly that's kind of human psychology too where once both sides have had the catharsis of being able to present their case right. It's much easier to then maintain the relationship after that dispute.

Speaker A: That's true.

Speaker B: You know, win or lose because like, you know what I put on my case, I had my day, I was able to kind of get all this off my chest. Unfortunately the arbitrator didn't agree with me or they did. But not enough time's gone by and not enough games have been played. Right.

Speaker A: For, for you to have energy out the other side.

Speaker B: That's been interesting watching companies actually recognize that whether it's with their employees or their users or with like key strategic partners like, or manufacturers with like key suppliers, they're like our suppliers will mess up, but I still need them and I don't want that relationship to sour and I want that dispute to be done fast. So it's really interesting and that's always part, been part of our ethos is like, you know what we think, like we're truly going to improve relationships right across society because nobody's ever going to prevent arguments or disagreements. But now providing that better path, right. To just some sort of resolution and putting a disagreement of bed, it's going to improve relationships kind of across the board.

Speaker A: Absolutely. I would just say I see how it can impact all business functions no matter where they are. Like you said, hr, accounting, legal, sales, you name it. But you know, one of the things, I'm also, I'm a board advisor for boards on human capital strategies. And of course when you're talking about risk mitigation from a human capital perspective, as you think through realignments, employee issues and additional organizational exposure to risk. This seems like a no brainer to implement to help reduce. The board should embrace or encourage the leaders to do or leverage to reduce the organizational risk by leveraging something easier such as this platform that also, as you said, can salvage many times relationships after the fact. So it just seems like a no brainer to me. And so I'm just like, okay, I need to be your business development person. I can like spread it around the world. This is just. Is a fantastic.

Speaker B: I love it. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Right. It really like, especially when it comes to human capital, like we're that backstop.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So yes, you're going to have policies and hopefully you're going to be creating cultures. Right. Uh, that are very kind of employee friendly and conducive to, you know, maximizing everybody's potential. But no matter how much you do the right things, disputes come up. Right. And so that's the backstop is like, great. Now when they come up, hopefully you're no longer kind of held hostage by the time and the expense of the dispute, it's like, hey, just get it knocked out, get it done. And so it kind of takes away a lot of the tension in terms of, if you think about that too, that underlying tension, like let's say as an employee starts to become a little bit of a problem, that tension is always simmering and the thought of like, oh, a potential lawsuit and how terrible and expensive it'll be right. For both sides is always kind of lurking. And when you kind of remove that element, it's like, hey, we're going to go through all these steps, but if it doesn't work, it's still not going to be painful, doesn't have to be highly acrimonious. It's just going to be pragmatic, to the point, objective, and it's going to be done right. It kind of, I think, takes away the tension in the lead up to God forbid that lawsuit. So that's always how I've looked at it, especially in the employee side. Unfortunately, a lot of companies and actually their lawyers and law firms, there's a reason why a lot of lawyers and law firms are recommending that their clients switch over to us. So that's been pretty exciting.

Speaker A: That is exciting. I'm just curious from your perspective if there was one piece of advice that you could give leaders and organizations or board members as they're bringing up this type of opportunity for the company as they assess it. Is there one piece of advice you can give them for the readiness of implementing, you know, a company such as New Era into their organization? Uh, how can they get their mind set around that and help with change management? Meaning how do you help it to be a win win, Help it be perceived as a win win to those that you're dealing with?

Speaker B: I would say kind of two parts, right? The first is, you know, as you said, implementing. I think it's very. It's like worth reminding that implementing New Era, even though we're a technology company, implementing us is literally changing that clause in your contract and you've implemented us, it's done.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: Yeah. There is no kind of API to hit. There's no integration, there's no data that needs to be transferred. Because we are the court, right? That you're simply adopting this alternative court, right? And so changing the contracts, you've implemented us. I think that's powerful because, you know, just a lot of times it's the logistics around a change that make it really hard. And so this is really easy. And frankly, the only time you need to interact with our platform is then when a dispute arises, right? And now you're adjudicating a dispute on our platform. So that's one. The implementation piece. But then you're exactly right. The communication part is just as important and I think just being cognizant and aware that, hey, arbitration, traditional arbitration, has kind of gotten a bad reputation, right? Especially in the employment space. And I think a lot of that is because, like, well, the reality of these legacy arbitration platforms is that it's not any faster or cheaper than the courts, right? And so I think, you know, even though it's never really been expressed this way, like in the media, really what it comes down to is like, well, the confidentiality piece is the, the knock, right on arbitration. But, uh, the reality is like, well, then what is the employee giving up, right? Because it's always expressed as well, you know, these are companies then trying to like, make all these employee disputes confidential, right? And the question is like, well, what's the employee actually giving up for this confidentiality? Because it's not faster, it's not more expensive or, uh, accessible. Definitely just as expensive. So, like, what did I just get right, as an employee? So there's a little bit of that, you know, on top of the fact that I think, to be fair, right, A lot of employees also don't want this stuff being public, right? You don't want to Be the person whose name's on, uh, all these lawsuits suing previous employers. And so there, there's also that element. Yeah, right.

Speaker A: And so reputation, uh, exactly.

Speaker B: Right. And people find these in searches.

Speaker A: They sure do.

Speaker B: No matter how much you want to say that it's. It's a fair thing. And, hey, they were suing because of a legitimate grievance, Right. What the next person sees when they do research is like, ooh, you know, you can watch.

Speaker A: You.

Speaker B: You know, you have someone who just sued their previous employer, and that's just not a great stigma to kind of attach to any job candidate. So the change management piece for us, and actually something that a lot of our customers have used, is a pretty straightforward explanation that, like, hey, we've adopted this new arbitration platform. But before you start judging this arbitration platform, because you heard the word arbitration, know that this is arguably better. And we've arguably made it easier for you to sue us because it is very accessible, it's online. Or you can. A lot of them put it, like, to hold us accountable as a company.

Speaker A: I was about to say they don't want to say sue us, but, yeah, hold us accountable is a good one.

Speaker B: But that's the reality is we are virtual. It's easy to access, and it's kind of to the point and done fast. Right? And so the way that plays out is that for the company, right, all the frivolous, meritless claims that have ever been made against it in the past that they used to just settle, you don't have to settle them anymore, right? Because if you didn't do anything wrong, defend yourself as a company for 100 days and it'll be done and you're going to win. But on the other side, and this is that, uh, the message to the employees is like, if we truly wronged you and you have a legitimate grievance against us, guess what? On this platform that we just adopted and put into your employee handbook or your employee agreement, we as a company can't play games anymore against you. If you want to hold us accountable, it's very easy for you to, like, file that claim and bring us to court, right? To arbitration. We will have to defend ourselves, but it's not going to be two years. It's going to be done really quickly. And you also can get on with your life. But more importantly, there are no games that a company can play. And so what's right is right. And so if we truly wronged you and you have a real grievance, then there it is. It's going to be done. You're going to hold us accountable really, really quickly. And several of our customers have used that right to explain that to their employees. And it's been well received because it's not even a narrative, it's just true, right?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. It's kind of cut and dry, black and white. You get to see, you know, understand it. And just the speed to resolution is what I'm amazed by. So I personally give you all kudos. Well, Rich, I can't believe time has flown so fast, but we can't let you sneak out of here without asking you our signature question that we ask all of our guests, and that is, which of the seven leadership traits that we write about in our book really resonated with you? And you were so kind to share that actually two popped out for you. One was intrapreneurship, and the second one was courageous agility. And for my new listeners, we'd love to give you a quick definition. So intrapreneurship is all about identifying new opportunities to develop or improve products, operations, or services. It's all about continuously making things better in new and innovative ways. And then courageous agility is all about having the courage, uh, to move forward, even if you're uncertain about the future. So curious minds want to know, Rich, why did intrapreneurship and courageous agility really pop for you?

Speaker B: Well, I think they go hand in hand. And so we'll start with entrepreneurship. Certainly as an entrepreneur myself, that jumps out, but I think within any size organization you want, at least, I've always valued, you know, when I've kind of built out my teams or sought, you know, folks for certain projects within a company. I, uh, always value the entrepreneurial folks, right? The people who are constantly looking for ways to not just make themselves better, but also, you know, make everything else around them better and to come with those ideas, right? And I mean that that's how companies move forward and that's how things improve, is you want the people who are never settling for good enough. And so that, of course, resonates with me immensely. But then the second part of that and why the courageous agility comes into play is great now that you want to make improvements, whether it's like, incremental improvements or large improvements, while a lot of people then kind of get stuck at the idea phase, like, oh, wouldn't it be nice if X. Right. But then the execution needs to happen. And I think that's where the courageous agility is really, really important. Because, frankly, I think most things you're never going to have 100% certainty. Right. Um, in life, certainly in business, I'm a strong believer in the mantra of making decisions 60 or 70% certainty, knowing that very few decisions are irreversible.

Speaker A: That's right.

Speaker B: And so as long as you're like, you make the decision, try it out, move ahead, you make a mistake, be aware, be self aware. Right. And m own it and reverse it. I think making decisions quickly is kind of that second half of then truly improving an organization. So that's kind of how I saw that the two of them really going hand in hand.

Speaker A: I always tell my team there's nothing short of murder that we can't course correct. So outside of murder, we can always come back, re pivot, rethink, redo. So I love that 100%. Well, thanks so much for your insights, Rich. You know, we're going to have all your information, your bio, links to where to find you and new era all in our show notes. But I always love to give airtime to guests to share as well. So can you please share where, uh, the audience can find you? A new era.

Speaker B: Yeah, reach out to me directly. It's rich Lee@neweraadr. Uh.com.

Speaker A: fantastic. And the website is again for the

Speaker B: company website is www.neweraadr.com.

Speaker A: perfect. Wonderful. Well, thanks again, Rich, for your time. There was so many insightful things that you brought to the table. I personally, just because of my, probably my profession and everything, I appreciate what you all are doing and I hope you all continue to grow and expand and really positively impact, uh, the world of business and people out there.

Speaker B: Thanks so much. That means a lot, Karen.

Speaker A: Oh, you're welcome. And thank you to listeners as well for the gift of your time. Because we know that there are literally a million of other podcasts out there that you can be listening to and we do not take your patronage lightly. All that we ask is that you like and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform of choice. And please share the podcast with just one friend because by doing so, we'll all get smarter about blended work versus Thistle work. Thanks so much and we will see you next week. Well, that's our show for today. Thank you again for listening to the Blended Workforces at Work podcast. You can check out the show notes, additional episodes, bonus resources, and also submit guest recommendations on our website@blendedworkforcesatwork.com youm can also follow me, uh, on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram or YouTube by searching for the name Karen Rhodes with Karen being spelled K. A R A M And if you like the show, the greatest gift you can give would be to subscribe and leave a rating on your favorite podcast platform of choice. This podcast has been a production of shockingly different Leadership, a global consultancy which helps organizations execute their people talent development and organizational effectiveness initiatives on an on demand contract, fractional or project basis. Huge thanks to the SDL production and editing team for a job well done. Bye for now.