This Week in Hospitality: Pali Society Goes Bonvoy, Hilton's Incubating 5 New Brands, and Hot Takes with Skift's Hospitality Editor, Sean O'Neil

Speaker A: Scott, you've got like. I've got like four invites from you, by the way, on my calendar. You. You invite me to my own podcast recordings. I don't know what. I don't know what's going on.

Speaker B: I always, I often get the Scott invite too.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Scott, do you have some agent working for you right now that's like managing your calendar?

Speaker B: He's just so welcoming. He's just trying to be like extra hospitable, you know.

Speaker D: Listen, Scott side hustles you that my day started at 4am Took a ferry at 5:55 over to Venice, 20 minutes, shot all day, Literally just got back, shower, change, and I'm here.

Speaker E: We love your commitments.

Speaker A: God, I mean, look at that shirt. Create, right? I mean, is there a marketing shirt?

Speaker B: Social platforms are going to be the new OTAs.

Speaker D: Whoever owns the moment of intent controls booklets.

Speaker E: Are we going to get a bubble? There are thousands of hotels with hundreds of rooms that, uh, still need to be filled.

Speaker B: We're going to be focused on this independent, cool lifestyle and luxury. But I have to mark it like a bank.

Speaker D: I think that we can give our 2 cents into the stories that are going on.

Speaker A: Will be in your ears and on your screens every Friday morning.

Speaker B: Let's do it. Let's roll.

Speaker D: This is the gold, bro.

Speaker B: This is the gold.

Speaker A: So, guys, I have a couple stories. One.

Speaker D: All right.

Speaker A: And we don't have time to talk to about both of them, but like, do you guys want to hear a story about a raccoon or the story of Hotel Emma in San Antonio?

Speaker B: I've got a raccoon story for you as well if you want to go.

Speaker A: Okay, let's do the raccoon story and then next week we can do Hotel Emma's story. Uh, because that's probably publishing on behind the Stage next week. Raccoon story. This is also short and sweet. So, yeah, a couple nights ago, I hear some like, you know, skirmishing around the back of my house. I don't go look because why would I go out in the dark and see what animals out there, right? So you're like, let it happen or ever. In the morning, uh, my son, my little son, 3 year old, is like, dad, there's someone ate cookies on the couch. And I was like, what? Like, no one ate cookies. What are you talking about, man? Yes, I ate cookies on the couch. Well, to be fair, he meant the couch outside. Like the little like, you know, outside furniture that we have. So kid you not. Somehow a raccoon went into our trash can. Pulled out cookies, then, like, and our trash cans on like the left side of the house. He walked around to the back, walked up our deck, sat like, popped a squat on our outdoor furniture and just started eating the cookies. And the reason we know this is his paw prints or hers paw prints are all over the frickin furniture. Like, I mean, what a badass move, right? As a raccoon, like, you don't just go and dig through someone's trash, you then go and like, sit on the furniture and enjoy. Enjoy your winnings, right? How insane is that? Has that ever happened to you guys?

Speaker E: So just for, for our European listeners, because, um, I had to look this up too. Raccoons, uh, are intelligent nocturnal mammals native to North America. So they're intelligent, hence the fact they

Speaker B: sell exposable thumbs too, right? That's what makes them so, so crafty and clever.

Speaker C: So, um, and some are pretty big. I have a friend in East New York and he just was scared because there was like these giant ones out, you know, like, terrorizing him at nighttime. They're a little scary. Sorry, Ben, to cut you off.

Speaker B: No worries, Sean. M. Mine is a little longer. I'll try to give you the short version. It's honestly been a nightmare. So, um, won't get into too much of the detail, but we had a raccoon break into our attic, ripped off an air vent to the outside of the H vac duct, went through the H vac duct, made a little home in there. Was kind of like it was home base for a while. We kept hearing something, so we had somebody come check out, found out it was raccoon. Raccoon also brought fleas into my house. So I am now outside of my house for the past, like, month and still dealing with this like, you know, insane raccoon derived situation. So not the biggest raccoon fan right now, but had, uh, a similar, similar experience.

Speaker C: Yeah, that is the worst, Ben.

Speaker A: Yes, it is.

Speaker B: It is. It is literally the worst.

Speaker A: It's horrible. It's horrible. Um, but, but you know what? That's the suburbs for you, right? Uh, I never had a raccoon visit me in Washington D.C. so. And speaking of Washington D.C. for our listeners, uh, in case you missed it, Sean o'.

Speaker C: Neill.

Speaker A: We've got Sean o' Neill here from skift, who is joining us on the POD today. Super excited to have you, Sean. We were just joking right before we hit Go Live here that we would not have a podcast if it weren't for you, Sean, because we literally read your stories every week and then talk about it. And you and, you know, Rafa get some love as well. Uh, there's, you know, occasionally another great SKIFT reporter, and every once in a while, we go to the travel and leisures of the world, the other, you know, outlets to grab a story. But SKIFT has been a, uh, goldmine for us to riff on for the show. So thank you for all the work that you and real journalists do so that those of us who just like talking and don't like writing. I know that you're more writer than talker, Sean, but some of us, I'll speak for myself. More talker than writer. Uh, you would not have the fun that we have every week if it weren't for you. So thanks for coming on the show, man.

Speaker C: Yeah, thanks so much. I mean, all of the clicks that your show helps generate helps put food on the table in my household. And, uh, I.

Speaker A: It's.

Speaker C: I'm on the backs of like, as you say, Rafat, my colleague Luke Martin in the uk And Skiff's trying to act like the decision engine for the travel industry. We're trying to aspire to help give intelligence. Uh, and we're, uh, just one quick little shot, you know, we're more than just a news site. We've got, like 100 people here working, doing a whole bunch of different things, whether it's executive search, helping, benchmarking, uh, for different market sectors, helping to, um, have people. If you're in Women in Travel and you're an executive and you're trying to raise, uh, your game level up, we have this sort of like, net networking service called Women Leading Travel. And so it is. What's really great about the organization is I'm sort of learning from a whole different bunch of, uh, different experts, uh, you know, whether it's tourism, marketing or other fields. And like, so I've been here for nine years, and I feel really blessed.

Speaker A: Well, uh, it's an honor to have you, and you guys do great work. You know, fun fact, I. I learned this, uh, when Rafat came on my other show, behind the Stays, that, uh, Jason Calacanis, who I've been a fanboy of for some time with, you know, his various podcasts, was maybe the first investor in skift, or at least a very early investor in Skiff. Uh, so that was. That was a fun little nugget that I didn't know. So I open invitation right through Rafat. When jcal wants to come on the show, we'd love to have him. I'm sure. He's got spicy takes on hospitality, right? He' got spicy takes on everything. So, um. But, uh, but, uh, Sean, I want to hear just a little bit. We don't get the opportunity to have guests on the show all the time. So we've got some questions that we want to ask you, given just your, uh, you know, your, your experience, how close you are to the industry. Closer than many of us are to some of the leaders in the industry. But before we kind of do that, I always love to just ask folks a little bit about themselves. So one of my favorite questions to ask on the pod, uh, and more, again, more so behind the stage in this show is if I were to crash a happy hour with you and the people that know Sean best, and if I were to ask them to like, tell me a story about Sean or tell me something about, tell me a Sean ism, like, what would they say? What do you imagine they might say?

Speaker C: Gosh, that is a hard one. Well, D.C. as you know, uh, having lived in the D.C. area for a long time where it's a big brunch, uh, big brunch capital. And so, uh, my husband and I, we've put on a lot of, uh, fun, uh, brunches. And there's been, uh, there's been a few times I've sort of like, uh, gotten, uh, very carried away by my own party. So it's sort of like the guess, the uh, what's supposed to last only for like two hours ends up being sort of like a full day event. So, uh, it's a bit notorious. I'm very buttoned up with, uh, my job, but I think my friends would say maybe I need to like, keep it a little, keep the lid on a little bit more. Sometimes with the parties.

Speaker A: Do you have, like, is there like a specialty, like dish or drink? Like, if I'm invited to, you know, Sean's home for brunch, like, what am I, what, what might I get? Or is there something that you've become known for over the years?

Speaker C: Uh, we try to have different signature drinks. Uh, currently it's the Bellini, but, you know, we've had different, you know, Aperol Spritz, I think was last summer and the Negroni before that. So, yeah, we try to try to mix up the Rose Kennedy is something gets asked for a lot.

Speaker A: There we go.

Speaker C: This spring. Yeah.

Speaker A: Wow. Wow. Amazing. And then did you always, like, growing up, did you always want to be a writer? Like, did you write. Do you write short stories like you wanted to be a Journalist. Like give us the quick skinny that.

Speaker C: Yeah, 32nd version. Always wanted to be uh, in sort of like in journalism on the school newspaper I think. You know, I sort of majored in the school newspaper and just sort of like coasted along in college. That was the thing that most excited me and my first job right out of school. I've always been sort of a reporter and I like uh, sort of like break, you know, sort of sharing like trying to help people. I feel like it's a news you can use sort of aspect I really have enjoyed, like trying to think about the puzzle of like uh, an industry solving, trying to help people try to uh, do better in their work. You know, it feels very tangible, the kind of work that we do with Skiff. So I've really enjoyed that. It's a bit like a soap opera. Once you know who the characters are, who's instead of who's sleeping with who. It's like who might buy who. Uh, you can sort of get into it.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Oh gosh, it's fun. I last question for you before I go. I go to the guys for some other questions, but is I'm always amazed right at people that are able to build like trust over, over many, many years. Right. So if you're going to go, if an executive at a major hotel group, right. Is going to come to you, Sean, or you know, someone on their team is going to come to you with hot tip, right. Or some sort of insight, uh, a scoop, right, as you guys like to call it. What Talk uh, to us a little about that trust building process. Like what does that look like practically? Like are you taking folks out to drinks over 10 years and then they open up to you finally like when they have something big like just give us a little inside baseball into like what it looks like to build trust with people that ultimately become your sources for, for these stories. I know you can't give away all your trade secrets but just, but just give us a little bit, a lot

Speaker D: of brushes and I, yeah, I think

Speaker C: it's yeah, brunches definitely help. Yeah, no, I think. Yeah, yeah. Uh, yeah. Hanging at the airport, hanging at the conference bar after the event is over. I think you get a lot of people loosen up a little bit and talk. Um, I would say I had previously discovered shallow tech and ah, many of us here, like many of your, uh, we all have a lot of experience with the distribution side of things, the OTA side of things and I feel like that sector is a little bit more transactional. Sometimes when I was covering that, tips would just sort of like, come to me a little bit more cold or people were more interested in cold relationships. Hospitality is so much about relationships, as you guys know, and it has really been about building the relationships, sort of like constantly touching base. And I definitely invite anyone who's listening and would like to reach out to me. You can find me sort of in LinkedIn. Would love to sort of like, know what it is that you guys are, um, up, you know, up to. And what do you think is important for Skiff to be covering?

Speaker A: Well said. Well, guys, let's, uh, let's ask Sean some, some questions. We'll see how, how much detail he'll give us. Hopefully, maybe at the end of the day we'll be, we'll be even better, uh, better at ripping off his and riffing on his stories. Uh, but Ben, let's go to you first. Ben, you had a, you had a question you wanted to ask John?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, this, this question, you know, came to me. It's the one I am most personally interested. I know it might be a little juicy and sensitive for you to answer, but, uh, curious what you think. So if you were developing a Hotel in 2026, would you go major flag, hard brand, soft brand collection, like SLH or design hotel or something like that, or independent? What would you do?

Speaker C: So I'm an unconventional person, so I'm going to give a bit of an unconventional answer and bear with me a little bit. There's an idea that I've been, I've been trying to, like, mull in my head, and I'm going to try to workshop it with you, Ben, and you guys. Um, so the main answer is I'd go independent. And the reason is, I believe, um, there's a couple of trends that you guys have been talking about that have been percolating on your podcast of. I know Scott, uh, and Edwin have talked about social media becoming OTAs eventually. We're not Instagram and TikTok. You can't actually book and do everything fully yet, but that's the direction of travel. Um, I know Zach and Ben have talked about agenic AI browsers and how these tools that we're adopting are learning so much about ourselves because we're talking to them every day. They see all of our preferences, and that is going to inform how they, how travel discovery happens. Um, and I think those two, like, tech trends that are happening, um, are really going to drive the ability for distribution to change. I think up until now, distribution has Been um, the bouncer. Um, and it's going to become a matchmaker. Um, and traditionally if you'll, if you'll bear with me, you know, hospitality is going to catch up to where retail and other sectors landed 10 to 15 years ago. You know, Netflix, you know, got us away from the you know, three major television networks. And now if you want to find gay hockey player television show, you can get that long tail thing. If you're interested in a niche kind of magna, if you're really into a particular, you uh, know, kind of Gaelic football, you know, you can find books, you can go on Etsy and find arts and crafts. The long tail has been this whole trend. Hospitality has been behind the curve and I think distribution has been one of the hurdles there. And so this traditional brand market segmentation has really favored the big brands. Um, I, you know I was looking because I'm a nerd, I was looking yesterday. Best Westerns, uh, franchise disclosure documents and they're describing you know, you know, X brand is, you know it is a mid scale brand. It has free breakfast and three continental breakfast. It's in this price pane in these locations and that's that brand. And then the next brand is plus and it has a hot breakfast. So you know it was very sort of segmented and that has really if you, if that is your game, um, you're just trying to get a business Traveler between prices $80 and $100. Um, in such markets you create a brand and that and you put a flag out and that's there and it's very old school. And this is my long winded way of saying Ben, I think because of social becoming an ota, because of agency, AI sort of knowing so much about you, it is going to allow a matchmaking to happen. It is going to be easier for people to find uh, a happy point. So Ace Hotels is an example. They only got to about a dozen ish properties and they sort of like they hit a ceiling. And I think one of the factors was distribution being uh, a ceiling for them. They just couldn't find people who loved the turntable in the room, you know the free guitar in the room, like the lobby being like a music center. They, they were ahead of the game and having their lobbies bring locals in to be co working but they could never get enough, they couldn't do the matchmaking which gave them enough premiums and, and price, uh, compression night, compression nights to be able to make the, the whole thing work. That was the only problem with them. But I Think as a broad thing, I think the opportunity things that are trends that are happening in fashion where you have upstart brands like in cosmetics where in years I'm going to wrap up in 30 seconds past 10 years these upstart brands, they have uh, boomed. They've gone from like 10% market share to more than a third market share. So I think there's a similar trend is going to happen because of all these distribution trends that I'm talking about. The long tail is going to win. I think it's a niche ification of travel where the niche interests I have are going to match the niche interest of a hotel that has a strong point of view. Real good storytelling. And so I think the wind is at the tail of brands like what you're developing Ben and what Edwin and Scott have been championing for a long time. So that's my long winded answer.

Speaker B: Quick follow up. Just quick follow up. Why do you think that hospitality as an industry is so slow relative to these other industries like DTC and all the rest?

Speaker C: So the split ownership structure is a real stumbling block. You know the people, one set of people in a lot of it. One set of people owns the asset, another set of people is managing it. Another set of people has got the IP for the brands and you just can't get them on the same page. Uh, and also you know, capital matters, you know, I mean uh, you've all talked at various points. At a certain point there has been uh, the cost pressures, you know make sometimes don't give you enough capital uh to innovate.

Speaker E: And there's often a risk, risk adverse decision making process. Right, yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: I mean you've talked about. It's the same usual characters who, I forget who I think it may be. It was Scott who had on a previous episode said, you know it's these same people who are a certain age demographic who's been doing the same thing for many decade. They're not in touch necessarily which what the next generation consumer is and they're risk averse. It's easier to underwrite something that they

Speaker A: already know from a, from a model perspective. I know that we have like one off anecdotes here. Like Ben I think is a. Is a good example here and the work that he's doing with his various projects. But, but Sean, do you, do you see any sort of, you know, I don't even know if you could call it a trend. But do you uh, do you hear more, more murmurings around models where folks are maybe considering Asset heavy again, maybe the real estate owner is the same as the IP owner as the same management, uh, ownership group. Do you see a, uh, 2/3, 1/3, sort of. I know that there are like one off and two off examples of this all over the place. But like from your reporting and your insights from, and from a trend perspective, is, is anything moving in one direction or the other? Is it or does it seem pretty stagnant?

Speaker C: So I have one of those annoying questions of like it's both true at the same time, you know, I think so. On the one hand there's this big oceanic current of financialization of all these capital pressures that are really pushing Asset light. You see, CitizenM had such a good ground game as an independent player. They were unified owner, operator, marketer, distributor. And they sold out. They sold the brand to Marriott. Um, you see minor, uh, International, which you've talked about in the podcast, you know Bill Heineke, the founder there, generational talent. It was an owner mindset. That's the way they developed Anatar in 25 years to become such a strong leader in luxury. And now they're moving Asset Light. They're going to put a REIT for their hotels, et cetera. So there's just this huge pressure to do that by financial market for a variety of structural reasons. But I think, I think there is a real opportunity when everyone is zigging if you zag, there's a real opportunity. And I talked to a professor, an associate professor Ines Blah at ehl. EHL is one of the best hospitality schools in the world. She did a paper that was very well reviewed, won awards for it about how Asset Light it cannot possibly be. One business model is best for everyone. And if you talk in the travel industry, I'm just startled. It's like a near religious belief in Asset Light, um, that that's the only way you can do things. And um, I think there's a real opportunity to innovate and the real innovators are going to be I think an owner asset. And also I think uh, uh, with airb, I think the branded short term rental concept, the branded vacation rental concept as a hotel stay that got really tarnished because of the master lease. There was a lot of things that happened in the pandemic that ruined the business model. But I think Placemaker is a brand which is now partnered with Hilton. They have figured out a way to do it. I think there's going to be alternative hybrid concepts that are also going to be sort of like quasi owner operated that are also going to come into the space as well. Um, so you know, if in Europe, um, several of these brands are actually doing quite well, the equivalents of Saunders have actually done quite well in, in Europe. So it's partly about the cap stack. Um, so my, my long answer is I think 2/3. Yeah, it's probably still going to be as you're saying Zach, the majority is still going to be this asset light split, ownership structure owner, you know, operators split. Uh but then I think they're much of the innovation energy and actual the alpha might be in the third. That's not.

Speaker A: I want to go to Edwin here man. Edwin, what's your question? Uh, for Sean.

Speaker E: Right, so you cover a lot of different areas of hospitality and travel in all your reporting. Um, what's the One story in 2026 that you covered on Skift that you think will define or already has defined how we look at hospitality in the future? So the one big seismic shift likely to happen and how will that play out in your view?

Speaker A: Um,

Speaker C: it's I think there. How to do experiential. I don't. There's not a particular headline that I think is like the killer headline like Uber and Expedia partnering up or a particular earnings call I don't think is like the story we're going to be talking about five years from now. Uh, but I do think uh, I, I think the, the members club concept is going to get uh, bigger and the things that are built around that the idea of providing sort of like an exclusive space where you find like minded people and you're getting, they're helping you get connection. Um, is this. But how to do that operationally? Uh, in a way that is. It doesn't have to be mass scale but that is repeatable and you can get consistent margins on even if it is at a small batch scale but you can repeat it in different markets and I think I keep seeing that bubble up as like, you know, especially. And there's going to be, I think. I know this is a jumbled answer to your question Edwin, but I think there is a surge in demand especially with these IPOs where you have um, space X and soon it's going to be the anthropic and OpenAI. There's going to be a lot of millionaires coming in that they are going to want really exceptional experiences and they want to.

Speaker E: With like minded people.

Speaker C: Yes, with like minded people. Not with you know, people redeeming their, their points, you know, who have just been road warriors all the time. Which are my people but they're not necessarily their people. So I think how. Trying to figure that out, you know. You know Soho House may have struggled you know in the public market but there are so many you know, members clubs that have been. Been sort uh, of brought up and that concept, whether it's the you know another to wrap up in 30 seconds. You know you see many luxury hotels have been experimented with these chef series. Like it'll be we're just going to get 12 guests together. We're going to invite them, they just happen to be at the property. We're getting this Michelin star chef in here or we're going to get this uh, entertainer happens to be passing through town, a major tennis celebrity. We're creating an evening of intimacy and it's a moment of surprise and serendipity and I think you know, Embark, um, Embark uh, uh, Beyond I think is the name of a Jack Ozon's luxury uh travel agency. He just put out a report and really on point report about the direction where ultra luxury is going and connection is so important. So many of these people because of digital and all these pressures trying to find like minded people. So um, important. So I think even though it's a small part, it's, it's a high alpha.

Speaker E: Sorry Zach, do you think the membership model also works for hotels? Because a lot of membership clubs may have rooms but they're really based around you know, locality and community.

Speaker C: It's a really good question. Six Senses I guess is going to test a small members club. Uh, uh, it'll be interesting to see what experiments happen. I know and the smor has sort

Speaker A: of thought about it uh, actually on that note too. Where do you see Sean, the opportunity. Like do you see the, like the. You think about the amexes of the world, right? The, the chase, the chases of world. Even capital ones, right. Like the, these banks, right they're, they're getting more into in. In real life experiences. Obviously Capital one's got their capital One cafes. They're not. Their lounges are some of the best in like the D.C. area now right. Obviously Centurion Lounge is nothing new but like do you see the credit card companies who are you know m for depending on who you talk to, more, more membership today than they are or more perceived as membership, right than just a credit card today. Uh, do you see them as having the upper hand and being able to help cultivate some of these experiences or like. Or is it. No, no, no. We're going to see like 10 more Soho House experiments that are not necessarily tied to a credit card? Or do you think Amex, Chase etc are better positioned to kind of create this community sort of high end cultivated experience that you're talking about?

Speaker C: Uh, I think Zach, you nailed it with the first half there. I think that is exactly on point. That's entire. I feel, I feel the same way. And if you asked me when I talk to C suite travel execs, you know, uh, off, off stage, you know, at the end, at the cocktail party afterward when it's not on the record and what is the thing that's most on their mind? It's very true. They're concerned when they talk on stages about cost inflation, you know of property insurance or labor costs or how to adopt AI are all very important things. But those fintech players, the capital ones of the world, that is their number one concern that keeps them up at night at 4am because they are competing for how do you play with them. Like they're frenemies and so you can work in some ways but uh, they have the capital, they have much more frequent touch points with the customers. And I think there's some smugness to think that they own the four walls and once the customer's on property they're interacting with them. But in fact there's a lot that these capital ones, um, and even if Uber gets into it, Amazon gets into it, there's a lot of players, Amex might up its game. They could like offer servicing products if you have irregular operations. You know Zach is supposed to get to San Antonio's flights canceled. This happens here. We can, you know, if you've booked through us, we'll handle all of that rebooking and process here for you. Um, whereas the hotel doesn't have the cross the spectrum ability to do that. And also so I think frequent touch points being in the platform, it is a real challenge to the whole model of it's Bonvoy or Honors and that's what we have as a game. So uh, that's not quite answering what you're saying but I think the membership potential of it um, is quite big.

Speaker A: Um, one quick anecdote on that too. I had an email exchange with uh, a hotel I've gone to multiple times. It's a beautiful five star hotel uh, in Boston and I won't reveal the name because I do love the hotel and this is maybe embarrassing if you're the, if, if you know the owner was tuning in they, they would not want to hear this. But I, so I I. I typically book through fine hotels and resorts. Right. Uh, especially when, you know, first time I'm staying at a property because you get your benefits and it's nice, blah, blah. And anytime I've booked through fine hotels and resorts, like, I mean, it's like they roll the red carpet out for me. They're. It's as if I, like, just won the lottery. Right. Compared to, like, your standard check in. So, anyways, I've been to this hotel now three times, so I'm. And I'm looking to go back again for a couple days in August. And so I reached out to them directly, said, hey, like, you know, I'd love to just book direct with you at this point. You guys have been so gracious to me and my family. Uh, you know, quick question though. Like, can I still get the, you know, Amex, like, benefits here if I. If I book direct with you? And the response. And I took a screenshot of it and I'll share it. I'll share it with you guys if you're interested. I. I don't want to embarrass anyone publicly, but, like, she. This. The. The concierge literally told me to book through Amex because they couldn't offer the same perks if I booked direct with them. And I was out stunned. And I don't know enough about, like, to be honest, I don't know enough about the model here. I don't know if, like, they get a big kickback from M Amex. I don't think that that's how it works. Uh, and, you know, and so, and, but, but she told me she could not offer me the same benefits that they're already going to offer me.

Speaker C: Right, right.

Speaker A: And I assume they would have saved the 18 or whatever it, like.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And yet she said, no, no, you should book through fine hotels and resorts. And her GM was cc'd on the email because I emailed him initially. Right. So he's aware of this. And so I don't know what it. What's going on, but, like, whatever. Whatever that deal is, I want in on that deal.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It could be a, you know, loyalty thing with fine hotels and resorts because you brought them up, you know, going around them. I don't know. I mean, it could be something.

Speaker E: No, it's just that there's no, there's no button for that in the system. That's all

Speaker B: that is.

Speaker A: Type it in manually.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Override. Uh, yeah, yeah. Anyway, sorry, I share that. I share that, Sean, because of, you know, I think it's, it's interesting, right? Like if uh, if this incredible property, who I'm a loyal guest of now is telling me that the only way to get my, you know, $150 credit to the bar that you know, $84 in uh, credit per person for breakfast, like is to book through amex, then I'm going to book through Amex, like. Right?

Speaker C: Yeah. I mean that anecdote is perfectly spot on. Like, I mean it's wild and I'm. It's crazy that you had. When I want to get a T shirt printed like, you know, there is no button for that because I think at hotel conferences that would be the best.

Speaker E: It's true though.

Speaker A: Scott, what about you man? What's your uh, question for Sean?

Speaker D: So I have a part A and B. So is there a hotel company you think is making all the right moves right now but isn't getting enough credit? And on the flip side, is there a trend that the entire hotel industry seems excited about that you think is actually overhyped?

Speaker C: Gosh, um, well, I, you know, you know, as a, as a reporter I can't really pick favorites about um, a like a hotel company. I. And as.

Speaker B: Describe the logo. Describe

Speaker C: um.

Speaker D: I.

Speaker A: It's.

Speaker C: It's um. That's a tough one. Um, I do think there, I would say the ones that are, have the most promising ground game. Go back to the point that I made earlier, which they do have their, their owner operated in a unified way. Uh, or else even if things are split, structured, you know, it's family offices that are backing the money. There is a unified. We're all on the same mission and pushing in the same way forward. And because we're at this, the asset light model works in a lot of different situations for a lot of and is beautiful. I'm ah, not saying it's a bad model, but when it comes to innovation at this particular moment when there's so many opportunities. Um, I'm not directly giving you a great answer there, Scott, but Skiff just had a data and AI conference and I was, you know, I interviewed a lot of people uh, on stage for that event and I was really struck by the suppliers, the hotel companies saying our tech teams, you know, if we can, if we can. If we. Now that you have what used to be called vibe coding, you know the assisted coding, you why use the outside point solution? Let's build it in house if we can be done in a few weeks. And I think there's an opportunity for real innovation of moving much more quickly now in the next couple of years, there's this opportunity to leapfrog ahead of some of the other players that are, they're stuck, uh, are going to be much slower. And I think the hotel brands that have, they're willing to make that kind of experimentation, um, they're creating that culture of experimentation. They're empowering their teams to, to do that in sort of like, in a loosely coordinated way. Um, uh, and that have, that have an organizational structure that can actually support that, meaning everyone is aligned. And so there are a few companies out there. I can't really name them because I also don't know behind the scenes whether what they say they're doing is actually whether, you know, it's still early. But that, that's my, my sense. And I'm sorry, but your second question. Could you repeat that again? Scott? Sorry.

Speaker D: Is there a trend that the entire industry seems excited about that you actually think is overhyped?

Speaker C: Um, uh, I think wellness is very poorly defined. It's like 100 of people are doing wellness and like 5% of it is doing it in a really interesting, effective way, like, um, and longevity. I think that's where a lot of people are. I, I feel like there's a real opportunity for the canyon ranches of the world, the equinox hotels of the world, to really tap into where wellness is, not like where it was 10 or 15 years ago. Everyone's got an, you know, the, the customer segment that is going and spending money at wellness and longevity places. They've got an aura ring. They've got, you know, the, the, you know, they have wellness at so many phases of their life. So you need to be actually integrating that. It's not like, oh, I'm now having my wellness moment, you know, one, you know, once a season at your luxury resort, it has to be a continuum. And I think very few of the hospitality places have really, like, touched into that. It's really a lot of more talk than reality.

Speaker E: Yeah, And I think you're absolutely right. I think there's also a, um, um, you can already see it, the movement of, you know, don't tell me all these things that I need to do. Right. Because a lot of these venues, you check in and you have to, you have to, you have to. And it's like a list of things. And, and at some point, I think we're going to get a reverse reaction from, from the world to say, don't tell me what to do. I'm already doing all these things in my daily Life, my holidays. I don't want to be told to do it.

Speaker B: Just.

Speaker E: I just want to have the option, but the freedom to do nothing. And I think some of these wellness resorts are just pushing you into, you know, a program that already.

Speaker D: Look.

Speaker E: Makes me tired when I look at it on paper, but it's true.

Speaker B: On the flip side, I'm a health and wellness junkie and, like, go to a lot of these places. Yeah, no, no.

Speaker E: One thing doesn't have to exclude the other.

Speaker B: It's totally fair. Uh, I do want to validate, though. Like, I've been to a bunch of these places, right? Experienced them firsthand. Shaw Canyon Ranch, like, and they're amazing. But it's. It is shocking that I can't just link my aura data or that I can't, you know, just. Just pair my function health labs and get, like, a tailor. I have to go in, you know, a bunch of them have practitioners and people that clinicians. You go in, and I have to, like, show them on my phone, right? It kind of wild. Um, or you have a smart. You have a smart bed, but I can't link my. Or it is kind of surprising. So, um, hopefully they figure that out sooner than later.

Speaker A: Is that. Is that. Is that like a privacy issue? Is it like a there's no partnerships just don't exist issue or, like.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: There's no.

Speaker E: But there's no button for.

Speaker A: No button.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I'm with Edwin on this one.

Speaker D: I know there's no.

Speaker B: Because all these. All the, like, aura has partnerships with other companies to integrate data. So it's like, why can't you do it with hotels, right?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What I want is I want to be able to go and I want, like, every ad I see for some health product on Instagram to be available, right? So my athletic greens, the dose stuff, that dose that everyone's talking about, right? Like, all, uh, like the aura rings. I want to be able to. I want to be able to talk someone. I want to be. Have my baseline.

Speaker C: All right.

Speaker A: I just want to try everything. Like, let's try it. All right. For a week. And then I want you to tell me, like, what's. What is best for me, or, like, I want to be able to discern, like, what does my body respond, you know, respond best to, et cetera. That's what I want. I want all the Instagram ads that I get all the time. I want to be able to test them in. In.

Speaker C: In.

Speaker A: In a moment, right? Uh, over the course of a long weekend or Something.

Speaker B: They have some of that I did. They actually have, like, a tech experience at Canyon Ranch, where I tested, like, three different devices, like a vagus nerve stimulator.

Speaker A: Ah.

Speaker B: Which is, like, bilateral stimulation.

Speaker E: Fun. That's.

Speaker B: Which was really cool. Yeah. Turned me on to emdr, which deals with that bilateral simulation. So I have that device now. So it was. It was actually very cool. So some of them, I think, are doing that. But it would also be nice. There's so many things that these places offer. It's, like, overwhelming. So, like, if you have all my data, tell me what you think I should do, right? Just, like, build my itinerary for me. Personalized, right?

Speaker A: Yeah. Like, say, like, hey, like, here's what we think you should do, but if you want to tell us a little bit more about your goals, like, what are you trying to optimize for in the next year of your life or whatever it is. Right. And then we'll customize accordingly. Yeah. There's no excuse. Someone was saying this the other day. Uh, I think this was on some other podcast I was listening to about how, like, the. The businesses that analyze your data, like, are. Are gone. Right? Like. Like, meaning, like, there's no need to go pay a McKinsey to go and, like, analyze your customer data anymore. Analyze, like, help you get better insights into, you know, who your ICP is, etc. Because, you know, any can do that better. Right. And faster and more. More interestingly than. Than a consulting firm of a decade ago could do. And so to. To that point, Ben, like, the tooling exists today. It's a matter of just, I guess, prioritizing this, prioritizing the right partnerships, right? So that, like, aura, uh, can sync up with Canyon Ranch or whatever it is, uh, and then just making sure that folks are actually focused on. On this. But, like, to me, like, this is the future of guest experience. Like, this is the future of concierge. It looks like this.

Speaker E: I think Scott's trying to say something with his hat. He's put a hat on.

Speaker B: I can't read it. I can't read it massively.

Speaker A: That's a Journey hat, isn't it, Scott?

Speaker D: Uh, yeah, baby, yeah.

Speaker A: Late checkout club. No one can read it.

Speaker E: He was trying to grab attention, and none of us could read what's on his hat.

Speaker A: So that was from Branding101.

Speaker D: Make the words bigger.

Speaker A: Make the words. Uh, Corey on our team, who, uh, is the owner of the Madrona Hotel in, uh, Healdsburg, and he helps lead brand at Journey. He thought a Lot about the, uh, the, uh, font and style there. So I'm sure he had a. I'm sure he had good intention. I'm sure he'd have a good quip you response as to why. Why it's exactly the height that it is. I don't know the answer, though. So take it up.

Speaker D: I will have a response for him.

Speaker A: Okay, good, good. Um, all right, well, I want to jump into some stories, guys, uh, for that we. That. That Skift reported on this week, uh, over the last seven days since we recorded the pod. And, uh, between. We talk about this, like, almost every week now. Actually, I forgot to tell you guys this. I was at high tech for, like, a hot second last week when I didn't see Scott.

Speaker D: You were there.

Speaker A: Uh, one of the Muse guys, someone from Muse was like, they, like, recognized the pod and they were like, oh, yeah, thank you for, like, you're always shouting out Muse. I was like, people at this point think Skifft and Ormuse sponsor this show, but they don't, you know, but the amount that they references, they might as well. I'm still waiting, waiting for like, you know, a check to arrive. I'm so waiting for black limousine to show up and just be like, you know, we're ready to return the favor, good sir.

Speaker B: At least a story about the pod, you know, like a story about the something.

Speaker A: Right? You know, it'll come in good time. I can be patient. But anyways, that's a. That's a long way of saying that, uh, uh, one of the stories that you guys. You guys broke this week, or I guess it was last week at this time now, Sean, was that Pali Society joined. Joined Design Hotels by Marriott. Quite frankly, this shocked me. Shocked a lot of my friends in the independent space as well. Got a lot of nice DMS about it. Slash, what the hell DMS about this? Um, but just for folks who might have not been in the Loop, 16 Pali Society hotels, which, if you don't know Pali Society, they're like this cool California neighborhood obsessed, like, boutique portfolio that Avi Broche, uh, has been building since 2008. They became the largest single portfolio edition in Design Hotels history. So several other hotels, like Hotel Lily in Beverly Hills, Lapit Poly, uh, in St. Helena, uh, Silver Lake Pool and Inn, and 13 others can now earn and redeem Marriott Bonvoy points at these respective properties. Uh, everyone's saying this is just a, um, distribution play. Uh, these. This boutique portfolio is incredible. But like every hotel, they. They need more distribution. They need more uh, more, uh, nights, uh, filled. Um, but what I, what I thought was kind of interesting about this story is this is a brand that people have pointed to for years as like their model. Right. Like, I want to be this type of independent collection like Pali Society is. Edwin, I want to go to you here first. What did you think of the story? You obviously spent, uh, many years at Marriott. I don't know how well you know design hotels. And if you were still there at the time that that acquisition happened, but curious to get your take on this. And then more broadly, what do you think, if anything, this says about independent collections more, more generally, is there, uh, anything we should be, you know, uh, are there any sort of underlying trends here that stood out to you? Or does this seem like this is kind of just the next evolution? Pali Society needs to grow. This is the way that they're going to continue to, to grow in the, in the way that they'd like this partnership. It was either this partnership or, or Hilton or somebody else. Like, how do you read the story?

Speaker E: Yeah, I mean, listen, I'm a big fan of design hotels. Uh, I've seen them grow over the past years. I think what they're, what they're doing is fantastic. If you look at the member events they're doing globally, I mean, they're really putting, ah, a group of hotels on the map that may not have had visibility otherwise. So same thing with Palace Society. Um, I think a lot of people outside of the US May not know this company. So. Smart move. Absolutely. Um, provided they treat merit, like you said, as a distribution partner, not an operating philosophy philosophy, because we talk about this a lot, but we often confuse distribution with identity. Marriott sells rooms, um, and it doesn't have to define the guest experience. So I think the question here is whether Palace Society has a discipline to keep saying no, um, because we know sometimes where these programs go and not whether Marriott changes Palace Society. Um, so I think they're deliberately avoiding many of the things that homogenized boutique hotels, um, you know, they preserve greater freedom over operations, brand standards. I think that's an important detail

Speaker D: because

Speaker E: we know luxury boutique hotels don't compete on consistency. You know, they compete on character. And I think from an owner's perspective, the upside is very obvious. I think the risk here is probably a bit more subtle. Um, and when Marriott guests come with more expectations and benefits they have elsewhere, and this happens over and over again, uh, in brands, um, then that brand erosion starts hitting in. But that rarely happens overnight. It happens. One commercial decision at A time. So I'm working with a small but growing brand at the moment, um, based out of the uk. We're expanding in Europe and we're having the same discussion. How do you get that visibility, how do you get that distribution? And how do you not lose, um, what you're trying to build and which partners are out there? You can be really successful if you're using Marriott as a marketing channel. I think the unsuccessful ones, um, you've seen this happen in the world, gradually start operating for Marriott guests instead of their own guests. Um, and I think the irony sometimes here is that Marriott benefits most when independents, um, remain genuinely independent because these Bonvoy members aren't looking for another predictable Marriott. They're looking for experience that Marriott couldn't build itself. So in this, this, this case, I think they've made a very clever move. But, you know, it's, it's, the test is not now in 2026, it'll be in five years when, you know, things develop, when occupancy softens and when owners perhaps want more revenue. And then, you know, then it is to decide if Marriott inevitably wants a closer relationship or not. Um, and, uh, I think that's the moment you'll find out when Design Hotels remains a distribution partnership or not.

Speaker A: Ben, what do you think? Ben?

Speaker B: I think it's about finance, uh, actually. So I think that this makes his entire portfolio that much easier to finance, um, or upon selling, I bet he gets a better cap rate being in Marriott Design Hotels. So, um, that's where my head goes. I don't, I mean, it seems like Pali society is like pretty successful. Everyone could, everyone could, you know, use more distribution. But I do wonder if a bigger exit is in the future in the next few years. And this is sort of a way to set the stage to maximize that.

Speaker A: Scott, before we go to Sean on this, uh, any, uh, any other additional musings or insights?

Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, I always laugh when I hear hotel companies say that they're joining a major loyalty ecosystem, but they're going to stay completely independent. That's like moving into your girlfriend's house and saying nothing is going to change. Look, I understand exactly why they're doing it. Distribution wins, occupancy wins, cash flow wins. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Every owner in the world loves independence until they have empty rooms. So what we're really watching is a trend that's been happening for years. The middle is disappearing. You're either becoming a giant global brand or you're finding some way to plug into one. The question isn't whether Marriott will change them. The question is how long it's going

Speaker A: to take M I when Proper joined. Because proper. Proper's joined design hotels, like, five years ago or three years ago, whatever. Anyways, maybe it was like two years after that acquisition. I stayed at the Proper in San Francisco, and I had gotten an email that morning from Marriott Bonvoy saying, like, hey, you know, uh, I hope you enjoy your stay at the Proper. Uh, here's a $50 dining credit, uh, for the bar. And they have actually one of my favorite bars, like, I've ever been to. I don't know if you guys have been to the Proper in San Francisco, but they've got a really cool, like, rooftop bar. Anyway, so I was super excited and I was like, yeah, like, this is gonna be. And I was already planning on spending, like, a fair amount of money anyways. I go and try to redeem it and like, literally, like, ah, there's no button to push, right? And. And. And the entire experience was. Was no one could find. I had to contact the manager. The manager couldn't find the promotion. It was like a total, like, nightmare. And what was just interesting to me about that experience, obviously I have a bias towards independent hotels generally, but it was like, this is kind of a moment where, like, like, I'm a traveler who. I'll dip, right? I'll go back and forth a little bit. Like, I still. I care about my points. I like feeling special if my status is supposed to mean something. And now my status, I specifically chose that hotel, by the way, because my status, right, was supposed to mean something there. And then, like, literally the benefits I was promised were just, like, not delivered. So I don't know if I was more mad at, like, the Proper hotel in that moment or Bonvoy or both. Um, and I don't really have a larger point to this anecdote other than sharing that experience. And I do think, like, these partnerships, right, they get announced, they look really great on paper. People, you know, industry talks about it, but. But I think the average consumer, especially the average discerning consumer like you, you have to show up for them. Like, you have to show up for that discerning consumer. Otherwise this partnership really, like, wasn't worth it, right? Because I don't know, like, maybe I'm not like Pali Society icp, but I think I kind of am. And if I had an experience there, like I had at the Proper, it tarnishes the brand of Pali Society. So anyways, John, I want to hear your thoughts. Uh, of course.

Speaker D: Real quick.

Speaker A: Real quick.

Speaker B: Yeah, I stayed at the. I stayed at the same hotel a month ago and I, I booked through Chase Edit and I got a hell of a rate through points with their new like points boost system. Zero issues with the uh, the credit. And I think it might have been m. More 75 bucks or something like that and uh, you know, early.

Speaker C: That's a flex, Ben, all that stuff.

Speaker B: No, absolutely not a flexit. But it's interesting, you know, how much more they're let's say favoring the. The Chase than they are to marry. I just find that interesting. So um, but anyways, go ahead. Sean.

Speaker E: Marriage will have a credit card with

Speaker A: Chase M. It's got to be better. Unless. Unless it's better than the Sapphire reserve. No one's going to use it. Right.

Speaker D: Like ah, I have.

Speaker B: I almost forgot card too. And if you don't, if you don't you put the card on vial like that one, then I wouldn't get any of the benefits. So.

Speaker E: Sorry I interrupt you, Sean.

Speaker C: Yeah, no, I just pile on with Zach. I have that same concern like uh, if I'm a member of the loyalty program, the idea of inconsistent delivery as I go across, you know, what are these options? Like I'm not going to get the, the. The tier status benefit that I want when I arrive. That's a real problem with delivery. Uh, it goes back to Edwin's. Um, yeah, you know, there's no button for that. Um, and I think uh, it's not picking just on merit. You know, when Hyatt partnered with Mr. And Smith's hotels, some people in the program say they're not consistently getting, you know, treated that way at the Property Hilton with small luxury hotels in the world. Not consistent. So it is, it is a problem

Speaker E: across which, which is the really, the scary bit for the future.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker E: Because at some point you're gonna have to give in or not. Um, but either get a revolt of your merit bomber members or you're just going to give in. And then little bit by little bit, you're just changing your business model.

Speaker A: Well, I wish them the best. I, you know, I'm always a proponent of like being positive when partnerships happen and then see and then being critical. Right. In a couple years if it, if it doesn't work. Um, so I, I know that uh, I think a lot of folks in the industry who do really respect Pali society and the brand that they've built, uh, are a little bit like sad about this, but hopefully like you know, there's a cool story in a couple years, and we can point to them as an example of, hey, here's how you do build a collection that's worth talking about and also get, like, you know, the exit that you want, the distribution that you want, the growth that you might want. So good luck to them and the team. I want to go on to the next story here. So, uh, it's so funny teeing up a story that somebody on this pod actually wrote.

Speaker E: Should we even be discussing it?

Speaker A: Yeah, should we even be discussing it? Right. Uh, but, uh, Sean, you had a great piece, uh, this week on Hilton. Uh, Hilton says that more new brands are coming. Uh, and Hilton, as we know, um, you know, not dissimilar from, uh, their competitors, has mostly been buying brands rather than building them in recent years. So they bought Graduate Nomad a deal with Yotel. But their new chief development officer, who helped build Home2Tempo and Motto before he left in 2018, says that that is changing. There will be other organic brands launched in short order. CEO Chris has had this, uh, has teased five or six brands. And there's a new trademark filing, a locked domain and a placeholder social and placeholder social accounts that are already pointing towards a lifestyle concept called Tortoise. Positioned somewhere between Motto and Canopy. The pitch to owners rests heavily on Home2 Suites as proof of concept. A brand that Hilton built from scratch in 2009 that now posts a RevPAR index of 125, roughly 25 points above its competitive set. I want to go to you first here, Ben, before we go to the author himself on this story. What, what did you think when you saw this? Do you think Hilton's positioned better than, let's just say Marriott to build new brands in house now than they were even a few years ago? Is this. Do we need more new brands from Hilton? Like, how do you read this, uh, story and what do you think? Maybe the underlying kind of strategic decision for this move is so.

Speaker B: Great piece, Sean. I like the headline a lot. I think it's when it comes to owners, it's like, does the math make sense? And so if I'm an owner and I'm, you know, I'm going to go brand either way, let's say, why am I going to pick a new upstart Hilton brand? Like, you got to give me some sort of incentives, which I'm sure they will. There's got to be ways to get people in the ecosystem and to bring in great properties or great developers to that ecosystem. So be Interesting to see, you know, in private conversations what all those incentives look like to. To get people on board. Um, for Hilton, I think it makes a ton of sense. I mean, Edwin talks about this a lot. Right. I think that the number of brands and the growing number of brands is more about trying to curry favor with owners, maybe to offer these incentives or to offer a slight, you know, tweak so some developer's property fits in with. With what they're looking for with the brand. Um, so it may be more of an owner play than a consumer play. Given that I don't know that the consumer cares today about, uh, you know, the number 30 brand from Hilton. But, uh, that's my thoughts.

Speaker A: Uh, Scott, any hot, uh, takes here?

Speaker D: I was extremely excited because, you know, my brain had some room for some more brands. Because at this point, you know, it feels like every major hotel company wakes up on a Tuesday and launches another brand. The industry gets excited, developers get a deck, the press writes about it, and the guest has no idea what the difference is. I spend my entire life in hotels. I literally live in them every night of the year. And even I need a flowchart to understand the difference between some of the brands. Imagine being a normal traveler. The question isn't whether Hilton can launch another brand. Of course they can. The question is whether they can create meaning with the new brand. Brand. Because travelers don't buy brands. They buy outcomes. They buy convenience. They buy trust. Right now, trust is low, and convenience is getting low. So what are they doing to change it? That's my question.

Speaker A: Yeah. Edwin, when you. I know that addition was very, very different. Right? But, like, when you think about conversations you were a part of with executives, um, as you guys were concepting that brand, do you. What. What is the cost benefit analysis? I know it. I know there are so many variables, but, like, between going and buying a brand versus building in house, like, obviously, Marriott, uh, bought brands for a very long time. Edition was the first brand that they had concepted. They probably. I mean, their partnership with Traeger alone, like, they spent a lot of money developing that brand. But I'm curious and maybe, Sean, you've got even, uh, additional insight here. When you're. When you're looking at this from a cost perspective, are we living in an environment today where Hilton building six new brands in house is just objectively and significantly cheaper than potentially buying other brands that exist today? You know, are the economies of scales such that, like this, like, why are they more uniquely positioned, I guess, today to start building brands in house than they were a decade ago. Edwin, let's go to you first too and then, and then we can ping the. Sean.

Speaker E: Yeah, I mean listen, I think the addition store is very, very different at the time. And Arnie Sorensen saw an opportunity, um, to anyone that we've had those conversations internally to, to really relook at what Marriott stood for and, and to, and to be uh, in, in the right times with the right brand to develop this themselves and not buy another brand because there really wasn't anything out there. So it was a partnership with Ian Traeger. Um, I mean the amount of naysayers we had at the beginning of. Everybody said why, why'd you want to do this? We have a successful brand. You know, we do our food and beverage, we do our rooms. Uh, why do you need these expensive models? Heavy FMB focused big risks. Um, and uh, we were very, you know, we were very alone at that point in, in setting things up. And we uh, you know, we were given the freedom to, to set up this brand when we opened up the first one, uh, in London after you know, know two, two unsuccessful stories earlier on M. And then, but then once it was successful, I made m The amount of people that came to see us and say I was part of your story. And we, we just looked at, looked at a lot of people in, in, in Marriott's office and said we've never met. I don't know really what you, what you did or you were. I mean I was an operator. I wasn't uh, I wasn't part of the, the, the brand team. Um, but was right there when we set, set it up. But you know, it changed the perception and that, those are the conversations we had later on. It changed the perception of Marriott. I mean there were Marriott owners of you know, 50 to 100 hotels flying in to say hey, I've just come to see what, you know, what, what uh, what what it is that changed how um, my hotels are valued at. So uh, you know, I think if you, if you can change, if you can create a brand that really marks a difference for your total portfolio and what it does to the image of your, of your overall brand, I mean, go for it. But you know, but that was, this was in 2013, right, uh, after the brand already tried in something in 2010. I mean that's when IHG maybe had five, six brands. I mean it's 10 years down the line. Like Scott said, we don't know which brands fall under uh, which parent companies anymore. You could move them One between the other. But, um, I mean, it's a very different story from where I was at the time. But it made complete sense because everybody wanted to be part of, um, the luxury lifestyle sector at the time. And certain brands bought, you know, ihg bought Kimpton, um, because they weren't able to do it themselves. Uh, Hilton had failed. So I think Marriott at that time was really right to say we see a niche, but instead of doing something and buying it, let's do it ourselves.

Speaker A: So maybe, you know, timing was right with them. Maybe timing's right now for Hilton. It sounds like, you know, this might be, ah, an owner acquisition or owner retention, uh, sort of, sort of play here. Easier to kind of build these brands, uh, today in theory. Uh, maybe. Maybe it's easier to like, build a brand from the ground up, define it how Hilton wants to define it for the owner they're trying to sell the brand to versus you know, acquiring an existing brand. That might have connotations that these prospective owners like or dislike for, you know, a number of reasons. Sean, I want to go to you as the, as the author of, of the story here. Like, great, uh, piece. I want to talk about the name Tortoise too, by the way. Like, if that is the name, like, is this classic, like, I mean, it better be wellness focused, right? Like, it better be like, slow, and I'm gonna be like, be on a beach, hopefully. Like, they're not trying to target the F1 crowd or something, like with a name like Tortoise, but, like fascinating name. But we'll get that, we'll get to that in a second. But any additional detail or amusing you had on the story, maybe something that even like, didn't make the piece that you could share with us.

Speaker C: So I think big picture, I'm really struck that, you know, as we've been talking about earlier in the conversation, you know, the industry has sort of split. And so you have the people who own the real estate, you have people who are running the hotels, and then you have these brand groups. And supposedly they're, they're more than just a loyalty program. Supposedly they're really smart about ip, about the, uh, intellectual, uh, property. So what is the great new brand that any of them has developed since the pandemic? And I really struggle. One that is a hard brand. It's not a soft collection brand. It's not an extended stay at a lower price point. Um, they, you know, Hilton went for 16 years doing all of its brands in house, and then it's gone on a streak since then of buying, acquiring brands, um, creating soft brand collections and then they live smart would, uh, which is sort of like, um, uh, just an extended stay, sort of like one, one, one level down. So I feel like the brand factories, and I'm not just picking on Hilton, all of them, they're. This is supposed to be their specialty. That's what we've all set them up for. Why isn't the brand factory creating, you know, creative, like matching current, uh, demographics and current tastes, the niche things that we're talking about before the interest with, uh, you know, operational models that will work in scale. Why do they have to acquire out. Uh, and so I do think I do. I'm a little critical of all of them for not like leveling up their game on the brand factory aspect. Because I, uh, hear you, Scott, if you, you know it, I agree with you that you need a flowchart if you're thinking about it that way. But in a world of agenc AI where I'm just going to be surfaced increasingly by voice, I'm going to be talking to whatever this LLM powered, you know, whether it's social or whatever, my how I'm doing travel discovery, it's going to be because I follow this podcaster who loves X, you know, and they're going to surface. These are the three hotels that they like. I feel I relate to that. So I'm not going to face a million brands. It's not going to be a list of 10 pages of blue links how I'm going to find these brands. It's going to be much more tailored. And so these hotel groups really need to get. They need to level up about their brand game if that's what if IP is supposedly what they're so great at.

Speaker A: Benny, you look like you wanted to say something.

Speaker B: No, no, I'm good. I'm good. I'm excited for Spice of the Week, though. I'm excited for Spice of the Week for sure.

Speaker A: Yeah. And we'll get to that in one second. I love that last point, Shawna. I think that that is, that is clipworthy, right? It's like, like the people that you're, you know, that you're paying all of these royalties to, to come up with brands to attract the right consumer to your properties should be the best at creating these brands. And it does, it does feel like folks have gotten a little lazy in that respect. So I'm excited to see what comes of Tortoise. Um, I really hope we lean into it if that's the Name, like, I mean, it better be wellness, it better be slow focus. It better be beachy, right? Or like in the wilderness somewhere. I don't know, Ben. Maybe it should be a little Bay esque. Maybe Baya joins tortoise collection one day. Who knows, right? Could be a thing.

Speaker E: Never say no. You don't know what's coming up, pal.

Speaker A: Society just did it. Pali. Society just did it. Buy us next.

Speaker B: I guess the one thing I'll say is that, you know, Sean, I hear you. I also think that the big brands were built on reliability, consistency, uniformity and trust. Like that's what they're built on. On not unique, cool, like what people want today. So, um, I think it's a real challenge for them to evolve.

Speaker A: Well, we will see. We will see how they do. So, um, and we'll be along for the ride, commenting on every twist and turn. Uh, thanks to Sean's insights and reporting. So that we have something to talk about. Um, I want to go to Spice of the Week, gentlemen. So Spice of the week, folks, for. If you're tuning in for the first time because you just love Sean and you decided to check out this pod for the first time, Spice of the week is a time where we get to share a hot take. Something, uh, that's just on our mind. A DM that we got, uh, this week that we thought was interesting. Uh, really just an opportunity to give a quick little sign off before we wrap the pod. Ben, you said you're ready, so let's start with you. What is your Spice of the week?

Speaker B: So it's not super spicy. It's actually a bit heartwarming here for a change. Hey, I think the big winner of the World cup is the U.S. america's reputation abroad. I don't know if you guys are seeing this in your feeds, but it is like exploding with all of this love from Euros, other international people in the US saying how great America is. And like people, you know, you have Europeans raving about Buckeyes and Popeyes and like, uh, Buc ee's sorry, you know, from Texas obviously. That. Right, yeah. Uh, Buc ee's like massive Walmart sized gas station with, with you know, 100 pumps, right? And just like blowing their minds. And so, you know, I know that, that we probably like hotel room rates and stuff weren't where we wanted them to be. And maybe they didn't get the occupancy and all the rest, but I think the boon of international travel into the US based on, you know, just this reputation lift that we're seeing is going to do way more for. For us than, you know, the. The one time bump for the World Cup.

Speaker D: But. But can we. Can we like, add a plus one to that and say the real winner of the World cup is the goalie for Cape Verde? I mean, come on.

Speaker B: Followed closely by also the. The tartan army

Speaker E: and the orange. And the Orange army of the Dutch.

Speaker A: They're getting so much love.

Speaker B: Dude, did you see the. The bit about how I think they consumed triple the alcohol or beer than, like, you know, a St. Patrick's Day in Boston and I. We're talking like a number of people that does not move the needle in terms of Boston population. Like, that's just insane.

Speaker E: Who then still needed to watch a match. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A: Uh, yeah. I actually have a friend who, uh, owns a couple restaurants, uh, in Boston. And he's like, he's. They are all about it. Like, the restaurant industry is like, it's like having a moment. They have people coming to pubs that have never been to these pubs just to, like, see if they can run into these guys, right, Catch them drinking, have a beer with them. So I love it. I'm with you, Ben, too. My feed's been surprisingly positive. I don't know why I'm like, I hope I'm not, like, clicking on too many links that, you know, pull me in one direction or the other. But it does seem like a very positive m. Uh, m. Momentous, uh, event, despite all the, you know, hoopla that got us here. Edwin, let's go to you. Spice of the week, sir.

Speaker E: Yeah, so I had a different spice of the week, but I want to tag onto a bit. What Sean said that the, um, trend or the movement for membership clubs, um, how that's progressing. And that's one to watch. Um, I'm a member, a dedicated member of so House over a decade. Love him. Uh, seen the changes. Whether I agree or not, you know, it's not, I don't think, necessarily relevant for the discussion at the moment, but in all of our conversations about data and belonging and community. I was at Showhouse, uh, a couple of days ago and actually talked with an owner of three SO Houses about this. And he says, I can't get involved. But every time I go in and I sit down and I order the same. Almost the same thing for the last 10 years, if I'm daytime, it's a green tea. They asked me for my membership number and I have to show them. I don't show the number. I have to show my Card and that card, then the number gets written down with a pen or pencil on a waiter pad. And every time I sit there, I think, you know, when we talk about data collection and what you can do with it in 10 years, nobody's ever said, would you like your regular green tea? And I have the same green tea. Whether I go to New York, whether I go to Amsterdam, M. Wherever I go, what an opportunity missed. And when I addressed this with an owner who I work with, uh, for a different brand, but he owns three show houses, he says, yeah, I know, uh, but I don't get involved in this, so I love you. So house, but could you, you know, with all the things you do and the apps you have, the, the amount of opportunities, you know, and, and, and I mean, this is the kind of stuff I want to have in a restaurant or, or. Zach, when you go to Boston, you want to be recognized for your amenities for your third stay. But this is a membership club where, you know, you call it a house. Uh, you know, I'm there weekly. Um, the amount of opportunities you have to recognize the stuff that I order or the little touches, um, is, you, uh, know, it's a massive opportunity lost. So, um, house, if anybody's listening, could you just fix this? Because all you need to do is have a little scanner and, uh, have the data right there in front of you.

Speaker A: Scott, Spicy. Give us some spice. Give us some pepper.

Speaker D: No, no spice. But I found something super interesting, uh, yesterday. Uh, did you guys see a post that I did on LinkedIn about the Cipriani Hotel here in Venice? The Belmont? Of course you didn't, because you didn't comment on it. Um, so.

Speaker E: No, because you, you post 632 times a day.

Speaker A: So it's like a full, it's like

Speaker E: a full time job.

Speaker B: I need a new VA to keep up with Scott's.

Speaker A: I have a Claude agent. It just says like automatically, like everything Scott posts. I have no idea what you're talking about.

Speaker D: So listen to this. It's crazy. So the Chipriani Hotel here, Belmont Hotel lvmh, you know, sick hotel, insane. Did a site tour there yesterday and I was talking to one of the executives and they told me the craziest story that I still cannot believe. But it's true.

Speaker A: True.

Speaker D: When the original plans were being built or being put together with the architect, they designed the pool in feet. And when it came over to Europe, they translated it to meters. And now, happy mistake, they have the largest swimming pool at a hotel in Venice. And, and it's Love it. Stunning.

Speaker A: Beautiful.

Speaker D: But, like, what a happy mistake. Is that the craziest thing you've ever heard? I mean, the metric system. Who knew? But can you believe that?

Speaker E: Love it.

Speaker D: And you're talking ADR of like $1700 a night.

Speaker A: That's amazing. That's. That, That's a fantastic story, right?

Speaker B: You're giving the ideas of sneaking stuff in the budget.

Speaker A: Uh, there you go.

Speaker C: There you go.

Speaker B: Find somebody.

Speaker D: Just, Just throw a European in your. In the. And they'll mess everything up from feet to meters. Yeah.

Speaker A: Who'd have put the bill at the

Speaker B: end of the day, A bunch of finger pointing, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, I'll go and then I'll let, uh, Sean close us out here. Uh, so I was in San Antonio last week, as I've talked about five times now. Uh, so San Antonio, I was talking to the CEO of Hotel Emma. Incredible property there. I'll share that story for. I'll save that story for another time. But, but according to him, they're the only independent hotel right now in San Antonio. So there's a bunch of branded hotels, but it's, It's. It's only them in San Antonio now. Maybe he meant, like, at their caliber. I don't. I did not press him. I just, I didn't know. So I just trusted him. So, I don't know. Take this with a grain of salt. They're now building a second hotel that's also going to be independent. But I will say I was very impressed with San Antonio. Like, it, the. The vibe. I mean, it's stuck like, the. A lot. Like the Riverwalk, there were some parts, you know, whatever. But, like, it's, it's stunning. There's. There's water features everywhere. I was walking around, like, they've got the new district called, like, the Pearl District, relatively new district called, like the Pearl District or whatever. And it was happening. I mean, like, the run along the Riverwalk was incredible. The restaurant and bar scene, the hospitality was amazing. The hotel itself was just truly remarkable. And so I don't know enough about, you know, tourism in San Antonio, quite frankly, but it seemed like an opportunity for all my hotel developers. I'm like, wow, what? So I was like, you're the only independent hotel here. He's like, yeah, yeah. So I don't know, like, maybe give San Antonio a second look. It's also like, what, uh, Ben, like an hour and a half or so from Austin? Like, sure. Surely there has to be more. More happening there than maybe. I'm aware Of, But I will just say incredible place. Like the, the, the aesthetic everywhere you go is. It's just interesting. Right. Um, and, and it felt very. It felt like the first time I went to Santa Fe. It just felt like a very different place. Um, so anyways, that's all I have to say is go, go look at San Antonio. Go check me on my facts as well. But, uh, but yeah, I, I had, I had a wonderful time.

Speaker B: San Antonio, perennially underrated, it seems. I agree with you. It's underrated. I just don't know if it's ever going to change though. Spurs in the finals, they're going to be really good for the next 10 years on people down from Austin. You got, you got me thinking. And Hotel Emma is spot is really nice. So, um, they're doing it right. I'm glad they got a new hotel going up.

Speaker A: Yeah. Sean, close us out with spice of the week.

Speaker C: Uh, my spice of the week. You know, Zach, you, you previously had one like Airbnb should buy Turo. You know, I think Microsoft with LinkedIn should get into travel. I think it should partner on the, with a business travel company like Amex or Navon, uh, as a travel management company and try to think about how you could connect the data that you have in there. So if I'm planning a business trip, I'm going to Dallas and I want to know not, not just who is based there, but based on their social media comments, who's actually going to be in town at that point, uh, or how to, uh, how to sort of like increase. So whether it's a prospecting or planning, but you already have a base and you could do what Uber and Expedia are sort of doing. If you are on a premium tier membership, get a discount on buying travel through LinkedIn. I think there's potential there.

Speaker A: Oh, I would love to riff on that idea with you. Uh, that's awesome. That is spicy. I think you win. Ah, Sean, for Spicies of the Week. Uh, but we should definitely talk about that another time. But it's been such a pleasure having you. Sean. Thank you for taking time to join us this week out of your busy schedule. Thank you for your great reporting and uh, all the folks at Skiff that do such a good job at helping cover the industry that we all love. It's been a true honor to have you here, man.

Speaker C: Thanks so much guys for having me.

Speaker E: I really enjoyed this.

Speaker C: Long time listener, first time co people. Thank you guys. Keep up. Good luck.

Speaker E: Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker A: Of course we'll have to have you on again soon. All right, guys, gentlemen, thank you for, uh, joining me on this week in Hospitality. This week and every week. If you are a new listener to the show, be sure to hit subscribe. Follow Comment do all the things that every podcaster tells you to do that you usually don't. But do it this time for us, please. Okay, do it for Sean, do it for Sean. Uh, do it for the World cup. Right? Uh, let's all come together, let's all fall in love with the pod and, uh, let's just do one nice thing with, with the like button this week. All right, guys, thanks for the time. We will see you soon. Thanks for joining us this week. If any part of today's conversation sparked an idea or helped you think differently about the industry, we'd love to continue the conversation. You can find each of the us on LinkedIn, on X, on Instagram, or whatever your preferred social platform of choice is. Links to all of our profiles are in the show notes below. This week in Hospitality is presented by Journey. Journey is a loyalty platform built specifically for independent boutique hotels and high touch hospitality brands. Our mission is to give operators the same powerful rewards engine, data, intelligence and guest insights that major chains rely on without asking them to give up the individual, the soul and the story that makes their property so exceptional. At a moment when travelers are craving unique, meaningful experiences and operators are navigating rising OTA costs, fragmented data and shifting expectations, Journey provides a unified ecosystem that strengthens guest relationships, increases direct bookings, and helps independent properties thrive on their own terms. We're building a global curated alliance of exceptional hotels, villas and residences, a network that rewards exploration, empowers individuality, and gives independence the scale that they deserve. If you're an owner or operator of an extraordinary independently owned and operated hotel or residence, and if you want to see whether your property is a fit for the Journey alliance, you can learn more and apply@alliance.journey.com all right, friends, we'll see you next Friday. Until then, keep building experiences that are worth remembering.

Speaker C: You.