102. How to work with company data - Pietari Suvanto (Vainu)

Speaker A: That's the number one mistake in my view is that those companies that have the mindset of data will make us better. In these KPIs, they typically succeed and they will transform their organization also working based on data. And then there is some other types of organization are just that we need to do something, our KPIs are going down, let's buy some data. And then it just is somewhere in the CRM or somewhere nothing happens. And they said hey, this data didn't work when they so. So data is just a tool to transform your organization. It's not a silver bullet as such. And I think that mindset is very common mistake. A lot of people do.

Speaker B: Welcome to the podcast B2B SaaS CEOs with me, Joseph Olson as your host. I'm um, the CEO and founder of VAM that helps salespeople to book more meetings by automating personalized video with LinkedIn, email and phone seamlessly in the same tool. The idea to this podcast was born because one of my personal goals is to be a world class B2B SaaS CEO and therefore I need to learn from the best and I want to take you with me on this journey.

Speaker A: Hi, my name is Pieter Esubanto, uh, CEO and co founder at Vyno and you're listening to B2B SaaS CEOs.

Speaker B: Hi and ah, welcome. Piatare.

Speaker A: Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here. Pleasure to be here.

Speaker B: How are you today?

Speaker A: I'm very good. The sun is shining, it's very warm here and yeah, Q2 is one of the best times to be like in a sales organization. So the sales are doing good so let's, yeah, everything is good.

Speaker B: Amazing. And let's jump straight into it then. First thing first, who is Pietary? Please tell me and the listeners how you look at yourself.

Speaker A: Yeah, how I look at myself. Yeah, I'm a 40 um, year old living in Helsinki and uh, yeah, entrepreneur now for 10 years more or less. So I just counted. That's almost as much as I've been sleeping during my life. So yeah, that's more or less me what I do outside company data. I actually training for some running events this summer and um, yeah, enjoying life in general.

Speaker B: Congratulations to a decade of uh, being an entrepreneur.

Speaker A: Yeah, thank you, thank you. There's a lot of, lot of different events along the way. I can say that.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, amen to that. And if we move forward then to uh, the elevator pitch, what does your company Vinu do?

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good question. So what we do is we collect company data, company and contact data through all kinds of different uh, methods. We have a very big team, almost 40 people in our R and D. Then when we collect that data mainly from the Nordics, we productize that for different purposes. Sales and marketing being maybe the biggest. Then like the data enrichment in CRMs such as like Salesforce, HubSpot Dynamics and so forth. So that's second use case and then third use case is we sell that data to data teams that utilize our data on top of uh many other data sets and create their own data models. That's typically like enterprise type of use case there. So yeah that's what we do. We have um 1,000 customers around uh, in the Nordics, uh I would say 50% in Finland and the rest in other parts of the uh Nordics.

Speaker B: And a follow on question then I actually before this uh interview I literally it was like five minutes before you jump in here, I talked with one of my customers and partners and told the person that I'm going to interview you and ah, Joseph, great. Ask him what's the difference is between why no and competitor X. And I don't need to say any competitor but yes, following question here. What would you say are the main differences between you and other sales data tools out there?

Speaker A: Yeah, the sales enablement space is uh quite big. I could if looking at from a uh perspective uh competitors. One part is these global competitors such as like Apollo zooming for communism. That's like one piece, they're very fully focused on contact data. And then there is the other part is local players.

Speaker B: Uh it was one of the global players that this person referred to. So take that angle.

Speaker A: Yeah, okay, I can take that angle. So first of all data business in general you need to be locally very savvy to understand. So where we differ compared to these global players, first of all we see it so that you need to have, you need to know the company you contact and then you need to know the contact you will reach out to. So we know all the companies into Nordics. So first of all your ICP and then we have the contacts on top of it. The global players they don't have a good understanding of the company data and how they collect contacts. That is also uh, a little bit different from uh, uh what we do. And then the third aspect of it is if you have a CRM that's where we are very very strong at. So everything that you want to find the companies and contacts we can mirror them almost one to one to Your CRM so you can automate your sales place directly from there. And that is not something that other players can do in the extent that what we, we are able to. So those. Yeah. So those, those mainly then there's a lot of details of course, but let's not go into those.

Speaker B: Good. Thank you. We continue to a, uh, segment I call five Quick ones. And now Piotr, you need to be quick. I will throw up a word or sentence. And the first thing here. Do you understand?

Speaker A: Yes and no explanation. Only word.

Speaker B: You can say a sentence, like with two sentences, but not too long explanation. So here we go. Sales or marketing?

Speaker A: My background is in sales, so I need to go with that.

Speaker B: So sales, office or remote?

Speaker A: I used to be more remote, but these days I'm more office because that's where the results are made together. And uh, that can only happen in the office.

Speaker B: Your favorite social media.

Speaker A: That is. It's not LinkedIn. Uh, it is Instagram actually. So I think that's a good place to follow all kinds of things.

Speaker B: Okay. Uh, we'll come back to that soon. Okay. Interesting. Mid enterprise or large enterprise deals?

Speaker A: I would. Mid enterprise is nicer because the ticket sizes are big enough, but the pace is uh, something that I'm familiar with as well.

Speaker B: And the last one. Who's your role model in business?

Speaker A: Huh? That's a good one. I would really need to put it the. If I may call it unknown soldier. So all the entrepreneurs that are not in the limelight, so I think they deserve, they are really my role models, to be frank.

Speaker B: Okay. Several interesting things here. Sales or marketing. That was, I heard and I can understand quite tough one for you. But uh, it was basically for like your past. You showed sales or.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, yeah, that's the main reason. I think looking from my perspective or our perspective, I think what is great about marketing these days and B2B marketing in general, it is something, uh, specifically with data sets like us, you can automate a lot of things and make a lot of predictable things. So that's what I like. Figures a lot. So that's what I like about marketing a lot. Then on the other hand, I think in the end if you want to close the deal, there's a huge difference uh, on the person doing the sell. So I think marketing can catch you very close. But in the end the deal is done by selling sales. So that's why I need to go with, with sales.

Speaker B: And uh, office or remote? You said you have preferred remote or light remote before, but now Back to office and also offices where quote the real results happen. Can you please elaborate? What makes you think in this way?

Speaker A: Yeah, so we are as a company, we are like we want to have good offices. We, we do a lot of office events but we still give the opportunity for uh, people to work in the office or remote. So it's. But, but what we see specifically following the sales narrative, it's sales and results. Uh, it's a lot about working together like sparring things and you know, the office vibe affects a lot to the results. So that's why specifically now when we want to be good at sales, I want to be at the office as much as possible as well.

Speaker B: So basically for uh, what you said and also the energy and hype each other up and pep each other.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Our development team, there's only a few people that are in the office. Most of them work remotely and that seems to work for them very well because I understand also the amount of disturbance there can be uh, in the office. So it's a productive way for them as well. So we give options for both.

Speaker B: And I must ask now Instagram, like the classical would be LinkedIn, but why is it from a private perspective or is it that's like you like in business also Instagram.

Speaker A: Yeah, actually I. So my last post in Instagram is two years ago. So it's not like you are a director. Yeah, I'm just the classical stalker. So. But what I do, I actually don't friend. I don't follow like um, a lot of like people necessarily. I follow like media and uh, things like this. And it's a, it's a good way to be uh, it's a good way to follow things that are important for you and specifically like the media part. Yeah, So I follow like please don't take it but like you know, Economist, you know, Foreign Affairs, New York Times, stuff like this and it's a, you know, at least what you can get out of it is that, yeah, there's a picture in one sentence and then you can refer it to I read from Economist this and that and. Or you've just seen a post from uh, Instagram with the one sentence and people think you're quite smart. So I think that's a good way at least if nothing but I've clicked the articles as well so it's okay.

Speaker B: Smart, smart. Okay. And regarding mid enterprise or large enterprise, is it that you that your customers are mostly work in the mid enterprise or is it, is it basically that your personal opinion is that you like the speed compared to the bigger ticket, but more complex setup.

Speaker A: Yeah. So how I understood the question, if we're talking about large enterprise, I thought about like, bigger than half a million euro ACV and the mid enterprise is like between 50 and €100,000 ACV.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: Ah, so that's what I was thinking. So, yeah, if you want to really want to do the whales, it takes a lot of time and you need to, like, be persistent. I'm a more of. I need. I need results very quickly to keep myself motivated. So that's why the 50 to €150,000 range is perfect for me, because you can get fairly quick if you're able to. Able to sort of give the value value, and then it's still significant. So it can affect the numbers.

Speaker B: So I think that's okay. You like the one month to 12 months and not the nine months to two years.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. We had this Nordic Bank. The lead time was, I think it was, to be frank, eight years. Yeah. But it finally came. And not even the biggest of the biggest size, but significant deal. But yeah, eight years. It's been like. I can't even count how many meetings we've had. So, yeah. Oh, wow.

Speaker B: Okay. And then the last thing, uh, Euromodel, shout out to the unknown soldiers out there, all the hustlers, the go getters, the doers, then who do the. To do the work that everybody knows of, but don't maybe reach media.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, I mean, I think all the other people that made it big, they get a lot of attention. As I said, During 10 years of entrepreneur, I've seen it when it goes extremely well. I've seen it when it's not going too well. And I can definitely, I would put it like this, that it's much easier when it goes very well. So, I mean, those who struggle for 20, 30 years, they make their living being an entrepreneur and then, you know. Yeah, I need to really give a shout out for them because it's a job to do.

Speaker B: And if we move forward then to the big. Why. Why did you and your co founders start Bino?

Speaker A: That's a good question. I think. So we were like the forerunners, I would say, in the sales enablement space. That name, the space wasn't even defined then. But, uh, I think it started from the pure need. Me and Mikko, uh, the other active founder, we were working for this Swedish SARS company, or actually Norwegian SARS company, and doing a lot of sales. And we saw that it takes a lot of Time to prospect, find the right reasons, uh, to call. But in the end, it's a very structured and reputable, uh, process as such. So, hence it's easy to put into a product. Then we asked for a third person who is these days, like, only an owner, uh, to think of how we could build it into a product. And then we did. So that's really out of the need, more or less. I would say that we started off. And the other part of it, at least myself personally, I've always felt that I've been entrepreneurial, and I always knew that someday I will be, uh, an entrepreneur in a way or another. So it was a good time to set it up.

Speaker B: Was it a need? Was it a need for you and Mikko in your daily work yourself, or was it that you see people around you like, hm, we can help them, or did you want to help you?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, yeah, definitely it was helping ourselves, uh, because we've been doing it. We've been doing the prospecting and, you know, all that stuff. So quite a long time already back then. So if we would have had a tool like what we have now, we would definitely would like to buy it. So let's put it on there.

Speaker B: I love all these stories. Uh, I'm obviously biased because this is a story of me and coming up with the idea of them and founding it, et cetera. But, yeah, solve your own problem because you, most likely you are not too special yourself, and then others will have similar.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And it was, uh, the first three formats, so we didn't even have a product for the first four months. And we were able to close 10 deals without the product, actually. And it was a funny way of selling a SaaS tool when they asked for a demo and then trying to wiggle yourself out of it. That. Yeah, it's not part of our sales process. We saw the product just yet.

Speaker B: Did they also pay or at least got invoice before they got it, or how did that set up?

Speaker A: The other pitch was that you will get the access in August and then the invoice will be sent. So in Q2, 2014. Yeah, you know, did those sales. And then we said that it's in August, you'll get the access and you'll get the invoice. And, yeah, we were able to. Yeah, 10 deals with that as well. It was good. Yeah.

Speaker B: Okay, so you have, uh, not the loe. You had the signed deal, but invoice was coming once they got access.

Speaker A: Exactly, exactly.

Speaker B: Good. Fair deal. Fair, fair. Nice. And you have been in this space now for a decade. You have uh, seen so much data successes, but also mistakes. And I'm super curious to hear now in Brave pq and I think we will stay here a while. What are common mistakes you and Binas in that companies do regarding B2B company data? Yeah, the big ones like really help me and other listeners now avoid things regarding the space of B2B company data.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I think so how we see it, uh, is that first of all, I think company data as such, it's not a silver bullet that will transform uh, you know, businesses just like that. So it's just data. But I think the whole idea is that what do you do with the data? And I guess that's the number one mistake in my view is that those companies that have the mindset of data will make us better in these KPIs, they typically succeed and they will transform their organization also working based on data. And then there is some other types of organization are just that we need to do something, our KPIs are going down, let's buy some data. And then it just is somewhere in the CRM or somewhere nothing happens. And they said hey, this data didn't work. So data is just a tool to transform your organization. It's not a silver bullet as such. And I think that mindset is very common mistake. A lot of people do. One might argue that that's also our job to try to convince them to transform as well. But changing as a organization, we've been doing it as well. It's not an easy job to do. So you need to be very persistent on that. So I think that is maybe the biggest mistake. Uh, uh, one would say, I think

Speaker B: okay, so we have approximately is one mistake then that all about mindset. And you said the first thing was that they have that mindset and work. And the second topic you said is basically that they don't have the mindset and just want to have a silver quick bullet. And there is one.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So let's dive down here then if so we can just do a check mark. So the listeners now feel that I'm on the quote good side. Uh, what, what are typical like if working uh, with in the right way sales and marketing data. Can you please give me some, let's say the playbook or like the checklist. What would you say is a simple checklist to follow that? Okay, we are in a good setup.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean if we. Let's start from the assumption that the company has tools in order, you know, the CRM and the marketing automation tools and all these things are aligned. So we put it into three different like sort of steps you need to do very well. So I think the first thing is that you need to understand your ideal customer profile, meaning that where do you want to contact? Which companies are you targeting to? There's very many ways of understanding that. But uh, first understand that. Then when you know the company you're contact, then you need to know the contact you will reach out to. So who is your buyer Persona and then you understand that. So that first, the uh, first step is to understand the right company. Then understand who is your buyer Persona, who is the contact. And then we have the third which is understanding the right timing or the reason to contact. And when you have these so the right company, the right contact and the right reason aligned, then that is very easy to be built into all the processes that you work in marketing and sales and such. And what is also very good about it, it's very, you can backtrack it very easily. You can see different conversion rates in different segments and so forth. And then it gives you consistent data which you can then improve. But the first, I mean you have the mindset in order. I think the number one thing is to understand those three things. So the right company, the right contact you contact to the person and then the right reason, reason to contact why you are actually contacting. So, so that's, that's how I would start. When you are in the right, right side of the uh, companies I would say.

Speaker B: And, and would you say I'm, I'm just thinking out loud for myself now. If you nailed number one and number two on that data list, are you still quite okay then you can like you don't be super specific in time the timing very well. If you know the ICP and the Persona or would you say all three is necessary to really have found a super growth?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean let's, if the uh, starting point is you have nothing that, I mean you have just random data all over the place. You know, each step of the way improves the process. So if you, you know, you start with understanding companies you contact and you have nothing else, that's, that's a start again. Then when you know the contact and you have that information that improves even further. And then third one it will improve even further. So each step sort of improves the process bit by bit by bit.

Speaker B: And now I'm going to be super self centric. Uh, but I can, because this is my podcast regarding the third step. If you know the ICP and you have the one target, how do you work regarding the timing the third step down in the funnel?

Speaker A: Uh, so then. Well there's different ways. I mean best way is actually now if I may advertise something we'll be launching end of the year is so uh ability to spot the change in decision maker with our contact data set. So let's say you would hire a CFO and then our system would spot that hey there's a new CFO in place. It's a great sales opportunity for many, many. So there's a lot of different uh changes that always indicate that there will be some sales opportunities. It's typically decision maker change is a very very clear one. Then there is like, like these big funding rounds different if somebody is going international or if there is even this negative trend such as layoffs, things like this. Those different changes in organization always indicate that they need services of some sort and we identify with our customers then that uh, what of these changes are relevant for them. But I can say that change in decision maker is an opportunity for everyone or a risk if it's your own customer because it can, you know there's around. So those kinds of, those kinds of things would work for you. And we've done some uh exercises with bigger enterprises in backtracking sort of our. We put our data and their sales data uh and seeing that has there happened when there has been something some events spotted from our system has it affected in their sales. And there is quite nice correlation that can be found in very many cases.

Speaker B: Nice. And yeah I'm checking the schedule and now it's actually time for an external question. The first one of two. We have two today and the first one is from Hampus Rules and Crowns at gvomedia and this is his question.

Speaker A: Hi Petori, what would you say are three classic challenges that stand in the way of success for smaller businesses and how would you tackle those challenges? If I may give an umbrella term. I think small business owner or starting uh entrepreneurs biggest challenge is that they feel they take responsibility on everything and everyone and that creates too much stress and that creates the outcome is that you really cannot see the forest from the trees as such. So I think that's. I would say that as a main thing maybe so if looking at those three so maybe yeah not seeing the forest from the trees I think is a very typical one. I uh think as a small entrepreneur you should always focus on talking to customers as much as you want and everything else is Secondary then I think the other one is that specifically if you have like employees it's uh, typically that you might carry the burden of everything and that creates too much stress. I think that is the second one. And a stressful entrepreneur is stressful company I would say. And maybe the third thing is that ability to kill your darling. So I think it's a great distinction is to uh, understanding the difference uh between giving up and letting go that it's not giving up if you let some projects go. I think that is also a very, very important aspect to understand to be able to. Not to be overstressed because that won't help any cause those I would, that I would. I don't know if there were one or two or three or four but I think those, those kinds of.

Speaker B: Yeah, I, from what I heard it at least maybe I would re. Listen or the listeners were like no you are, you two are wrong. But as I heard it you gave uh, three examples and you also answered them what you think Humpus or anyone else would do. So check, check on the external question number one, I would say Humpus, thank you for the question and Piotr for the input. We move on to the second and last external question and this is from Sebastian Levin at Startup Coaching and this is his question. Hi Piatori, what is the latest customer insight that made a difference in your business?

Speaker A: Yeah, that's actually a good question. This can be a very detailed uh, thing but it is actually quite significant. Uh, uh, there was this one customer, uh, bigger customer that explained in a very thorough way why a company address and only the street address should be separated into was it six different columns as a. So that the street, street is different, the street number is different, the floor, the floor is different and the floor indication is all these little details in the single, single cells and how they explain it why it is business critical for them. I think that was a great aha moment for me because that very detailed thing had a huge business impact and it's easy. It gave me like, how do you say, like encouragement to uh, express why our data and our data model is better than the competitors. So that really, I mean I don't know if it sounds that amazing but it really, I mean it's really significant that the data can be that the data granularity if it's a business critical data uh, is very important that that's something that not very many providers in the Nordic can do.

Speaker B: Uh Sebastian, thank you for an interesting question leading to this answer and let's talk about Lead generation. And now for you, I'm curious, what has been not the most but the best lead generator for. For vinyl for the last six months?

Speaker A: Yeah, so for the last six months. Uh, so we launched a new. Whole new product really like a year ago or something. Then we've been launching new stuff along the way and now we launched the contacts on top of our. And they're definitely, I think the best lead generator is. Yeah, social media. I think we are able to gain pretty good traction from you know, putting out there what we have, why it's important. We have very active. Our people working for a while is very active in social media. So that has generated a lot of uh, awareness and a lot of leads for. For us.

Speaker B: Uh, so basically, basically social selling then?

Speaker A: Yeah, you could say. Yeah, yeah, social selling in the sense that. Yeah, yeah, you could say social selling. Just buzz and you know, uh, LinkedIn

Speaker B: or other social media.

Speaker A: LinkedIn. Yeah, LinkedIn. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B: Interesting. And organic then. Not, not like paid in LinkedIn.

Speaker A: Organic. Organic like our. We have a very. Yeah, it's. We have a. Partners like consultancies, HubSpot partners who talk about it a lot and the people. Us vinyl people, we talk about it a lot and then also some other people around talk about it a lot. So I'm pretty confident that most of our ideal, uh, customers, uh, know about our new productization today and I think it's mission accomplished, I would say.

Speaker B: I know too. I heard it also from many different.

Speaker A: Exactly, exactly.

Speaker B: Okay. And let's talk about Amphitari outreach. One of my favorite topics. And now I'm curious to hear your preferred way of being. Not how you do it of being contacted of salespeople and not like I want to be this. I want to go detail here. Like what did the salesperson, uh, the last salesperson who actually managed to book a meeting with you or sell to you. How did they do outreach to you?

Speaker A: M. Yeah. Well, to be frank, the first of all I need to say I don't do too many like decisions in terms of like buying stuff in the. It's, it's. It's. It's always somebody else but maybe just

Speaker B: reaching through the noise and get referred to the right colleague of yours then.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So I mean, let's, let's put it this way. If this. So what makes me interested, it's relief. Somebody has really thought through the process sort of. I feel that it's tailored and somebody said this is why, uh, why you should ah, listen to me or why we should book a meeting, and it resonates with something that, that, that, that is happening in the company. So, So I think, uh, that that will land a meeting with, with somebody in Binu for sure. I need to say I don't get that many sales calls, actually. I think our people, the HR and finance and marketing, I think they, they get it quite a lot, but I don't that much. So I don't know. I don't know the reason for it. Maybe they know that I, I am not the one to make any decisions. So.

Speaker B: Yeah, at the scale you are, you are. You are almost 100 people. It's. It's most likely more relevant than, uh, to go to one of your closest colleagues that. That is head of that department.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And that's. I mean, if I would never do a decision on anything related to finance, anything to people, anything to marketing. I mean, they, they do the decision, and then Sami, our cfo, he looks if there's money. So I'm just. If the Amer, um, the marketing head of marketing says he wants this and Sami says, yeah, we have money, I have nothing to say.

Speaker B: Good. Okay. And, uh, we have entered the last questions, the roundup, and first, uh, thing here, Hack. What's your best time management hack right now?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think I learned this, actually. It was one of my first jobs, like 15 years ago, and it was, they said focus on focus. So it's what I do always is I just focus what is relevant and forget about everything else. And when you have that mindset, actually you have quite a lot of time, to be frank.

Speaker B: Nice. Second last question then. Can you share one of your favorite life mottos?

Speaker A: Yeah. It's a long story behind it, but it was this one politician who said that, do the best today, think about tomorrow, and dream about future. So I think having those three things in mind, not two, not one, but all three, I think that's when you're the best version of yourself every day.

Speaker B: I like that. And the very last thing then and now you're talking to your younger self. If you would give the top one to three things to think of that you now know that you didn't know eight or 10 years ago, what would you tell yourself?

Speaker A: Yeah, well, I would say that things take time. I think that is. That is the number one thing that impatience is not always a virtue. I would always flip it around. I mean, I would think that what would the young me say to the old me? I think there would be a lot of good advice also from 10 years back to me but yeah, I don't know. But yeah. Now I would say to younger me that things take time. That's a good way to look at it.

Speaker B: That's a good spin. I've asked this question now, uh, more than 100 times because, yeah, you are episode 102 and you're the first one say. What would Yang me say to me like, oh, yeah, I like it.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, that's a good way to look at it as well.

Speaker B: Are you still doing the right things that made you come here? Are you still doing that? Or have you been fat and happy along the road?

Speaker A: Uh, yeah, I can say this is a company and a job that you cannot be fat and happy. It's if, if I feel fat and happy, then I know that I'm not doing my job. So I mean, if everything is good, then I find some, something that is not correct and then I put my head around it. So always something is wrong when you're in this position. I think that's the only way how to do it.

Speaker B: And with these words, I'm now shifting the focus to you who has been listening. Two quick ones. Number one, if you got some sort of value here from Piatori, don't be selfish. Tell a friend or tell a colleague to listen to him in B2B Saucios. And thing number two, if you like what you heard, press the subscription button. We have great guests coming here every week. And Piotr, thank you for taking the time to help me and the SaaS community to keep on learning.

Speaker A: Thank you very much. Was a pleasure.