Want to be CMO? Start with Soft Skills

Your B2B Marketing Pint is the podcast for B2B technology marketers who want to sharpen their competitive edge. Joined by other marketing veterans, your hosts Brian o' Grady and Brendan Ziolo share expertise on what works today and why. Grab a cold pint of hot takes on branding, content marketing, demand generation and more. Served with a side of sarcasm. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening everyone, and welcome to the latest B2B marketing pint. Definitely looking forward to this episode because we've had some technical difficulties, some laughs already, so we still have saved the best for last. Or so I hope. Brian, my co host, Brian. This is going to confuse the hell out of me, but introduce us to the other Brian, please. I would love to introduce you to the other Brian for simplicity's sake. I can be bog. Short for Brian o' Grady is what they used to call me when the other Brian. That's Brian Stoller on your screen, ladies and gentlemen, when we used to work together, we all had to come up with different names for the different Brian's we worked with to keep the confusion to a minimum. But who the heck is this Brian Stoller you're looking at on your screen? Well, this is the kind of Brian Stoller who's had just about every seat in a marketing organization you can have that ranges from agencies to startups to Fortune 50s. You've been a fractional CMO, I think, Brian, and now you're a Chief marketing officer at VentureBeat. Back in the day we knew each other at IBM and you were actually my boss there in the performance marketing team you managed north of $120 million and crazy cast of characters in New York City built yourself a big demand team there. It was a lot of fun. And you still talk to me even though we work together, which is really cool. So thanks for that. And one point I should make is we have a shared trauma on the podcast today. Brendan and Brian o', Grady, that's me. We are Ottawa Senators fans, as both of our longtime listeners know. Mr. Stoller here is from Philadelphia, making him a Flyers fan. And our teams suffered the exact same fate in the playoffs this year at the hands of the Carolina Hurricanes. A pox upon them. So we're not going to talk much about hockey if we we can avoid it. Instead we're going to talk about how marketers out there who are ambitious in the B2B space can end up in your seat, Brian. That CMO seat. So welcome to the pint. What are you sipping today? You told Me, there would be no hockey talk. So sorry. But I'm glad I did. I brought an entire bucket of beer to drown my sorrows in. Who knew it would take this long for someone to bring a bucket of beer to the podcast? Well, I think he's the first guy from Philadelphia we've had. That could explain it right there. Yeah, all right, fair enough. But I am. I am drinking Heineken today and part of that is due to my own lack of time management skills, which are not going to get into in terms of how a good CMO is skillset. A good CMO should have. But Bog was kind enough to send me a case of Heineken, which is my father in law's favorite beer. So I will dedicate this podcast to my father in law. Fantastic. Yeah. So, Brandon, what are you drinking? So I am as again, our loyal listeners know I don't drink alcohol anymore, so drinking a non alcohol variety. But I may have found the perfectly named beer for a podcast. It's called no Filter. So I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing for the podcast and I'm super worried I brought it to this episode, but we'll see where that goes. So this is a Harman no Filter. Non Hazy ipa or sorry, Hazy ipa. Not the non part. Things are definitely getting hazy. Yeah, like the microphone on the label. Oh, that's true. Oh, look at this is like. This is the Harmon sponsor us. Okay, how can we not now? But, but, but, but Bog's the only one with the microphone. It's true. I'm clearly on a podcast. You can see I'm talking into the beer microphone. Bog, what are you drinking? I brought what I consider the second best beer on planet Earth today. It's a Czech bar from. I think I can call it Czech Republic. I know the country name changes a little bit, but they make great beer. Whatever you call the country and the people are good people. That's my fave for the day. Should we talk marketing? Well, since apparently hockey is off the table because we don't want Stoller to have to go buy another bucket of beer, I'm going to kick us off with the first marketing question then. So, based on the intro and our pre brief, Brian, I know you have held various marketing roles in various organizations from startups to SaaS to media to enterprises. I'm sure I've missed a few in between. With that varied background, what do you see as the difference between? Or what does a strong marketing leader need to be ready for the CMO role. Well, when I find a strong marketing leader, I'll let you know, Present company not included. Yeah. And all, and all of our listeners, please don't be offended. No, the, the, you know, you're right. I always prided myself on having lots of experiences. So whether it was agency world where I got to expose myself to branding components with Chanel or American Express, or business elements with hsbc, and even over at IBM where you know, it was more performance marketing, understand the data and the data driven decisions that go behind marketing. I really think that while experience is important and giving yourself that well rounded element, you know, even in my current role here at VentureBeat where I'm on the publisher side, right. So I've been able to see the advertising agency side, the client side at IBM and then the third leg of the stool, if you will, inside in the publisher side while having all those experiences really do prepare me for being that, that marketing leader. It's the soft skills that I actually think make a big, big difference in becoming that strong. I'm gonna use the air quote, strong marketing leader. And by soft skills I mean, you know, when you're leading people it really comes down to like understanding who's, what their strengths are. You know, when Bog and I work together, I recog that he was a very, very talented search engine marketing person. And so everything I defaulted to you is when a question came up about search, SEM, SEO, where do we go? It was always bring the expert in, make sure the expert has a seat at the table, make sure you listen to them too. And I think that part of those soft skills are listening. And that takes a lot of practice, I hope. Sorry to interrupt, Mr. Stoller, did you say you actually listened to me? Back in the day we worked together, you actually taught me more than you because the ability to recite things that you hear, maybe another marketing skill. But to be able to listen in, understand, connect the points and then be able to go back to senior leadership or back to another client and give them the feedback and the understanding. So a lot of it is just taking things in and listening, but also in a team setting. And I think that part of being a strong leader is being a team, sort of understanding the dynamics of a team. The strengths and weaknesses, your own weaknesses, the weaknesses of people on the team, the strengths of people on the team and playing to those strengths and weaknesses. I was going to say, I hope my wife doesn't listen to this because I'm interested. Yeah, well, you know, my wife and I Apart from all of the marketing roles that I've played, my wife and I actually own a little brick and mortar store and we sell furniture and she mostly does all the work. I will give her credit for doing all the work. She's the brainchild behind that. But, you know, when we get together, she is very much a independent contributor in terms of how she operates. And so I look at her, she's got her own marketing firm as well, by the way. She's got her own little PR firm, which she's doing very, very well. She's got some great clients, but she'll never rise to the cmo. Sort of like, you know, taking on a larger, larger responsibility because she's very much operates as an independent contributor. And even in our little store, getting consensus, you know, finding consensus around what is the right way that we should be approaching a weekend sale or an E Commerce push. Right. And those are the sorts of things that like, you know, she. She gets frustrated very quickly and kind of pushes me aside. Sounds like an entrepreneur. Well, working with your spouse is probably a little bit different, but, you know, it's the same idea. It's like, you know, it's. It's understanding. You know, if you. To become the leader of a Fortune 500 or a large organization or international company, there's an element of really understanding the people that you're working with and listening to them and having those soft skills. I mean, you guys both run agencies. I'm sure you've got experiences where you've seen good leaders, bad leaders, specifically in how they operate. I've been both, depending on the day. But I'm sure you can relate to some of the ideas of having those good soft skills in terms of leadership. Yeah. And I think it's also maturity or as your career progresses. Because I know when I look back, I see this too. Your point around hiring experts, listening to experts, having them in the room. Sometimes people aren't confident enough to, you know, hire those people in the first place, bring them in, et cetera. But it pays massive dividends as you grow your career, your agency, your program, your marketing, all of that stuff, Right. Like, you gotta listen, you gotta do that. So I can totally relate to that and look back at how my thinking or approach there has probably evolved through the years. I'll say, Brian, you may have answered the part of this already with the soft skills. So I'm going to poke at it because the marketers who are listening, probably a number of them have a vested interest in how do I get to be where Mr. Stoller is here, the CMO title. And I don't think that job has gotten any smaller, any easier in recent years. If I go through a very short list of what it touches. You know, you mentioned brand. There's demand, there's alignment with sales, there's product, there's investor relations, there's analyst relations, there's data now there's mops, operations, all of it, all of it ends up under that purview and more. And it's unlikely that any one person is going to have all of the skills to do all of that. So is there one for the people who are listening, who want to sit where you're sitting? What's the most common weakness or gap? You see, if someone's trying to make that leap from where they, where they are now to the chair you're in right now, is there a common gap? Is there one that's the biggest one that could be addressed or not? It's a good question. Yeah. I mean, having a little bit of understanding of everything and again, knowing your weakness, knowing when to put the right person forward, hiring, to Brennan's point, hiring people who are stronger than you in the skills where you know you're weak. Right. That's all important. But if you were. If it's going to go down the list of the things you just identified, the one that stood out, as you said it was sales alignment. That is the. And that's part of the listening component. Right. We talk about wanting to be the voice of the customer and putting the customer first and all of that. Right. But the sales guys talk to the customers or talk to the clients as well. And so I find. And what I've really had to hone in practice was, was building the relationship with the salespeople, understanding what it is that they need, especially in B2B marketing, because the sales guys are on the front line and they're hearing the problems. You know, they've got issues with their pipelines. Right. So, Brian, you might remember we. I did my little. Our little Subway charts. Do you remember at IBM we did the Subway charts? I do. And we would map everything from brand awareness through performance marketing components. So what are the different tactics that are driving into the landing page and then continuing after the lead was created? The lead gets passed over and goes into Salesforce or whatever system the sales guys are using. But continuing to map that and understanding where in the sales pipeline is the salesperson falling down? Is it at the contract stage, is it earlier? And then really leaning in and Saying, how can marketing help you with that component? It's not all about painting pretty ads and doing branding and all. There's a lot of components that happen even just in the negotiations. The one on one where marketing can come in and really help support the sale and support the person who's there on the front line. That makes sense to me. And you've just reminded me, probably unintentionally, one of the worst meetings I ever had early in my career where I didn't know that part that you just said at all. So I was a marketer. I came in with my charts and my graphs and my results and I was ready to rock and roll and blow some minds. And then somebody at the back of the room asked, okay, so what happens to all those great leads after you generated them? And there was that awkward silence in the room. What do you mean my job's over? Like, no, no, it's not. What happens to the leads after you've generated? Oh, no. Yeah. So there's a whole other side to that that involves sales lines. I mean, in search has a whole nother challenge with that because of course. All right, I got a lead. Well, now the sales guy's called on the person. They're going to search for you and they're going to look at your reviews and they're going to look at what other customers are saying and how do you appear in those results. And so there are elements that, you know, even search can help with. The post lead gen component of marketing, it was a valuable lesson learned painfully and quickly at the time. And I've never forgotten it. I'm sure it was an IBM. Well, you weren't in that particular meeting. I had other bad meetings with you, but I had some good ones too. Yeah, I think the sales, the sales alignment is very interesting. Stoller and yeah, an ongoing struggle in many, if not most companies. But I want to ask a bit of a different question because we've touched on, you know, what makes a strong marketing leader, what are some of the skills and stuff like that. But once you get to the CMO chair where you have sat at various things, there's lots of big moments, lots of big transformations you're going through. I know you led a rebranding at one point. You've integrated acquisitions, prepared companies for acquisition or listing. And then we flip it around and we look at how the landscape change with different tools, with automation, AI, we won't dwell on that, but AI in the mix and stuff like that. All of this to say there's a lot of ambiguity you're going to face. There's a lot of change you're going to face in the CMO chair. And how do you adjust to that? How do you work with that without, you know, how do you manage the chaos? The, the cliche answer here is, you know, communication and communication and we've got to communicate, right? Everyone's going to say but on a more tact because that, that of course that's part of it. But what are you communicating? And I think that, you know, pick, pick your model. Whether it's okrs or whatever, having goals, having a distinct level of goals and set of goals really does make a difference. I mean an example, one company I this is when I was doing fractional CMO work, came in, I came in and the guy said like I have one goal, I want to be listed on the nasdaq. Like, you know, we're a small startup. And that was, that was it. It was just okay, great. All of the other components kind of fell aside so slight different priority and became an investor relation, it became a NASDAQ relation, analyst relation. Sort of, you know, very much focused on that element. You know, in my current role it's in publishing, you know, we are fighting the large language models and fighting, you know, tr. It is all about how do I make sure that the traffic I have doesn't degrade, doesn't fall down and how do I find more and how do I keep my return readers coming back. And that is really building a loyal audience and building a community. That is the focus right now. It's all about community, keeping a high return, visit rate and all of the other components. When we sat down, I just came out of a Sprint planning session and the whole point was what's the touchstone? What's the thing we're trying to do here? Is fixing that problem on the website really going to drive the performance that we want to get in terms of, you know, creating that loyal, loyal customer? Or is that something that we can kind of punt to another Sprint and focus on something that's drive more engagement? And so I don't know how you guys feel about that. You know, you see a lot of clients on your own. This is true. Well, it resonates with me and I'll say something, I'll say it here and people can all write in the comments, tell me how wrong I am. But I'm such a believer in a common goal in terms of unifying your team to march in the same direction that I will go so far as to say, I'd rather have the wrong goal identified as long as we're all working on it together. Because if you all work on it together, you will rapidly learn it's the wrong goal and switch to the correct one. But I'm such a believer in unifying people with the common goal post that I would. I would do the wrong thing together rather than do the right thing separately. Or you could have a client like me that kept moving the goalpost on you. I wasn't going to bring that up. That never happens. No. None of. Neither Brendan's clients nor mine have ever done that. That's how you push people. You know, you got to like, you know, you can't be. You can't be happy with getting the star. You got to get another star. Fair enough. Fair enough. That explains a few executive meetings I've been in. Actually, I want to take us in a different direction. I want to take us overseas, if you agree that that's a good idea or not. And here's where I'm going with this. You seem like a friendly neighborhood Philly boy, but you've got some significant experience overseas. Rumor has it you speak Mandarin. Is that true? Well, but I'm a little bit rusty. I'll be honest with you. That's pretty cool. In that case, thank you, Taxi Driver. Is that what you just did? I thank the master. I think I did. Or I might have caused a blood feud. I'm not sure one of the two. The reason I'm asking this and bringing it up, other than to embarrass myself. Speaking another language poorly is a CMO role, especially if you're. A larger organization, is going to operate cross borders, it's going to operate across time zone, it's going to operate across cultures. If somebody wants to be in your chair, how important is it that they go and get some experience or know what they're talking about or speak another language or go to those places or know how to interact and work in other places, or can you get away with just a North American? So there's two. There's two answers to this, right? My father, when I. When I. My father gave me advice when I was kind of trying to figure out what I was going to be when I grew up. And I admittedly was failing remedial algebra, but I was taking Chinese in high school and acing Chinese, and he sat me down one day after no one had. After everyone else in my class had applied to colleges and I hadn't even applied to one Yet. And he gave me the, you know, no son of mine's going to pump gas sort of, you know, like, lecture. And, you know, you seem to like Chinese. Do you want to go to China? So I think my father was talking about those soft skills and, like, identifying something that interests me. Clearly, I apply myself to something that interests me. So he gave me a thousand dollars on a trip to China, and I went and learned Chinese and I came back and that marrying that skill is very good. It was like he was very pointed about take a skill and marry it with marketing. Right? Bring two things together, whether it's a bioengineering degree and going and working in pharma, you know, pharma marketing, something, you know, along those lines where you're marrying two things together. I admittedly don't use my Chinese much anymore, but it did get me into the door at Obovian Mather. I was able to get into, you know, a global ad agency where I spent 25 years and got a lot of experience. I did do international components. And so there is an element of. There's a track of sort of having that skill and having that component that help will help you along with your career. Now, does it have to be a language? Does it have to be international? I don't know. I don't know if that's necessarily the way I, you know, like I said, I don't use it today, but I do use the skills that I've learned when I was overseas. You know, you have that cultural understanding that sort of. That you've got to understand where the other people are coming from and the nuances of just, you know, people's emotions and managing people. And I. Those are, again, the soft skills that have come with me into all of my, My. My more recent roles where, again, I'm not. I'm not using my Chinese skills today in my marketing role. But I do feel like I'm constantly relating back to people, even people who aren't to your point. Like, they're not necessarily, you know, international people. They're all people here in North America and apart from the Canadians have a different culture. But the, you know, just understanding, you know, people's family backgrounds, people's situations outside of work are all very different. And just having that patience and sort of that understanding to say, yeah, I get it. You know, you've got something going on outside of the office that requires you to be a little bit more congenial. I don't know what the word I'm looking for. Amenable to the circumstances that you're going through. And I think that really has helped me as a leader, build a team. You know, I think the team, having that team camaraderie, where it's like, yeah, I get it, things are going on, you might drop the ball here, but no one's going to yell and stomp their feet. I mean, it's freaking marketing, right? We're not saving lives, we're selling. And so there's, you know, having that understanding, you know, it goes a long way with building a team and, and having the team sort of say, you know what? I, I get it, I understand, you know, this is important. We got to get these things done. But I've got stuff going on and, and he's a really great leader because he understands that too. And I pride myself on being able to sort of understand that cultural. I think it has. Stems from my background in understanding cultures to some degree. But no, that could translate into running look in big companies, though. I mean, if you do want to go and work at an IBM, you want to work for any large multinational corporation having some experience overseas. And I think we even saw it when we were at IBM, Bog, there were a lot of people who would inevitably go and do a stint overseas in some foreign office, and it always helped them jump ahead. So I would encourage everyone to sort of get some level of international experience, even if you're leaving Canada and coming down here to New York for a little while. I was the international search expert for a while. That's true, I think, I think it was a joke, but I liked it anyway. That's a great, that's a great response. I like it. And for anyone who's following the math out there, a degree these days north of border will probably cost you close to 100 grand. And Brian just got a thousand bucks on a plane ticket and learned Chinese and came back and made it happen. You probably got a degree along the way, too. Yeah, there was another degree that happened along the way, but, but in terms of roi, that ain't bad. My father says to this day, still the best thousand dollars you ever spent. Fair enough. So I kind of, I, I hinted at this earlier, Stoller, but we'll dust off the crystal ball here, or dust off your beer, your bucket of beer, whichever you prefer. I mentioned AI, I mentioned automation, I mentioned a lot of factors that disrupt marketing. Given your background, given where you sit today, what does a CMO role look like five years from now, and what does the team that supports them look like as well? I have no idea. I'm not going to sit here and honesty and Heineken. Here's what I do know, right. And what's interesting is I'm here at VentureBeat and we cover a lot of AI and what I'm learning in the last, you know, few weeks as I've been here. I don't know what I like, don't know. Like it's, it's coming at us so fast. I sit in these editorial meetings and I listen to the guys who are pitching stories and I understand every third word they say. Like it's coming at us quick. My own, you know, and I'm, I've taught myself how to code and Claude, like something I didn't ever expect I had to do. You know, we, we were talking about skills earlier on, like what skills you would tell, what you would teach people. Probably wouldn't tell people to go learn how to code anymore. That's something that, you know, everyone was learning, you know, in the last 20 years was go learn how to code, learn how to code. Right. Well, you know, I've just figured out how to code a very detailed program and I did it in about an hour and a half using Claude and it works. So, you know, I'll tell you, the team, the, the teams will, and we're going to talk about, you know, jobs and losing jobs to AI and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, I mean, the teams are a little bit thinner and what I can do now by myself with a little bit of AI is really, really powerful. And I assume that that's going to continue to go. I think the other thing that you may find that I'm starting to realize is some of these little startup companies that do lead gen components and all there are AI tools that can replace them. And so I think you're going to see some shakeup in the industry in terms of the sorts of vendors that keep calling and knocking. And my, my LinkedIn and Facebook feeds are full of all these third party marketing companies that I think are going to struggle a little bit with these, especially the software based ones that are promising me to do intent based data. And I'm like, I can start to create some of that intent based modeling using Claude. And so there's definitely things that are going to change dramatically. But I don't know, I mean, you're in the agency world and I do believe that the role of the agency is to bring that sort of level of innovation. So I would almost say that you guys probably have a better understanding of where you think the world's going to go then? I do. I would. I would second your answer. Then five years from now. I'd settle for five weeks from now. Right at the pace to the trade expression of drinking from a fire hose. Yeah. What we can all. I think anyone here can do things today that they literally couldn't do two years ago. So that matters. Maybe we'll have to do another episode in five months and then five years and we'll see what the changes were. Well, then. By that. By then, quantum computing will be out and we'll all be out of work. So just. Yes. But we'll be fed and have guaranteed income and all those wonderful things. Yeah. Do you want to bring us home, Bog? I'll give our favorite question to you this episode. Episode. I love it, Mr. Staller. Everything else has been a preamble to this moment. Are you ready? Oh, gosh. This is your opportunity. Wait, I think I need another step. Yeah. Get that India. For sure. Get that India. Because we want more truth. So far you've had no problem sharing the truth. So let's keep that going. You see, no filter. No filter. And here's the question. There's a lot of baloney in our industry, more than I would have cared to admit or even knew about when I started. I thought these suit types, they all know what they're talking about. No, there's a fair bit of baloney in our industry. So this is your opportunity to let some air out of that balloon, correct the record and tell anybody who wants to be a CMO or any other marketer for that matter, they're all ambitious people. What's the part that is a complete myth or fabrication about what you need to do your job as a cmo? What's the urban legend or the big lie that you wish would just go away? Yeah. That's an easy one, actually. It's not about branding. Now, I'm going to say that with the caveat. It is about branding. The brand is the most important thing there is. Right. Brand. But to back to going back to knowing your strengths and knowing your weaknesses, you can be a CMO and not have a strong branding background. Right. You don't have to necessarily be the guy who knows the core. I'm colorblind. Right. I can't see colors. Right. Don't ask me to tell you what pantone color we're looking at. I have no idea. Right. So, like brand guidelines and all. I know to bring someone else in for those sorts of things. Yeah. I've gone through brand rebranding exercises with several companies. And, you know, the biggest thing is just know where the good ideas come from. Right. It's, it's. Sometimes you got to go to an agency, sometimes you got to hire outside people. If you know your strength isn't branding. I know my strength is performance marketing and building internal teams and running, you know, leadership skills. Right. But when it comes down to branding, I need to bring other people in. Right. And so I don't think you need to be that cmo. Right. I think so many people look at a CMO and go like, oh, it's, you know, they're architecting a brand to some degree. You have to understand the value of the brand. You have to see in the value proposition. You have to understand the customer insights and all that kind of stuff. Being able to translate that, but being able to do like, proper branding, branding. You don't necessarily have to be that type of person. I get so many questions. Oh, you're a CMO and they do. Someone, you know, at a cocktail party immediately asked me a branding question. I'm like, you know, like, I don't know. I'm sure, I'm sure, you know, big company picked a reason, has a reason for why they went down that strategy, you know, but, but having. Having people understanding, you know, that being a CMO sometimes means leaning in on some other skills. And it's not just the big branding person. You don't have to be a branding person to become, you know, a big bigwig leader. Not that I'm a big wig leader, but I love that answer because it is kind of counterculture. I will confess that part of the briefings when we're doing prospecting with clients at Search Warrant is I come out first and say, if you're looking for the Nike Swoosh or the Golden Arches, that's not us. That's not what we do here. We're the money in the bank people, not the design and creative people. But I respect those people. That's just not who we are. Brendan, how about you? You might be closer to the branding world. He does more branding than the rest of us. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I totally agree to the point that I don't know that a CMO has to be the branding expert. So I can totally relate to that. But yeah, now as you were talking, Stoller, I do. I can see where people would put those two together. But yeah, at the same time, and I know neither of you disagree with this, you know, branding awareness and all that stuff. Is obviously extremely important. But yeah, whether you're doing it as a CMO or no, you can't and hire the agency to do it as long as you're focused on that. I do find it shocking sometimes that companies don't spend the time or effort on that and like just make silly branding mistakes, messaging positioning mistakes along the way. And it can have a big impact, I think especially if you're in a medium or smaller sized company knowing the role of the agency and often the overall agency for branding is a perfect opportunity to bring someone in, an agency in for branding because it's, you know, brand, brand is forever, don't get me wrong. But, but a branding exercise is a short lived thing so there's no need to bring that, that skill set in house. Right. You can bring in an expert who can guide you, set you, work with you, set up your brand guidelines, set up your sort of your vision, give you the strategic that you need. But, and then you know, once you've internalized it, you can, you can typically execute it yourself. So yeah, the role of the agency is really, really important. Yeah. And I think the outside marketing, we should all hire Zinc Marketing and help. Yay. And I was just going to say the outside perspective I think is super valuable on the branding front because when I've been involved in larger organizations in my career, you know, sometimes that internal focus is just a death spiral to, to a good strong brand. Right. So the outside perspective can really add value there as well. I totally agree and I'm going to wrap this up. My closing comment will be, I do acknowledge that if the Nike Swoosh people and the Golden Arches people have done their job first, my job at the other end of the line is so much easier. Yes, exactly. And with that, that's our parting shot. Mr. Stoller's got a whole bucket of beer to get through today. He can't do it and give CMO answers. Thanks to you all the as do we. So I want to thank you for joining us. That was a great conversation. We just scratched the surface. We'll have to do it again. Cheers, gentlemen. Cheers. Cheers. Hey folks, if you liked that episode, you won't believe the next one. So don't forget to subscribe on your favorite platform and you won't miss out. Or if you've got an idea we haven't thought of yet, hit us up in the comments, we'll cover that too.