#188 - Enterprise Agility and Scaling Effectiveness with Carol Carpenter, CMO at Cohesity

Speaker A: You know, marketing marketers, we are really good at running up and down the stairs faster. And what I told the CEO when I started and, uh, I've shared with the team, we're not here to run up and down the stairs faster. We're here to build an elevator.

Speaker B: I am noticing this quite hard line between CMOs and marketing leaders who think that creativity can't be automated and it's those good ideas that are really going to make a splash. And then the other side where it's like, we need to hire engineers and marketing marketers are engineers now. They don't need to be creative. Everything should be data driven. How do you get that balance in your hiring and do you have any kind of thoughts on that tension?

Speaker A: For any role, it's extremely important to find people who are smart, passionate and curious. And so my favorite question right now is.

Speaker B: M. Hi everyone and welcome back to

Speaker C: the Finite by Clarity podcast. This is our first, uh, episode since the rebrand and it's a good one to kick things off with. I'm joined by the incredible Carol Carpenter. She's led marketing at Google VMware Unity and is now CMO, uh, at Cohesity. We dig into what she's been building there. A marketing function that moves fast and adapts quickly inside an enterprise level organization that by most standards shouldn't be able to do either. She's basically defied the laws of physics.

Speaker B: We get into her approach to AI

Speaker C: not as a cost cutting exercise, but as a genuine driver of effectiveness and growth. How she structured her team, how she hires, and how she thinks about balancing human creativity with efficiency. It truly is an inspiring episode and a strong articulation of the complex challenges we're all facing.

Speaker B: I hope you enjoy. Hi Carol. Thank you for joining me on the Finite podcast.

Speaker A: Thank you, Jody, for having me.

Speaker B: It's great to have you here. We are here in the Cohesity offices in London in front of a beautiful view. I'm going to take a picture so you guys can see it. Um, and we're here to talk about your journey, uh, over the past couple of years at Cohesity. Um, you've got an amazing background in B2B tech, marketing and strategy and leadership. And I'm really looking forward to seeing your insights and hearing how you've navigated, uh, the challenge challenges of a scaling business. So before we do that, please impress us, take us away, tell us all about your background in marketing, how you've got to where you are now.

Speaker A: I've been super fortunate. I've Been working in technology for coming on 30 years and I've been in very large companies like Google and VMware. VMware. I was CMO and I've also been in some very small startups where, you know, we've put together our desk furniture and our chairs and it's been an incredible. I feel so privileged to work and have had these experiences in technology and high tech. It's been, I've learned so much through it. I. And I haven't always been a marketer actually, and I think that's what makes me a better marketer. I've run sales, I've been a general manager. I also naively took a CEO role of a very small startup. We turned that around and then sold that company. But that was a short journey. And that's when I realized I don't really want to be a CEO. And it's made me a better CMO in terms of really relating everything we do back to business outcomes. And I've just met and had really wonderful mentors along the way, so I feel very grateful.

Speaker B: That sounds like an amazing journey. And do you feel like each role you kind of figure out your specific niche and what you really are passionate about?

Speaker A: Yes, exactly. Well, I started my career in tech at Apple and I was a product manager. And at that time there really weren't product marketers versus product managers. I think it's still the same. In any case, there was a philosophy that one cannot market the product unless you understand what the product is. And that's one of those tenets I've carried through my career, which is I do tend to lean a bit towards digging into the product. I uh, want to understand what the tech actually does in order to convey the benefits and the outcomes of that tech. So that was one of those, you know, crucible moments that really shaped how I look at go to market strategies.

Speaker B: Nice. Okay, cool. And tell me about your role at Cohesity. You know, your team, uh, your leadership style, you know, um, the kind of focus, uh, areas for you at the moment.

Speaker A: Yes. So cohesity today, about 18 months ago, we merged, we acquired another company, a very large company called Veritas, which has a super amazing history in the valley and across, uh, tech. And it came with people and processes and you know, anytime you put two fairly large orgs together, we're now about 5,800 people. You put these organizations together. The easy part is the balance sheet. The hard part, it's the people, the culture and the transition. You need to take everyone through and that has been, uh, it's been challenging with highs and lows around. How do you form two, take m. Form one marketing team with people coming from different backgrounds, different points of view, different processes. And so the very first thing we worked on as a team is how can we work together effectively and how do we get the best of all worlds here? Meaning, you know, Koisi was um, a very startup like culture, as one of my colleagues would say. It was ready, fire, aim. And Veritas, being a more long standing company, was one where it was ready, ready, ready, fire, aim, aim, aim, fire. So much more thoughtful, planful. And so that was one of those areas when we came together it was like, hmm, how do we get the best of both worlds? The deep thought and then the rapid execution. And I think that's a challenge for any company that's scaling. How do you scale with speed? And I've seen this at places like Google and at places like VMware where you just get to a certain mass and you need to break those laws of physics. You need to say, yes, we are going to still move with speed. We are going to still, still reduce the number of people in meetings and calls and decisions. And so that's a lot of what we've been going through is how do we move with scale and speed?

Speaker B: Okay, great. So it's kind of like effectiveness in terms of productivity, getting the most out of your team, uh, and kind of making the biggest splash, uh, in the market with the greatest ease and kind of smoothness, reducing friction, um, to make things bigger and better with your marketing. And do you find that that has a direct impact on the effectiveness of your marketing itself and your, and your, you know, ability to achieve growth goals as well?

Speaker A: That's right. Well, trust is always the foundation that ladders up to accountability and high performance. And so building that kind of trust across the team. I mean Jody, that's, that's that foundational element and I believe we've done, we've made good progress on that. How do you build trust? It means following through, it means being accountable. It means, um, showing up when people need you to show up. It's all those things and it's also creating personal connections and all that that ladders up. So you mentioned effectiveness, give you a few examples really quickly. One, the effectiveness of our demand gen funnel. So in B2B marketing, we all know the lifeblood is how do you drive pipeline, how do you acquire customers the most effectively with the highest ROI and the least amount of cost? And how do you do that so that the customer m you meet the customer where they are. And we have a lot of antiquated notions of what a funnel should look like. We often draw it on a slide with a linear progression and we all know it's not. I just heard a stunning stat that buying committees today require over 160 touches.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: Before, and this is for B2B enterprise software, of course, over 160 touches. Now a touch can be they came to the website, they came to a webinar, it could be, but it requires a lot of energy and effort. And so we look at effectiveness in terms of our engagement from a customer as well as how quickly can we move them through a series of a journey so that they can reach a yes, no buying decision as fast as possible. So it's a lot of that and you know, stepping back, it's also really moving the needle on the things that we're held accountable for. Awareness, engagement and pipeline. So the pipeline example is an easy one that we all look at because it's hugely metrics driven and so you can look at your effectiveness and your efficiency pretty easily. But the other two are just as important. You know, awareness and engagement. Today we're fortunate we can measure so much of that. But engagement is what drives loyalty, it drives usage, it drives commitment from a customer side and partner side. So that's equally as important.

Speaker B: Yeah, the effectiveness of brand awareness and brand kind of marketing efforts. Uh, it does seem complex. How do you numericize that at a more tactical level?

Speaker A: Like I said, I'm so fortunate that I think over the moment, um, you've seen it over the past decade, you can numericize it. So there's your traditional let's do a survey pre post the brand campaign. You can do it across channels. Um, there's also right now and AI has enabled this. There are ways to go out and scrape across the web and you can measure brand awareness, consideration, et cetera. So there are several tools that we use. There's one called Blue Ocean, there's another called uh, Dianta. And those are all quantitative and they can give you. So for example, we launched a brand campaign. You know, our awareness was quite low compared to our competition and quite low overall. It had a score from Blue ocean of around 20 something. And I'm pleased to say that after, you know, a year of working on our brand specifically in specific markets, it's now well up, you know, in the mid-30s, high-30s. And that's brand awareness. There's also brand consideration and brand preference. Which is what we all want to get to. So, so many great tools now for, for measuring that. You can also do simple things too where you can just, you can look at um, you, you can take a subset and sample through LinkedIn if you want to.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Brand lift, um, surveys as well. All great tools coming out to, to measure brand. So I'm getting the sense that you are really in the weeds in a positive way. You know, a lot of the CMOs I talk to, um, whether that it's better or worse, you know, they're thinking top level strategy, they're thinking, you know, boards, level relations, uh, and you know, um, their own kind of profiling within the market. I love that you are so invested at that kind of campaign level in results and that, that is, you know, according to your background. Exactly. You know, where you should be and where your bread and butter is. Uh, it's fascinating. I would love to know, you know, how you, how you. It's such a hard question, but how did you actually, on a um, day to day level, bridge that gap between that big slow moving cruise ship of um, an enterprise with that fast paced agile startup. Um, how did you make those connections? And I'm assuming AI was really involved if, if you could go into a bit more about your AI use as well.

Speaker A: Yes, yes. Well, one thing I'll, I will tell you is um, you know, marketing marketers, we are really good at running up and down the stairs faster. And what I told the CEO when I started and I've shared with the team, we're not here to run up and down the stairs faster. And that's what marketing we do really well. Events, pr, et cetera. We're here to build an elevator to get to the hundredth floor and there's no other way to do that without some kind of automation. So some of what I talked about, yes, it is definitely in the weeds. But we needed to get some of our foundations in place. Foundations in terms of trust and how we work together and foundations in terms of metrics. Understanding where we are. The what AI has done for us has just supercharged everything we do. So we do, uh, I should actually also mention cohesity. Our mission is to protect, secure and provide insights from data. So our mission to our customers is very focused on how do you protect and secure your data and then get insights. We also apply that internally. So that's why data is so incredibly important to us. It's protecting and then also how are we using it to further our objectives as a marketing team. For example, so when you ask how are we using AI? It's been very natural. And I've noticed a few things because we tried a tops down approach initially. Okay. So we have, we're a Microsoft Office shop and we started with Microsoft Copilot. We said, hey, everyone go use this. And then we looked at ChatGPT and this was about 18 months ago and we said, oh Chachi PT, it's amazing. Talked to it, lobbied for it. And then we made ChatGPT available to the team. And so it was a little bit of a tops down. Hey, this is what we're going to do. But what we've seen over the last year is that the bottoms up letting, just putting the tools out there and letting your team take advantage of them, lots of ideas bubble up. And so what we did was we, we now have, for better or worse, we have many tools in house. We have uh, Enterprise Claude available to the team in addition to Enterprise ChatGPT as well as Enterprise Copilot and Gemini is used in some pocket pockets. We said, team, use them and see what comes up. And so a few things have bubbled up. One is an AI translation tool. So historically translation is done, product launch materials are created, an event kit is created and you say to a translation company, hello, we work in 140 different countries, please, here are top 10 countries, please go and translate this for us. And it's a very linear process. Laborious, laborious, huge lift.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: And expensive as well. And the team actually came back and said, hey, we created this thing called Local Local Localize and it has the AI localize la I z e. And I said, oh, show me. And what it can do is we put all of our brand guidelines, our uh, brand tone and voice in and you give it content. It's really good. We're still on a learning journey. I think we all are with AI.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: It's really good for short content. Not as good for long pieces yet, yet. But we're working with it to really stabilize and make it more impactful. We have another one, it's called Brandy. This was a bottoms up which people now within the company can take their, their slide decks and run it through and it checks for is it on brand? Does it have the right tone and voice? And it makes recommendations.

Speaker B: M. Wow. Um, it sounds like your team is technically savvy, that's for sure. So you're not only enabling them to choose which AI model can write the best LinkedIn post or whatever, you're enabling them to vibe code and Create their own solutions for their own unique problems, uh, that they're facing.

Speaker A: We're trying, we're trying. You know, not everyone wants to be a builder and that's okay too. And in that case, what we're trying to do is just, hey, bring us ideas and other people will implement. But it's all about curiosity and being willing to try. What I've also noticed is, you know, our teams are so busy here in the uk, for example, we have a really incredibly busy team that's trying to cover a lot of ground with a very, um, demanding sales team. We've doubled our resources here in the UK and at the same time they're still super busy. So the big question my team asked me is how do we make time? How do we give people time to explore and to play with the tools? And that's been the biggest unlock. And I can't say we fully, you know, we haven't fully achieved this, but what we've tried to do is say, hey, every manager, please try to carve out some time for your team, whether it's Wednesday afternoon for two hours or Friday at the end of the day, or find some time and give that to your team. And um, they come up with great stuff.

Speaker B: M and I think that's just good mid to long term thinking. It's like teaching them how to fish rather than giving them fish. It's, it's cutting off time and it's making it more efficient in the long run. If they're automating parts of their processes that they didn't think that could, could ever be automated. Yes, it takes more time up front, but obviously in the long term you're going to see massive gains.

Speaker A: Totally. And I've, you know, one framework we're using is that we're trying to look at all the work we do in three buckets. There's strategic work we all do, there's execution work. And that execution work should either be outsourced or automated. We want to try to lift everyone so that everyone can do more strategic work, which is what people want to do most of the time. They want time to think, they want time to come up with bigger ideas or different ways of doing things. And I think that's on us, that's on us as leaders too, find ways. And like I said, I asked people like, what are you doing today that could be outsourced or automated? M and obviously AI on the automation front is such a big game changer.

Speaker B: Absolutely. I mean, that brings me to a question that I've had on my mind for a while and it's this, you know, what is the business case for AI? At the end of the day, I've had people on the show come and say, look, to be totally honest, we're cutting costs across the board. We want to reduce headcount and we want to do that in the short term to invest more in AI. And we're not even sure whether we're going to rehire those roles or what roles are going to be created or anything. It seems to be this kind of reductive process of making things smaller and smaller so that margins are bigger and bigger, which everyone loves and marketing is also involved in as well. What is your aim with the, the end goal of this automation you've mentioned, you know, enabling your team and, and um, making marketing more effective. But yeah, I wanted to hear your thoughts on that yourself.

Speaker A: AI is incredibly important because it's going to free up time. But our big driver was, has not been cost. Our big driver has been scale and speed. Coming back to what I said earlier, like the speed to be able to get to market. Like we had a board member, I uh, was sitting in board meeting m just actually a few days ago and he said a week is like a quarter, three months of time now. And I think. And that really struck me and I've taken it and have said to my team, a week is like a year now. I mean truly, everything has accelerated. Every week you see competition doing something new. You see the industry changing. You hear about Mythos, which impacts our industry around data security. You hear every week there's something new, a new attack, a new threat. So for us, it is absolutely about speed. You cannot sit still anymore. You really cannot. So how can we move faster? How do we make decisions faster? How do we get the data sorted faster and with insights so we know what to do and what to change that process. It's incredible how much it has sped up and that demand on us. Literally every week something is changing. And when he said that, I thought, oh, he's so right. Like the days of let's do a study and let's get the data and let's get a consulting firm in and let's figure this out and then come to a decision three months from now. M those days are gone. Those days are truly gone now. You always want to have some very long term thinking happening and you need to carve that time out. So speed has been the main impetus for us. And I'll give you an example we mentioned. I uh, talked about the pipeline, how do you help customers on their buying journey? And we've discovered that for us, not only is it many touches, it's about a six month sales cycle for a customer to decide that they need cohesity. We believe we absolutely need to shorten that a because obviously we'd like, you know, the money in the door faster. We want to retain customers, we want to earn customers trust faster. But more importantly they are at risk. Like I'm not sure how you got here, if you came on the tube or if you walked, I came on a plane. All that infrastructure for us to do what we need to do every day, your banking, your health care, all those companies, we today, we help secure the data for 70% of the Global 500. All that data is being attacked, constantly being breached. And I have talked to my team that we cannot sit still. Our vision of making everyone more resilient really needs to move a little faster. So we looked at that pipeline and we said how do we move them along faster? So we've applied AI with our SDR team. So our SDR team, they would take a marketing lead and turn it into a meeting. That's their goal in simple terms. And we said, well how can we help you? And so we're using an AI tool, it's called outreach AI where one SDR does the work of 60. Wow. Um, the emails, the follow up, the, the nurture streams that they can put them through incredibly much faster used to all be manual. And so that process is paying off. We have seen a doubling of our MQL to TQL status. We've seen a doubling of our stats. It used to be around 3.5% and now it's 7, 7% and growing.

Speaker B: It really is incredible. It used to feel like the link between scaling and slowness was inevitable. We would talk about it all the time and it really feels like that's completely, completely being deconstructed. Now you've really managed to map out the way that you've sped up your team and sped up the buying cycle and, and the link between those two, that amazing, you know, stat at the top, was it 160 touch points?

Speaker A: Over 160?

Speaker B: Over 160. If that is the benchmark, achieving that within, you know, half the time frame, you're still converting, you're still communicating, you're getting that necessary out to market. It sounds like a really important one. Um, ah, at a level of um, yeah, just with this huge team. How big is your team? We're about

Speaker A: 130 strong.

Speaker B: Now that's a fairly, that's a fairly big team. Absolutely.

Speaker A: We operate in all, uh, like I mentioned, in 140 countries. And we focus, of course on, you know, a top 10 country list. So we have tiers. Yes, we've. We've really worked hard. We do have agencies and, you know, extended support in some regions and countries. I, I think we're not going to quite be like the one person at Anthropic who ran the whole marketing team for the first few years, obviously with very advanced tools. Uh, we're not going to ever. I don't imagine we'll ever be that kind of team, but I don't think we need to grow the way we used to, which used to be, oh, you need more content created, you need more creative. Oh, let's add more headcount to do that. I don't think we'll be quite that. I think this outsource and automate model, so they're strategic outsource and automate, I think that model can carry us quite far.

Speaker B: And I think, especially because we've talked about efficiency and effectiveness and this balance between the two. Um, I mean, it sounds like that guy Anthropic had the mix of both with his tools. Um, but I guess this model is what enables that balance. Because you would think that automating so much might reduce quality of content, might reduce quality of those touch points themselves if they're automated, if they're clearly AI or, um, yeah, they might, uh, lose trust with the audience. Um, do you find that this model supports that? And how else are you kind of making sure that that balance is, is clear?

Speaker A: You know, I've talked with my CFO about this because I think the relationship between the CMO and the CFO is incredibly important because marketing is a business driver. I've often thought that the role really should be chief market officer, not chief marketing officer, because it's really about how do we penetrate markets and how do we gain share. And his focus is obviously on that top line and also the bottom line. And so he's looking for efficiency, and we are too. We want to be more efficient. We don't want to be more efficient just to save costs. It comes back to how do we really advance and have our team do more strategic work. But he's looking for, um. He and I have talked about it, like, how do we manage the balance between effectiveness and efficiency? He would obviously like us to reduce costs. And the one thing I have been adamant with him, you cannot. There are two things you Cannot outsource or automate. And that's creativity and good taste. And that is where I do believe marketing has a huge role and where we have teams and people that need to apply the judgment. Especially our AI tools are not perfect. We all know that. There are still hallucinations, there's still mistakes that come back. And you need people who have wisdom and good taste and creativity to look at whether it's a piece of creative or a piece of content. That's not correct. That's not right. And so we go for, uh, my m. General rule is effectiveness is how are we moving the market Metrics that matter, awareness, pipeline, et cetera, the efficiency metrics, which is what he also wants to see. Are we getting that ROI target of 1 to 15? In some places 1 to 10, but 1 to 15, as a general rule, and we hold to that and we drive for that. Do we always hit it? Not always. Sometimes we do better, sometimes we don't do quite so well. It's okay. We're learning and we're iterating.

Speaker C: Hm.

Speaker A: We talk about that a lot. And that's what I m emphasize to him is you have to look at, you can't look at marketing in days, you need to look at it in weeks and months. When you look at some of the bigger metrics around ROI and cost per lead, etc. You have to look at that in the longer term.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. Now that you say that, I'm kind of, I am noticing this quite hard line between CMOs and marketing leaders who think that creativity can't be automated. And it's those good ideas that are really going to, um, make a splash. And then, um, the other side where it's like we need to hire engineers. Marketing marketers are engineers now. They don't need to be creative. Everything should be data driven. It's, it's. How do you get that balance in your hiring? And do you have any kind of thoughts on that tension?

Speaker A: It is really interesting because I just spent the last day in a, an on site with uh, our creative teams, including our agency. And we were going through and we were talking about how are, how are they the agency, how is the agency using AI? And I'll come back to your hiring question. It was super interesting though because we were talking about how important and effective AI can be for brainstorming and we really talked about it. A lot of what comes out is still not very good quality and that's where taste and creativity come in. So, uh, we were also talking about as we expand the team, how do we find good talent? So I feel that for any role, it's extremely important to find people who are smart, passionate and curious. And so my favorite question right now is, tell me about a prompt you recently used. What problem were you trying to solve and how did you iterate on your prompt? Because no one's a great prompter right away. And what's great is the tools actually tell you. Like, if it's interesting, um, I end every one of my prompts with, hey, Claude, hey, copilot, hey, hey, Gemini. How could I have prompted you better to get to this outcome? So it's teaching as well. So it's super interesting. When you ask people this question in an interview, it ranges the gamut. Like, I had a gentleman tell me about, uh, he's in communications and he told me this incredible story. He said he's at a public company, he has different Personas set up as agents. He runs every earnings script through these different Personas, and they represent investors who follow their stock to see how are they going to react to this earnings day. And he had. Also, part of his prompt is pull from the last quarter of financial analyst reports they've written. And how did they react to all the companies they've covered? And look at my earnings write up and how does it compare to all the write ups that took the stock in a positive direction? I mean, it was quite an elaborate prompt, but pretty interesting. Yeah. And then, then the other side of it is I had, uh, another interviewee share a personal story of how they were trying to help their child with. Now, I don't know how if this is appropriate with their homework.

Speaker B: No, please.

Speaker A: But you know, she was sharing how she was helping with their homework and I said, oh, that's super interesting. Tell me more. And so it was prompt, it was a history. Uh, it was a history. And they were trying to compare the, um, World War I and World War II. And so it was, it was another elaborate problem. I found it just as interesting. And when people share it shares, it's much more about how they think, the kinds of questions they're asking, how they're adding other elements of data to the prompt.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. I think those are really interesting examples. I mean, the LLMs are great at crawling. Right. And to get all of this amount of data from across the web into one kind of analysis report, that sounds like a great prompt to me. So you're kind of looking for curiosity and drive and also, um, maybe even structured thinking or in a way kind of opportunistic uh, thinking about how to kind of solve those really, really meaty challenges, uh, in your day to day.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, I like the way you put that opportunistic thinking. I would have characterized it more as an of growth mindset, but I think your opportunistic thinking and I think that today everyone's got is using some AI in their personal or professional lives. So it's very interesting. And I think having that opportunistic thinking, plus obviously a passion and interest in our business, our company, our industry, just makes for great success. Those are the types of folks who are going to teach us. I heard another CEO talk about the fact he doesn't want to hire anyone over the age of 26, which is a bit of an extreme. Right. And obviously a bit ageist. We don't.

Speaker B: Yes, absolutely.

Speaker A: However, I understand the point. And the point is we also want folks who can think out of the box and who aren't perhaps as shaped by how things have been done. Mhm.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Because that's where the gains come. I think we've all seen, I call it AI 1.0, which is okay, we're all using this to make ourselves a little more productive. AI 2.0. The gains are really when you look at what workflow and you change workflow and that's what we're in the midst of. I talked about a few examples earlier. That's what he's getting at. Because workflow and those become somewhat hardened with time. Well, this is how we've always done it. This is how we go to market. This is how we work with the channel. This is how we price and package and those are the walls we want to break down or um, make them less, less movable, less immovable.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. That's interesting that you're actually putting this into practice. I feel like everybody wants, you know, flexible, ambiguous generalists these days. But you still see job roles that are very defined, very rigid still those same structures. Still looking at SEO is if it's typical, kind of technical and page optimization kind of stuff. And ignoring this, this big world, I feel like, yeah, CMOs can be quite, um, hesitant to actually put their money where their mouth is and say, actually we are looking for those soft skills as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, you need a combo in some cases. To be fair. There are some areas, like you mentioned, SEO and you know, LLM, optimism, A E, O, A ieo, whatever you want to call it today. There's no one with expertise in that. Right. So again, that's where those soft skills matter. How do people think? How do they approach problems? There are other areas where you do need to have some hard skills. I do believe, for example, in I was talking about pipeline and pipeline generation, need to have some hard skills and some understanding of enterprise customers, how they buy. Now, that's changing as well. Right. But you need to have some fundamental understanding.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Absolutely. The core strategy and the fundamentals, they never go away, do they? All right. Well, that's kind of all we have time for today. It's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you, Carol. Honestly, I've learned so much, and it's been so entertaining. I hope you've enjoyed yourself as well.

Speaker A: I have. Jody, thank you. Thank you for having me.