Leaders / Do your sales teams suck ? ( or is it you ) / Run effective meetings / keeping your team accountable ?

Speaker A: Hi everyone. Very excited this morning because Alyssa and I have started, um, a new podcast, essentially. Well, a new meeting of, of, ah, to record a podcast. By God, I'm messing this up. Um, so once a month we're going to get together and we're going to talk about issues that we feel are important in both our businesses. So with the angles of our business, um, it'll be under the banner of ask the right questions. Uh, Alyssa was a contributor in the past. We did a lot of great things together. So I'm really excited. We have what I think is a really good podcast today. Uh, we have a formula that's kind of exciting. Um, Alyssa, I'll let you talk about the formula.

Speaker B: Yeah, sure. And I'll say too, um, we're coming in from each our own distinct lenses of how we help clients. Clients as consultants. But really our material is coming from real world experiences that we've had and seen in our clients business and realities. It can either be a topic of, uh, why people find us to begin with or shifts that they've seen in their business from a space of struggle to a place of ease in the context of both sales and in my case, general management systems. So our structure is we're going to pick a theme. Each episode that we found is a really hot topic for SME business owners. It tends to be the ones we hear most. It tends to be the ones that drag business owners down the most. And we're hoping that they're really relatable to our audience in some facet. Whether you've experienced this particular struggle directly, likely in the solutions we're sharing, or some of the case studies or experiences, you'll find some, um, relevant, relatable, uh, learnings and experiences.

Speaker A: Awesome. So there's a couple of subjects. Well, there's one subject we want to start with today. It's very raw, it's very out there. I'll let you. We were actually busting our guts laughing when we first talked about it, but I think we laugh one because it's true and the title can seem quite crass. So go for it.

Speaker B: Yeah. So we've legit heard it maybe, uh, not exactly verbatim in this way. Every time.

Speaker A: I have.

Speaker B: You have. I have too. But lots of owners. Owners sometimes go home at the end of the day grumbling to themselves. It keeps them up at night and they wake up saying, oh, my sales team is.

Speaker A: Yes. And I. Sorry, I shouldn't laugh. Because when they say this, it's out of frustration and it comes from A really dark place. Not a dark place, but a feeling of frustration. Um, and we wanted to go more in depth with that. But here you keep going. I keep interrupting you. I'm sorry.

Speaker B: No, that's okay. No, I, I mean, we're going back and forth here, but yeah, I think, I think that is how often business owners feel because for the most part, they have, from the infancy of their business starting, they have been their lead salesperson. And it's sometimes really hard to let go of the reins. It's also really hard to hire someone who you think can be a clone of you and have them fail you or not deliver in the way you hope or expect them to. But I think it's a combination of finding the right people, supporting those people, and also maintaining realistic expectations. That's kind of this combo of making a powerful sales team that you can move up and out of because that's no longer your job.

Speaker A: Yep, absolutely. And I mean, we'll get into the, the, the, the crux of it, but essentially, I think you said it. Well, a lot of business owners start the business themselves. They grow it from scratch. So they have a view of how they want it to grow, how they want to sell. And so when the teams don't deliver exactly the way they do, they get upset and they get to a point where they say, my sales team is shit. And I think it's more of a perspective and it can hide other problems that probably need to be dealt with, I. E. Leadership, um, I. E. The approach to which you, uh, go out there and sell and being realistic. It's not every salesperson that thinks like an owner. And it's. And that's something that can have great, um, great incidents on what's going on.

Speaker B: Yes, exactly. And I feel like you had a good case study. So do you mind sharing, Paul, uh, the story that you have as an example of where you saw a team kind of shift from underperforming to over delivering because of some key changes that have been made. And we'll talk in more detail about what those changes are.

Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. So I'm going to, I'm going to hide the names because, um, I just think it's a polite thing to do. So we'll, we'll call her Jessica. Um, Jessica owned a business that got bought out by a bigger player, but Jessica ran that business and she's still running the business within the new, um, under the umbrella of the new company. So in her mind, it's very, very, very, very frustrating when other people don't see things the way she does. So super A type personality, great salesperson, started the business from scratch. And this person felt oh my God, my sales team, shit. They don't have what I have. And what this person quickly, what Jessica quickly realized is they're not the owners of the business. They're not coming at it from the same perspective and they can't be in your head. And often she would assume they should think the same way she did. Now what's really good about Jessica is she's open minded and willing to look at things differently and say okay, um, where are they coming from and what do I need to show them or ask them for them to see things my way. So it started out extreme frustration. My sales team, shit. They don't know what the hell they're doing to sort of training them but also coaching them and understanding where they coming, where they're coming from. Because until they get it, until you understand that they get it. And the only way to know that they get it is by asking them questions. She was very much on, well you should be getting, you should see it this way, you should have it that way. So essentially the problem was not so much that her sales team was shit, but she was acting like a shitty leader and, and she wasn't giving them the time to express what they're. What they should be doing. Mhm.

Speaker B: Yeah. And that probably comes into a few different ways. One would be really clear positioning. Often I think owners aren't very good at actually documenting or writing down or even leadership teams cohesively aren't very good at defining the positioning of their core focus of their business. What's the value? What's the benefit? What's the differentiator of that thing you sell that you make money on period in the world? So much is lacking process. So not only is positioning lacking, but a structured sales process. What do those meetings look like? How many are we doing? Where are those leads coming from? How are they being qualified? What are you actually doing when you encounter a client first and what's that grooming process further on whether it's nurturing or follow up. And we can get on down rabbit hole of like hunters versus farmers too within an organization. Um, but there's many facets to sales within an organization that I think business owners don't do the due diligence of mapping out in advance of hiring a team and then expecting the team to jump in the deep end in their magical deep end that they've never really explained and, and swim and, and often Surprise, surprise. They can't. Um, so. Yeah, so feel free to riff on that too.

Speaker A: Well, there's so much I want to say there, but the first thing I want to say is that. And you probably see this on the operational side and I see this often on the sales side. And what I see is that the owner or the leader is a natural. So they naturally understand how to converse with their potential clients. So they've never actually written down their sales process. They don't even think it's a sales process. They just think, well, this is the way you do it. This is what I do, this is what I do. They don't realize that they're taking a little bit of time to introduce themselves, they're asking some questions, they're taking the time to understand the client's business and then they're coming in and solving specific solutions. So they're doing the intro, the discovery, confirming discovery, asking open ended and close ended questions. So all things that are part of their sales process that they don't even know how to talk about it. So if you and I come in and say, hey, tell me your sales process. Uh, well, I go in and talk to the client and they buy. Well, you know, this doesn't help. And understanding how you do it will obviously help you help your employees or your salespeople do it. But if you don't know yourself, how the hell are you supposed to do it? So that's where often they have to take a step back, like you say, and what is your sales process? What is your process? What are you trying to achieve? So you almost have to break it down, um, to a point where they're analyzing themselves as a successful salesperson. And until they do that, and if they just say I'm a natural, like I do, I do this assessment and ask people, you know, da, da, da. And then whenever someone says I'm a natural from a leadership perspective, I'm like, oh, we have to dig deep into that. Because if you don't know why you're successful, there's no way you can help someone who's not having the same success. One and two, the guy that is successful, the girl that is successful, you don't really know why either because they're just good at it, which is fine if you fall on that person, but if you don't.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And yeah, there are unicorns out there. But, um, it's interesting as a case study that I've experienced somewhat recently in linking it more in terms of viewing. Did you work with Jessica Sorry.

Speaker A: Did you work with Jessica, too? No. I'm kidding.

Speaker B: Totally. I know lots of Jessica's.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Um, but in this case, we talked a little bit with a client of mine too, about. And I've seen it in multiple clients when we talk about building any sort of sales process. It also links closely to, um, the architecture of your organization in terms of your people, what we call an EOS world. Accountability charts. Right. If you don't know your process, how are you supposed to know the roles that need to be played to execute that process? Said process. And it's often a chicken and an egg kind of experience. But the other sales debate that I've seen owners have, and I've had discussions with them, um, about it is, you know, does your salesperson need to be this unicorn creature of an incredible charismatic hunter that can go out and bring in the kill or bring. Bring it back to the dentist? And do they also have to be technical experts on your product or service? And it's been an interesting conversation to have in the both ops and sales space at a higher level with executive teams and owners. And I've come to the recognition of late, specifically with very technical companies

Speaker A: who

Speaker B: have even brought engineers up to be salespeople. And it hasn't worked. Right. There's a, uh, charismatic, unexplainable panaz. That pizzazz

Speaker A: I like. You mix both panache and pizzazz.

Speaker B: I like completely like, just. I made a hybrid. I'm making up words now that a salesperson has to have. And usually your lead engineer who can talk to death about your product or service and go down a rabbit hole in detail. Is not that person stereotypical? Do the hunting. And when there's a structured sales process, uh, a scaling and growing organization, you can find a way to win a big client by utilizing both facets and forces in the business. Ridiculous example. Right? You have a great salesperson. They're going out for dinners, they're networking. They're out there in the world. They're. They're making connections. They've got a Rolodex, it's long. They land a sales meeting. That person does not have to be an expert yet on the product, but they have to get that person onto another meeting. Hey, Paul. You and I had a great rapport. I'm trust. Trust me, my biogenetics magical machine can make your life better. Here's how it does it. They have some basic speaking points. They have good positioning. They have a general understanding of the concept of how the magical box takes you from a to B, if there's more interest, the next step in that sales process could be, I'm going to bring in Bob. Bob will talk to your tech guy. Our tech guys will chat. It'll be great. We'll have lunch. The tech guys will chat and I'll bring in Bob, and Bob's gonna talk all details about the magic box. That's a sales process. And it means that you don't have to have a unicorn hunter. You have to have multiple people and multiple touch points to land that kill.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Yeah. That's a very good example of, um, categorizing the sales process. So you've got it right. So the hunter opens up the door, finds out the major pain points, has a discovery session too, and understands enough about the product to know that, hey, this is a good potential. And then you've got the whole, uh, discovery. And if there's a very technical discovery, well, then you'll bring in some expertise and then you've got the whole era where you're closing that. But you've also got three levels of sales types, right? Um, you've got the hunter who opens the door. And then you might have a different type of salesperson, a different type of structure where you've got a hunter and then you've got an account manager who sustains the account, uh, and grows it, a farmer. And then you've got the account manager, the sort of typical account manager that just sustains it. So you've got three levels of sales going on, but you've also got intensity in the technical, uh, knowledge. So you're right. If you've got some unicorn owner who got everything and, you know, it's got like the three sales types and understands the technicality, well, it might be too unicornish. And in her world, she may be saying, well, my sales seem shit because she's expecting them all to be engineers like her. And have the account manager. Sorry, have the, uh, account manager, the farmer and the hunter approach. And maybe that's too much, but if you can map it out and say, okay, realistically, you know, you can find a farmer that can do a little bit of account management. Okay. And then you can find an engineer that can do a little bit of account management. Um, but, you know, come in for

Speaker B: the sell, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah, but my engineers can't do the hunting, you know, so. So you need to, you structure it, then you become more realistic in your expectations.

Speaker B: Yes, exactly. And I think that's where a lot of business owners feel like their salesperson is failing them. Because often I've had them say to me, you know, oh, my salesperson doesn't understand the product enough. They don't understand the service or the product in detail. And they need. They think your salesperson needs to be the equivalent of your engineer, your biochemist to sell it. And that's not necessarily true if you have a highly effective sales process.

Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. And. And it's. It's. What is hard for that owner is that they don't realize that until they're told that. So they. They come up and say, well, why. Why isn't everyone like me? But once you. You map it out, it makes sense. So this is good. Okay, so I guess if we were to wrap this one up, uh, Alyssa, we would say to the owners, understand your sales process, understand what the benefits are to your company, and be realistic in what you have, what you expect of your sales team and of your operations team. And where do they divide? And look at what the. The look at what the market does for something that is scalable. And scalability often means, you know, giving people, uh, tasks that are, uh, specific to what is easy for them to do. I don't know if that makes sense, but, like, a salesperson sticks to sales and the operations person sticks to operations, and the engineer sticks to engineering, whatever it might be. But then it becomes much more scalable. I don't know. How would you wrap it up? Because we also have another topic we want to talk about.

Speaker B: I agree. Um, yeah, I would say that, too. I think. I think it's a combination of having a defined process of how you. How. How a client experiences your business across the board. I refer to as customer journey mapping. But it's incredibly valuable exercise to do. And then from there, yeah, you're mapping out the roles and responsibilities of jobs that need to be done to accomplish that task. And then from there, when we talk about hiring again, we barely. I think we scratched the surface here on all the issues that I think sometimes business owners have with their sales team. But another piece is just not really hiring for the right description of what you really need them to actually be good at and capable of doing.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So there's a lack of a clear clarity in the role and responsibility, even at the onset of hiring. And then. Then someone will fail you as well or struggle in the deep end. Um, yeah. And then another quick question to Paul. Do we have, timing wise, do we want to go. Do we have another, like, few minutes for our.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah, for sure. I just. I didn't want to. I didn't want to hog up all the time on our, on our other subject, but, um. Yeah, for sure.

Speaker B: I think we're good. I think if we roll for another 10 minutes on this one.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: All right, Good. All right, let's keep going.

Speaker B: Yeah, let's keep going. Um, so I guess the next piece too is, um. Next question is, um. We've kind of touched on everything, but what other ways. What are other root causes of owners feeling that their sales team is struggling? What are some other reasons. So we've mapped out already that we recognize we're expecting may too much of our hunter. We've recognized that we maybe haven't given them enough tools to sell effectively being clear positioning or a sales process. What are some other ways that you found business owners feeling like their team is not delivering?

Speaker A: Um, it's, it's interesting because. Well, I want to, I want to approach two things here. One, we've touched upon it a little bit before and, and that, that's that the, the leadership or the ownership is incapable of looking at their business from a, uh, third party perspective. That is how employees or contributors or colleagues feel about the business. You know, if you're the owner, chances are it's your baby. It's like your, your child. Right. Whereas for your colleague or your employee, they don't see it that way. And if you've run this business since you're 18, you've never had a normal job. You don't even understand what it means to just have a job. So that's one root cause for sure. And the other root cause is, um. And, and it touches on another point that we want to talk about is it's not because you're an owner, you're a great salesperson and that you have employees, that you're a good leader. And leadership is, um, Leadership is definitely something that a lot of owners and business leaders don't understand. Um, and it's not. And the main thing in leadership to me that I've seen that I, that they need to work on and I want to touch that root cause first, is that they forget that their colleagues or their employees are actually human beings that have motivations and dreams and aspirations. And if you don't understand that and you're not able to connect those to what you're offering them as a job, you don't really understand them. If you don't understand them, you can't motivate them. If you can't motivate them, you're operating with a black box.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: So in getting to know them, in getting to understand them. Then you can move from training, training, training, training, which is what a lot of leaders do, to coaching to understand how your business, the owner's business, helps that employee or that salesperson move forward in their life.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: How it helps them achieve their dreams and aspirations. And a good leader knows that. So we talked about structure, systems and accountability. So if you have that, if you have, if you understand how the business needs to run, which is very important, your CRM tools, uh, who does what, you know, categories. But on top of that, you understand what drives that person to want to come to work. And you can help them understand the specific silos they might be working in. I hate that term, but sometimes it's a reality. Then you can help them grow and you can help them get better at what they do. And then you're a true leader, because the leader. Oh, uh, you know, it's been said a million times, but a good leader helps you achieve your objectives, doesn't just help himself or herself achieve their objectives. I don't know. That was a long winded one. I'm sorry, but does that make sense?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's true. And I agree. And I'll, I'll expand a bit too, on accountability, which sometimes feels confusing to people because it's like, what does that mean? What does that look like? Um, accountability sometimes feel like micromanaging. And most SMEs, you know, pride themselves on not being micromanagers. Right there. It's good to work here. There's only 15 of us, there's only 20 of us. I don't micromanage. I give my team space, I trust them, I give them autonomy. But what happens is, and I joke a lot of times that businesses kind of, especially small businesses, operate like a family. Right. If you think of employees, and this is belittling employees in a way that I don't mean to, but it gives it a reference and it's a good context. I think in my experience of if employees are kind of like your kids, right, who you have, uh, a responsibility to, who you're expecting to deliver to a certain degree, but it's your job to lead them and support them. And kids work better in a structured environment, Right. If you think about a toddler, they want to know when their snack is, when their lunch break is, what they're expected, what's expected of them, when we're driving, when we're arriving, Right. So the more structure and support, and I don't mean big brother, I don't mean like, I mean like structure in, ah, a loving, caring, human way, the more your team will thrive. So in my world, especially in the EOS space, accountability is in the form of a very simple, effective weekly meeting. And that's the biggest accountability tool that I work with, with clients. And it really is a matter of helping your team understand expectations, helping them week by week in one hour of your time. So it's not all the time. You don't have to be popping over their cubicle. You don't have to be spending the majority of your time doing this. It's one hour, 90 minutes, 90 minutes a week. You're tapping in with them and you're holding them accountable to the actions they've been driven to do via metrics, via objective facts. And you're uncovering if they're able to do it or if they're not. And you're offering them support if they can't, and you're rewarding them if they can. And a good salesperson, your type a sales sales hunter, wants recognition, wants a bonus in reward, and is okay with being held accountable to their deliverables. A bad salesperson doesn't want any of that. And that's a sign that you don't want that person on your team because they will be probably a shit salesperson.

Speaker A: You know, it's so true, and it's true that accountability is often misunderstood and you described it very well. One thing I like to do as well when I'm working with sales teams, um, is I like once, let's say the sales people have been there for a while, over six months, and they're doing okay, but you want them to create some kind of plan for the following year. What I like to say to leaders is let them build their plan. Don't give them their plan, let them build their plan. Then hold them accountable to that plan. If you agree with it, obviously, and what I like, and we give the children analogy, we often give the children analogy because a lot of leaders treat their employees as children and it's not good. As you just said, I prefer the sports team analogy or the band, the, the musical group analogy. Whereas if you're the singer and the drummer and the bassist and the guitarist are not playing the same thing, it's not going to sound very good. So yeah, you might be the singer up front leading, talking to the crowd, but you need that team. If you're the quarterback on a football team and uh, you know your long receiver is never catching the pass, you're not going to do very well. So it's more about working as a team and everyone understanding being accountable for what they need to do. And that is so important. And I'm, um, very happy you brought it up because I think we could probably do a podcast just on accountability, but the tools for accountability. What I would like to say. So there's a few things I want to really talk about here. If you want to be a good leader, think about, go research and think about once they've been trained on the product and whatnot. Think about coaching. And coaching is about asking questions to your team members about how they should be doing things before you just tell them, you know, at a high level. And a good leader is also coaching your team to move forward. Now, if you're the leader of the company, you also have vision, you also drive. We can talk about that in other podcasts. You're driving the company a certain direction. And the other thing that's important and you've talked about a lot is if you have accountability is you need to have a plan. What's that plan? The plan is based on actions that you need to do that you control, particularly in sales. If you're just saying to someone, I want you to hit that big number and they don't have a plan to get there, well, they could do whatever they want willy nilly. As long as they hit the number, you're happy. And if they don't, they don't. Well, then that's, that's a recipe for disaster. If you say to them, what are the actions you need to do to get there? Then then you can keep them accountable on the actions that bring them forward to those numbers. And that's really important. So your sales team being shit is often because you're a shitty leader and you don't have good accountability and you don't have good systems in place and you're not empowering for action and you just don't get it and you don't understand your root causes. So generally, if your team is shit and they've always been shit, it's because you're shit. And I hate to say it, but there we go.

Speaker B: But we love you and we don't need to be. But yeah, 100%. Yeah. With love. Uh, no, it's very, it's totally true. And I think, I think it really helps. Uh, I think you can get better.

Speaker A: You may be shitty, but you can get better. Because if you're open minded, I'll be honest, I have been the shittiest sales leader in the world in the past. And by realizing all this, you get better. Sorry I cut you off. Continue.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I agree. I think it's a matter of being self aware and learning and seeing what you can do to improve the situation. And I do feel like if you've set yourself up and your team up for maximum success, then it does become very clear too, when you may actually have, uh, a dud. Right. Maybe you did hire someone that's not a fit for the organization. Maybe you did hire someone that's too junior, really not able to cut it. But unless you have objective metrics and a formalized system around them, you can't objectively assess whether it's them or you. So if you're doing everything you can to up level yourself and your business, to support your sales hires or any hire to begin with, from there you can be like, I've done everything I think I possibly can, from accountability to support, to clarity, to systems, to processes. Then you can have a real conversation of, I don't think you're a fit. And that's one of the things I think that often is talked about a lot where small business owners take too long, too quick to hire, too slow to fire. And I think in the context of sales, that can happen a lot. Where we want to keep pushing them, we want to keep hoping, and we just bang our head against the wall being like, they're not delivering. Uh, and if you have done your homework and you know your system works and you know salespeople can succeed in it, then it's pretty easy to find those that aren't a fit and you can help them move along to something else faster.

Speaker A: All right. Yeah, 100%. You're nice. You're blaming other people than the owners. That's the.

Speaker B: Well, you are. I can be good cop, you can be bad cop. And we'll switch next podcast.

Speaker A: Cool. All right. Hey, did we want to talk? Do we want to talk about our second subject or not?

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I think we pause it here. Let's do a close out, which now we're going to. We're going to have to edit this.

Speaker A: We don't have to. No, we don't have to do anything. This is fine. We want you to close that. Okay, thanks, everyone. We're not editing anything, Elissa. These are the fun parts. This is why people listen to the podcast for the weird parts.

Speaker B: Do they? Okay, let's roll into the next one.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Um, so keep listening, team, we've got another one for you. Or take a break as you like. It's. It's up to you because these will be in two separate files in your favorite podcast listening platform.

Speaker A: Experience. Experience.

Speaker B: Thank you. Okay, topic number two. Um, what was topic number two?

Speaker A: I have it here.

Speaker B: Okay, good. I don't have questions for it, so we'll just.

Speaker A: That's okay. We can. Well, I think we both.

Speaker B: Oh, meetings. We're talking about meetings.

Speaker A: Yeah, I have. You said. I like the way you said. He said I have meetings for my meetings. So basically too many meetings. You have meetings to plan your meetings and. And um, yeah, I'll let you intro this one. I have a ton to say about it, but I want to hear your perspective first because, uh, it was very interesting when we were warming up before the podcast.

Speaker B: Yeah, totally. I have a question though. Um, logistics, production. Question. Are we making these two separate podcasts? Are we rolling into it as one?

Speaker A: No, let's roll into it as one.

Speaker B: Okay. Listeners, Subjects, keep following along.

Speaker A: That's the first one. We're testing it out and if it's too long, we'll split into two in the future. But you know, this is a conversation. I'm very, I'm privileged to have a conversation with an extremely intelligent human being who is bringing, uh, stuff forward. So let's just cram it in there. I think we could.

Speaker B: Aren't you lucky? Same, same. Um, okay, thanks. So we get. A lot of times both of us have encountered this with clients and business owners we talk to and also with, I would say team members. Right. Again, working for an SME M mid sized small business. Sometimes it feels like we just are talking in circles and sometimes it feels like we have meetings for our meetings or our important work gets derailed by meetings or conversations or interactions of people popping into our office, popping in our cubicle, popping on our slack, chat, whatever we want, um, and derailing us. So the concept is it feels like we have meetings upon meetings and in particular when I implement a management system with companies, one of the most important tools is a, uh, very structured and highly effective 90 minute weekly meeting. And I often get pushback on it because like, oh, we don't want to have a 90 minute meeting. Why would we want to add another meeting to our schedule? We already have meetings for our meetings and, and my response to that usually is, well, uh, are they very effective? Because they're probably not very effective if you have to have a meeting for your meeting or you have to have snowball conversations following what seems like a conclusive meeting. But if you reframe the meetings you're already having in a very strategic, highly effective way. It reduces the amount of chatter, the amount of side conversations and, and the amount of lack of clarity that the meetings upon meetings often derail issues or conversations or actions into.

Speaker A: Yeah, um, I like to, I like to back into root causes on meetings as well. Um, and this is something I've seen in small, medium size and enterprise size businesses. Right? You see it everywhere. Um, and it seems to me that meetings, and I don't know, maybe you see it the same way, but to me, when you have too many meetings, it's sort of a way of hiding disorganization. Um, you know, you're just ramming a bunch of people in a room because you don't really have a structure, you don't really have a system, you don't have proper accountability. So it's like, okay, let's just get everyone in a room and decide what we're doing. Okay, well we talked about this last week. Okay, Someone else has an idea. Okay. So it can often be lack of leadership, lack of structure, lack of organization. And let's be honest, we're all human beings. When your company grows, when you scale, everyone lacks leadership, everyone lacks structure, and everyone lacks organization. It's a normal process. So the first, the first growth pain is let's have a lot of meetings to make sure everything, you know, works well together. And the extrovert, you know, there's extroverts, introverts, extroverts like meetings because they talk, they're in a group and the introverts hate them because it takes them away from the focus thing that they're supposed to do. Now I understand the leader that says, well, we got to have more meetings because we're not, you know, we need to readjust all, all the time. It's like traveling on a bumpy road and they're trying to go around the potholes continuously. So all these meetings come in. So the root cause there of the many meetings is often very valid. It's like, hey, we need to figure out where we're going. But the problem is often not the meeting. The problem is often, well, why are you having these meetings and what is it that you're trying to achieve? Um, so when I talk to a salesperson that says, oh, uh, we have too many meetings. And I often, I always, I always ask the same questions. Why do you feel that way? Well, I'm just trying to sell and you know where my manager wants to meet me three times a week and talk about this and Talk about my pipeline. And I'll say, well, why do you think they want to talk about your pipeline? Well, we're not doing so well. Okay, so, well then why do you think they want to talk to you? So, so I often, I think you need to understand the root cause of those meetings to try to reduce them. And do you need 25 people in a room, um, to discuss certain things? Well, oh, I don't want them to feel excluded. I want everyone to have a voice. Well, yeah, but then you're also disturbing a bunch of people. So it's a tough one. But you need to understand the root causes first. And I guess on that point, what have you seen as being the root causes of too many meetings in, in your, in your, in your experience so far?

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, it's funny you mentioned root cause because that leads to. I think the biggest reason why a lot of times meetings upon meetings happen is because teams aren't effectively solving problems. Right? They're having. You have a meeting to solve a problem inevitably like, or to uncover some information you're having or come to a conclusion, whatever that is. You're having a meeting for a reason. But what happens is they actually don't end up leaving the meeting with a solution or action steps at the end. You end up just talking in circles. And I think we're going to have the topic on this in terms of problem solving in its own right, as a podcast as well. But I think that's the biggest reason why meetings are ineffective, because people aren't very good at actually problem solving or talking and coming up with conclusions or solutions that they then actually can activate into the business. The other piece I think is that often meetings aren't well structured. Right. We get into a room and we kind of willy nilly talk without a lot of structure. And you alluded to this, I think at a very basic level. And this happens, you're right. At an enterprise level, we had this happen at Unilever where we had to have meeting rules come into play of like every time you book a meeting, here's the structure of how you need to run them and here's what you need to do in advance so that they were more productive. And at a very basic level, as far as tips and recommendations, I would encourage everyone to make sure there is an objective, uh, outlined of what we want to get out of this meeting. At the end of it, there's an agenda of some sort of what we're going to be focused on talking about. And there's a section where somebody documents the solutions, the actions and the outcomes that come out of that meeting and people are actually assigned to do those things in the business before you leave that room.

Speaker A: Yeah, And I think that's great. So can you run through those? Because I really like it. Do you believe in that structure?

Speaker B: Well, from an EOS perspective, L10s I've seen actually transform businesses. So that's a very structured meeting that takes a little longer to get into in detail. I'm giving you kind of.

Speaker A: But let's say what if you just top line, what would you suggest there? Because I really like that. What would you say? Could you re enumerate those?

Speaker B: Well, I think at a leadership level alone, and I don't know, it depends on where the meetings are happening. But meeting structure and proper meeting hygiene, we'll call that, for lack of a better word, comes from the top. So if the owner knows how to run and structure and execute an effective meeting, they can teach that to the team. So it starts at the top, like everything in a business, right? It starts with the owner and the executive team being good at effectively running their own meeting. Once they're good at doing that, then they can start to teach it and implement and action it amongst the L1, L2, L3 levels of management. Yeah, it all starts from the top. So it comes from a place of an owner understanding. And L10s are a nice way to start because they're a very structured, specific type of meeting of how to run meetings with your executive team. And I've seen, once L10s get running, again, very similar, have a specific agenda. There's different sections, they end and start on time. The majority of the time is spent problem solving issues in the business that are preventing them from moving forward. And then action steps are assigned at the end of that meeting. And that happens every week. And that keeps a leadership team on track. And I've had actual testimonials of people coming back to me saying, alyssa, I didn't know what to do with myself. I literally didn't have to do anything until the next L10 because all I did was table it. And then we talked about it and then it was gone. And I didn't have to talk to Bob and his cubicle and Joe and her cubicle.

Speaker A: And by the way, L10 is a name of a meeting in the US world. That's, that's, that's what we're talking about. So a meeting that recurs. It's. It's a level at the executive level. So what you're saying if I was to summarize it just for the person listening to us who doesn't know EOS or is trying to make their meetings better, it's, you know, have an agenda. Uh, what are you trying to solve and what are the actions to solve that and when does it need to be done by?

Speaker B: Right, yeah, yeah. So have an objective. Why are we meeting often that's lacking yourself. Why are we meeting? Why are we in this room? What are we looking to accomplish?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Agenda. Rough of. Here's what I'm thinking. We're going to talk about three bullet points. Doesn't have to be much. And then an actual section, whether it's on a digital whiteboard, put it electronically, please do not keep it on a whiteboard in your office. Please do not put it on a piece of paper that will be left on a wall. Make sure everyone documents then the actual action steps in a real place that can be referenced day to day to make sure that the team is held accountable to getting their assigned test done. And action steps and tasks or solutions, whatever you want to call them should be assigned at the end of the meeting. So that problem, that issue, that objective is achieved and never spoken of again.

Speaker A: Yeah, and um, you've done this more than, than I have in establishing this. And, and I, uh, like that. So what you're saying is that for most, nothing's perfect, but for most, this really helps people to be a lot more organized and structured in their meetings. But I also imagine that in a way reduces the necessary amount of meetings

Speaker B: one, ah, hundred percent. It completely reduces meetings. Um, because not only are you solving problems and assigning things within the meeting, but you're also something comes up in between your weekly meeting. And uh, most companies have weekly meetings. Like almost every company I come into has to some degree a weekly meeting. Either executive level, a sales weekly meeting, an ops weekly meeting, an engineering weekly meeting, they all have weekly meetings and then they have these other meetings. If you have a highly effective weekly meeting, you do not have to have the other meetings because what you're doing also is tabling whatever you'd otherwise discuss in your ad hoc meeting to the next week. And usually, I guarantee you, unless the building's on fire, it can wait. And a lot of times when people pause on an issue or a fire starting or an implosion or a struggle that showed up on their desk that day, and they actively have to do something about it, if they just write it down and leave it, sometimes it actually goes away on its own. Or you come up with a solution by yourself or you just have a beat to think about it. And what happens is teams often raise those issues up the food chain. So as a result VPs and owners in small businesses get hit with that fire all the time. So they feel like they're constantly firefighting, they're constantly supporting, they're constantly being pulled down in the day to day operations because their team is not well equipped to self manage the things that come up.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good point. Um, can I make a really simple analogy? So if you have a 10 year old who, for whom you always prepare their snacks and they come home, they say I'm hungry, I'm hungry. Well you've got to go prepare the snacks. If you teach them how to prepare their own snacks, then they're going to do it. So this also is teaching the team on how to prepare their own snacks. They're thinking, they're not just, they know, okay, at the end of, you know, next week I'll be able to talk about it. But hey, I think I can work this one out myself. Um, and that's also an accountability and structure and an organization, right? Because I think if you're not properly structured, organized, you don't have the proper systems in place and you don't have proper accountability, doesn't matter what meeting structure you put in place, it's going to fall apart.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Do you agree?

Speaker B: And for larger organization it creates a uh, uniformity across functions and departments of how they talk and how they run meetings. So I've seen it happen at large organizations of like a thousand people with everywhere from one to three levels of management, like three levels of management, uh, VPs, L1, L2, L3 I've now seen, because everyone's speaking the same language, having similar weekly meetings. Now at an L2 level or an L1 level they can have the finance person who's getting ornery, let's say at the tech person or the ops person, they can now at an L2 level, at a manager level, not director, not VP, can now have a meaningful similar conversation with each other using tools and the same meeting structure to solve their own problems. So that no longer has to be escalated to their bosses, which used to be what happened. Or functions would pit against each other and there'd be this grumbling of like they couldn't solve their own problems. So it get elevated and then ignored because it wasn't a priority.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Makes, makes a ton of sense. So I guess what we're saying is, um. Sorry, sorry. I guess what we're saying essentially is if you have a proper structure to your organization and have a proper structure to your meetings, you will solve your meetings meeting problem.

Speaker B: It's a start. It's genuinely start. It's not, you know, there's no real magic wand. But having more intentional meetings, having genuine outcomes and action steps that are assigned to real people, to your point, with timelines, and then they're held accountable to doing the work, means that that issue gets solved in the business. Yes, another meeting will come up. But you get really good at rocking through meetings and accomplishing what you've sought out to do. The more you practice it, it's a skill. It's like, again, going, uh, to the gym, learning to ride a bike. You get better at running efficient meetings.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: Then you have less, because if you're good at it, it happens fast and problems don't arise as much.

Speaker A: Yeah, um, yeah, I like that. So, so what would we, if we were to summarize it and give a quick sort of executive, uh, answer to that, of what we've seen and how to solve it. You know, you're talking to someone, you've got two minutes to tell them how, um, to make their meetings better. What would you say?

Speaker B: Make an objective. Know why you're making a meeting and explain it to the people you're having a meeting with. Give yourself a really rough agenda that gets shared with people in advance so they know what they're coming into. And make sure you document and assign action steps out of it.

Speaker A: Cool. I like it. That's great. Good stuff. Alyssa. We're good. Is there. How do we want to wrap this up? A song dance?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, um, I don't know. I don't know how to wrap up a podcast. I'm not very good at that. You do it. You're good at it.

Speaker A: I'll do it. So, first of all, I think we went through a lot of really good stuff. Um, meetings, uh, team, uh, happiness, uh, or ownership. Happy with the team. Team satisfaction. And, you know, the thing I like the most about this is that your experience and my experience comes from tried and true, uh, working with people who've had these experiences. You know, we're not just riffing off, uh, what chat GPT tells us. Um, so what I would say to leaders is take the time to understand why you're having meetings. Listen to exactly to what Alyssa said about structuring your meetings properly, and ask yourself, if you're dissatisfied with your team, what is really going on. Break it down and understand the steps to getting there. So again, thanks everyone for listening. We'll, ah, be back in a month with more great, uh, subjects. Um, in the meantime, keep listening to the podcast. Have a great one. Thanks, everyone.

Speaker B: Bye, everyone.