Talking recruitment with Harmeen Johal founder of Talencia

Speaker A: Oh, my goodness.

Speaker B: Hello, everyone. Um, thanks for coming to the podcast. Uh, today I have a special guest, someone who I've collaborated with in the past a little bit. We've talked a lot, and we always laugh and we always have great conversations, and we'll probably not be as spicy as we normally are when we're not being recorded. When we're not recording our conversations.

Speaker A: Um, you might have to edit that.

Speaker B: Yeah, you see, I'm not editing that. Arming. That's staying in there. So, Harmine, Joe hall, expert in recruitment, um, really interesting human being. And I wanted to have a conversation with her. So thanks, Harmin. Uh, thanks for being with us. Uh, maybe just a quick note, uh, I wanted to say, or I wanted to mention to everyone, is that Harmin's been doing recruitment for what, over 15 years? 10 years? Almost.

Speaker A: Almost. Almost up to, like, 14 years now. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: And Harmony comes from recruitment, from a really different aspect of how I came to recruitment. A lot of you are probably saying, paul, recruitment. What are you talking about? Well, I do recruitment. I do mostly sales consulting, but I've. I've come to recruitment through the sales consulting portion because I was evaluating people, working with people. Some of my clients started saying, hey, Paul, uh, you know, uh, can you recruit people for us? And I kind of find a passion for it. And I have a specialty in sales recruitment. And Harmine and I were talking. I don't know when did we talk for the first time? I mean, it was probably a couple months ago.

Speaker A: It was like, in March, I think.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I felt like we were coming from different planets. And it was so exciting to me because it was like, wow, she doesn't like this, and I like that. And we're so different, but we also hire different roles often. Right, Harming?

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. So I specialize mostly in accounting and finance, administrative roles, hr. But I have to say, um, I will just mention a little bit about myself, so.

Speaker B: Yes, absolutely.

Speaker A: So in the industry for almost 15 years now, started, um, really with an agency, recruitment. So that was a little bit different, um, compared to you, obviously. And then I recently launched my own company back in March, uh, called Talentsia. And I was mentioning that I was specialized mostly in accounting and finance and administration, but I've come to realize that I can pretty much headhunt anything. Right. So I think as a headhunter, and I think it's the same for you. I know that you've touched on different roles. Roles as well. But, uh, yeah, as a headhunter, I think, yes, it's good to have specializations. But if you're truly a good headhunter and you have a really big network, I think, and you have good resources, you can recruit pretty much anything.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think you're right. The reason, for me, the reason I've specialized is because, um, if I stay in my core, which is sales, it's a lot easier for me. The tools that I have provided permit me to do it a lot faster. And I've got a lot of automation myself, but like I said, I'm not. My business per se does sales recruiting, but it's really because of the whole sales experience. So it's kind of interesting. And I also do it from. I do a lot of automation, which you do differently. So I found that fascinating. And today though, what I wanted to talk about. And I have a few questions for you. Yes, and you can tell me, um, and one of the questions I had for you, because everyone's talking about it, um, and I have some opinions on it, but more. My opinions are more based on the fact that I don't know where this can take us. Everyone's talking about AI all the time, and I don't know, like me. And I want your opinion on this too, but I'll just quickly. I don't want to put you on the spot. So just to tell you where I'm coming from. I find AI such a strange, um, idea, particularly in recruiting, because I have a hard time imagining at this point. Maybe I'm, Maybe I'm naive, but I have a hard time imagining at this point an AI bot doing as good a job in a conversation, asking interview questions and going through all of what we go through, like, thinking, oh, okay, are they telling us the truth? Uh, will they be a good fit with my client?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And that's where I personally. Maybe I'm naive, but I personally have a hard time imagining AI in the next couple of years being able to do that as well as we can. And I was wondering, what's your opinion on that?

Speaker A: Well, I agree with you. I don't think that I will be able to replace recruiters, that's for sure. Um, at the end of the day, we are dealing with human beings. Um, I think that there will be ways of going around it if candidates start understanding how to really formulate their cvs, um, to make sure that they're not being blocked by certain companies. When companies are screening the CVs, a lot of these large public companies are using, um, ATS systems. And oftentimes the companies can kind of choose their Screening requirements. I'm talking really large public companies. I'm not necessarily talking about SMEs, um, but I do have an example. Um, my husband actually went through this just last year where he came from agency with. With over 12 years of experience in recruitment, and he decided he wanted to leave the agency world and go towards more of a corporate recruiter. And he was applying on positions at large public firms, and he was getting rejection after rejection for. For honestly no reason. It wouldn't even make sense. And in one of these large manufacturing companies, public companies here in Montreal, um, I knew the hr, one of the head hr, and I sent her a message and said, hey, just letting you know, you guys rejected my husband's profile. Take a look at it. Yeah, uh, what happened? And she's. And she was shocked. She said, oh, my gosh, this is our ATS system that's not screening the candidates. That is basically screening the candidates due to keywords. And your husband does not have enough keywords on his CV to get him through to the next level. Or they're picking up words like, you know, he might have had manager or management on his cv, so they might have thought he was overqualified, so they were overlooking him.

Speaker B: Okay. Yeah.

Speaker A: So that's kind of my idea of AI. I mean, in terms of the actual interviewing and stuff. I mean. Oh, my God, that's like, way.

Speaker B: I don't know what you're saying now too, is that even at that point, it's kind of failing because it. For example, I know it's anecdotal.

Speaker A: They're losing out on candidates.

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, they're losing out on a candidate like your husband. Did he find a job, by the way?

Speaker A: He did, but let me tell you, through referral, at the end of the day, through human connection. So for me, I really feel that, like, recruitment as much as. Yes, there are some tools in AI. I use a couple of tools in AI at the moment for my recruitment. So the two ways I utilize it is I will generate a job description through chat.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: If I need to, or if I need to enhance one or shorten one down. Um, and the other way I use AI is really through my approach, um, with passive candidates when I'm headhunting. So I noticed, um, I used to do my own messaging, let's say, on LinkedIn, when I was sourcing a candidate and headhunting a candidate that was passive and my personal message just didn't seem to cut it. And then I realized when I was using LinkedIn's AIs, generated message that they were offering to me. And then it would work. All of a sudden I would have this great return. And I realized, okay, this is a really great tool right now because I'm trying to use this kind of human, you know, kind of approach, but it doesn't seem to be working so well. Or maybe my approach is not so human, possibly. Uh, and then, you know, LinkedIn and indeed have been really great at generating the AI messaging. So those are the two ways that I use AI at the moment.

Speaker B: Oh, that's, that's great. So, so, you know, and I'm like, you too. I use it to a certain extent and, and it's interesting because it's a conversation that's going to obviously progress a lot in the next couple of years and it'll be interesting. But I, I'm happy. That's. That's a great take. And I, I have essentially the same experience with it and using it in little bits and bytes here and using it for writing out the, the ad that you're putting out there to attract the candidates makes a huge difference. Hey, I want to back up a little bit, Harmine, because I realized, uh, and I want to talk about this and I wanted to us, uh, to warm us up on a question, but maybe I'd like you. And we've talked about this a little bit before, and I don't want it to sound clunky, but tell. And I found the first time I spoke to you, I found this really fascinating. Tell me like the version you're comfortable in a couple of minutes. Tell me how you came to starting your own recruitment business. Because I know you were in an agency and I know a few years ago, and I don't want to let the cat out of the bag, but I want the audience to hear, or the listeners, the viewers to hear from you, how your mindset of saying, I'm in this position, I'm doing this for someone else, I'm gonna now do it for myself. And I want you. I'm going to point it out, but I want you to tell us about the things that stressed you out and what, what prompted you to say, you know what, uh, it's going to be okay. I'm going to try it out.

Speaker A: Yeah. So as mentioned, in the industry for almost 14 years and 13 out of those 14 years, I did work for a large public firm, you know, multinational agency recruitment, um, where I did move up a little bit. I was director towards the end. I had done strategic sales there. Mostly I was specialized in recruitment there. Um, and I was good. I was one of the top sellers for sure.

Speaker B: Um, I have no problem believing that.

Speaker A: Yeah. So, you know, and I, I made quite a lot of money. Right. I mean, you can make quite a lot of money even coming from agency when you're working for someone. Um, and over the years I often had the same territory. So I. Which was. Well, I don't need to go into that, but so anyways, um, all to say that I had created a really large network. And yes, I specialize in accounting and finance, but I also did some engineering. I started in administrative support. So I touched on different aspects of recruitment throughout those 12 years at this multinational company. Um, and then I did hit a bit, a bit of a wall after having children. I had two children back to back. Two, two baby boys. And when I did go back, it was a very busy time for the company and I ended up going on a burnout. So I ended up just kind of hitting a wall. I had my best year ever. I think it was like 20, 22. Best year ever. Top sales made, ever made. It was wonderful. Um, and then all of a sudden I crashed and, and I realized there was a few aspects of it. Um, and you know, unfortunately, when you are in these large public companies, a lot of times there can be a bit of a toxic environment. Sometimes with the sales. Sales environment can be a little bit toxic. You know, there is, um.

Speaker B: Don't pick on sales. I'm just kidding.

Speaker A: You know, there is that competition piece, right? I mean, there is that competition and unfortunately, uh, you know, it does happen that there's going to be a bit of a toxicity or you know, there's competition within the organization with your own colleagues that you're supposed to feel like, you know, a really big collaboration and there was like a. Lacking some of that collaboration. Also a bit of a lack of recognition. I felt on for myself. I really felt like I deserved more recognition. I was looking for that next promotion. I felt like I proved myself. Um, but unfortunately, you know, even if you think that's your timeline to grow, you know, you're. You're waiting on someone else to say, oh yeah, well, maybe we should promote her again or whatever it is. So at that point, I did take a few months off. I needed to kind of reset and, and kind of also I realized that I was working many, many hours and I realized that I wasn't giving enough time to my family either.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So that had kind of affected me and I thought, you know what, I'll take a Few months off. Let me just recenter figure out what's really important to me in my life. Um, not really. Almost a midlife crisis. I mean, I was, what, 38, 39 at the time when it happened, So I guess kind of like a midlife kind of situation. Um, and after that, I decided to return to the same company, and I removed myself from the recruitment, and I went into strategic sales of national accounts. That was super fun. I mean, it was a really great position that I held there, but I really missed that adrenaline piece. I really love recruitment. I'm super passionate about recruitment. I love the people side of things. I love matching. You know, I love understanding the client's needs, understanding what the candidate wants, and, you know, making that perfect match. That's like, you know, to me, that's. I just love it so much. Um, so I decided to leave the large public company and go on to a smaller firm, uh, in recruitment. And I don't want to get into a huge story about it, but, I mean, I did really great over there as well. I was only there for about, I think, six to eight months.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, really knocked it out of the park in terms of sales. And then I went. Actually, um, it started in January. I had gone for coffee with a colleague, an old colleague of mine.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: M. Who asked me, I just don't understand why you haven't gone out on your own yet. And literally, that was such a pivotal moment for me. I, uh, had never even thought it was possible to be honest. And how sad, right? The limitations that we kind of.

Speaker B: In your mind, you always had to be working for someone else. Or.

Speaker A: I think it was that sheltered. You know, I also come from a family of, you know, my. Both my parents worked, like, many, many years for the same companies. Always worked for people, always very hardworking, but they were not entrepreneurs. Although my brother, who, you know, Sean, he's an entrepreneur. So obviously, you know, I had him as an influence as well. I just never thought it was possible for myself.

Speaker B: Did Sean encourage you to start your own business, too? He must have.

Speaker A: Uh, so after the coffee chat that I had with this old colleague, um, I remember going home and I remember calling him right away and saying, I kind of have these two options in front of me. Either I could join this colleague who, you know, secretly, she was kind of wondering, hey, would you maybe would you come with me? Uh, or, you know, do I. Do I work for her and start her division, or do I just go out on my own because I have the network for it, and I Know that I'm capable. And uh, to be honest, I did kind of like a bit of an analysis of my last six months at the previous company. And when I saw that, basically I brought in all the business, the majority of it, I brought in maybe 8, 80, 85 of the business, no brainer. I recruited every position by myself. Not no help from anyone. So I kind of realized, you know what, I need to give this a try. Okay.

Speaker B: Was Sean encouraging of you? Where was he pushing you?

Speaker A: Sean was really, I mean, you know Sean, right? He's very good at um, you know,

Speaker B: kind of John, by the way, everyone all is a business consultant. Sean, Joe hall, he's harming sister. They, they're both brother people. Yeah, older brother, Right? Much older.

Speaker A: Older brother. That's it. So, so basically he was, you know, he's really good at being able to like put both cards on the table and kind of giving me the pros and cons of well, this is what's going to happen if you decide to go on your own. And this is what's going to happen if you want to work for someone else. And so, so it was really interesting and I feel like I literally slept on it that night. And the next day my mind was made and I, I was just so excited and I was like, oh my God, you know what? I have to do this. I think I need to work for myself. And yeah, I um, need that flexibility. I enjoy working on my own. I'm really good as a one woman show. You know, I don't know, maybe eventually I will hire someone in the future. I part of my plans at the moment. I just really enjoy working alone and I'm very good at it.

Speaker B: So that's kind of, that's great. It's good. Full disclosure. I remember Sean telling me that you were considering this before I even met you. And I remember him saying, I hope she goes in that direction because he really believed in you. So uh, I mean you probably know this, but it did come through me at one point and I remember him really believing you and saying you're great at this stuff, so it's good. Um, okay, I have another question for you. Back into recruitment. So, um, well, a question, something I want us to address. And I talked about you about this offline before and you're like, paul, uh, this is weird. I don't want to talk about this. And it was the way I saw it is the strangest experience or the, the most interesting experience or an experience that stands out as a recruiter like something you know, we've done. We've both done. I've hired a lot of salespeople. I've also hired a lot on the outside. I've got a few clients, actually, little. Little parentheses. I've got a few clients where I've gone really far off. And again, I'll start. I'll start the ball rolling on this one. Not to put you on the spot. Yeah. I've got one client who I started doing sales recruitment for. And the guy says, oh, you've done a really good job. And job. And he says, you know, you know so well. And I was also, because I do coaching. I was coaching one of the owners, and he said, would you help us? Because we're a little disorganized in our. In our recruiting. Would you help me hire a coordinator? Sure. So I hired an assistant coordinator. And then he says, would you hire a chemist? Like a chemist? Crazy. A chemist. I don't know anything about chemistry. So I kind of applied all of my automated stuff and I. I went in there, said, okay, I can't, you know, I'm not an expert in chemistry. I can't talk about that stuff. But I can find out if it's. If the person's a good human being and if they're reliable and if they're honest and if they have the proper background. We did some research, we put an evaluation together, we asked this person, and we ended up hiring this chemist who, I'm very happy to say, a year and a half later is still with this company. And it. For me, it was a strange experience because it was so far out of my wheelhouse. And it was so. It was almost scary because, like, like, I'm interested in chemistry. I'm interested in. And this person was developing formulas, um, for, um. Um, obviously an industrial process. And it was very fascinating, but I knew my limitations. And I think the reason it was okay for me is I was very honest with my client saying, I can do these things. I can't do these, so you're going to have to help me with those. And we brought it together and we ended up doing something.

Speaker A: I'm curious to know, how did you end up finding the person? Was it a headhunting situation or did you do just an active recruitment job posting and you had some applicants correct?

Speaker B: As you know, I think we'll talk about it because, you know, offline and I'll say it live, but it's a great question. Um, most of what I do is. Is just, you know, postings on. Indeed. It's it's an inbound process. I don't do a lot of headhunting. I'm doing a little bit of headhunting now for a position in the US A sales position that's very specific that I know really, really well because it's my background. And it's a sales. It's sort of. It's a senior sales position for a company I've been working with since pre. Covid. For almost. Almost six years. So it's almost like I'm part of that company. But in general, um, it's all inbound. And in this case, it was inbound. We put an ad up. We wrote the ad. We put some specific things that we wanted, and the people came to us and we had quite a few applicants. Yeah. Yeah. M. Yeah, it was very interesting. So tell me what. Tell me an experience that maybe threw you off. And it doesn't have to be strange, but just something you said. Yeah, this was really different. And including your old position, you know, if it could be a weird interview, it could be whatever. I just. I want to.

Speaker A: It was. So it's really funny. I was discussing with, um, my husband, who's in recruitment, one of my good friends who's also in recruitment. And I just. I'll be honest, I don't have a great memory. So, like, I don't know, I don't remember anything particularly strange about my recruitment. Um, and also mostly because I really did concentrate in accounting and finance. And I guess I was lucky that I didn't have so many. Sorry.

Speaker B: Those people are pretty straight.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's it. You know, very black and white. You know what we call them?

Speaker B: You know, that's brown socks.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's it. So, uh, you know, I didn't. But at the same time. Okay. Anyways, the two that. That kind of, like, struck me. Maybe not strange or out of the ordinary necessarily, but definitely memorable. Um, one is really linked to the power of connection. And it's something that I had recently posted about. Um, but when I was at this multinational company, I had. I was recruiting internally for this agency. I used to often recruit for their. Their internal accounting and finance team, and they were hiring for someone in accounts receivables. I met the perfect candidate on the spot. While the candidate was in front of me. I remember calling the manager up and saying, I have your person. She's sitting in front of me. And the offices were literally, uh, I don't know, 500 meters away from each other. The head office was in Vil Saint Laurent somewhere. And Then, and our office was really not far. And I literally was like, I'm sending her over to you, like, now. Can you meet her now? Pretty much. And they met her, they hired her, they loved her. Fast forward 12 years. She still was with the company for the whole 12 that I was there. And this was at the beginning of my career with this company. And she grew with the organization as I did, and we always stayed in touch. And she was a manager towards the end of it. And then, unfortunately, last year, she did get laid off, and she went with another company. And a few months ago. Well, a few months ago. A couple months ago, actually, just really recently, she reached out to me, needing my expertise, uh, wanting to work with me to recruit for her team. You know, she didn't call back the other agency where she was for 12 years, she called me.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, so I. I really feel like this power of connection.

Speaker B: That's a great example. What do you mean, I don't have a good memory? That's an amazing example.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, this one, it really struck me because, I mean, obviously it's a very proud moment for me that I felt like I had such an impact on her. She knew what a good recruiter I was, and she decided to trust me with another mandate for another organization putting herself on the line as well. You know, obviously, she's bringing me in to recruit for them. Um, and we did successfully end up placing someone. So that was. That was, I don't know, very memorable for me.

Speaker B: Which leads me to wanting to ask you something else. Um, so if we take ourselves out of the equation, because this is not a, you know, this is not an ad for you or me, but if we take ourselves out of the equation, what do you think? What do you think a client or a business or a prospect when they're thinking of hiring someone to help them recruit? Let's say they're doing it for the first time. What do you. What do you like? What do you suggest they look for? What do you like? Let's say they're in Australia and we can recruit it there, wherever. And what should they look for? What do you think they should look for in a recruiter to have success? I have some views, too, but I want to hear yours first. Yeah.

Speaker A: I, um, mean for myself. I mean, it's very difficult at first. I think the. The client, you know, the company will have to shop around a bit to see. Okay. I think the fit is very important.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: You know, to have someone who will take the time to meet the company, to Meet with them to ask the right questions, to get to know them, to understand their culture, understand what they're looking for, but also someone that's going to be able to guide and consult them, which I know that you're an expert at as well. Right. Um, so I think that's something that we both have going for us, is that we're very good at guiding and consulting and we have a lot of market insight.

Speaker B: Um, so from their perspective it's look for someone who you fit with, someone who you can have, who understands your business, who understands what you're looking for more than just a position.

Speaker A: I mean, I'm, uh, not sure if they realize that at the very beginning, but once they meet with the right recruiter, they'll be like, this is what I'm talking about. This is the person I need to work with. So I think that it might come with a bit of time that, you know, there's plenty of companies that have had bad experiences with recruiters, but the ones that have the good experience with the recruiter, generally it has to do. It comes down to communication, transparency, uh, super important transparency, being able to have that honest conversation and be able to tell the client, for example, your salary is not within the market requirements. You're going to have trouble finding someone if you don't maybe upgrade the salary or if you're flexible to take someone more junior at the salary you're looking for, for example. You know, so I think that it's really about guidance. There is some expertise in there. However, I was thinking about this because, you know, specialization. Yes. You know, someone can come towards me, they know I'm very good with accounting and finance. But like you, I recently had a situation where ah, a client came up to me, wanted help with a recruitment for financial analyst role. No problem, we filled the role within a couple of weeks. Then a week later she says, harmine, I have another mandate for you. And I'm like, okay, what is it?

Speaker B: I.

Speaker A: And it's something called a quotation specialist. Um, and I'm like, okay, I'm like, can you please send me the job description? It's not something I've ever recruited or look at the job description. I'm like, I don't understand what this is, but I'm gonna find it for you. And uh, and I do have some expertise with my headhunting so, you know, making sure I ask the right questions, making sure I understand what they're looking for, what requirements they're looking for, how flexible are they. Um, and then I Headhunted, and I successfully filled the role within, I think, a week and a half. Um, and they just gave me.

Speaker B: That's one thing. I gotta press pause there. That's one thing that amazes me about you, is how quick you are. Like, you've said to me on a few roles that you can fill certain, I guess, more junior roles, like, within like a week sometimes, right? You're talking about an assistant role that you're like, filling in within a few days, right?

Speaker A: Oh, yeah. No, I think speed is really. I think one of my old managers used to call me, like, boom, boom, boom. Like, it was literally like one of those, like, within one week. Normally it would be like order intake on the Monday, presenting candidates on the Tuesday, interviews on the Wednesday, offer on the Thursday. I mean, this is not accepted Friday.

Speaker B: This is not normal. Like, you're not going to tell me. Oh, every recruiter is like this. Like you had that nickname. Like, how fast were the other recruiters in your company?

Speaker A: I mean, there was a couple of. That, I would say that could keep up with my pace. Not to. Not to toot my horn, but for sure, I think it's, uh. There's also an aspect of being organized, right? I mean, if you're well organized, um, and if you're efficient and if you know what you're doing, I mean, there's no reason why you can't fill a role pretty quickly. So, I mean, it's about.

Speaker B: But there are some roles that take more time. Like if you're looking for, I don't know, a senior, like when I'm looking for a senior salesperson, and it's very specific, uh, with very specific experience. I know sometimes it's going to take longer. Um, so. So for sure, like there, you know, there are some caveats there. If you're looking for a president for

Speaker A: a company, I agree entirely. Right now I'm working on two confidential roles. You know, controller and a financial analyst position for a company that we're not allowed to post the position. You want it to be completely confidential. And this is full, full headhunting. This takes time.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So, you know, I agree with you that, yes, the headhunting rules that are a bit more specific can take, um, longer, can take time. But, you know. Yeah.

Speaker B: And, uh, there's another, um, there's another question that comes up in my head. Um, you know, and just to adjust to, just chime in myself on how I think clients should choose someone to help them recruit or help them hire. Um, ask them questions. Right? Ask them how they function. Ask them how they work. Ask them how their processes, like, go into detail. Like, you know, there's no secrets here. That recruiting agency or that recruiter or that, that, that person that you're helping that's going to help you hire. Ask them how they're going to do it and, and what, what their guarantees are and what their fees are and

Speaker A: what it's based on, what their onboarding is. And I have spoken about quite a bit, yes, uh, super important to understand what their onboarding process.

Speaker B: Some people don't even offer onboarding. Right? So here's. You can do what you can, but

Speaker A: you and I and who they're reporting to, right? I mean, this is something you and I have also spoken about before is, you know, making sure that you understand what the manager is looking for. What type of management style do they have? Are they a micromanager or not? And, you know, so, yeah, let's hope

Speaker B: they're not a micromanager. Which brings me to my question, and this is so true. Onboarding, remuneration, coaching, all of the things that are going to be important for that employee to have success. Because it's one thing to find a great candidate, but if the company they're going into is not the greatest, you know, then, then, you know, you have to readjust. Which brings me to my next very sensitive, uh, topic. And this is something I haven't had to do a lot, but it's happened a few times. But have you ever not taken a mandate or fired a client because the values or the way they work is just so different than you?

Speaker A: So unfortunately, that actually happened a couple of months ago.

Speaker B: Um, no names.

Speaker A: No names. Absolutely not. But I was working with a client and I quickly realized, after having the conversations, understanding what it was that they were looking for, trying to work with them to adjust some of their requirements, you know, um, sorry. Some of it had to do with maybe the salary not being up to par or, you know, they were looking for someone that had the experience, but that was very junior. You know, they were kind of looking for a certain age demographic, but that already came with all of the experience. But they weren't paying more than what the market was paying. So, you know, at that point, you know, why would, let's say a junior controller leave one company to go to the other? I m mean, there has to be something in it for them at the end of the day. Um, and, you know, after sending a few very good profiles, realizing, um, that there was one person specifically within the process that seemed to be blocking, um, that wasn't allowing these candidates to get to the next step to meet with the president. Um, some candidates that I felt should have gotten the chance to meet with the president that I think the president might have liked, but unfortunately, this one person was kind of just like blocking the process. So after about, maybe them meeting about five candidates, which is quite a lot, Right. In our industry, I mean, we don't. We don't like sending 10, 20 profiles. That's not what we do. Right. I mean, we send 5, 5 maximum, like niche, very good profiles. Um, I just quickly realized, wait a second. I don't think this is going to work here. Like, this is. I'm being blocked. They were refusing to with me at their office. I told them I needed a meeting at their office. I want to come see your office. I want to come understand what you guys are doing. I want, you know, I would even love to be able to meet the president, who this person will, you know, be collaborating with. And it was like, you know, a lot of blockages. And I think companies need to understand that if you want to work with a recruiter, it's a partnership.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And it's really important for us to truly understand what it is that you guys are looking for. And we have to go visit on site sometimes or we have to, you know, we do a lot of virtual stuff these days. But visiting on site is amazing, and it changes the perspective of everything. Being able to see, you know, where is this person going to work? What is, you know, even just what does the cafeteria look like? What is, you know, there's like, little perks that maybe the, uh, company that

Speaker B: help you talk to the candidate. Right? Yeah.

Speaker A: Like selling features too, right?

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. The selling features to. To the individual who's, you know, if they're looking for a closed office, well, then you can mention that if they're looking for an open office.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: You can mention the character of the president. No, I totally agree with you. It's very interesting. Um, I guess in my world, what's really interesting, and I think you do it as well, is I really take the time to get to know my client, to understand what the objective of the hire is. And what do I mean by that? I mean, if I'm helping you find a salesperson most of the time or another position, like I help one person find a technician and an assistant, it's always, what's this role? How is this role, particularly in an SME or an SMB, uh, what's this role, uh, going to do for your company, what are you hoping that this person's going to achieve? That way, when I'm talking to people, I'm imagining myself as the manager or the president or the person leading this person. And I understand the objectives of the company, so it's a lot easier for me to connect. So like you just said, if I go visit the company, if I talk to the president, if I talk to the people, it's so much easier to put myself in that seat. And if they're not willing to do that, first of all, it's really weird that they would not let you do that. And secondly, well, it just doesn't let you do your job properly. So I, I, I fully understand and agree 100% with that situation.

Speaker A: Yeah, it was unfortunate, but I did have to let them go in the end. Even though it was a very big placement, I could have made lots of money. At the end of the day, there was just too much risk. Even if I did find someone for them eventually, if ever, it didn't work out with that person, which, it kind of, I got that vibe, you know,

Speaker B: that they were, uh, going to be

Speaker A: very picky about things. Um, it just wasn't worth the risk. So I had to let them go.

Speaker B: And I guess it's too early to say, but it'll be interesting to see who, who eventually lands there. Right? Because that's pretty important position. It'll probably be announced on LinkedIn or whatever, and it'll be interesting to see. Hopefully it's not one of the people you presented.

Speaker A: Well, I have contracts. If it is, I'm gonna charge them.

Speaker B: Exactly. Um, so Harmine, I want to, I want to again, back up a little bit. And so of course you're great at recruiting. You've got a passion for recruiting. You're an entrepreneur, you're organized, you've figured out how not to, how not to burn out. And I laugh because it's not funny. It's actually stupid how a lot of entrepreneurs just burn themselves out. And it's stupid how as human beings, we go, go, go till we fall over. And I laugh, but I shouldn't because I've felt a few times, even in my business where I don't allow myself to take vacations enough, uh, and whatnot. And I know that one thing that you do that I love is you try to take one day, one working day, a week off. Are you still doing that? Please say yes.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, generally, I would say Friday afternoons. I mean, I'm not working. It's very Rare that you'll see me on a Friday afternoon log in. Unless it's something super urgent. I will. Um, Friday mornings I'll tend to just do a quick hour, finish off, record a podcast. Record a podcast, finish up my week. If there's anything, uh, that's, you know, urgent, attend to. But yeah, no, I still kind of try my best to do like a four day work week. Um, but, you know, it's something, you know, Sean had actually posted recently about, um, you know, instead of calling it work life balance, you know, to talk about integration.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, and finding ways on how to integrate, um, you know, your personal life within your work week. Right. I mean, this traditional nine to five. I am so over this traditional nine to five. So even if I do take Fridays for myself, I'll be very honest with you. I work a couple of hours on Sunday morning and I love it. I love it. I will literally just put in one or two hours to. Okay, reset. Let's see what my week's gonna look like. Do, uh, I have any positions I need to post? Yeah. Uh, did any CVs come in over the weekend that I might want to screen to book for Monday to take a bit of an advance? I mean, I feel like I'm very fortunate and lucky that I love my job so much. Feel like a job. Right. I mean, it just feels like an extension of me. Um, especially now that I have my own recruitment firm. Uh, so, yeah, so I think it's really about finding, you know, yes. That balance, but integration, as Sean had brought it up recently, I thought that was a really interesting way of looking at it.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, um, it's fantastic to be able to do something that we love, but it's also, you can still burn out doing something you love. So it's important that you, like you said, you integrate things that like, you know, relax, like you don't work on Friday afternoon. You take time for yourself, you know, whatever it might be, you know, whether it's an activity or yoga class on

Speaker A: a Wednesday morning at 9, you know,

Speaker B: whatever it is, that's great. Yeah. And Harmin, um, I'd like this to be like, we kind of have to wrap it up soon, which we could go for hours, but it's very, very interesting. Thank you so much, by the way. And I think the thing I want to, the thing I want to end on is why recruiting, like, and when I say that, I know you love it, I know you like doing it, but why do you think you love it? Have you thought of that? Have you ever said to yourself, what is it about recruiting that I like so much?

Speaker A: Well, there's a couple of aspects. I mean, so I fell into recruitment out of nowhere.

Speaker B: Okay, so you didn't even know. It was like, what's this stuff?

Speaker A: I literally. I, uh, was a travel agent, and I loved being a travel agent. And once again, travel agent. It's funny because it's very similar to recruitment in a sense. I mean, there's a lot of research invol. There's a lot of analysis, a lot of research. There's matching the perfect vacation with the perfect couple, for example, or the perfect family. Finding, uh, you know, looking at the family's requirements and looking at the resorts they want to go to and making sure to make a match. So there was a lot of similarities there. And I literally walked into this multinational firm looking for another position. I was looking for something in administration or sales. I just. I wanted to do something different. And I'll never forget Lisa, who is still, uh, a great. A good acquaintance of ours. Um, you know, she looked at me and she said, harmine, I think you should be working here. And I'm going to send you for an interview right away. Are you free right now? Because there's a manager in Vilcel that would like to meet you right now.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: And literally I went from her office to the Vilcell. I was in Pierre farm, went to the Vilcel office and.

Speaker B: Same thing you did to that other person.

Speaker A: It was. It's unbelievable. So they hired me, you know, and. And, uh. And that's kind of how I fell into it. Um, but the initial question was why? Why do I.

Speaker B: Well, yeah, okay, so you fell into it. It's great. You love it. But what, what are the. Well, I think you said it a little bit. Is it because you get to matchmake people? Is it because you get to find. You get to help businesses move forward? Like, what is it about recruiting? Where's the high? Where is it?

Speaker A: Like, I think it's all of that. I think it's helping people land their dream jobs and the amount of candidates that I've helped find an amazing position. Just in my four months now, I think that I've had Talencia. I have helped 11 people in four months find jobs. And I've. I feel so grateful that this is my job. Like, this is like, you know, what I get to do every single day. And I still get messages, oh, my God, thank you so much for helping me find this job. And then vice versa with the Clients, um, you know, clients as well, are very like, you know, they're very grateful towards me to be able to find them good talent. Um, you know, I have a good judge of character. I think that's really important as a recruiter as well, to make sure that you're making that good match. So I think that that's kind of what it is.

Speaker B: That's what brings a passion. Right. And you just said something there. Sorry, I know we're supposed to end on this, but let's just go a little bit further. Let's take two minutes more. Um, you said I'm a good judge of character. Okay, that's. That's a. That's a loaded statement, right? You got to break. I can't. We can't end on that.

Speaker A: But, you know, we're not all perfect, right? Because I did have a bad experience not long ago. So, I mean, you can't be all perfect, right? Sometimes, sometimes you think you have a good judge of character. You meet the candidate, you're like, this is the one. And then the client meets the candidate, the hr, the manager, the. You know, they go through a three person interview. Everyone loves this candidate. And three weeks later, we realize, oh, crap, we all messed up here, and this is not a good candidate. And even after doing a reference and a background check, and unfortunately, we're dealing with human beings at the end day of the.

Speaker B: So what you're saying, judgy character is. It's your gut feeling too. It's like, yeah, feels right. And then. So you have all the very sort of traditional parameters that the gates, they have to go through. You know, education, experience, style, personality. But then sometimes it still falls over. Right? It's still. It's still like, oh, my God, like, we didn't see this. Right.

Speaker A: But yes.

Speaker B: Do you. Is there. And I don't want to say this, it's not. Not nice, but do you ever notice some people's like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, like, they totally change, right? It's like they go somewhere and there's almost like recently. Okay, yeah.

Speaker A: And the candidate really just like won us all over. Myself, the hiring manager, the cfo, the hr, one, like four people over in the interview process. And then three to four weeks later, we realized multiple absences, not showing up on time, not giving reasons why, uh, sick days all the time. And then just realizing, okay, wait a second. They were obviously going through something, um, you know, and we didn't catch it at the beginning. So.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had one candidate many years ago, who was stealing from the company afterwards. Like, oh, my God, that's.

Speaker A: I've heard. So I've heard stories like that. Luckily I haven't had that. But I do, I do want to end on one little note. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, One little positive note. But I mean, because you are also asking about why. You know what I mean, What I love about the recruitment aspect, more recently, I would say possibly in the last like two years, one factor that has come up a lot is De and I. So diversity, equity and inclusion. Yeah. Uh, um, it is something that, as we see right now, it's very unfortunate being dismantled in the U.S. you know, they're, they're completely closing down departments. They don't believe in it whatsoever. I am a big advocate for it. Especially here in Montreal. There's a lot of minority groups. And throughout my 13, 14 years in recruitment, I have dealt with multiple companies that have had no shame even in discriminating when asking me for, you know, when telling me the requirement requirements they were looking for to hire somebody.

Speaker B: Oh, really? Like, we don't want women or we don't.

Speaker A: Exactly. I have had that happen where they tell me, you know, we're looking for a receptionist, a little petite blonde would do. Well, you know, I've gotten those kind of comments or just recently when maybe one of the last little anecdotes I'll give you, um, when we're talking about memorable recruitment hires, um, I helped a company with a diverse hire that they, uh, all white company, you know, not a single diverse minority group within this organization. They weren't very big, maybe about 15 people company, but still here in Montreal. And I had presented three candidates, and the one that I knew was going to get it, and she was the most qualified was a minority hire, a diverse hire. And the client. After all the interview process, the candidate met myself, met the president, the president's, um, assistant and the controller. And everybody agreed. She's wonderful. The president called me and said, I know everyone says she's wonderful, but I'm really struggling with my own bias, with my own opinion of this, of this person and the minority group that this person comes from. I mean, I was mortified because I was almost like, uh, hello, I'm a minority group. Like these clients, they almost, almost don't realize that, okay, yes, I'm perfectly bilingual, I'm born and raised here, but I am Indian at the end of the day. Um, you know, and I, I remember having to like, sit her down and have the conversation and say, There are so many benefits. If you only knew the benefits of hiring a diverse hire. Innovate. They hired her.

Speaker B: Okay?

Speaker A: And you know what?

Speaker B: The doing great.

Speaker A: The next message I got from her was not only, um, you know, thank you for the hire, but it was, thank you for the perspective shift. Uh, and thank you for opening my eyes.

Speaker B: You know what I mean? I think it wonderful. Yeah, I think, you know, it's okay. Some people have natural biases that can happen. And, and it's good that this person went to you and admitted it because you were able to say, listen, because just the fact that that person said that she or he was asking you push me over the edge because I know this is a bad bias.

Speaker A: Right, Exactly.

Speaker B: That's good. That's great.

Speaker A: And the thankfulness at the end, uh, for the perspective shift, that was just like, for me, I was like, wow, this is what I do, what I'm doing right now. Because I've managed to, you know, change her mind about certain things and now she's open minded about stuff. So it was really great.

Speaker B: Well, one of my proudest hires was with a client who is religious, Jewish, who hired a religious Muslim person. And they get along great.

Speaker A: That's amazing.

Speaker B: I'm like, oh, man, I love hearing it.

Speaker A: I'm a big advocate for it.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And it's a wonderful thing. So, hey, look, but Harmine, thanks so much for taking the time and we'll do this again because I think we could talk for another three hours. You see, it wasn't as hard as you thought, was it? Uh, no, no.

Speaker A: It was my very first podcast. Thanks for having me on.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, and you did great. So thank you everyone for listening. Um, if you want to reach out to Harmine, she's in Montreal. She's got an agency called Talencia. You guys know where to reach me. So, uh, thank you very much and, uh, we'll all see you soon. Thank you very much. We'll talk to you soon. Remember, uh, to keep ask the right questions. Thanks. Arming.