Vibe Coding Your MVP Is a Time Bomb: AI Workflows for Founders Who Want to Ship Twice

Speaker A: Here's what nobody tells you about AI coding. The smartest model on the planet can still build you a house with no foundation. What if the tool you use every single day is quietly burning your budget and you don't even know it? What if vibe coding your MVP feels like progress, but it's actually setting a time bomb under your business? Everyone's racing to build faster with AI, but almost nobody is asking if what they're building can survive its own success. Speed without architecture doesn't scale, it just delays the collapse. You can vibe code a working demo in an afternoon, but can you debug it in six months when the real customers are depending on it? Most founders can't answer that question, and that's the gap it's about to separate who wins and who quietly burns out. So what foundation are you standing on right now that looks solid today, but was never actually built to hold what's coming? Welcome to AI for Founders. I'm Ryan Estes. In this episode you'll learn why speed without structure is a trap, how to actually deploy AI agents without losing control of your code base, and why picking one AI model forever might be the biggest mistake you make this year. This one's for founders who are done playing with prompts and ready to build something that actually lasts. Today's guest is Mike Vites, founder of Saturnia Design and Saturnia Labs, a company that builds custom AI power software and Agentix systems to turn founders ideas into market ready products in weeks, not years. And if your brain just lit up with three new business ideas, that's not an accident. That's what this show does. So go get the recap. At AIFORfounders co founders read the newsletter to steal the exact playbooks other founders are using to scale with AI. So don't be the last one in the group chat still asking what a data mode is. Subscribing @aiforfounders Co is basically hiring a research team for free. And free is a great price. If this episode episode gave you one idea worth stealing, do us a favor and leave a review for the podcast. Because apparently that's how the algorithm decides who deserves to be heard next. And let's talk about the thing every founder has in common. They stopped depending on the algorithm and started owning their audience. That's exactly what inbox alchemy does and why it's the number one distribution motion for founders right now. Algorithms change overnight, but your email list is yours forever. Nobody can shadow ban it, deprioritize or delete it. Out from under you. Inbox Alchemy builds you a weekly, professionally crafted newsletter that puts your name and your expertise directly in front of targeted audience of people who actually want to hear from you. We're talking guaranteed growth, real subscribers, not vanity metrics and partnership opportunities that turn your inbox into a revenue channel. While everyone else is begging the algorithm for attention, you'll be building the one asset that compounds for the rest of your career, your own audience. So stop renting attention from platforms that can vanish tomorrow and start owning it for a lifetime. Head to InboxAlchemy Co right now and let them build the newsletter that builds your brand. All right, ladies and gentlemen, Mike's back to give us an update. Mike, how are you doing, buddy?

Speaker B: Oh, uh, hey, hey, Ryan. It's good to be here. All is good on this side. Excited to be here again?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think last time you were on the show maybe four or five months ago, and so much changes so fast. It'll be fun to, to get caught up. So give us kind of an update where you're at. Make sure you give us all your URLs and what you're working on.

Speaker B: Yeah. So basically, um, the latest, biggest, um, achievement that we have passed is that we became an official cloud partner. We are working on the same with AWS and GCP as well. Uh, we are still live@saturniadesign.com uh, and we are doing a lot of rebranding right now. So soon we will release Saturnia Labs as well, apart from Saturnia design. So the whole suite that we are working on, including not just our services, but our own in house products, will be released soon. So keep an eye on that because a lot of exciting news are coming up, uh, in the, let's say in the next one and a half, two months. And apart from that, um, uh, my team and I been building, uh, very hardly on our own agentic system, so to say. So we are, uh, right now working on a kind of runtime environment which is this kind of, uh, operation system, working with AI agents. So a lot of tasks have been and already and constantly delegated to AI agents in house, including testings and development tasks and product planning. So we are automating a lot and uh, we are building a very robust system which is scalable not just for ourselves, but for our clients as well.

Speaker A: Amazing. Now and you're kind of on the front line building custom solutions for AI and M. You know, it's starting to get, I don't want to say standardized now. But like this kind of idea of like um, fde some people are calling it what a forward deployed deployment engineer or basically going in and making custom solutions. So for, for business owners that are like kind of figuring out like how to deploy AI and, and different kind of automation systems in, in their businesses, are there certain places you like to start or are customers asking for a certain kind of similar thing that you can start to standardize some of the applications that might go into a business?

Speaker B: Yeah, so the beauty of this is that it's um, creating an MVP is much easier than before. And um, this is a fair point uh, because rolling out an actual market ready product and creating an mvp, there is a long distance between and if you want to test it out on the market, which was always our belief that you have to rush to the market as soon as possible, get users, test it out, start iterating on it, then uh, get alive as soon as possible is much easier right now. So the customers are asking for that. If there's an idea, uh, let's try rolling out, rolling it out with a few beta testers from their customer base and start automating the daily tasks that they've been doing. To give you a few examples, for example, content making is I think uh, uh, very down to earth example. Like if you can create a content creation machine based on your own knowledge base and you know, the most ambitious and most relevant part is there to create it based on your own knowledge base. So for example you have a financial plan, business plan, daily operations and you want authentic content behind it. Um, then you can create a machine that creates of course needs to be reviewed, but creates a lot of content that you can post on your social media. And instead of creating a lot of noisy content which doesn't make sense and takes away a lot of your creative work, it can give you a lot of ideas. Or another one is the deployment which is a more technical um, experience that every deployment pipeline can be automated. So basically from the code review until um, the bug fixing and the whole deployment pushing to git, creating the documentation and iterating on it can be also automated. This is a very typical case including to put it on a server. Of course there is a point which I would underline, and this is coming from a lot of clients of ours, that you shouldn't pass your secret keys or uh, environmental variables to these big agents. So you have to keep your vault locally. But apart from that, until you are working for example with public SSH keys or something like that, it's absolutely Secure from uh, cyber security, um, um, perspective as well. Um, and can automate adult in your daily job. Not just on the marketing but on the technical side as well.

Speaker A: Well, um, a couple of things. You know, I want to talk about the content and building content engine I've been experimenting with. Same thing but I want to make sure I understand correctly. So Saturnia, you're actually building custom applications and um, software for clients for the most part as opposed to using automation and things to enhance people's existing businesses. You're building novel products.

Speaker B: Yes, yes. Amazing.

Speaker A: And so obviously you're a cloud partner. Well, walk us through like what it means to be kind of become a certified CLAUDE partner. Do you have to take a test?

Speaker B: Um, you have to pitch to them basically. So it's kind of the same process that you would pitch to any kind of um, grant, um, or a specific role. And if they accept you then you will have access to all the um, top notch um, learning uh, materials and you will uh, also um, be able to access a lot of not just the learning materials but also exams as well. So for example I'm planning to do a Claude, um, certified Architect, um, role as well. And um, and basically you have a direct touch apart from what everyone see. You can see what's happening under the belt and um, you can be one of the ones who will be notified at first about the new developments and you can understand it more deeply how to use it. Because um, I think there are two different perspectives on the market. Let's say, I'm not saying 99, but most of the users, let's say the power users are interfacing with the big LLMs through these desktop and uh, web UI interfaces like ChatGPT and Claude. But uh, we engineers are using the backend solution which is running in the terminal. Of course you can build your own user interface, but this is a different story because then you have your own sandbox or your own playground. So instead of um, using um, client ready software, uh, from the LM's perspective you are using the tools of it. And that's a very different approach. It's like buying a house or buying the tools to build a house. Yeah.

Speaker A: Do they give you access to Mythos?

Speaker B: Yes. Yes.

Speaker A: Really?

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. They don't call it Methos, they call it Table. But yes, you have, you have like it is the same model. Uh, but yeah, of course. And um, it's interesting like we are using, I wouldn't say on a daily basis but close to a daily basis because there are also A lot of that's another part of thing that most of the M people are reading a lot of news, okay, Fable or Methos is all around the corner and all over the place. And you can see that it can do things that it couldn't do before. But by the end of the day it's too robust for most of the tasks and just burning a lot of tokens and spending a lot of money on things that shouldn't be necessary spend money for. So that's why this agentic system which I mentioned in the beginning comes in the picture that you have to build your own architecture where you can use the right model for the right tasks. So for example, we are using Fable, but we are not saying that, okay, Fable is the most intelligent model for Fable with everything because that just doesn't make sense. And also there's another angle then for example, maybe you heard, I think you heard that um, Kimi just came out with a new model that is creating better benchmarks than MITOs. February is doing it's fresh new life a few days ago. And if you stick to one, uh, LLM or one model you can be trapped. It's kind of a vendor lock. So you have to build a ah, flexible and modular enough architecture. If a new model comes into the picture, you can easily plug and play and try out models as well. And you can use parallel models for different tasks, just for example to save uh, tokens as I mentioned and also to be uh, able to always um, top notch off your game because customers will want that and they will ask, okay, are you using Fable or are you using Kimi or using the new GPT model or what are you using?

Speaker A: I spent a lifetime in martial arts, heavy lifting in wrestling, decades of takedowns, oma platas, hard mats, doing things to my knees and shoulders that my knees and shoulders never agreed to. Now I'm much more into yoga and running, which sounds gentle until you try and fold this body into pigeon. My joints need lubrication. That's just the truth. The biggest difference maker for me has been momentous Omega 3s. Less creaking in the morning, deeper stretches, longer runs without paying for it the next day. And quality matters enormously here because Omega 3s are exactly where cheap brands cut corners. Momentous is third party tested for purity, NSF certified and held to the same standards as everything else they make. This is the brand trusted by people like rich roll and Dr. Stacy Sims. Joint Health isn't a one month project. It's a daily practice. So put it on subscription. The link in the show notes stacks my code on the standard 25% for 35% off your first subscription order, then 10% off every order after that or take 14% off a one time purchase. The link is in the show notes. Thanks so much. Momentous. All right, big news, everyone. Taylor picked me to be a fashion influence, believe it or not. And I was strutting around the house telling my family I'd finally been discovered that my modeling era had arrived. Then my daughter, without even looking up from her phone, said, dad, they probably just want a dramatic before and after pick. And that's fair. The before is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. But have you seen the after? The after is fantastic. And here's why. Taylor is an AI powered menswear, styling and rental service. And no, the robots are not working alone. Taylor pairs its AI with professional human stylists. The AI crunches your preferences, your style, your size, your schedule, even the weather. The human stylists add the taste and judgment. Together, they curate a box of premium menswear from over 150 brands and ship it straight to you. You wear it, you feel great, you return whatever you want with a prepaid label. And Taylor handles all the cleaning and prepping for your next shipment. And it's also more sustainable way to do fashion since clothes get worn instead of wasted. So whether you're influencer material or just the before photo with potential, go to Taylor Style and use code RYAN, 30 for 30 bucks off your first shipment on any plan Taylor. Dress better, live better, tailor style. Yeah, Cool. And I would love to know about your special sauce, because I was thinking about this the other day, like if, if you're using Claude, I'm using Claude. We have the same skill set as far as like the ability and speed to code. But of course, the way I approach it is going to be different from you approach it. Or maybe one of your customers is like, well, Mike, I could sit down with Claude for a couple or Claude for a couple of weeks and work this out. So, like you personally, what's the special sauce that you're bringing to the project that then is enacted by these kind of, um, AI, augmented programming, uh, models?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good question though. Um, so if you go to Claude and say that, okay, I want to build something, it will build you something, and to use it efficient, you have to know what is the end goal that you would like to build with. So the difference between is that you cannot save the costs, uh, and the knowledge of a real Architect, you can um, save the costs and the time of the low level code developers. That's the difference. So basically if I just go and say that okay, for example, um, create me a content creation machine, it will create something for you. Maybe it will be working. But will it work in the way you want to do? Are you able to find on the bugs? Are you able to create a real working product? Are you able to give and make a scalable product from it? That's the question. And most of the people cannot because. And there's another thing. If you don't plan it out right? And that's where the, the real engineering knowledge comes into the picture. If you don't know how to build up a modular system, then you will see very quickly that as you start adding new and new and new features to the table then it will fall apart. And there are a lot of articles uh, around the net that okay, um, who will collect the garbage after all the wipe coded stuff. And this is a real issue because if you just wipe code and you don't code, just vibe. So to say, heavy on the vibes. Yes, yes, the vibes will be good because agents are supposed to and determine to do the thing that you want to do. But to make a proactive agent that can debate with you and think with you and plan with you, you have to put the knowledge and effort into, to build up the system. So it's like the, create the um, it's like uh, you can build a house without the foundation, but it won't be solid.

Speaker A: Yeah, 100. Cool. And what kind of projects are you really looking forward to? What would be an ideal project for you? Um, something that would be fun.

Speaker B: Um, basically M. We are looking right now for people who are saying, and we are cooperating with a lot of people right now who comes to us. They'll say, yeah, hey Mike, we have um, X number of clients or we are already working with. We know our market, we are specialized in something. For example, I just had a um, talk yesterday with a personal coach, um, who works in, in his gym and have, and they are running apart from their personal coaching, they are running um, also a healthcare company which they are selling for enterprises and they want to create an automated system that can be um, that can take, that can create knowledge for the enterprise's employees after they have done their methods. So basically we discussed that, okay, they have this method. Why don't we code it for them then they can sell it to their existing clients. And instead of saying that okay, we will Charge you a bill for that. Why don't we test it out together? Because we have the capability to, as I said, to roll out an MVP super fast. Then if it makes sense for your clients, then we build up a product, uh, together around it, and we can do, um, profit share. So this is the model where this world is going, at least in our way, and that we are finding a lot of collaborations. Of course, there are a lot of existing clients who are more solid and saying that, okay, we want to optimize something or we want to add the module, blah, blah. But apart from that, this is a very typical case and it's very good. Or also, I had another talk last week. I was at a dinner with a friend, and he said that, hey, Mike, I have an, um, issue that maybe can be solved by AI agents. And they want to mass mail. He's a leader at a company, a sales director at company. He want to mass mail, uh, his target audience with the product they are working on at his enterprise company. And, uh, they have some offers from the market. But it's much better for them to make a personalized. And I think the personalized word is the most important in this topic, uh, to have a personalized environment for their own needs. And if they are satisfied, we can roll them out, then they can help us to open a new market together.

Speaker A: Cool. I love that. So he's doing an actual physical mailer, like mailing.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: Cool.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And we are building everything behind. So basically that's how we can differentiate. So there's one party who can have the reach to the market and face with the clients, and we are the backbone behind them.

Speaker A: Um, yeah. Amazing. I like that too. That's a good strategy, like, you know, using relationships. Because now it's like people have, are realizing they can enact their ideas. And I'm. People have great ideas. They want to come to you, they want to help execute them. Or in some cases, it's like, hey, Mike, actually come take a look at what I'm doing. What are some things I can build internally to, to help our team be more efficient? Um, but finding those relationships is tough. So when you have partnerships, then it makes it much easier because they're the people that boots on the ground that know the person. It's like, hey, my buddy's got a great idea. Actually, you need to talk to Mike because Michael gave you the ABC to get that actually deployed and put to market. So when you're, you're building tools, uh, for folks kind of at A better or a greater speed than ever. You know what, how do you encourage people to go to market? You know, do you think the partnerships are the best way? Do you like or maybe a better question is where are people finding success? Are they finding success with design partners? Are they already having existing relationships and building products for their current customers? How are they uh, people building tool, going out and finding their first 1, 2, 3, 10 customers?

Speaker B: I think um, it's the healthiest way if they already have an existing client base. Because the existing clients base, uh, trust them so they can test it out freely that they can understand what are the bottlenecks and what are the um, the problems with the early stage products so they can solve it very quickly. And uh, apart from that um, um, on the other side, which is our side, they need a holistic partner, holistic thinking partner. Which means that we are not just capable of doing the technology, we are thinking together with the other party because we are using the business angle for that. So we don't want, we want to understand their business goals, not just their tech goals. That's why we are building also our in house system because the technical parts, and that's what I was pitching for a lot of years now that the technical part is just a necessity um, to achieve your business goal, but it's not the end goal.

Speaker A: What about you Mike? What you, what's on your back burner? I'm sure you've got 12 ideas for businesses or tools that you'd like to bring to market. Anything you feel like sharing.

Speaker B: Yeah, basically. I personally believe that um, what we right now doing is chat support. Uh, I wouldn't say just chat support. It's a customer support, customer facing application which is very hands on because a lot of uh, company is trying to use chatbots but not in the right way because they are not using their own knowledge base. And that's the difference. So a guardrails knowledge base driven solution that is semi automated is the right way. We already piloted between one client and it's very, very successful and uh, everyone loves it and it's already. I just looked at the benchmarks before this conversation. Uh, we rolled it out I don't know three weeks ago and it already solved 700 questions and the uh, 83% was automatedly answered and the 70% was questioned. That cannot be answered at first. So needed to ask from the admin that what is the right answer for that. But apart from that, as soon they replied with an answer it extended the knowledge base of it. So basically they uh, didn't need to respond twice for the same kind of question and it can read the patterns. So I think this is something that will be brilliant. And apart from that I'm really looking uh, into this agent E Commerce thing. There are a lot of agent E Commerce um, developments on the market and we are very close uh, to the fire with that. We will roll out some agent E Commerce uh solutions which I are under disclosure right now. But what I can say for sure that it will come in in Mid or Mid Q4 this year and it's about how can you automate uh the checkout flow in E commerce systems because this is the Future uh, that is MasterCard and Visa is uh, working on and a lot of fintech players are working on. So it's already, they are already talking about that and we are in the position to be, to see that what are the customer needs and started already working on um, client facing applications and we will roll out some products regarding that as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, that needs to be fixed. Somebody's got to do it. And two factor authentication, can we get that out of here? I am so sick of like yes. Punching in codes to log in. You know it's like come on guys, use crypto. Use what a blockchain? Use AI. Uh, fix that, fix that.

Speaker B: Um, in the payment flow definitely yes. Yeah, yeah, in the payment flow definitely yes. Um, apart from the payment flow I think it's a bigger change but I think it will be if the payment flow which is a very vulnerable point of the whole like it's about money. Right. So it's, it's, it's always very sensitive. Uh if that will be solved I think that will create uh, a lot of headspace and, and uh, it will speed up things on the authentication side because you are absolutely right that it's a super brutal headache today. And the PES keys, uh, and uh, the face ID and all the things that are ah, the big ones trying to use are not bad but still not the best use case to solve it. Yeah, there should be more silent solutions.

Speaker A: Totally. Uh and I like how you work man. Um, it's a bit of agency work so you have clients, uh, hands on clients work and then developing commercial products to sell. Oftentimes you know people that are building products, they're always looking over at the service agency world like wow, that seems nice. And then service agent people are looking over the product world, they're like oh that looks nice. Do you have one that you prefer or do you like to do both?

Speaker B: Uh, I really like to do both. Like I think this is, this is the healthy way to do because as just as you mentioned, if you are just on one side of the looking mirror then uh, you will be start using a reality after a point. Because from the agent side you always think that the service that you are providing is always based on the benchmark of your clients feedback which can be good or bad but it's still in a sandbox environment. Um, same with the products that you are lucky with one product, that doesn't mean that you are lucky with the second product as well. So I think the truth is between the two and I think the keyword for that is analytics and measurements. Because um, in today's world everything can be measured and ah, should be measured. And that's why it fits our model very well. Because since we are not just developing the software but we are measuring the user experience and we were always on the data side of things. That's how our mindset is built. That's how companies build. Our employees are working, our leadership behind the team is thinking. So basically uh, to speed up things with AI was just literally the missing puzzle to make a big scale up for us. It's like fresh air.

Speaker A: Yeah. Made it fun.

Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. Like I get thrilled. A few months ago, um, I was um, debating with my um, leadership and we were discussing that. Yeah we got tired of some routines that stoned um in um for a couple of years and it was solid. But the world has changed and we needed to realize that we need to change as well. And since I was a computer scientist and also I led a lot of projects in the last 10 years but still I haven't been coding for a while. Like I wasn't the one who was writing the code but my people, uh, I needed to mindset change as well and go back to the architect, the real architecture part of stuff. Not just reviewing it but planning it. And um, it's fun. It's really fun. And right now that's why we could speed up a lot of things because I went back to the planning table and sometimes you have to do that as an entrepreneur and uh, I think it's healthy.

Speaker A: Love it. Um, are there any new skills or automations that you're particularly reliant on or maybe something that you're using, you're automating right now that if you lost it tomorrow you'd miss it?

Speaker B: Um, yeah, I think which, which is very good. This is. But it's an inside thing in the company is the automated Pipeline that if there's a new commit for the code then uh, there's a quality checker that can review it and give it back to the agent that okay guys, this is not good. After the quality check is done, then there will be a human checkup. After the human check is done then the commit will be done automatically automatedly and deployed to the server and the uh, DNS will be configured as well. So basically um, it would take a lot of time from an engineer's time or from a DevOps time and now it's done automatedly. So it would be a game changer because with that we can save a lot of money. Apart from that, the other capability I would miss is the research capability. So using parallel sub agents to research uh, about a practical topic is very important. We had a project recently where we helped the client about uh, creating a product landscape for the business plan. And we've been using more than 40 agents parallel to do the research. And with that measurement capabilities and with capabilities, um, I both mean the amount of data they can proceed, uh, process and also the speed how they can process it, uh, would take tons of time and money with people and instead of that we could just do it in a few days. So yeah, these two things I would really miss from my pipeline.

Speaker A: Totally. Those are good. And so you're doing automated QC on codebase commits after every single commit?

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: Wow, that's incredible.

Speaker B: Yes, I think um, guardrails are very important because if, if there are no guardrails then the whole system can fall apart because uh, agents. And this is a, I wouldn't say that's a big problem. That's just uh, it is the nature of it. And you have to understand if you're using um, LLMs that uh, it sometimes it's not critical enough in itself. There was a lot of, and still there are a lot of um, debates around this topic that a lot of agents are hallucinating and this is a big problem. And, and if, let's say we are two agents, you and I, and you are the ones who are hallucinating and I am who is saying, hey Ryan, you were hallucinating, then you will think, okay, maybe I'm hallucinating, then startly thinking about your idea. That's how you would shoot things. So you need to imagine it like you uh, you are working with people and you have to think in the same behaviors and with the same problems because as they are getting uh, more clever and clever they are kind of doing the same kind of mistakes that People can do, and that's normal because this is the behavior of, of their work. How, how they are working with a lot of complex information. That's normal. But as that's why, and that also reflects back to the question that you have proposed earlier, then what's the difference between you and me? If you just start, uh, using Claude, these are the ideas that you have to put in the pipeline to make sure that you have an architecture that is solid enough. Solid enough to, to be used, uh, in live environments.

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, I think that's happening. What I've noticed too, over the last four or five months is like, the business model is disincentivized to actually finish projects. Like, it wants to keep you, to keep spending tokens. So you start to near the end line where you're like, okay, this thing is about to ship, and then suddenly the memory disappears and suddenly it forgets what the PRD is and you, you have to keep it on task because it's, it's, you know, it's working off time and materials. I'm trying to finish it, get the outcome, you know, so that I feel like, needs to be worked out because, you know, Claude has gotten way more chatty over the last couple of months. Like, he really wants to explain everything to you three different ways and ask you a bunch of questions. It's like, hey, buddy, we already went through this on the prd, remember? Yeah, yeah, we've been here. We answered these questions several times. Like, I need you to just go ahead and execute now.

Speaker B: Yes, that's true. That's why, again, um, that's underlying also the point that if you are using AI just as it is, then you will face these problems. And this is, this is a super real problem that you just mentioned. This is a super real problem. And I think a lot of people are facing that, and there are solutions for that. Because if you build up your own environment, these can be neglected. Like, in my environment, these are already neglected.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Amazing.

Speaker A: Cool. Um, Mike, I appreciate you coming back on the show and catching us up. Um, I want to encourage, uh, the founders out there. You know, there's a lot that are listening and there's a, you know, I, I ask every single person, you know, what are you working on, aside from what you're working on? And everybody's got three or four ideas. You know, Mike is the guy that I go to when I want to execute on my ideas. So, you know, founders are out there. You've got a side thing you don't want to babysit. Claude and do it wrong like build it correctly from the get go. And Saturnia Design is the place to go. So check out saturnia design.com, reach out, uh, talk to Mike and get together a scope on your next project. Mike, I appreciate it, buddy. Again, um, what's the best place for people to connect with you online?

Speaker B: Basically, feel free to hand out my personal email or my WhatsApp as well. They can reach out to me on both. I'm happy, happy to chat with everyone. I'm absolutely open, um, to have discussions and I'm always happy to meet new people. So I think there's no bad conversation because everyone will learn something. At least if they cannot achieve some business together, they will know new people, which is always valuable in life. So these two channels are the most convenient for me. And also thank you for having me. Uh, and it's great to be here. Really looking forward to connect with more people, uh, from your network as well. Would be happy to start building with them. Something 100.

Speaker A: And I want to say congratulations, World Cup Champions.

Speaker B: Yep, yep, yep. This is. This was great. This was great. Oh, uh, we were.

Speaker A: Look, are you still hungover? What's the deal? How was that party? How was that party?

Speaker B: The party. Party was brutal. Like, oh man, now I'm sober. But it was brutal. Like, yeah, Spain was on fire. Literally, like even before. But after this, it was brutal. Like, yeah, big celebrations. It was great to be there.

Speaker A: Unbelievable. Uh, uh, congratulations. Thanks for coming back, Mike. Appreciate it.

Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you.

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