How to Build a Successful Freelance SEO Business While Working Full Time

Speaker A: Welcome to the Agency Growth series, the, uh, podcast dedicated to setting up, running and scaling your SEO agency. Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Agency Growth Series. And today we have a very special guest, Peter Rota. The topic of today's conversation will be the unconventional SEO. So how Peter Rota built a freelance career in SEO through deep work, obsession and thinking differently. So today's a bit of a special topic. I'm very excited to talk about it and welcome to the show. Peter, thank you for coming on.

Speaker B: Thank you. Yeah, happy to be here and always enjoy talking about SEO.

Speaker A: Awesome. Yeah, I'm really excited about today's conversation and my first question is, when you look back at the early years of your SEO career, because you've been in this for quite a long time now, what was the, the thing you were most obsessed about? The other people around you see seem to be a bit unbothered by?

Speaker B: I, uh, don't know if there's one specific thing, but I've always been kind of obsessed with learning new things, especially in SEO and just kind of. I think it's important that you basically stay up, I guess, above the edge or um, on top of like your game and SEO, because, like, it changes so fast and if you don't really once I used to love change, but you need to be able to adapt pretty fast and be able to test things and move pretty quick, quickly. So I think with std, I always, I'm just interested in learning as much as possible and challenging myself and, um, just. Yeah, I mean, I like to be challenged and continue to learn as much as I can and then always try to test new things. So I guess a combination of those three.

Speaker A: Did you always find yourself in technical SEO as your specialty or did you try other types of SEO first before landing into this?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, initially I started working on basically a, uh, blogger website and I was looking for ways to promote it and it was a lot of on page, off page. I didn't really get into technical, I would say. I mean, I've always done it, but I wouldn't say I focused heavily on it till probably, um, the last four and a half years. But I like it a bit more because it makes, forces you to think about a lot of different things. And I feel like it's a lot more fresh versus a lot of on page or off page where it comes more monotonous. And I just think it's even more important now with like, LLMs. And then I've also learned a lot with it for like JavaScript SEO. So I've enjoyed it more because it's a bit more challenging and keeps things fresh.

Speaker A: You say that with the rise of LLMs technical SEO has become more important recently? Yes, yeah, definitely. M. In what aspects?

Speaker B: I think just people always need to be checking their craw logs a bit more. I think that was brought up before but it wasn't really in focus and there's a lot more emphasis now on page speed specifically time to first fight. Um, I think with Google obviously you could get away with it more because they have an index versus if your LLMs are fetching you in real time and if you're not loading fast enough, you kind of getting excluded from the sources. So um, definitely things there too and then also like AI mode and then um, aio. So just really having the best technical experience possible. And um, now too with like MCPS and forgot the name of it. But basically there's these tools where the LLMs actually navigate your site and complete requests to this other important there too. So I mean I think just it's kind of brought almost a resurgence in tech SEO where it's like um, a lot of people think it's like not important and I've even posted stories and things on LinkedIn about where it's like I worked on a site with like 10 pages in tech SEO was important. So nice to get appreciated again because people are like oh it's not fun or sexy but I'm like it's definitely required. Like I've could give you like a few scenarios in my job where like it's been super important. So yeah, it's definitely, I always found it important.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I'm guessing with the rise of LLM, um, made websites as well where by, you know, I've told you this, we just did a migration over using cloud and Astro and I always kept that in mind of like okay, the, the technical SEO side of things it needs to be there but if you don't prompt it properly or understand what needs to be there, it will literally just create junk. Do you see a lot of that now working with those types of website?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean I'm definitely seeing a lot of client sideways lovable things that are just like oh it looks great but it's blind. I mean it's like blind LLM. Um, so yeah, I mean I think these tools, it's like they're very helpful but if you don't have a baseline knowledge you're going to end up wasting ah, all this time and effort. So you need to at Least have some knowledge before using them.

Speaker A: Um, onto my next question. When you're in the middle of a technical overhaul for a freelance client, and one of them I saw was a pretty big one, was one that drove 209k to 565k visits for a particular men's health site, what does that work look like on a daily basis as an SEO freelancer?

Speaker B: Yeah, sure. So for that specific client they kind of came to me basically and were like our traffic has kind of like been going down for a while and they wanted me to pretty much evaluate it. So I ran a pretty thorough SEO audit, kind of looking at their on um, page, off page technical SEO and a lot of it was just better internal linking. Meta titles weren't super optimized. Um, they had content that was only loaded via JavaScript that was pretty important. So I basically told them to render it in the um, HTML source versus just the rendered HTML. And I basically provided mostly a framework and met with them and they were the ones that actually implemented it. But I did follow up with them a few months later and to kind of get an idea and they said they definitely saw results and we're getting more people to the website. But as far as like the day to day, I mean at least in my job I've done some pretty thorough tech audits where essentially I will do an audit of the site. Kind of a mix of screaming fraud on um, Google Search Console and some other tools and extensions. And then I work in enterprise SEO. So it's a lot of just creating Jira tickets and then um, unfortunately waiting months and sometimes years for those to get implemented. And yeah, I mean in addition to that just looking for new things that help drive the needle. So I've done a lot with like internal linking or internal linkings and then we've done a lot with like product and service pages where we'll basically improve the title tags, H1s and then kind of some content refreshes and then some SEO testing as well. So kind of just tried to be creative and keep coming up with things. After the initial SEO audit you've mentioned there actually.

Speaker A: So you're running a full time in house role on top of being a freelancer simultaneously. How do you actually protect the kind of focused deep work that produces results like the ones we just cited, or 442% traffic increase when your attention is divided among these two roles, which obviously full time role on top of being a freelancer, like how do you find the time to do that kind of deep work?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean to be honest, I um, I wouldn't say it's too hard. I mean for like my day to day job, I'm pretty focused when I'm doing that. So I've often doing like Pomodoros or Focus Boosters and focusing on that. And then I'm working on like the freelance usually either before work, after work or on the weekends. And um, yeah, I mean I definitely work a lot of hours for sure. But I would say it's worth it because I feel like I'm able to get the benefits and salary of like a full time job. But then I'm also being challenged on the side too and kind of um, can make additional money. I think initially I did it because I got laid off from a job in like 2015 and I was like I am never going to like have someone else decide my income. So I really just um, stayed with it and just enjoyed and I feel like I've always been able to bring kind of new experiences or knowledge to my full time job. So definitely something I recommend. But I also don't have a kid and a girlfriend and a family right now so I have a bit more time. But I could see it definitely being more challenging if you have like a family and girlfriend and everything going on. So yeah, I mean and I probably work over like 70 hours a week too. So you definitely need to be committed to it.

Speaker A: Right? Right. So long story short, just put in the hours, right?

Speaker B: Yes. And then I mean I also have like a ah, few freelancers VA's and I've been using AI um more so it's trying to just also automate and outsource things so you can focus on like what's most important.

Speaker A: We're going to get back to the AI part obviously part of any conversation now these days. But yeah. So uh, based on what I've researched from you, it seems like you lean more into depth over volume and most freelancers scale by taking on more clients. What has leaning into depth over volume cost you? Perhaps personally, professionally as well and what has it protected? How has it helped you in your freelance journey?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean I would say I guess like how it's helped is um, clients definitely feel like they're get more of a relationship and I'm not trying to just may have quick block or BS clients. I've spoken like how I've basically talked some clients out of SEO. Not because I didn't want the money, but I just felt like I'm not going to sell you something you don't need. So there's that. But it's also definitely cost me too because I had so many leads. There's so many things going on at um, one point where I lost potential like E Commerce client which was probably going to be at least $3,000 a month and just like a retainer. So it's definitely been good and bad. But I think my situation that's like I also have the full time job so I can build more relationship versus someone that if they're freelancing or doing agency, that's their sole income. And it's like if they don't sign a client thing, they won't be able to eat or not maybe not eat, but they won't be able to have the uh, money and be able to pay certain bills and whatnot.

Speaker A: Do you focus on developing long term partnerships with the clients you work with as opposed to shorter types of SEO projects?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean it's honestly a bit of both. I obviously prefer longer engagements because the cash flow is a bit more predictable. But I also do a good amount of one offs where it's like we want an audit and I'll basically do it and implement it and then they kind of take it from there because sometimes they just don't have the budget or they just um, sometimes they have an in house team. So yeah, it really just depends on the client and what they want and their needs.

Speaker A: And you've, you've mentioned this in your previous answer, but you've been public about turning down SEO projects with some clients or even I think I saw it as a 3, 5K uh, SEO audit for a client with unrealistic expectations. My question to you is what specifically makes an expectation unrealistic versus just ambitious?

Speaker B: Yeah, so I mean for that specific example I wouldn't necessarily say they were unrealistic. So I can give you the background. Is this gentleman, he actually does SEO himself and his background is primarily on page. So he just um, kind of was looking for a more of a second pair of eyes to kind of get a better overview of his technical SEO. And I mean I probably looked at it a few hours and I didn't see anything that like popped out to me that like this site needs technical SEO. And a lot of times some clients have been maybe almost not scared or maybe kind of prompted into needing a technical SEO audit when they didn't really need it. So I think it was for me being realistic on what he actually needed versus what he may have thought he needed. So um, I'm actually probably going to start the work on that specific client this week. But I think it was just speaking to them what is actually important, what they need versus like getting a core web vital of like 100 or something. So I think there's a point where um, it almost comes to doing busy work versus something where it's like this is actually going to impact and make the site better SEO, slash tech wise.

Speaker A: And speaking of your working style. So no BS approach. You turn down some projects, you try to keep it as real as it is. And one part of that I saw was that you sometimes push back on raw traffic as a success metric. Yet some of your most prominent case studies lead with dramatic traffic numbers. How do you reconcile those two things when you're talking to a prospective client?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean a lot of those case studies I would say traffic was still a massive thing versus I feel like it's still important now. But um, you need to understand the other KPIs too. Um, so I mean I would think it's a mix of just understanding what drives the KPIs for clients. I mean I think with a lot of LinkedIn's case studies it's like they lead with traffic but they don't share any other KPIs. Or it's like I'll uh, leave with traffic, but I try to share the other KPIs that are important, like revenue too. So I think everything is about the context and um, the only thing that really matters is the bottom line. So it's like here we did this traffic increase but it's like what actually happened to like the revenue too.

Speaker A: So you get most of your leads from your LinkedIn presence, which you have a lot of followers, like 80 or 90k followers.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think I'm at like 81k plus. But uh, yeah, it's, I mean a mix of LinkedIn. Um, I've done some through upwork and then also like I've done a good amount of white labeling. So I've worked with Some um, other SEOs kind of doing SEO audits for those clients. So that's been like a good source of revenue as well. So um, definitely kind of a mix at this point. But I would say um, LinkedIn and Upwork have probably been the most reliable.

Speaker A: It's clear to me from you know, what you're saying and the 70 hours a week, which is phenomenal, you specialize, your angle is obsessive, deep work type of approach and what you describe as your edge. At what point this is more of a Personal question. At what point in your career did it stop being purely an asset and start costing you something more personally?

Speaker B: Oh, good question. I mean, I'd probably say a little bit before COVID because I kind of got more interested in heavily freelancing and then I was trying to date too. So I uh, was like, I want to date, but then I want to make money. So I had a girlfriend like we broke up like a few months ago. But I was balancing kind of doing the freelance and having a relationship too. So I think for me it's been more focusing on outsourcing and kind of building systems versus just I'm going to keep taking on all this work and I don't care if something else suffers. So at least this year I, I mean I, like I mentioned, um, I broke up with my girlfriend right now two months ago. So this point is more just focusing on I think work and doing a lot of self improvement stuff and just overall getting more comfortable outsourcing work. Because I've realized that I am probably my biggest bottleneck because I can have all the support but if I don't outsource it, I can't really grow. So it's definitely been hard for me because I just want to take on all the work. But I realized that the more work I take on, it actually prevents me. And then sometimes if I take on work that doesn't pay me a ton, I'm almost costing myself because it's like, here's a bigger job. Like I mentioned that retainer that I lost. Like I lost then because of like a more low cost job. So yeah, I mean the last year it's been a lot of just self reflecting and realizing like what's actually important. And I mean I don't, I'm um, not someone that's like obsessed with balance. I feel like in life and SEO it's a lot of spurts versus like I need perfect balance. So I think it's a lot of been me like recalculating and rethinking a lot of my priorities.

Speaker A: Do you think that the self reflection, this what you're going through, the, you know, the, the struggles that come with SEO, freelancing because you're on your own is an inevitable part to this job. Do you, do you feel like a lot of other freelancers go through the same journey that you're going through?

Speaker B: Yes. I mean I think there's like different stages of being a freelancer where it's like you can't, you're learning, you can't get any clients and then you kind of almost reach a form where it's like you're getting work and then you're forced to almost outsource because if you keep taking on the work and don't allocate uh, it or outsource it to someone else, you can't really grow. So I think it's, I think it's a part of freelance or even agency where it's like you maybe just start on your own. Like I'm m an agency and doing every work and then you have to hire other people. So I think it's an inevitable step that all SEO slash any freelancers run into at some point.

Speaker A: And I mean you're working full time now, but do you ever consider moving full time to freelancing or maybe even opening your own agency and hiring people to help you and delegate this work to.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean I've definitely thought about it a lot. I mean personally I'm not the greatest at sales so it's been hard for me to close I guess enough leads or clients that I would be able to basically be making more than I am in my full time job. So um, I'm actually in SEO sales course right now, which I think is helping. But yeah, I mean sales is always, I mean it's probably a lot of SEOs kind of struggle with sales. So I mean it's definitely been something that's like most challenging for me to just get a consistent stream of clients per se. Mhm.

Speaker A: And you have to do, I'm guessing over the last few years a lot of like self teaching in terms of sales or even join classes or is that like the number one skill that you're trying to now cultivate is sales?

Speaker B: I mean it's something I knew, I realized was my issue before, but I think it's something I'm more heavily focused on now because I um, mean I would do all these presentations and everything and I was like, I feel like this is good and I feel like a lot, a lot of thing too and is partially related to sales is like I'm focused on clients that actually have money. So I've worked with a lot of local SEO in the past and I feel like a lot of the niches, they didn't have a ton of money so it was hard to sell someone that just doesn't have the money for your services versus like, I don't know, maybe an attorney that's like, has more clients than they actually have money for your services. So I think that's been Part of my sales process too where it's like versus like I end up creating a pitch or something and they're like oh, like I don't have the money or this is too expensive.

Speaker A: How, how do you go about pricing your offering actually? Is it per hour? Do you base it on value? Has it changed over the last few years or maybe months?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean it really depends on the specific project or type of work. I mean SEO audits I will charge usually based on kind of project fee and then the implementation usually hourly or it's doing upwork or if it's a retainer. I'm usually kind of doing three different packages a month. So it really just depends on me figuring out what their needs are and then kind of pricing it based on that. But I mean on upwork there is you can charge via like hourly or project but I generally prefer you kind of have to figure out like what would be more money. Like if it's a project and you realize it's going to be a lot of time, then I might go with hourly versus like if it's not going to be a ton of hours, I might just do projects. So I don't like thinking about like calculating what's the most advantageous or the most way you'll make the most money.

Speaker A: When you, when you made the switch over to, to freelancing, how did you go about finding your first few clients? And also you, you talk about now you get a lot of your clients from, from upwork. But ah, there's so much noise on upwork. You're competing with the rest of the world. People are undercutting, uh, you know, like crazy. And also they're willing to say yes to any project even if it has, you know, BS intentions behind it. Whereas you're, you say no. How did you go about establishing yourself as a freelancer and getting all these leads?

Speaker B: Yeah, so I mean I did what a lot of people do is um, basically I set up a local freelance. I created a Google my business location and optimized that a bit and I was able to get some leads there. And then I also have a website where I've optimized a bit. I'm um, m having gone super hard on like the off page but I did set up like a few location pages and I've gotten some leads through there. Also was able obviously to do upwork. So initially what I did on there was kind of take on some more low level jobs just to kind of build up the experience and get some feedback which helped and then Probably, I think 2021, I moved to like LinkedIn and started posting on there, which is how me get clients. And then also through some digital pr like podcasting, I've gotten some leads through there too. So, um, kind of just having like what they call like a flywheel. So just kind of optimizing and being visible on multiple channels versus just picking one channel to focus my efforts on.

Speaker A: Um, well, thank you for sharing that. Also, on the personal side of things, I know you share about that a lot on your LinkedIn. So anyone listening to this? You know, I find your LinkedIn post to be so varied and you talk about so many different things and they're so much more relatable than just what everyone else posts about. We could feel with the struggle and the things you've gone through and your life experiences. Sorry about your relationship. Uh, yeah, and I know you also maybe if Nick Lachey is listening to this, I know you said you would like to go on Love is Blind. So let's hope that he's listening to this.

Speaker B: Yeah, that'll be wild.

Speaker A: Well, I'll be rooting for you anyway. So to get back to, uh, more of the, uh, core topic, if you had to identify the single belief about SEO that is most widely held by experienced practitioners but is also wrong, what would that be?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest misconception, at least maybe not now as much as people realize it, but I think, uh, it was the fact that like, traffic is everything and we've realized now that like, traffic's so important, but if you're not visible in LLMs, you're not going to really be successful. I think another one was also people realizing is that there's. They actually, at least now they actually have to know marketing beyond just SEO. So I think it's a lot of people evolving their skill sets and just being competent and probably those two and just. I don't think people are to lose their job necessarily because of AI, but there's definitely some responsibilities that are being outsourced AI, so people just really need to be on top of their, their stuff and keep learning.

Speaker A: And in, uh, you know, all of your years freelancing, you've, you've worked on different types of businesses in different sizes, uh, ranging from local shops to S&P 500 companies. What did the, uh, smaller scale work teach you? Something that the enterprise, uh, couldn't, and vice versa, perhaps in terms of your SEO work?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, with the local stuff, you tend to, I would say, get results faster. And it's more you're working with one person versus enterprise. It's a lot more reporting and storytelling and um, zero tickets and things move a lot slower. So it's kind of like you just need to understand the corporate game and kind of understand that things are going to be a bit slower and just really just communication is key. Uh, versus like if you're doing local SEO, you're working with one person, you're emailing them, it's kind of back and forth or it's just like enterprise where like I mentioned a bit early, where it's like you put in a JIRA ticket and maybe sometimes it takes months, years and more to get work done. So I think it's a lot more having patience as enterprise versus like local SEO where things tend to get done a lot faster and you tend to get quicker results.

Speaker A: Is there a specific type of SEO work you prefer doing over others in terms of industry or size of the company and whatnot?

Speaker B: Good question. Uh, I mean I definitely like E commerce a bit more because they tend to have more money. But I also enjoy the enterprise too just because um, the, it's not like super fast paced where um, I've worked in house, in agencies where it's been so fast paced like I couldn't even like breathe. And I wrote a post where I actually only worked for company for two weeks because it was too fast and I just quit.

Speaker A: I remember that.

Speaker B: Um, yeah, I mean I would say definitely, probably enterprise and then E commerce

Speaker A: SEO and you, you taught, you, you already said this in one of your previous answers. But now SEO work, I mean it, it, it goes beyond right, just Google you have to think about and clients are demanding that uh, for better or for worse, whatever your beliefs are on all of that, we want to be visible in ChatGPT and so on and so forth which calls for different types of, of skill sets and perhaps you know, working with different types of agencies that specialize in either Reddit or in YouTube depending on where you want to be visible. How has that affected your, your job specifically?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean I'm a full time job. We've been focusing more on being active on Reddit and then we've been doing a lot more YouTube. So I'll often get like webinars or videos from like the business line. I'll have to like do a transcript and optimize those things. I think also through um, building my personal brand, I've learned a lot of that naturally where it's like I've done, I've done an AMA where basically I was asked kind of about like how I got into SEO, my experience. So I've learned through there. I've also done podcasting and um, done like some featured.com links. So I've kind of learned it naturally through maybe not having to prioritize it. So um, yeah, I'd probably just say those things.

Speaker A: And early on in your career, when you started freelancing, did you. Because you know, like they always say niche down into a specific industry or specific vertical. I mean you chose technical SEO, but it also seems like you worked on different types of SEO. Did you apply that same reasoning when you started off? Or did you just say, I'm going to go for any type of industry and work on different types of SEO and then eventually you found yourself to really type of specialize into technical SEO but still work across different types of industries. So I would say a bit more of a horizontal type of niching perhaps.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean when I first got out I just wanted to get as much experience as possible and I would be doing anything from on page to outreach to technical SEO audits. So I think for me it was just getting that skill set of the different types of SEO. And then I realized that like technical SEO was the most interesting to me and I wanted to, ah, at least going back to the niches, I was kind of just taking any work I could get versus now where it's like I'm trying to focus on things that are a bit more worth my time and worth my effort and um, not like scam people or steal their money. So I'll turn away people if I just don't feel like they're a good fit for me.

Speaker A: And what would you say are the biggest skills that a, uh, freelancer SEO needs to thrive in this industry, except for working 70 hours a week.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean definitely the sales part, which obviously I told you I'm working on. So there's that, um, I would say getting a good source of leads. So you need that. You also need to understand how to delegate and outsource and train people. And obviously the SEO part, I mean I always say like the SEO part's easy part is everything else that's more challenging. So I think it's just you have to understand and become a business owner and understand SEO is more than just SEO. It's the stuff I mentioned where it's the outsourcing, it's the learning, it's the delegating, it's um, setting realistic expectations, good reporting, things like that.

Speaker A: I'm guessing there must be a bit of reconciliation, uh, to be done as well with the idea that I don't want to sell bs, but at the same time I need to get better at sales, which sometimes, you know, they can kind of merge together. It's hard sometimes because in sales you're typically trying to sell as much as possible and sell a vision that maybe you're not able to actually deliver, um, on. But you know, it's, it's, it's definitely a tough balancing act to be able to stay true to your own ethics and your values while at the same time getting better at sales.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean I've, I've spoken like I would be awful at sales if it was my full time job because I would be too transparent. Like, you don't actually need this product then Peter, like, what are you doing? Why we need the money?

Speaker A: I'm never gonna follow up.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I mean I, I, like, I'll follow up but like I tell someone they don't need something, like I'm saying the truth. So yeah, it would be definitely a conflict of interest.

Speaker A: And do they sometimes come back to you being like, huh, you didn't want to sell us to that, so now we really want it?

Speaker B: Not particularly on, uh, SEO work, but I remember doing an interview many years ago for an SEO role and I had basically said I didn't want the job and they actually came back to me and they're like, are you sure? Like, we think you'd be really a good fit. So I guess that's like the closest I've been to that aspect.

Speaker A: Like an unheard story today in today's market. So that's already pretty cool. Uh, so we're coming on to our last couple questions here. So what's the version of your career you're building towards in, in the future? Like, where do you see yourself going?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, ideally I love to be doing just the freelance full time. So I think like I've mentioned a few times, it's me getting a better foundation, slash better at sales to actually be able to ramp that up. I think another thing too is just getting better at LinkedIn as far as like copywriting on some posts. I feel like that's been always important, but LinkedIn recently has squashed a lot of leads. So, um, me focusing more on there and trying to have some more sales type posts, but I think those two things and ultimately just having a bit more balance and not working as much as I am now.

Speaker A: Ever think about just hiring a Salesperson to help you with the, the sales work. Were you actually dedicated to want to become a better salesperson?

Speaker B: I have not just because I feel like I don't have enough leaves that would justify it. I think if I get to a point where I have the money then maybe I could pay someone for sales. But yeah, I mean right now I just, I don't see the demand, at least the need for me to be paying someone for it. And I think also like fire what

Speaker A: really working on the inbound, wouldn't it consider trying outbound?

Speaker B: I am, I am trying a bit more. I think that's another thing I'm working towards is like I don't send a ton ofDMS on LinkedIn as far as like clients. I mean I did send a DM for a sponsored post which I ended up getting. But yeah, it's definitely something I want to work more on. Uh, without coming off as very salesy in the DMs. Like a lot of people just DM me. It's about backlinks and I just blocked it immediately because they're just Dear Sirs. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker A: You don't want to become a Dear Sir.

Speaker B: No, I mean that's just. I feel like I want to message someone that come off as genuine. It's like if I wouldn't reply to your things, why am I going to send it to someone else?

Speaker A: It makes sense. Yeah. Uh, so you talked about this at the start of the conversation, but obviously you've seen, I mean the industry, uh, you know, over, over a decade change tremendously. You've also seen the rise just not of AI search, but also just AI tools. How has AI actually changed the way you approach uh, your work in SEO either day to day on your projects?

Speaker B: Yeah, so I would say it's, it's kind of a mix of things. I've been using AI a lot more for kind of helping the aid and create JSON schema. So I'm not like proficient in JSON. So it's kind of helped me and kind of like making sure I'm adding in column in the right place or just doing things faster. So I've used it there, I've gotten started to use it a bit more for internal linking for some of my projects. And basically what I'll do is like I'll give it the actual content and I'll give the internal links and kind of give an idea of what a good anchor is. And it's been doing that a bit better. But I, uh, mean I've spoken how, like a lot of the SEO tools, they can already fill a lot of the gaps that people feel like they may need AI for. So I would definitely love to get to the point where a lot of things are more automated, but I feel like the AI tools are probably 90% of the way there. But I feel like they're not as advanced as I would like to have full confidence. And I also do get a bit concerned with the hallucinations and just even some basic SEO information it's hallucinated on. So I think it definitely has its place. But you need to know what you're doing and not trust it blindly to do everything for you.

Speaker A: Exactly. And that's why having the experience and the knowledge about what you need to put as guardrails or checks is so important. And that's what I've noticed. Doing the migration, I'm like, I'll look at it and then I'll be like, okay, I told you to apply the best SEO, best practices, but obviously you didn't really know what that meant, Right? So, uh, you kind of just produce garbage and then you have to go back and check it. And sometimes that takes almost just as long as if you would have done it manually from the start. So, yeah, it's really great. So thank you so much. That was the extent of my questions. We're about 41 minutes here, so we'll end it at that. And it's been a pleasure talking to you, Peter Rota, and if you have any parting words before we end this

Speaker B: call, just keep learning and testing and showing up. I mean, I feel like those have been my biggest differentiators. But, yeah, happy to be here. And thanks again.

Speaker A: Yeah, it was my pleasure. And I'll link your LinkedIn URL in the description so that people can connect with you and follow you and, uh, ask you any questions if they have anything, or just get some inspiration from the stuff you've been posting, because you post very consistently and I find it very interesting. So thank you again for joining us for the Agency Grow series, and I hope to see you on one of our next episodes. Thank you again.

Speaker B: Thank you.