Why isn't your CRO working? Emotional targeting is the missing piece, not button color - with Talia Wolf

Speaker A: This podcast is brought to you by Unbounce Go to Market Solutions. Unbounce is the leading landing page platform for building, testing and optimizing high converting pages. With a drag and drop editor built in, a B testing and AI powered traffic optimization. Informed by data from over 2 billion conversions, Unbounce helps marketers and agencies go to market faster, maximize ROI and and outperform the competition without the need for developers or designers. Visit unbounce.com to learn more. That's unbounce.com. now let's get to closing time. Thanks for tuning in to closing time. The show for Go To Market Leaders. I'm, um, Val Riley, head of marketing for Unbounce and insightly CRM. Today's guest is a conversion optimization pioneer. She has spent over a decade proving that emotion, not button color, is the foundation for what drives customers to buy. She's founder and CEO of Get Uplift, author of the book Emotional Targeting, and a keynote speaker at Google Mozcon and hundreds of other stages worldwide. Welcome to the show, please. Talia Wolfe.

Speaker B: Thank you for having me.

Speaker A: This is so exciting. I'm really glad you're here. Um, I want to start at the beginning, though. Most marketers are trained to think about conversion optimization rate in terms of tactics like a B testing, headlines, tweaking CTAs, shortening forms, removing friction. You've built your entire career on the idea that there is a fundamentally different approach to CRO. What did you note early on that made you realize that maybe conventional CRO was missing something?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question. When I got started, I was doing all that stuff, so I was trying to change the color of a button or move some elements around on the page or change, uh, an image. And I'd hope for results. But what I discovered early on was that if I wanted to increase conversions and really help our clients, I had to understand why people buy from them, what actually drives them to buy things. And one of the initial things I understood is that conversion optimization optimization isn't actually about changing elements on the page in order to increase conversions. It's about solving people's problems. So if I can understand the audience's and the prospect's problems, their challenges, their concerns, their hesitations, what they're trying to feel, uh, then I can optimize the entire customer journey based on that. So instead of just playing with it like a puzzle, it's understanding the customer first and then creating a customer journey for them that's really built for the way they make decisions and helping them Make a safe, uh, decision that they feel comfortable with.

Speaker A: All right, I think that brings us to your three step emotional targeting framework. Step one is research. But you're clear that this isn't your typical, like, demographic research, right? Walk us through what meaningful research actually looks like and where marketers should actually be looking for those emotional insights.

Speaker B: Yeah, so one of the most important things I understood was that every decision that we make in life is based on emotion. Whether you're buying something for yourself or for a company, there's always emotion involved. And I understood that in order for me to increase conversions, I need to understand what is driving those emotions, why people buy, the psychology behind the decision. And step number one is research. During the research, we're not just looking at, uh, data and quantitative, uh, information. What we're looking at is qualitative data. And in this instance, what we're looking for is actually hearing how people describe their own pains, their own challenges, how they want to feel, how they feel right now, how they want to feel about themselves, or how they want other people to feel about them. So the research is really deep into interviewing your customers and doing, uh, surveys, polls, but most importantly, doing something we like to call social listening. And social listening is essentially combing Reddit, uh, LinkedIn, YouTube, Discord, Facebook, in order to see real, authentic conversations that people are having and seeing how they make decisions and what they actually think about the industry and about competitors and about the brand and really piecing together how people make decisions and then using that in order to optimize our websites. So, yeah, step number one is definitely that, just diving deep into understanding who we're actually catering and how they feel and what they're looking for.

Speaker A: You know, so many people want to bash social media. I was doing marketing in a pre social media era, which, uh, I know dates me quite a bit. And the truth is we didn't really have access to that type of data unless you did, um, like a research study, like a, a qualitative research study. And a lot of times people aren't really honest. They answer those studies with what they think they should do or what they think you want to hear. So I really do believe one of the benefits of sites like Reddit and even social media sites is we get a lot of insight into people's emotions and they're just putting it out there for us. Whereas literally, like 20 years ago, it was really hard to get that information.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And I would say that the entire emotional targeting framework actually came from, from those original marketing campaigns for offline campaigns, you know, the ones that you'd see and you still do on television and on the radio where you couldn't actually measure things. But they're all driven by emotion and they'd all do very robust big research pieces to understand customers and speak to them and go to where they are and actually spend time with them. And my goal was to create a process that would help me do that online. Um, and that is, you know, right now everyone considers these spaces, like Reddit and like Quora and like Facebook, the places that authentic conversations are happening. So people are really talking about how they make a decision or they're talking about what, you know, keeps them up at night or what annoys them or what they love about a brand. And that is where the gold mine really is. And just understanding that and simply reading through it and even seeing, hey, is my brand even mentioned? Are my competitors being mentioned? Is it positive, is it negative? What is, what are questions that people are asking, uh, on Reddit that we don't actually answer on our website or in our emails or in our faq. And these are questions that we should, or we should be writing content about that stuff. So it's just a gold mine.

Speaker A: Yeah, it is. And I think you used an interesting word there. It's authentic. I think people are being authentic on those sites. And so it really does drive it home even more. Um, okay, back to the framework. Once you've done your research, you actually understand what your customers are feeling. You move into step two of the framework, which you call the emotional targeting audit. This sounds quite different from like a typical CRO audit that just checks like, is your CTA above the fold? How's your page speed? Um, so what are you actually looking for when you audit through like more of an emotional lens?

Speaker B: So that's definitely part of it. When we talk about, um, a CRO audit, most people do jump immediately to, okay, how heuristic audit, a UX audit, best practices, so speed. So we do that stuff, but we go a much deeper layer and that is an emotional targeting audit. And that is once we have all the insights about the customers and we know them better and we understand really why they choose one brand over another, then we're able to actually look at the website with fresh eyes in our customers eyes and ask ourselves the important strategic questions like, are we making it about ourselves or are we making it about the customer? Are we telling the stories that people care about? Are we highlighting the outcomes people actually want? Are we actually, um, discussing the pains that they feel all that stuff is how we are able to figure out what's not working. Because the most frustrating thing about conversion optimization is that there's so many blog posts out there telling you how to fix a landing page of what to do, but there's something's not working. You've tried all this stuff, you've done all the things that these blog posts and gurus are telling you and it's still not working. And what's missing is that emotional layer. It's that strategic layer. We're constantly looking at pages like elements and not stories. So when you want to actually understand, okay, why aren't people converting? You need to ask yourself these strategic questions in order to really see from your customers eyes. And that's what's great about it, is because once you do this, this audit, it's really much easier to identify why people aren't converting. Because you'll clearly see, oh, I'm using social proof that just doesn't connect with people. I'm focused on an outcome people don't actually care about or they assume is already, you know, going to happen anyway. Or I'm focused on these features or I'm telling these stories, I'm m highlighting these things that people don't care about. And it just pieces the puzzle together for you so that you're able to clearly see why people aren't converting. And then you can run more meaningful tests, which is the third step.

Speaker A: I was going to say that's a great segue because we're going to. The third step is testing. And again you're saying this isn't about like the button color or the hero image or whatever. Um, but when you're testing how you're testing basically the emotional targeting that you've done to make sure you've hit on the right points.

Speaker B: So the idea of running meaningful tests is that you're not testing for the sake of testing. You're not just asking, okay, what should we test next? Um, but you have a hypothesis, you have done your research and now you know, for example, that people, your prospects can't easily see that this product that you've created is designed for people like them. They can't clearly see the difference between you and your competitor because everyone's saying the same, looking the same, using the same AI stuff and it's hard to tell the difference between one product and the other. So now you have a hypothesis. And now it's so much easier to run a meaningful test, meaning it's not just let's, you know, change the Button or remove a form field and hope it works. But you're saying, okay, let's try an experiment where we're weaving in social proof about, uh, the specific pains that we've uncovered. Let's try rewriting the page in a way that focuses on these pains or these hierarchies or these, uh, results that people want. So the idea of running a meaningful test is that you're not just running it for the sake of running it, but you're actually coming into it with a hypothesis and that you're learning from every test because you could have an hypothesis that says, I think people can't clearly see that this product is for them. And you could try one thing and it won't work, but the hypothesis still stands true. You just have to find a different way to show that on the page. So you try some testimonials and that doesn't work. Or maybe you try a different story or a different angle, uh, a whole different customer, uh, journey or a whole email sequence. But the idea is that you learn from every test that you run and that once you do get interesting results, you're able to give them to everyone in your marketing department, from product marketing to even customer success and sales are all learning from your tests and able to talk to your customers in the same way. So the entire customer journey is aligned.

Speaker A: So you've once again popped into my next question. But I think it's great because exactly what I was going to say. We talk a lot at, uh, Unbounce about landing pages, but it really has to be the full customer journey. One thing that you, we haven't covered yet is, you know, that concept of land you don't own. Right. So you mentioned the customer journey, not just the landing page. Maybe it's the email sequences, maybe it's the sales sequences, maybe it's the script the sale sales team is using. But, but, um, on, you know, rented spaces, how do you manage or use the optimization on those spaces, um, that are outside of your control?

Speaker B: Yeah. So I think first it's important to say that we do actually have to be on those spaces. So forever and ever, CRO has always been optimization has been about optimizing, as you said, the lands that we own, the assets that we own. But now the decision to buy, whether you're buying a landing page builder or you're buying accounting software or a dog leash, has moved off of the website. So people are making decisions before they come to your website. And when they land on your website, they already have formed opinions and emotions about you. And so it's not enough to just optimize your website and your landing pages, which you absolutely have to, but, uh, you also have to be in those spaces where people are making decisions. So if your audience is out there engaging on Reddit or on discord or on YouTube and commenting on stuff, you have to be there, not just to learn and gain insight about them, but also shape the narrative, meaning having conversations, engaging with people, uh, shaping and actually being comfortable with having conversations that don't link back to your website, that don't have direct attribution, but just being in those spaces because you want people to see you for who you are. And presumably you have a great product, so you want people to know that. But if you're not there, someone else is controlling the narrative. Someone else is deciding what people will feel about you. And you can start by doing that with even your social media. So engaging in social media on different platforms and actually seeing how people respond to stuff, and then also answering people on Reddit and then also maybe commenting on YouTube. But doing all that stuff creates a cohesive customer journey so that what people learn about you off of the website connects with what you're saying on your website or your landing pages or your emails. So, yeah, conversion optimization isn't. It isn't just about what you own anymore. You have to be everywhere, all at once, all the time.

Speaker A: I think this is even exacerbated by, you know, AI, search geo, whatever you call it. You know, so much is happening, um, within those LLMs, and you can just influence that. But your website is where, you know, people go to get information about you. But more important importantly, sometimes where those LLMs go to get information about you. Um, when, when I, if you had told me even eight years ago that I would have a budget line item, um, to have somebody monitoring Reddit for our company, I would have probably told you you were a little crazy. But it is so important. That's one of the main sources for a lot of these LLMs. And you, you have to, like, manage your relationship. There's.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I do think that this is a great opportunity for small brands. So forever and ever we've had the situation where the biggest brands have the biggest name and they can say whatever they want, but now they can't hide behind a polished website anymore. And LLMs are telling people how to feel about you and what to think about you. But if you're a small company or you're just getting started, you have the opportunity to share, shape that conversation on Reddit to be the first one who doesn't have brand guidelines and all sorts of rules about how to discuss things and you can be there and shape the narrative and be the one that kind of dominates that. So I think that there's a lot of things that I do not like, and that is an understatement about AI. Um, but it does force many brands to be real and authentic because a lot of brands, for example, don't want to talk about their pricing. But now if you go in into an LLM, it will just tell you the pricing. So you can either own that yourself and talk about it and be real about it, or the Internet will. So I think there's a big opportunity here because of zero click marketing and because of LLMs, uh, to start optimizing off of the website and actually own the market by being there and engaging in those conversations.

Speaker A: Yeah, I really feel like this is a huge opportunity for what I call challenger brands, um, brands that may not, like you're saying, have the largest budgets or the most historical concepts, um, context where traditional search models favored those brands. I do feel like GEO is giving an opportunity to challenger brands to be authentic, to be in the conversation where really it was getting a little cost prohibitive for a lot of challenger brands for a while. So I, I think that's a huge opportunity.

Speaker B: Agreed.

Speaker A: Um, so, um, any other tips? You know, like if you look at your resume, it's very impressive, but you've worked with a lot of big brands. So in addition to being on Reddit or um, uh, you know, some of those other social sites, are there any other possibilities for some smaller brands to take something away from our conversation today?

Speaker B: Yeah, I would say the most important thing is research. Do not skip, do not pass go. Very important. Uh, the research is what sets you apart from everyone. While everyone is using AI to write their copy. And you're probably noticing, and I'm seeing this in every industry, how all competitors and everyone in your industry is kind of blending into one wishy washy sentence and everyone's saying the same stuff and it's getting harder and harder for consumers to tell the difference between you and your competitor. So the research is what's going to set you apart if you do the hard work, and there's no way around it that it's hard work, but if you do the hard work, you're going to have so much more information about your customers and how to speak to them and what words to use and how to relate to them than anyone else. And you can then do everything we discussed. So the most important thing is research. And if you. You only have one hour this week, do a survey or spend one hour on Reddit just reading through threads. Don't even try and analyze. Just go through the thing and read it and read it and consume to see what people are saying about you, how they're talking about you, what the narrative is, what the negative and the positive things is. So there's so much you can do on a zero budget.

Speaker A: All right, so that's your challenge for this week. Everybody out there. Talia's, uh, saying if you have one hour, that's your assignment and you're going to learn so much. Um, Talia, this has been such a great conversation. I feel like I need to go immediately and, you know, go audit all of our landing pages. Um, before I let you go, where can people find you? Follow your work and learn more about GetUplift.

Speaker B: So, um, there's a couple of places, obviously you can go to Getuplift Co. Um, you can also go to Taliawolf.com where you can get my book. And you can see you can get a bunch of resources. And of course, you can connect with me on LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm always around. Or on my podcast, uh, Heart before cut.

Speaker A: Awesome. Again, thank you so much. Um, that's a wrap on today's episode of Closing Time. If this conversation sparked something for you, be sure to share it with a teamwork. Maybe someone who's stuck in a button color testing loop. Remember, m, you can get this episode and every episode of Closing Time delivered right to your inbox. Just click that link in the show notes and we will see you next time.