Inside the Studio: Smith & Diction

Narrator: This episode of A Change of Brand is brought to you by Future London Academy, the executive school for Creatives. Keep listening to learn more.

Mike Smith: Alma was definitely the most heat I've ever got and I knew going into it, I knew that there was going to be an issue, but a lot of the comments were just like, what was it like? I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed. Yeah, like I'm disappointed that they did this. Like, I thought that Smith and Diction was like the design studio and, and like, I do have to remind people sometimes that like, I'm not your hero. Like, I never signed up for that. That's not something that I, like ever wanted to be.

Narrator: Hey everyone.

Blake Howard: Welcome to A Change of Brand, a show featuring behind the scenes stories of rebrand glory, drama or disaster. I'm your host, Blake How.

Narrator: We just wrapped up season six and now we have a special bonus episode for you all. As someone who has been in the creative agency for nearly two decades, I've always wanted to learn more about how

Blake Howard: others run their business.

Narrator: Maybe sales, process, culture, you name it, I want to learn it all. All I've ever known really is how we do things at Matchstick, so I find it fascinating to hear how others do it as well. Today we're going to go inside the studio with Smith M and Diction, a design studio that has gained attention through doing things kind of their own way, not conforming to the agency norms. Smith and Diction are a husband and wife duo based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. They've built a great reputation for their work, but also how they work. Unlike many agencies that keep their process behind closed doors. Special Smith and Diction first gained some publicity by sharing their process and pitch deck as a live Figma link out on the Internet. For example, on LinkedIn, they posted a FIGMA link sharing options for a hotel brand they were working on at that moment, and I had never seen that done before. This level of transparency has set them apart and challenged process norms in a good way, but they haven't been free from critique. As early adopters of new tools, Smith and Diction was one of the first to experiment with AI generated imagery. They helped launch an AI nutrition assistant app called Alma that used AI generated images and collages throughout the app. Between sharing their work publicly and sharing how they work publicly, it's hard not to ask why when it feels like they're giving away so much of their secret sauce. I really enjoyed my conversation with Mike and Cara back in April of 2025 and I hope you do as well,

Mike Smith: I'm Mike Smith. I'm the co founder and art director here at Smith Addiction.

Cara Smith: And I'm Cara, um, also Cara Smith, and I run the copy and strategy side of the business. So, you know, I like to sound the diction half of Smith Addiction.

Mike Smith: She also runs, like, new business sending invoices, literally everything.

Blake Howard: I love it. I didn't know that that was your background. I didn't realize it was, like, writing strategy combo on the design. That's cool.

Cara Smith: Yeah, yeah. We. We got started. He was my art partner and I was his copy partner at, like, our big agency job. And then we worked together for, like, eight months. And then we're like, all right, I guess we should just maybe m. We should just hang out all the time.

Blake Howard: No way. I love it. Office romance. That's cool.

Mike Smith: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Narrator: It was.

Cara Smith: Yep. Classic.

Blake Howard: Yeah.

Mike Smith: I mean, we were starting, uh, as such a small studio to be able to offer copywriting for. At, like, you know, a strategic copywriting, like, with a one design partner. We were charging, like, absolutely nothing. And you got both of us, which was great. So the name was, like, kind of playing off of that, which was cool.

Cara Smith: Yeah, Yeah. I wanted to feel like, you know, one of those, like, old, like, partnerships, like Joe and whatever, um, like in the Mad Men days of advertising. But I was, at the time, we were also engaged. And so I was like, I know I'm about to change my name, so, like, it wouldn't make sense to, like, Smith and my Naden name. So I was like, how do I represent my half of it? And so that's where diction came from.

Mike Smith: Yeah.

Blake Howard: Tell me more about the. Just the background. Like, how did you all go from being partners at the big agency to starting Smith and Diction?

Cara Smith: It's a great question.

Mike Smith: I love to tell this story. So Kara, like, came in and we were, like, going to Buffalo. I was super mad, like, at their. At our job. They were, like, flying us out to Buffalo for this big project. It was her first day, first time ever meeting me. And I was like, hi, I'm Mike. We're going to Buffalo together. And like, in the middle of the winter, it was so bleak.

Cara Smith: I didn't know, like, I didn't know I was going to be going to Buffalo. I was like, I literally just got here, man. I'm doing the first walk around. I don't have a desk.

Narrator: Yeah.

Mike Smith: Uh, and I was like, this is

Cara Smith: news to me that we're going to Buffalo. Nice to meet you.

Mike Smith: And then we were there for a client discovery and we were there on my birthday and I was like super mad because I was away from my friends, away from like the plans I had made. And so we hung out on my birthday and I was like, all right, she's pretty cool. So, uh. But yeah, and then we kind of just, we worked on like, what, like five or six projects together, like, really deep in it. Like, we're talking 12 hour days, working every single minute.

Cara Smith: Yeah.

Mike Smith: And then I was like, oh, she's like, so smart. And like, I say the dumbest thing and then she spits it back as the smartest thing. And it was like this perfect collaboration of just like, I can have really dumb big ideas and she can make them rational and like, and really thoughtful. I. I always, always, always wanted to run my own studio, but I know I knew I needed so much more experience in the field, uh, because I, I was like super irrational at the very beginning of my career. Like, just like, design rules everything and I don't care about anything else. And, you know, you have to kind of, you do have to care about

Cara Smith: other things, but, you know, yes, you

Mike Smith: get there, you get there.

Blake Howard: I want to dive in just a little bit more behind the scenes. And maybe to start with would be like, how do you, how do you get new clients? That's one of the areas that, you know, creative people don't necessarily want to go into sales per se, you know, but then as you start your own studio, that's very much front and center on your mind. So how do you guys think about winning, winning new business and bringing on new clients?

Cara Smith: Yeah, you know what? The. I feel like the older we get, the more we say, like, half of design is sales, like half of what we do. Over the course of a project, it's like you're selling the studio, you're selling that we can do this project, and then you have to sell the idea through so that they buy the concept that you presented.

Blake Howard: Yeah.

Cara Smith: Um, and I think that's one of those things that, like, early on you were like, I don't care about any of that. I'm just going to do the design. And I feel like we've grown a lot over the past because we've been in business 10 years now. So the past 10 years we've learned a lot more that like, the sales piece is important and if you sell it right, then, like, the whole project goes smoother. Are one of the things that I say to young folks who are starting out is basically, you want to make sure that you're selling the thing that you're actually doing, like it. We made this mistake earlier on in our career of like, being like, yeah, we can do anything. And then if that's not really what you do, they're not going to be happy and the relationship is not going to go well. Whereas if you can be really clear about what it is you're delivering from the very beginning, then they know what to expect and then they're happy at the end because you gave them exactly what they wanted. So in terms of our process, we're pretty careful up at the front of the conversations now. We're, like, super transparent with, like, here's what we do, here's what we don't do. We're not going to be building out X, Y and Z. We are going to be giving you this other thing. And so the expectations, I feel like, are pretty aligned from the very beginning of the project.

Mike Smith: I think it's really interesting. Like, two and a half years ago, we put out the process document as like a very specifically focused thing. And that took off in a way that we couldn't even have possibly imagined. Like, we had people from in house client spots being like, hey, I saw that document and I showed it to my boss and they want to hire you guys. And then, like, then we had new, uh, like people who are starting startups and they were just like, I had no idea what the design process was and now I saw it and you guys are. Since you made it, I would. I just thought I should reach out to you. Um, and so that's the gift that keeps giving. Honestly, like, I don't know how or why it keeps going, but that's good. Twitter definitely is like a major place that I share most of my work. Like, Twitter, to me was like, a really great place because it's like, I didn't care about it as much. I didn't hold it in this, like, Instagram lens of like, Instagram, um, polished and beautiful and whatever, like Twitter. I was just like, I don't know, I'm working on this G. There's anybody else. Do you like this G?

Cara Smith: Yeah.

Mike Smith: Um, what kind of set us in this place of like, we shared a lot of stuff. Stuff and a lot of behind the scenes and things like that. And so we kind of got in on this, like, designer, as a designer, like, space, uh, which I think has been really, really helpful. But I would say, like, a lot of it comes from process and then a majority of it comes from word of mouth. We don't do any, like, outward, like,

Cara Smith: marketing or you put a lot of energy though into like the Medium creative community. I mean like you like, yeah, following people online, communicating with them, like you know, commenting on other people's articles and work and like being, being online. I think that that's how you became.

Mike Smith: I think it's like I just like genuinely love design like so much and I'm like to an obsessive level. So like anytime someone's publishing something and I'm just like that makes me feel away, like good, bad, whatever. I'm not going to be the person that holds it in. Like I'm just like you, yo, this is so sick. Like I love this stuff and like just doing that, like people will be like, thanks for, thanks for writing that. And then like you have like a, A, a community start to happen just through genuine enthusiasm for design. For design.

Blake Howard: The level of transparency that you have in social and just publishing work in progress or even using Medium for your deeper dive case studies and the way you write the case studies, I think it's so interesting. It kind of like gets into this space of how transparent can you be as a design firm working on very, just like confidential projects. So the, the way that you all share work in progress, you know, Figma obviously is a platform that gives you the ability now to just sort of like share a link. So tell me more about like the, the first time you said, well, what if we just post this Figma board on the Internet and see what people think?

Mike Smith: Yeah, yeah.

Cara Smith: I mean I think it started even before figma. It was like when we started the business, I still had a full time job and Mike was like, how do I get any kind of feedback on design? I mean he would ask me for feedback, but he was like, I need more than one set of eyes on a logo before I present it. So he was like, you know, asking his design friends, but then he just also decided to start asking the Internet in general. And I feel like that was the beginning of this idea that like, well, why does it have to be perfect? Like let me put something out into the world and saying it's a work in progress and asking for feedback. And that started to create this sense of like design community, I think, and this sense of like very open, transparent collaboration.

Mike Smith: And then it got so big that we wrote it into our contract.

Cara Smith: Yeah, we started putting it into our contracts. Every once in a while we'll get a client who's got like big NDA and they want to do a launch and we take it out. But so the clients always know that we're allowed to share it online. And most of them are like, great. More presses, good press. Like, I don't care. You know, it's like, for, like, small

Mike Smith: startups, they're like, it's part of the marketing strategy. Like, it's like, yeah, we want to be, like, in the design community or something like that. And then, like, a lot of times in the early days, I was working for, like, coffee shops and, like, you know, things that were, like, if their logo leaked out, it wasn't a big deal. And so if I, like, were to rewind, like, all the way back, like, when I was in college, I went to, like, a regular state school school, and a lot of the people in my classes were not giving, like, like, good feedback on the work. Like, and I grew up in the era of, like, ISO 50, uh, design work, life Grain, Edit, like, all these really awesome, like, blogs. So I was like, I'm just gonna write my own blog. And then no one read it. So I was like, anytime I, like, I made me made a screen print. I was doing some street art stuff, and I was, like, writing these long blogs and on WordPress, and it was like, just, like, so poorly laid out. But I was just writing it because I felt like I wasn't getting that same sort of interaction at school. Um, and so I was writing it to be like, this is how I'm justifying making these things. This is how I'm doing that. And so I, like, that was like, in my blood of, like, just writing, writing, writing about design because I loved it. And then it slowly turned into, okay, like, I'm going to write about making my wedding stationary. Like, nobody read that. And then I wrote one blog post about, um, how I worked with an agency to rebrand them, and then they killed all of my logos, and that one blew up. Like, they were just like, oh, my gosh, he's saying the things that nobody says out loud. Like, yeah, sometimes you just don't get it. Like, sometimes it doesn't happen. And then I was like, oh, people, like, dig this.

Blake Howard: I love that. Well, you know, that's part of even why this podcast exists, because you can look at, like, the final case study of an agency, a, uh, big brand, and you can like it or not like it or critique it or whatnot, but all of the steps that it took to get there, like, that's what I'm interested in. In managing that process is so hard that you start to appreciate anything that saw the light of day. And so that's where I wanted to, like, hear stories and understand the twists and the turns and the ups and the downs and the. All the rounds that failed. Because that to me is like, that. That's the real art in a lot of this.

Cara Smith: I love it.

Mike Smith: And I agree.

Cara Smith: I feel like we've been talking about this lately a little bit as, like, it's like an iceberg, right? Like, the work you put in, it's like 90% of it never sees the light of day. It's all under the water.

Mike Smith: Even strategy.

Cara Smith: Like, even the strategy. The, like, recovery sessions, like, all the client meetings and like, like I was saying, like, selling it through to a client, all of that. But the reason that the top of the iceberg is above the water is because of, uh, all of that work that stands underneath it. So, yeah, there's. It. It's so fun for anyone who's in that field to be able to see what went into it. And I feel like it also is so educational. Like, I remember being young and like, when we were at the agency or something, somebody would get their hands on some sort of presentation deck from some big studio.

Mike Smith: Yeah. You would, like, randomly get like a Pentagram style guide or something, and you'd be like, oh, how are they doing?

Blake Howard: Look at this.

Mike Smith: They're color. They're doing strategy this way. They're in color this way. Oh, they're talking. This is how they're doing their mockups. And like, you would see it and you would fundamentally change everything. Yeah, yeah, so we saw that. We saw that stuff and we're just like, what if we shared everything? Yeah. You know what I mean? And, uh, luckily our clients, I mean, some clients are like, definitely, like, don't. Don't share it. But, like, all the ones I have shared are for, like, very small, little local projects, you know, hotel.

Cara Smith: Google them and find more about them. That's good.

Blake Howard: Yeah, I love that. And we have clients sometimes that, well, we just can't ever do a case test even though the work's out and published. They're like, you just can't. We don't. We don't need, you know, it's. It's part of our agreement in the front end. And then sometimes we have clients that, uh, it's okay for us to do the case study, but we kind of go round and round and round on the final case study that's going to be published, which there's definitely like a little. You're like, okay, you guys took the 90% of what we did, and then you applied it to to the website. Our, our initial website mock up was a little different. We don't really want to show yours because we didn't do it, you know, so there's like weird ethical lines in that also that um, so that's what I think. That's partly where I'm even coming from of being so impressed that you share work in progress. Because we've had to deal with a lot of the, the opposite end of that of like they don't want any transparency with who did the work. They actually want the in house group to feel like they were the ones that did all the work. You know, we're kind of just really behind the scenes.

Cara Smith: Yeah, that's tough. And it really, you know, it really depends on who the client is. Like it's, I get that sometimes or when you're a bigger company, there's a lot of reasons why you don't want that sort of thing to go well.

Mike Smith: And I do think that bigger companies are not attractive to working with me because of, because of that. You know what I mean? Like they know that I might post something randomly that doesn't go through legal, doesn't go through whatever.

Blake Howard: Yes, well there's, I think there's always pros and cons to uh, client size. I think in particular, like there were year years ago, maybe, maybe six or seven years ago, I was working on a really fun, fast, casual, upand cominging concept. So fun, like Tex Mex, like dream project. But then we were also working with a billionaire for some internal purpose work. And I remember I had, in one day I had different meetings. One we presented to the CEO of this small startup and it was so fun, so easy, like he loved the work, he was so thankful for it. And then later that afternoon I had my third pre call to make sure I was saying the right words for when I got in the room with the billionaire and I was like, this is just too much, you know, like let me in that room and let me just do my thing. I don't need two and three calls to make sure I don't say uh, a verb the wrong way. You know, so there's pros and cons for sure.

Mike Smith: That kind of stuff like is really hard for me. Like I'm super, super off the cuff. Like if you tell me not to say something then it's planted in my mind and I will mess it up and I will say it. You know what I mean?

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Blake Howard: Okay, back to the show. When you do share work online, is there, are there any like negative side effects to it or are there ever any, any like, situations you've had where you're like, ooh, it kind of went sideways.

Cara Smith: I mean, I was very nervous it was going to go sideways when we shared the ALMA work. Oh yeah, because we were like using AI and like, like the AI conversation is so heated and there's so many opinions.

Mike Smith: ALMA was definitely the most heat I've ever got. And I knew going into it, I knew that there was going to be, uh, an issue, but a lot of the comments were just like, what was it like? I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed. Yeah, like, I'm disappointed that they did this. Like, I thought that Smith and Diction was like the design studio and like, I do have to remind people sometimes that like, I'm not your hero. Like, I never signed up for that. That's not something that I like ever wanted to be. And then for me the ALMA work was like, yes, we use AI, but, but I used AI with a, uh, very, very specific reason and like concept and structure. It wasn't like, I was just like, this tool's new and here's new stuff. It was like we really wanted to do the collage aspect of, of the food and there was like no other way to do it in a way that we could have done it at the scale of our studio, at the scale of Alma M the ALMA folks, without tapping into that. And I like have talked to Colin at Visual Electric. He's trying to build it in a, in a really responsible kind of way that uses like public domain and all that stuff. So I was like, if I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it with the one that is the most responsible in terms of output. And I'm so proud of that. Work. I think that the clause stuff is really cool and it really makes the brand so much more engaging. And it was like directly on strategy, exactly what the client was like really hyped about. And it pushed us to get into some new territories. And even like in the style guide we were like showing how to break down prompting and all that kind of stuff. So it was really new and fresh. And I feel like if you're not trying to push the envelope and not trying to learn something new, then like what's the point? You know what I mean?

Cara Smith: Like there are people who are like never AI for the sake of.

Mike Smith: And I'm totally fine with them principles, which is like M. That's totally five

Cara Smith: respects respect for that for sure.

Blake Howard: Yeah.

Mike Smith: Um, and I'm not a never AI. I'm not, I'm. Well, I'm not like an all AI person, but I'm a person that's like, if this can make the concept 10 times more powerful, if AI can act as a multiplier for the concept, then I'm gonna explore it. It's not something that is going to be baked into every single project. We do. Like, we have a new project coming out soon. Once I get the photographs of like a, uh, wine brand I'm working on, it's like purely Smith and diction.

Cara Smith: Like no way.

Mike Smith: I know AI, like custom illustration, insane systems, like all that kind of stuff. And so I'm so excited to get back on that to, to get my, my fan base off the disappointment train.

Blake Howard: Well, it's tricky because it does feel like there's a comparison to when the desktop computer was, was sort of introduced. And I am not old enough to really remember that, but I was designing late 90s, early 2000s and I, I overlapped with some people. I was at Sony Music in Nashville and there, there was some old school like layered um, film cut paper designers that hated the idea of computers. They were using them, but they hated it, you know, and it feels very similar to that in uh, it feel in, in terms of like it's just happening and it's a tool. We have to learn how to do it the right way responsibly and ethically with our, our principles and values in place. But it was interesting to me that the performance.gov website that pentagram did got just blasted. I mean it was like so on their Pentagram, uh, Instagram post it was some mean things. People are just mean. You know, on the Internet they just say mean things. But then the ALMA work from my perspective was like, not Blasted, you know, not to that degree. It was. It was, like, praised, and a lot of people really enjoyed it. So I was curious, like, why do you think there was a difference there in some of those reactions?

Cara Smith: I think it was partly just the way that it was framed, honestly. Um, I think that Pentagram put it out as like, this is the future. And there is, honestly, in a lot of the way that a lot of the AI feels like it's being thrust upon the world and we don't have a choice. Uh, and it felt like it was part of that, like, one more thing being jammed down our throat and us being like, actually, we thought about it and we only used it because it felt appropriate. I think people appreciated that sort of, like, thoughtfulness we put in.

Mike Smith: Yeah.

Cara Smith: I also have thought before that maybe one of the reasons we sort of escaped was because they dropped so similar in time that, like, all the heat went to Pentagram and there was no heat left for us, you know? You were like, I already said my bit. I'm good.

Narrator: Yes.

Mike Smith: I. I, like, I was emailing with Armin about, you know, I was like, I sent the ALMA work to him and I was like, hey, man, I'm, like, really hesitant to send this to you. I don't know if you feel comfortable publishing something that has AI in it. Um, and, you know, whatever. And then we were on a thread, just chatting, and he was just like, listen, people love to hate Pentagram. That's just like, what? That's just part of it. Like, you're. You are really tiny. They're really big. And when a, uh, small studio is using AI, they're just like, they're trying to punch above their, you know, their weight. And when a big, huge conglomerate is using AI, they're like, they're stealing. So it's like. And it's like, do you think their budget got any less? I don't know. But then Paul share was like, the budget even wasn't even really crazy. So, like, don't come at me. Like, it's not like we took this massive budget. It wasn't there for the illustrators anyway.

Cara Smith: Yeah.

Mike Smith: And so to me, I'm just like, it's a David versus Goliath kind of thing. And. And sadly, when people chose the. The lesser two evils, it was us. You know what I mean? And so, um. But, like, Kara said, like, we wrote, like, this blog post that had, like, a section on why we used it that was like, this long of, like, we tried other things and we were excited about other things. And this thing was the most exciting thing. And it's something that just worked to 10x the concept and really put us in a situation that we couldn't have done without it. And, you know, that was exciting for us to try something new. And like I said, it's like it's not going to be on every project, but I'm also not never going to do it.

Blake Howard: Yeah, it is interesting about the David Goliath angle and people loving to hate Pentagram. I mean, they're such a leader. They do so many things that, yeah, it, it feels like the, the target's on your back when you're at that scale doing those types of projects. So that makes sense. What about Day to Day? Like, do you, do you guys, do you guys leverage it today in anything that you're working on? Like any workflow?

Cara Smith: In little ways. I mean, for sure. It's like, you know, perplexity. We use all the time for just finding things. It's lovely. Um, or chatgpt is a great place for me. If I'm like writing headlines, I'm like, Write me 50 headlines. And then you're like, great. I didn't have to do the work of coming up with all the ones that were like, trite. They did that work for me. And then I can be like, if they, if ChatGPT can come up with something straight out with a very simple prompt, then it probably wasn't a very good. You can't buy anyway, so that like, gets that out of the way. But it also sometimes will be like,

Mike Smith: it's nice to see it.

Cara Smith: Yeah, it's good to see it. And it's just like, gets you over that writer's block. Um, and then I also use it in other ways of like. Oh, you know, like when you're mocking up fake user profiles, you're like, Great, give me 45 person names, you know, and then I'll have to use my brain to think of like people names. I can just be like, here's some fake names you can put in your mockups, you know?

Mike Smith: Yeah, and we use granola AI like all the time. Like that's something that, uh, it's just been. They have like the best tagline. It's like uh, AI note taker for people who are in back to back meetings. And it's like truly genuinely magic if you just write like the outline of what's happening so you can focus on like the conversation you're having. You just write a simple outline and then it fills in the rest in bulleted points with hierarchical or hierarchy, uh, typographic hierarchy throughout the whole thing. It's like truly, genuinely magic.

Cara Smith: Yeah. And I love those things that, like, neither one of us, like, we're both creative in background. Neither one of us wants to be taking the notes in the meeting and recapping it and sending it to the client. So, like, AI can do that. And I am not mad, you know.

Blake Howard: Great.

Cara Smith: Thank you.

Mike Smith: Yes.

Blake Howard: But it's like, good use of it for sure.

Mike Smith: Like, creatively, it's like, I'll pop into Visual Electric if I need to, like, get an idea going. And like, honestly, like, I use ChatGPT for, like, to make dumb stuff to make memes. Like, that's what I'll use to make. You know what I mean? Like, I was making like, a joke for a talk that we're, uh, we're about to give in San Francisco, and I was like, I just need this. This meme to look like this other meme. And so I was like, put them in there. I was like, make these two things mash together. And so I'll use it for that stuff. I'm not using it to, like, generate, like, client things, but Visual Electric I'll use to make like, cool ephemeral backgrounds or something like that.

Blake Howard: The mock up game has definitely been strengthened with Visual Electric. And like, sometimes, like we were doing one last week. I need a, like, a modern, clean interior of an optometrist with a small little like, promotional plate. You know, you're like, I can't. I can't find that anywhere else. So, like. But Visual Electric is like, boom, here you go.

Mike Smith: Like, that's just like, it helps to provide some scenery sometimes, like, around stuff. And like, I just never wanted to be doing conceptual thinking for me. Like, I don't want to be typing in stuff that's like. Like, give me, me. Give me the idea that I can then go build under it. Because, like, I love coming up with the idea. That's my. Like when Car and I get on an idea and like, we can't stop. Like, we miss meetings because we're connected to.

Cara Smith: Is he brainstorming? Yeah.

Mike Smith: Right? And it's just like, I don't know. That's why we're together. That's why we. We started dating is because, like, the. The chemistry of like, when we get on an idea, it feels like we're in our own world. World together. And like, why would I ever, like, let a computer, like, do. Do that part, you know?

Cara Smith: And I'm sure we'll get to the point like we've done a little bit in Alma, uh, of like here's how to get your specific generated images and I'm sure that there will like eventually be more of that of like when I write your writing guidelines, I'll be like here's some sample prompts that work and what to do and what not to do. Like I know that that's kind of

Mike Smith: um, it's just practical.

Cara Smith: We're not really there yet, but I, I know that's going to be the future, that some amount of content will be generated by AI.

Mike Smith: It's like I wish like we're, we're super busy. I do wish if, like maybe if I was a little less busy that I would like dive into like setting up the parameters around like sustainable ways to maintain brand language and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, I think uh, Judd on Twitter or threads or whatever, he's at uh, design business company and they just put out a little article about like what they, they're kind of using like a custom made thing that they're handing off to their clients that can then like being like, since you know about our brand structure, spit out like uh, a, a headline or something and they're building something like that. And I was just like, yeah, that would be cool if I could do that. But I'm just like, I don't know, I'm not like a design, I'm not like an engineer brained person. You know what I mean? And so I, I kind of feel like I would need like three weeks to like sit and like think about that.

Blake Howard: But you know, you do think so atypical. I'm curious to know like what drives that, you know, like is there like this desire just to, to be an agency that does something drastically different or is it like. No, these things just kind of come natural and they happen to be different.

Mike Smith: Does that make sense? I think comes about because Car and I come from very non traditional backgrounds. It like feeding into this field like I was a screen printing majored in literature, you know, so it's like reading books. Yeah. Your first job was like typesetting books?

Cara Smith: Yeah. Publishing? Yeah. Ah.

Mike Smith: So when we come into this, like we didn't come into it from some like neto lens where we knew how any of this worked. And so to me like when we share things, I'm just like, I'm just sharing the stuff that I wish that I knew and like I wish that I, you know, I emailed so many friends, like I shout out to heads of state Here in Philadelphia. Like, they were a mainstay, like, in the city. And I just emailed Dusty and was like, hey, like, I'm thinking of starting my own thing. Do you have any tips? And he took the time. And like, so then I was just like, how can I repay that same thing for other people? And so to. To share everything. Like, I just know that when you got those documents, you got those style guides. Like, I knew how it would fundamentally shift brains and things like that. So I was like, why don't I just get ahead of that? And like, so many people are like, some of the older designers are just like, I can't believe you're sharing that. And I'm like, it. Honestly, it makes me just have to stay one step ahead.

Cara Smith: Yeah. Like, I also think Mike has just like a healthy disregard for the rules. Probably from your skateboarding past.

Mike Smith: Yeah.

Cara Smith: Of like, you know, things that would make me nervous. Like, I'm speaking such a rule follower. He will just, in a meeting be like, hey, man, can I show this whole file on the Internet? And the client will be like, what? Sure. You know, But I would never ask because I'm like, well, it wasn't the contract. We didn't do it originally. And he's just like, the worst that can happen is that they say no. And then we're like, ah, bummer. You know? So I think that healthy disregard for convention is really allows us to do stuff that a lot of people.

Blake Howard: Yep. And it's a good balance probably to have a little rule follower and a little, you know, rebellious side.

Mike Smith: Yeah. Like, Carl will raise a flag if it's like, detrimental the business.

Cara Smith: Like, ng. I don't know. Really don't. It's like, okay.

Mike Smith: Yeah. There's been a few things where she was just like, you just can't.

Cara Smith: Yeah.

Mike Smith: You just can't do that sometimes. And uh, but it's like at the same time, like, with my clients, like, I love to be as casual as possible. Like our one Weston client, the one that she was like, saying, can I asked him in the meeting, Can I share this? We were like texting each other pictures of the candles that we were lighting as we were, uh, going into the presentation.

Cara Smith: Yeah.

Mike Smith: Like, I was like, you make sure you get your Montana smelling candle. I'll get my pine smelling candle. And then setting the mood over zoom, you know. Yeah.

Cara Smith: Um, so we try to be disarming across the board.

Mike Smith: Yeah. Because it's like a lot of the times when. And this is like a lot of times when you're working on something in the discovery phase, you're just like, I don't know what kind of stuff symbol I'm gonna make here. But, like, when you disarm the person or make them feel like we're friends, like, a lot of the times people end up being like, I don't know, man. It's just like, I was just thinking about, like, a frog riding a bicycle, and you're just like, all right, that sounds good to me. And then, like, you go make it, and they're like, whoa, you made that? You know, like, it was your idea, you know, and so that's kind of. The secret is, like, if you kind of just be like, homies, like, chilling, like, on the couch or something, then it feels like they can give you ideas and you're not judging them for the ideas. Um, and you're actually secretly mining for good ideas.

Blake Howard: I also like what you said, too, about the transparency is a way just to kind of, like, give back when others poured into you and key relationships and key mentors helping you. The. For me, that was Alina Wheeler in Philadelphia, and. And we. We read her book and literally just emailed her. This was in 2008. Emailed her. We love your book. Could you come to Atlanta sometime and we'll, like, take you out to eat for breakfast? And she was like, sounds good. She came and met with us in Atlanta and just. We called her the Oracle, because she knew everything. It's like she just was this wise advisor. She ended up being literally on our advisory board for a while, and we were really, really tight. And. And because of her just investment in us as people and as an agency, we learned so much. Because, similarly, me and my business partner, we didn't start at a big agency. We didn't take, like, the playbook with us. We had to figure it all out, and we had to build it. Whatever just felt intuitive to us. Uh, which. Which I always joke and say, that's, like, that's a great way to do it, but it's also the long way to do it because you have to, like, yes, find all the wrong turns and be like, oh, that didn't work.

Narrator: Let's go this.

Blake Howard: This way now. Um, instead of take the playbook off the shelf at a previous agency is a lot faster to implement, but you maybe take some baggage with you of things you don't quite fully, fully understand. But I love how in the design community, specifically, like, man being open and sharing with others and passing on processes and frameworks and little diagrams and tools, it's so helpful, and it really, really does give you confidence as a designer. It, like, helps your work, and so I think that's really special.

Narrator: Yeah.

Mike Smith: Thank you. Yeah. I mean, like I said, it's just like, when I was starting the business, I think I maybe had two logos under my belt and I had no idea what I was doing. And, you know, a desperate email to, like, a person I, like, deeply admired. And then he, like, took the time, and I'm just like, he hooked me up with my first bookkeeper, my first accountant. He was like, this is who we use. This is what we do. Blah, uh, blah, blah, uh. And he totally didn't have to do that. So I'm just like, I got it. You got to give it back. If you've gotten it, if you've gotten help at any point, you've got to give it back.

Blake Howard: How do you balance doing work that you're really proud of and being a sustainable business? We have 27 folks, so the sustainability part becomes, you know, a little bit more challenging. But we also want to have, like, an amazing creative culture where people feel set up for success to do great work. All of that stuff kind of, like, is hard to balance. So as you all think about running Smith and diction, how do you do that? You know, as you move forward, how do you balance all those different factors?

Cara Smith: It is, uh, an ongoing challenge and a process to balance those things. Because I don't ever want our team. We love our team so much, and I never want them to get burnt out on just, like, Great. We're doing 45 new AI startup logos in a row. It's just, like, really hard. So I think that we use a lot of different strategies to try and keep things the way that we want the studio to be. Um, like, we try really hard. Like, that was honestly one of the things we started with Sprints was like, well, let just sneak in a fun brand in between the big ones so that everybody gets, like, re energized, and we get to do, like, a hotel hotel that couldn't really afford a whole big thing or whatever. They're buying your time instead of buying deliverables. So, like, you don't promise what you're gonna get at the end. You promise that you'll work on it for a week or two weeks or whatever, and then the time is over.

Mike Smith: Yeah. And so then you start to fill in these gaps with, like, people that, you know, they don't need a brand tomorrow. They need a brand eventually. And so we got to do some Projects that, like, the people are most excited about, like, Westbound was a Sprint. The George was a sprint. Minted was a sprint. Those are the ones where you can see our team, like, oozing the. I need to get this creativity out of me. I need to get this, like, I want to try, like, a monogram that, like, looped in on itself. Like, stuff where, like, a little bit of, like, the corporate structure, they're just like, we're not going to do that.

Cara Smith: Yeah.

Mike Smith: We're not going to ever even consider doing that. And so, like, basically, when I wrote the Sprints blog post, like, I laid out a bunch of rules, and I'm just like, the one that, like, pissed everyone off was just like, you can tell me what to like, but I'm going to make what I want. And that's the rule. And it's like, if you don't agree to it, that's totally fine. We will not do the sprint. But if you do agree to it, I promise you that I am. I am keeping your best interest in mind. But I also want to make the stuff that, like, I time, like, like that we want, like, really, really, like, interested in making.

Cara Smith: Yeah.

Blake Howard: That's such an amazing perspective for someone on the front end, a potential client, to say, yeah, okay, I'm going to trust you, Mike, you know, because. Well, I just think it's interesting, like, in any other craft or any other industry where you go, like, your. Your accountant. If you went to your accountant and you're like, hey, you know what? I, um, want you to just help me produce my bookkeeping just, like, as best as you can. They'd be like, cool. Got it. You wouldn't say, like, hey, I'm gonna give you feedback on your. Your bookkeeping methodology.

Mike Smith: Yeah.

Blake Howard: And I'm gonna give you rounds of revisions until you make your bookkeeping the way that I think is the best way to do it. No, they're the accountant. They're the expert. So you're like, yeah, just do your accounting.

Narrator: Do your thing.

Blake Howard: But that's a.

Narrator: That's a, uh.

Blake Howard: That's a hard thing. That's a hard ask in our industry.

Cara Smith: Yes, it is. And it's. It's really hard when the industry standard isn't there. So, like, they can go to a hundred other agencies.

Mike Smith: Yeah.

Cara Smith: And get people who are like, great, yeah, give me all the feedback. And then we're like, no feedback. So that is definitely doesn't make people feel great.

Mike Smith: And I think, like, the minted folks were probably one of the best at, uh, that oh my gosh, that was like incredible because like, they, they emailed us and they were like, hey, you know, we're probably not your typical client. We really love the work you did for Perplexity. You know, is there any chance we can work on this? And I was like, all right, listen, like, we can't get to it for three months and when we do, we're just going to call you and you need to be on. And then like three months went by. We called them, they were just like, yes, they cleared their whole schedule for the whole week so they could check in with us every single day. And like now he like tags me and like anybody, any post ever. Uh, he's like, you could. Mike Smith is the only one. Yeah, he's the only person that can do this. And I'm just like, he signed up, he trusted full, like wholeheartedly. Now they're like making like, uh, insane merch with that logo on it and they've blown it out in like all these crazy, different kind of beautiful ways. And that's what I love about the Sprint. And like, that's another stipulation of the Sprint is like, you fundamentally need to know how to use Illustrator, uh, for us to do it. And so because like, we hand off an Illustrator file or Figma file if it's for a digital client, but we hand off of uh, an Illustrator file that's just got a logo, a wordmark and some colors and that's it. Yeah, that's the whole thing.

Cara Smith: Yeah. It's like you can take it and you can build it out. So it's not all the long list of all the everything, which is. Yeah, it's different anyway. That's one way we keep the studio fun, fun. And so that it just like you break it up with creative things in between.

Mike Smith: Yeah. And it's like sometimes it's really hard to squeeze the sprints in because you're like, everyone's tired. But then it's always worth it. You get hyped though.

Cara Smith: It's always worth it.

Blake Howard: Yes. The variety of work types, long and short, I have also found to be really important for keeping people kind of engaged. If you, if you work on 10 real estate brands over the course of 12 or 18 months, you're just like, I'm smoked, man. I am smoked. So being able to switch it up industry wise, project type, client type, all of that variety is, is really good.

Cara Smith: Yeah, we learned. You know, I feel like I actually have Kevin Tuohy to thank for this.

Mike Smith: Oh, uh, Kevin Tui.

Narrator: Is the best.

Cara Smith: Kevin Tui is the best. He's like, you know, his own design practice, but he really taught us, like, yeah, I'm really choosy about what's next in an intentional, like, next I want something more consumer, or next I want something that's a little more like, he chooses his projects in that way. And that was like, oh, we can just say the only reason we. We don't want this another real estate project is because we've just done four in a row and we don't have any more real estate creative juice at the moment. You know, and so that was an. A really unlock for me realizing, like, it's not because it's a bad project necessarily, but you do have to keep yourself from getting stuck in the rut of, like, it's just. I don't know that anyone on the planet can make 12 real estate brands in a row and still feel the

Mike Smith: train, like, enthusiasm just exhaust. Yeah. And even with our AI clients, like, we had a run for a while where you're just like, what can I do with the search bar? You know what I mean? Like, I see. I see so many AI things. It's just like this stuff types on the screen and then it goes into a box and then the box explodes. And then it's like, yep, that's what you can do with it.

Cara Smith: That's it. So it gets, you know, a little tricky.

Mike Smith: I mean, people are still doing some really cool stuff. Like, we worked with Gamma recently and they did their own video, and I was super impressed. They made it really cool.

Cara Smith: Yeah, I think it was.

Mike Smith: I forget what the name of the agency who made it was, but I love. They were like, where everyone else is going. Like, airy gradient and, like, sleekness. They went like, pure chaos. And I was like, in a good way. So it's cool. That's really cool to see. And I love people who embrace, like, chaos a little bit and. And design. Like, we're all a little bit tired of the, you know, everything looks the same with the gradient in the back and all that kind of stuff.

Blake Howard: And if you. If you get really tired and really burnt out, you start a podcast sometimes. So, you know, that's another option is you're like, I'm gonna go opposite of visual medium and see how that feels.

Cara Smith: There was a point in time that I was like, that's it. Like, because my background is writing, I was like, I'm gonna write a book. Like, I can't do this anymore. Let me write and publish a book. That sounds like a relaxing, fun change of pace.

Mike Smith: We, we went to the Catskills and we wrote like the, the whole outline.

Cara Smith: I wrote two whole chapters. I'm like ready to go. But then we got busy, so, you know, maybe someday.

Mike Smith: Yeah.

Blake Howard: You'll finish it at some point. The uh, the uh, the sprints part also, I love, I love the idea of it and it seems like it would really rely on the right client. So like the idea that you have to be a friend of the studio I think is so smart. I worked on a, a nightmare project once. Um, it was, it was a real estate project. That's probably why it was in my brain. And we went to New York, we did a sprint three weeks in, in Manhattan. We did strategy naming, design, messaging, all that. We went to this big presentation. It was like the final look at like three options and we had like three unique voices based on three different positionings. I mean we like put it all into this one big deck. We went to the presentation, walk into this giant conference room. I mean it was like a 40 person conference table. You're like, this is insane. And they, the, the, the clients were sitting on the opposite end of the table where the, the screen was where we kind of felt like we needed to go. And this one guy was like, I went to kick it off and it started, you know, like, hey, thanks so much for your time. We're excited. We working hardless. He's. Let me just stop you there. We looked at the deck already. We're going to go with option number three. And then it was over. And it was just like, I'm glad that you chose something, but I'm also like, kind of, kind of frustrated that we didn't even get to share our thinking after these three weeks of these sprints. So all that to say if you're going to do something like that, you've got to have the right type of client that you can really groove with. Otherwise it, it can be really difficult.

Cara Smith: Yeah.

Mike Smith: Yeah. And that's like, that sounds awful. That's like definitely One of the other rules is like you can't be like VC funded.

Cara Smith: Yeah, yeah. We don't do it for like, you know, no shortcut. It's not intended to be. I just want my brand faster. It's meant to be. I'm a coffee shop, I'm a restaurant, I'm a hotel. I'm a, like a, uh, clothing brand. Like I'm a person who's starting something because I'm passionate about the thing that I'm Starting.

Blake Howard: Yeah.

Cara Smith: And so we're passionate about design. And then that also allows us to like, tap into like the, the whoever we're working with. They're like deep sense, sometimes irrational reasons for loving what they're doing. And that makes it so much easier for our team to feel like, yeah, we're hyped because you love running, like, it saved your life. Level of. So, like, even if we're not runners, we, we can feel your energy and your love for what you're doing and then we can pour that into the work.

Mike Smith: Yeah, because then, like, I mean, you know this, like, anytime that you're working on a brand and the person running the brand has that energy, enthusiasm, like, then your, your work is attached to their enthusiasm and then it just multiplies. So it's like instead of it just being like, I just wanted it fast and then now I'm gonna go raise more money. And then like, there's no love, there's no care, there's no passion. And your brand is kind of just like the thing that gets them in the room to go get money. Like, that's fine, but, like, that's not why I do it. But when you work on it and when you connect with that person, like when we did it for the west bank found, it was just like, it just felt like pure euphoria. The whole team were just like, wow, I can't believe we get to do this. It was so cool. And he, like, let us. And he was just like, yeah, make all the merch you want, do whatever you want. We'll make it all. And then like, he's like, yeah, I don't want business cards. I want to do matchbooks instead of business cards. And then like, I don't know, it was just so, so freeing and that, and that was why, you know, why we still reserve one or two of those a year now. Because it's just like when you tap into it, it like, I'll be riding a high for a long term.

Cara Smith: Weeks.

Mike Smith: Yeah.

Blake Howard: Okay, that's a wrap on today's special

Narrator: Inside the Studio bonus episode.

Blake Howard: Big shout out to Mike and Kara Smith for their time.

Narrator: And hey, we have yet another bonus episode coming out in just a few weeks where we go inside the studio with Motto and their co founder, Sonny, um, Bonnell. If you like this series and have an agency or an in house studio you want to learn about, send me a DM on Instagram. Just a changeofbrand or drop me a Note on a ChangeOfBrand.com. today's episode was edited and scored by Adam Audio, produced by Brianna Belcher. Sarah Pepper designed this episode's artwork, and

Blake Howard: I'm your host, Blake Howard, signing off.