Questions on Publishing Your Business Book with Carrie Birmingham

Speaker A: The Zest for Business podcast.

Speaker B: Hello and welcome to this show. This is Zest for Business, a show where we answer questions about how you can use better strategies, automation and systems to help your small business make the most out of the limited resources that it has so that you can achieve your potential. I'm Gareth Everson and on today's episode I'm joined by Carrie Birmingham, who I was introduced to through an associate at uh, the recent Atomicon conference. Carrie is writing a book at the moment and had questions as a first time author, um, about my experiences releasing my book. So Carrie, I'm really excited about today's conversation partly because of the quality of questions that you asked me, but also just from our pre discussion there about where you're at in your journey with it. So for the benefit of the listener, why don't you give a bit of an introduction to what you do and who you help and how you help them and then we'll get into the discussion about book publishing.

Speaker A: So. Hello Gareth, My name's Carrie Birmingham. I run a really niche practice called Carrie Birmingham Consult. You can see I was limited on creativity when I came up with the name. Um, and we um, specialize in complex and messy problems. So helping clients with the sort of darker side, the shadow side of things that happen at work so that they don't have to deal with them on their own and um, you know, they can tap into some expertise, um, about the problems that creates and you know it draws on my background as a HR director, as a coach, as a facilitator and um, I have some expertise from my masters in culture as well. So ability to sort of harness psychology, lived, you know, reality and um, a good sense of humor I think.

Speaker B: Awesome. And all of those help in the uh, in the space that you work in. Um, and about your book, you were telling me about um, how you had started writing that book and you were moving along the process of writing it and now starting to think about um, the marketing plan for it. Just give the listener a bit of a context to what problem the book will solve and who it will appeal to.

Speaker A: There's a load of stats, Gareth, around the real difficult challenge. And you know, many of the people I've helped have had this difficult challenge of co founder conflict. So um, I started developing a coaching service to help co founders about four years ago and you know, consistently been supporting them as they hit the rocks, you know, when they start having to have conversations they haven't had before. Um, and you know, I'd had an ambition to write a book for a while, a secret ambition. Um, never could quite nail down, I suppose, what to write it about. But as I felt the sort of, you know, the risk of sounding, you know, a bit sort of grand, it felt like the world was calling me to step into that space because there isn't many people that specialize in it. Um, I've been building my sort of methodology of how to help people. And I was really surprised to see that, you know, 70% of businesses fail because of co founder conflict. And when I did some wonderful AI research, um, I discovered there isn't a book that's really narrowly focused on this actual problem. You can find some wonderful books about conflict, you can sign some wonderful books about, you know, starting a business, but when you get into the real gnarly stuff of the fact that maybe the bloke who's your best mate, you know, who came to your wedding and knows your children, uh, you look across the desk and you want to punch him in the face. What do you do then? And I think that, you know, that's what I'm really specializing in.

Speaker B: Love it. I absolutely love it. I don't know necessarily whether my co founder or I wanted to punch one another in the face when we had a software business together. Uh, maybe she did to me, actually. I've never actually asked her, but perhaps the fact that I haven't asked would tell a story in itself. Um, but, But I think that's amazing. People say there's no new information in the world, and yet you've discovered that that combination of co founders dealing with conflict just isn't addressed anywhere. Um, even on the massive marketplace that is Amazon. That's just staggering and amazing at the same time.

Speaker A: And it, I mean, as we just discussed, I mean, I was the HR director for the sun newspaper when we had 34 arrested employees. And my work was inspired by the fact that I, uh, looked into the marketplace and looked for someone that could help, but who helps when it's dark. And I think what I discovered, Gareth, this is, you know, I think it links back to your question. It's often the hard stuff people shy away from. You know, they don't want to be talking about that. They want to talk about the shiny stuff, the fun stuff that, you know, we're starting something new stuff, um, and, you know, so there's an opportunity to specialize in. What do you do when you don't know what to do? Um, when you're really stuck, when you feel really alone, and that's when Me and my team show up, you know, we're prepared to sort of stand next to you so you're, uh, not on your own at that really difficult point when you're feeling like you're completely lost. People deserve support at that point, and that's what we're really there for.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I guess if there isn't that conversation going on online about this as a topic and with the best will in the world, are they going to find you through whatever search terms would bring up your website? Having a book out there where you're speaking about it, and also then a platform to be able to use to speak on podcasts, to speak on YouTube or on socials about it just raises awareness that much further, doesn't it?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a few reasons for writing the book. Um, one of them, being really honest, is proving to myself that I can. So, I mean, it's definitely part of the dynamic. But I want to help more people, so I run a really small practice, so there's only sort of six of us, so we can't help everybody. Not everyone can afford it, Gareth. You know, there's lots of people trying to do new things with their friends and their community that wouldn't be able to afford our services. So we wanted to help more people. Um, but also, you know, I know that writing helps me think. So as much as I don't find it an easy practice, you know, I don't find. I'm not one of those people that goes, woohoo, you know, I have three hours to write. I have to literally, I'm an extrovert. I have to, you know, really concentrate on creating an environment where writing is possible. But I know that from doing it, my thinking, the quality of my thinking about this subject will improve. And that will mean that I, you know, I have some collateral, I suppose, that I can take out into the world so that when I'm talking about things, I know that what I'm expressing isn't the first thought I've had. It's this. The, you know, is the. The thought I've really thought about and thought about. Is that true? Um, so I, you know, I want the discipline, I suppose, as well, of getting really clear about something.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And, uh, the reason that I wanted to do this podcast interview with you, I'm asked a lot of questions. Having put my book out into the world in February this year, I'm asked a lot of questions about what was my motivation to do it, how did I do it, all of that Kind of thing. But the questions that you asked me via, uh, uh, our. Our friend Emma, uh, just really resonated with me, and it made me think that there must be hundreds, if not thousands of people who are out there who feel like they've got that book inside them and feel, having heard the answers to your questions there, uh, especially with that gap in that, like, perfect storm of those different scenarios not being addressed elsewhere. How do we get our message out to more people that we can help? And what you told there in terms of why you're writing your book, as I said to you before, feels like me 18 months ago in so many different ways. Um, and I'll just pick up on what you said there in terms of who do we write the book for? I think that we write our book and, and this. There's a lot of what I'm about to say here that comes from having written my book and got it out to the world. I probably wouldn't have thought this beforehand, but in hindsight, I think we write our book for three audiences, and the first one and most important one is for ourselves. And you've just said that the second audience, uh, is for people who already know us, who probably, as you've said there either can't afford to work with us all the time, or don't fully understand what we're about or want to support us more, have worked with us perhaps in the past and just need that little bit of extra insight that with the best will in the world, when we're coaching or consulting, we don't have the time to go through everything that we know that we would put into a book. So that's the second audience. And then the third audience is for those people who don't yet know us and who have the problems that we can solve. But because they don't know us, how do they know where to find us? How do they know that when they have perhaps found us through a blog post or an interview like this, that we're the trustworthy solution to those challenges that they face? So I, I think there are three audiences for it, and we shouldn't underestimate that. First one, getting clarity with our own message in a single place. And a book really forces us, uh, to be able to do that, doesn't it?

Speaker A: It does, absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, and. And also express it in our own words. I think the other thing is I can easily start reading other people's content and think, oh, that's really good, you know, but writing a book is forcing me to go, well, what do I think about that? Uh, like, you know, what's my own perspective? And you know, I've been building up to, to this Gareth for quite some time. I mean, I've been blogging reasonably consistently, probably not as consistency as I should, for like five years as a way of sort of readying myself, I suppose, to put my thoughts in the world and accept the, you know, imposter syndrome that naturally comes as a result of that. Um, and, you know, I used to work with journalists. I'm, you know, I have the fear of the red pen that looms large, um, and whether, you know, what they're going to say about it, you know, but, you know, I think blogging has helped me get ready to be brave enough to do, to write for that first audience. You know, the biggest block probably to do this is me.

Speaker B: That is so insightful. So blogging for you was your outlet for, I guess, version 1 or 0.1. For me it was starting this podcast 18 months ago and starting to voice, find a voice around some of the topics that I've helped clients with over the last 15 years. And, and actually some of the words that I used verbally on the podcast I would have never, ever said in a written down format. And yet they've ended up working exceptionally well in the book. So I do think, well, I think that having some other medium that we've explored with, first of all, is an important stepping stone when you're thinking about writing a book for the first time instead of just staring at a blank page. Do you think that's helped you in terms of where you've got to, uh, with your book writing?

Speaker A: I think it's really, um, exposing, you know, to put your thoughts out into the world, not being able to control or influence who reads it and what they say about it. So I think we all need to find a way to get, you know, some people are born with that and they might have it from their professional career. I didn't come to running my own business with that already, so I've had to build it. Um, and you know, I remember when I started blogging, I said, this will help me get ready, I suppose. And you know, I've written half the book partly I've been able to do that in sort of three months because I already had a bunch of stuff written where I was like, okay, I can pull that in, I can pull that in, I can pull that in. I've already thought about those subjects. So it doesn't, suddenly, it doesn't Feel like quite such an undertaking. Um, although when you start researching the publishing business, the process of writing a book, it's a little bit overwhelming. But that's probably a different subject

Speaker B: that. I mean, we can. We can come on to that topic. Um, the. The overwhelm from it and actually having a structure made it feel less overwhelming for me. And perhaps we can. Perhaps we can touch on that. I just want to ask you a quick question before we come into yours. And this is. This is more a reflection or a mirror of where I came from, partially with mine. As a child growing up and through your 20s, were you a creative type?

Speaker A: God, I've got all sorts of history going on with that question, Gareth. The risk of having done a lot of therapy. Yeah. So, you know, the child that would dance and, uh, was asked to leave. Dance, you know, ballet, because they weren't very good at it. You know, the girl that drew a picture and mum. My mum said, that doesn't look like a sunflower. And the teacher said, it does if it does, to carry. So I. I don't think I'm a natural creative. I think I am someone that's interested in fixing problems, and I'm creative about how I do that. I mean, I've, uh, my, you know, I'm 52 years old. I've done a lot of personal development work in all sorts of weird and wonderful places. You know, whether that's meditation, somatics, constellation, gestalt, therapy. You know, I. If you look at the things I've engaged in, they allow me to be able to hold a lot of people's trauma and damage. So I'm creative in how I deploy, I suppose, some of the things I've learned. But I wouldn't consider myself to be a natural creative. And for me, that is, you know, dance, singing, uh, drawing, those are not natural places for me, which is a

Speaker B: very interesting way of answering it, because they weren't for me, um, in terms of how you've defined creativity. But what I've come to learn throughout my career is that creativity comes out in different ways. And we're both creative problem solvers. We think through problems and different ways to address that. For me, writing the book allowed me to express that problem solving, creativity in one place. Um, I think that was. So when I was asking you from a mirror perspective of whether my reflections on it reflect your motivations for writing your book, does that resonate with you?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think, you know, I do think that I bring together things that are typically not brought together, you know, the way I'm going to write this book from a psychological perspective will not match somebody who's been, you know, a co founder. Ah, um, who's used to looking at product market fit. They're just two different ways of looking at the world. Uh, you know, and, you know, in my work with co founders, you know, they gnash their teeth at me when I offer them feedback or ask them to look at themselves. You know, that's not something they're used to doing, but it is necessary. So I suppose, yeah, I'm creative in how I convince people to do that.

Speaker B: I think really, uh, really similar perspectives. Let's come on to your questions because she had some good ones. Let's.

Speaker A: I did.

Speaker B: Let's explore those.

Speaker A: Well, the first question I had is probably slightly. Slightly, um, yeah, I think it's because it's such an investment, Gareth. I mean, when you start looking into what does it take to write a book and you realize what a large undertaking it is, um, a bit of me is like, is it worth it? Um, you know, what's the. For the sake of what am I doing there? So my first question is, what hopes did you have? And I described it as for investing blood, sweat and tears into birthing a book. Um, you know, I think if I'm

Speaker B: honest, I didn't invest blood, sweat, maybe a few tears. I didn't invest a whole amount of blood and sweat into it. It was hard work for three months. Um, but I went about writing my book in perhaps a slightly different way to sort of the modern, the, the way that modern book coaches would perhaps have you write a book. I hear a lot online about devoting, say, an hour or your first couple of hours of the day to writing a thousand words for argument's sake, and that be the first thing that you do. I first was, uh, inspired or to, or, uh, encouraged to write a book back in 2016. One of my mentors, who's still a mentor now, Chuck, called Peter Thompson, who is a really prolific product creator, digital product creator. Uh, and part of that being the publication of books. He'd encouraged me back in 2016 to form a methodology and get it out into the world by way of a book that then becomes your sort of tipping point into being able to do other things. And for one reason or another, part of the reason was forming a software company and then joining up with a co founder and sort of that. That's where that story went. I just got distracted. It's got distracted along the way. It didn't become A priority. But it was something that was always burning at the back of my mind that I really wanted to do and get my message out into the world. Um, when I closed that software business, um, and um, started up back in coaching and consulting again, I set myself a target of getting to a point where recurring revenues that were coming into the business through businesses that I was helping, getting to a point where they had reached a certain level that allowed me to not work with private clients anymore. And once I hit that milestone in November last year, so November 2024, I hit a financial milestone where I didn't need to for the business take on private clients. And the first thing that I wanted to do as a sort of reward project, if you like, was finally write my book. And the concept of Lemonade Plan had been rolling around in my head and in notepads for about two or three years before that. So actually that three months actually felt more of a holiday than the blood, sweat and tears phrase that you used. There were the occasional tears that came, came along the way of, of wondering, am I good enough to do this? Will any, will this resonate with anybody? I had an ambition that I'd get it in the hands of 2,000 different business owners this year. Who, who was I to think that Those even, even 200 business owners would value it? Um, but that was, that was, those were the only tears.

Speaker A: Well, you manage with me, so

Speaker B: thank you. Thank you. And, and there were some other routes to, uh, to getting it in the hands of different people as well. I've used advertising, I've used sponsorship. Um, it was important to me that if I was spending that time outside of helping clients privately, that that time would have some sort of benefit to me and to others. So what was important to me beyond the kind of effort to, to do it over those three months, was that there'd be a return for me, um, a valuable return for me from writing the book. And that involved getting it in the hands of as many people as I could do in that first year. So it's been more blood, sweat and tears since then than it was in the, in the creation of it, I would say.

Speaker A: Well, and that sort of leads on to the next question. You know, if you do some research about the book publishing industry, you know, business books, you get a fiverr, uh, in your hand as the author per copy, is what I've discovered. So that led to me having a second question, which is beyond the obvious, book sales, because that isn't the reason for doing it. What personal or business Benefits have you seen from making that in your case, three month investment?

Speaker B: Well, from a practical sense even, even the five quid doesn't come into my hands because by using Amazon ads it's basically cost neutral, uh, to, to be able to advertise it and sell it. Especially in business book categories. You can, you can make a bit more of a return if you're a fiction book author, especially if you're a multi book author in the, in a fiction category. But the business book category is very, very heavily advertised in whether it's on Amazon, Facebook or uh, YouTube. So actually financially the book itself hasn't really had any return whatsoever. That being said, I would say the biggest business benefit has been actually a PR benefit. Um, and people that have had my book either through groups that I've been in and have sponsored the distribution of it, or conferences like Atomicon where Emma was at and she got a copy of my book there. What it has done more than anything is put me on a, I don't like the word pedestal, but given me an authority position within those different groups of oh, Gareth's an author, he knows about systems, he's written this 250 page book on the topic. Therefore there's almost that connection of that trust connection, if, if that makes sense. That's been the biggest benefit. And I ne, I've never been one for PR or making an effort around PR in the past, but that's probably been the best thing. I now go into business group, online business groups and I'll check my notification and I've been tagged on different posts and I'm like, well I haven't seen that. And somebody's called me out in those little social groups saying oh, you should speak to Gareth. And that never ever happened in the past. I'd be just one voice that would be answering a call for help in a particular area and it generally speaking, if I'm honest, got ignored most of the time. Whereas if other people are endorsing you for a skill that they perceive you have or they recognize you have because they've read your book, that's been by far and away the biggest benefit so far. There have been sales off the back of it and I can trace back people who've bought services and software from me through them having read the book. Um, but it's, you definitely don't write a book for making money from the book. You write a business book. From a perspective of, from a business perspective, um, where could that lead to in terms of revenues, uh, for the business or in terms of making my marketing easier in specific channels, uh, later down the line.

Speaker A: Which leads me to my next question. It's almost like we designed this.

Speaker B: Gary, isn't that convenient?

Speaker A: What steps have you taken to allow you to maximize those business benefits? So if that's pedestal as you use it, I appreciate that word isn't comfortable. What are the things.

Speaker B: Let's not use that. I don't think it is a pedestal. I think it's an authority position.

Speaker A: Authority. Yeah. So what, how have you maximize that authority, uh, position.

Speaker B: This was a tough one. And speaking to you beforehand and talking about that awkwardness of marketing your book. If I would have had my time again when I was writing it, I'd have shared a lot more of the stories and the context of what was going into the book. In the build up to it, I treated the marketing of the book as an exercise that probably lasted from two weeks before publication to, well, it's still ongoing now, but probably there was a, there was a wave of marketing and promotional activity for maybe a month or six weeks afterwards. There have been other, other initiatives since then. Um, but what steps have I taken to maximize those benefits? I could answer it the way that I did it and the way that I would do it next time. I think the thing that really worked well in a small setting before I, before I launched the book and it was some advice that I had from a mentor of mine, James Ashford, uh, actually a client of mine from the past that turned then, then has ultimately turned into a mentor. He has authored three Amazon bestsellers. And his advice that he gave me was instead of engaging purely an editor or a proofreader, bring together a group of friendlies, uh, people that you've maybe worked with in your, in your case, it might be people that you've interviewed, it might be associates who are in your business, it might be influencers in your space. Bring together a group of people and get them to co review or co proofread your Google Doc, uh, of your manuscript. So put it all into a format where they can access it online and make comments against that. Uh, what parts of the manuscript resonate with them? What parts are there gaps in? And I did that with a smallish group of people having thought from James's advice, oh, this is a good idea, I'll put the message out to a handful of people and get them involved. I invited, I think, 12 people to be proofreaders of the book, of whom about 8 said they would do so, and about 5 of those did so really actively If I had my time again, I'd try and quadruple that. So all of those numbers, what I'd try and ultimately get is 20 people that were really active and hands on, um, in terms of reviewing it. Because that more than anything else, book writing is such a solo project and you are left with your own thoughts and your own, um, uh, in. In your own environment and all of those things that go on in your head. And it's not until you start to put it out to the world of people who know you, to be fair, and then start to get their feedback. Some of it great, some of it good, some of it, we really need to do some more work on things. That's when I could feel that there was a momentum building and when people really resonated with certain paragraphs or lines or chapters in the book that made me really think, actually there's something in this or where they fed back. There's something missing here. And there was a bit of a disconnect between the two of the chapters and I had to put another chapter in that really helped as well. So that's probably the thing that I would do more of next time in terms of thinking about the promotion. Because they then also became, once the book was launched, they became my first sort of loudspeaker out to the world of, hey, Gareth's got his book out and it's there to, uh, read and to share. And they were my first reviewers on Amazon as well. So it helped create that momentum.

Speaker A: Well, and that's really helpful, Gareth, because I think I'd naively been thinking, and I'll deal with marketing down the track. Like, you know, that's the thing to worry about once I have a manuscript and once I have a publisher, because I, you know, I have either of those things at the moment. And I think it was Emma saying to me, it's not that simple. This is not a kind of do this, then do this, do this project. It's a kind of. It's got these multiple layers that overlap. I've had two bits of advice, Gareth. Don't tell anybody what you're doing because they'll steal your idea. And, um, tell everybody what you're doing so that they can become your advocates and your cheerleaders. I mean, what. Where do you fall on that sort of continuum?

Speaker B: Really lean a lot closer towards the latter of that. If you tell nobody, then you have, uh, you have nobody to give you feedback on whether you've hit the right direction or not. So you either land it or it doesn't land. That's one of the big challenges of not. Of not sharing your idea with different people. I think the fact that you've got blog posts in the past where you'll be able to see which ones have resonated, which ones have engaged with people, that will give you a bit of a clear steer on some of the topics that are of interest to, uh, your potential audience. You'll also, because you're coming from a coaching background in writing your book, you'll also know some of the topics that are particularly sensitive or hot or things that people are particularly interested in when they engage you to act as a coach for them. So you'll already have a good sense of the topics that will resonate, but it's not until you engage others. And for me, it was that early proofreader group. Once I got a manuscript, uh, to a point where I was happy with it and it didn't have massive errors in it, that was my best piece of feedback. And like I say, I would have shared that with at least four times more people had I had my time. Again, I'd definitely index on that as one of the really valuable activities to do. The other thing, just. If I may, um, the other thing that I did that I haven't heard other authors do all that much is in my paid Claude AI account. I created a project in there, uh, where once I'd completed a chapter, I uploaded that to the project knowledge. So it's private to me. It was in my own account. It wasn't on a public version of Claude, but I got Claude to play the role of an experienced book proofreader and editor who's experienced in the book, the business book genre that I was, that I was working in.

Speaker A: I don't know what Claude is. I don't know what Claude is. Gareth. Sorry. So I'm going to admit m my. Confess my ignorance now.

Speaker B: So you mentioned that you'd use ChatGPT before. Claude is a very similar platform, a large language model, uh, AI platform to ChatGPT, uh, really similar, but a little bit more creative in terms of the language that it uses, uh, or the language that it writes. Not that I had Claude write any of the book, but it, it had that context for what resonated when it read my book. And it was able to play that role for me of an experienced book editor, slash proofreader. And that was awesome because right there at hand for me was somebody who was effectively somebody. It was an AI, but somebody playing that role of an editor. That was literally in the room with me, and that was really valuable. Uh, I was able to ask it, does this, does this paragraph resonate with you? I, or I want to achieve this objective with this chapter? Am I hitting those goals? And it was just absolutely brilliant at helping me tidy up my messaging in the book. And also, you've obviously read Lemonade Planet. There's four characters in there whose stories all intertwine with the best will in the world. Me putting post it notes on my whiteboard about how those stories interlinked and the things that they told one another only went so far. The AI that I was using was able to bring all of that together to make sure that there weren't any gaps in the stories or any loose ends that, uh, weren't being tied up. So, Claude, AI plus my proofreader group were probably the best way of, um, making sure that I got the most benefit out of the book when it came to launch.

Speaker A: Well, you're making me feel very analog, Gareth. So I went to my bestest friend's house in France with a load of flip chart paper and post it notes and mapped the whole book out. And I have hired a book coach, somebody who's reading what I'm writing and offering me feedback. So, um, yeah, you're making me think about maybe how I can use digital products more successfully than I'm using at the moment.

Speaker B: So what you've done there, uh, is sort of leading edge in terms of diligence for making sure that your story is coherent and the structure of your book is coherent. And AI with the best will in the world won't replace that personal touch in terms of doing that. But what AI does do. So it's probably second or third best in terms of that personal element. It's nowhere near as good as a human, but. But what it is is available when you're writing your book at 11:30 at night and you can't quite go to sleep until you've finished that particular paragraph or that particular chapter, and it's just there, and it'll give you immediate feedback literally within seconds of it reading it. Um, so for that reason, I'd encourage you to think about, um, building a separate project either on ChatGPT or. My preferred AI was Claude for this because I like its creative style of writing and, um, plug in different chapters or paragraphs into there.

Speaker A: So my last question you might have already answered. What advice would you give an inspiring author who's halfway through writing a manuscript on, um. And, you know, and at that point Where I'm like, oh God, I might actually do this, um, about how to actually navigate it, I suppose, really. And maybe you've told me those already, but I will ask that question.

Speaker B: No, I'll definitely give you some separate tips. So my version of Lemonade Plan that I put out into the world in February was version three of my book. I'd come to write that twice before and dropped it. It felt unnatural, um, to me. I didn't particularly enjoy reading it, so I told myself that others wouldn't enjoy it either. Version one was telling my story and I kind of looked at it and I thought, no, who wants to read my story? That's, that's not of interest to anybody. And that was kind of a self reflective thing, sort of uh, almost like an imposter syndrome type thing. So that version got uh, completely binned after about six chapters. The second version that I wrote got about as far as you've got with your manuscript. And that was in more of a kind of a textbooky format, so you'll appreciate. Lemonade Plan is a story, but it's telling the, is telling the story of how you, how you put in place your eight core processes, uh, how you systemize those in your business. Um, not the most exciting topic in the world if we look at it in pure black and white terms, but the fact that it's told through the lens of four business owners, semi fictitious business owners, just brought it to life a little bit more. And it was, it wasn't until I got that version three that I really connected with it. And as a reader of my own writing, I thought this could actually fly because I enjoy reading this as well. Um, and so my advice for you is, now that you're halfway through, don't give up. Or if you do give up and change things, make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. That's my main piece of advice there. Second big piece of advice is to heed my warning of the mistake that I made of not sharing what I had earlier in the process of writing the book. Uh, once you're confident about the core message of different chapters, start seeding that into social posts online. Not necessarily giving away chapter and verse of literally what's in your book, but start throwing into the mix in your social channels, uh, topics around that and start throwing rocks into the water basically and seeing what ripples, uh, seeing what feedback you get, see what resonates, see what doesn't resonate. Um, and that will give you a good steer, uh, as to what you Might tweak and change. Once I'd fully written my, uh, first version of the manuscript, before I put it out to my proofreader group, um, I would say I was about, I thought I was about two thirds of the way through the process, but I was probably closer maybe to halfway through the process, if that gives you a good guidance.

Speaker A: Well, yeah, because, you know, when you look into doing this, you realize there's a whole world you don't understand that you have to learn about. Hence, I chose to invest in a really wonderful book coach. So I'm using a lady called Liz hall, who I'm going to give a big shout out to, um, you know, who's, who's very kindly reading what I'm writing and giving me really honest feedback and in a way that feels really resourcing. Um, yeah. Which will make it much more joyful, hopefully, given I wouldn't consider myself. Yes. A natural writer. Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker B: Yeah, you're welcome. And in terms of creating the artwork for the COVID what's your process there?

Speaker A: Uh, Gareth? I'd, uh, not even thought about that. So now that's just frying my mind. Another thing I've got to think about, basically. No idea.

Speaker B: One of the best pieces of advice I got when I was writing my book was to write the back cover, um, very, very early in the process. And the back cover that you can read there on your copy of Lemonade Plan is something that existed very, very early on in my process. It's basically your sales letter to a potential reader, a prospective reader. There is a school of thought that on Amazon nobody ever looks at the back cover. But actually for me it was. And even if they don't. But for me it was basically my sales letter to the world. If I could connect with the words that went in there and the words that I was planning to put under my book description on Amazon, then I knew that I had something that I could stand behind and happily publish. Um, so that's. I don't know whether Liz would agree, uh, with that or not. I'd love to hear if you want to follow up after this. The second part is I've had two different covers of my book. The first one was a green cover and I loved it, but I'd had some feedback that it sort of blended into the background. And so in anticipation of the book launch for Atomicon, where I needed to print 1500 copies of the book, I worked with designers on a service called 99designs, which is a contest based, uh, website where I had over 100 design submissions for the new front cover of the book. And that really lit a fire with me because as professional designers were starting to engage with the topic and they, um, they weren't reading the book, but the topic of the book, you give them a precis of. Of what the book's about. I got some really, really good energy from those designs that were coming back and, and choosing between those. And that was. I think it was the best part of a gram that I spent on that. A thousand pounds. That was probably the best thousand pounds that I spent in the process of launching my book.

Speaker A: That's good advice. Well, and we've mentioned it already, you know, as a raging extrovert, uh, you know, writing at home on your own isn'. Easy. So I love that idea of having other people's energy getting, you know, involved in it.

Speaker B: I've not thought about it until, uh, we. We've talked about it on this, on this call that other people's interactions were the part of the whole process that gave me the most energy to see it over the line and to see it be more successful once I had published it. So I think there's something in that, that authoring a book feels like a very private activity, but actually it's not. It's really a team game. And that team involves people who are in your corner, who want to lift you and want to support you and want to do whatever they can to help.

Speaker A: Well, and I was asked that question last week by a very wise girlfriend of mine, which is. I was moaning about a bit of the process I was doing, and she said, what's the bit you're enjoying? And I'm really enjoying my research interviews with co founders who are miserable. And, you know, uh, and the chap last week, said, I spoke to said, I've been looking for this book where, you know, how quickly can you finish it because it's really needed by the world. And that, you know, for somebody who's sort of, you know, sort of typing away for furiously, that's a real reminder of why it's important, I suppose. And, you know, somebody that needs it and wanted it really, and you're hearing his story. I mean, I've heard tales of woe, Gareth, of cancer, death, you know, family, you know, family broken up because people haven't been able to find a way. And, you know, I really don't believe it has to come to that. So, yeah, that. That's why I'm writing it, so that people don't have to live with that

Speaker B: it's a brilliant reason for writing the book. It really is. Um, and I would have definitely read it had it been available. What would it be now? Six years ago? Um, no, maybe seven years ago now. I, um, would have definitely read that book. Um, as I went, we didn't have massive conflict. It just didn't work out. Um, but I would have definitely picked up that book to avoid any either of us feeling, um, let down by the whole process of being co founders in a business that we'd started together. It's been so insightful, not just for me to voice some of this for the first time, but also to hear your story about you writing your book. And my hunch when Emma, uh, contacted me is probably true that if you and I shared such similar feelings when we were writing our book, as I said to you, your story feels like me 18 months ago. So if there's somebody who's watching or listening to this now, is this part of your story? Is this part of your journey? Is this something that you've had on your wish list to do yourself, to author your book? And if so, I, uh, very much hope that Carrie's story and my story on this episode have been useful to you. Carrie, I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me today for your first interview. Ah, as a podcaster of the future, um, this has been great, a really fun experience, and what I would say as we wrap up, um, do check out the show description or show notes to connect with either of us. I'll include Carrie's contact details in there. Um, Carrie, build your network in the run up to the book, uh, with people who've seen or heard this, um, because they'll be your supporters and they'll be in your corner wishing you well through this. Um, and remember, what we learn today only has meaning in our businesses if we've got a plan to take action on it tomorrow. So for this episode of Zest for Business, thanks for listening, thanks for watching, and we'll see you next time.

Speaker A: The Zest for Business podcast.