Buying the Family Business and the Flywheel Every Family Has

Speaker A: Dad could have just given it to me. I don't think I would have been in the same position. It was bigger payments than I was used to. It cost more than my house. I'm kind of proud of that piece. That, you know, isn't a gift. I worked for it. Every family has one. If they have a business, they have a flywheel. Somebody, the family member or the family is running that business. Right. And then the business itself spins off based on the productivity and the knowledge the family had to be able to run.

Speaker B: Hey there and welcome to your next gen Friend, a successor guide to business transition, a podcast for figuring out what's next in or beyond your family business. I'm Andrea Carpenter, transition strategist and second gen. Around here, we talk about the real stuff. Family dynamics, identity, leadership, wealth, and how to define success on your own terms. Here's to finding your own way forward. I'm so glad you're here. Hey, everyone. Super excited to be here with Michael today on your next gen Friend. Also a, uh, next gen, uh, but has been in the business a little bit longer. So excited to have him bring in some of what he's learning and also thinking about his next generation and what that looks like because there is this cycle, right. Of, um, people who come in and you're starting to think about what it means to become a steward. So, Michael, can you give us just a quick introduction of yourself, your business, and we'll go from there.

Speaker A: Sure. Hi. Welcome and thank you, Michael. Um, Columbus Family Business Flywheel. Um, I am originally a second generation wealth advisor. Um, and dad, you know, started back. Dad went through a lot more than I did. Um, he started in the insurance business and then the insurance and banking industries and investments came. So he became a wealth advisor. By the time he was finishing his career before, you know, the last five, ten years. Um, but there was times when, you know, he had one mutual fund. So you couldn't really call yourself an advisor if you were selling one mutual fund and an insurance company stuff. Um, but the really cool part about dad is, um, one, I couldn't have done what he did. I don't think I would have survived the way that he did it. Um, he was, uh, went to the seminary. His mother put four boys through the seminary, hoping to get at least one out. She did. She got one priest out of the four boys. Um, and my father went to work for the diocese of our, you know, city. And, um, you know, it was always. Service was always something that was near and dear to him. Um, and so when he married my mother. My biological father passed and, uh, married my mom, who had two boys. Um, he's like, working for the diocese probably isn't going to cut it for me. Um, and so he went to Connecticut General Life Insurance Company in the 70s. And one of the first things they talked about was one of the, um, one of the general agents at the time had created this philosophy called serve first, last and always. And dad heard the word serve, and that was it. And then. And the concept was, you know, these families that were helping, they've got a lot on their plate and it's messy and somebody's got to go in there and do the hard work that's necessary to uncomplicate all these things. And so they used. It was a really brilliant idea. They would use education around, uh, buy sell agreements and um, estate planning documents and trusts to help them reduce taxes, um, and fund their buy sell agreements and life insurance was. Is a great tool used properly to do those things. And so that's. You know, dad started working with, um, family businesses, you know, in the 70s. Today, uh, we went through a transition, obviously 2018. Um, dad took all the family businesses and I bought all of them. And anybody that was executives or retirees, um, his business partner purchased and wrote, uh, you know, wrote him a check for 20% down and paid the rest over four years. Um, which, you know, I think that's. Dad could have just given it to me. I don't think I would have been in the same position. Um, it was a, you know, the. It was a. It was bigger than. Bigger payments than I was used to. Yeah, it cost more than my house. Um, and. And so it was significant. And it really made. I don't know. I'm kind of proud of that piece that, you know, it was. It wasn't a gift. I worked for it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, today we've got some really special things. Families that we've served for 40 years between the two of us. 30 years between the two of us. Dad, we had one family. One, two. They didn't make it to the third transition because they sold, but we helped. So dad helped them with transition. One from the great grandfather to the three boys. And the. I guess it was the second trans. The next transition, um, going to G3, never happened, um, because they decided to sell the family business. I helped them with that process. Um, not that they listened to everything that I talked to them about. Um, but the, um, reason why it's important is the great grandson of that business now works in my business with Me as one of my, one of my associates. Yeah. Um, and through the years of, you know, working with family businesses, we just saw some patterns and some things happening. And in the last three to four years we really started to name them and put them together. And um, you know, that's where, where we are today, where we've developed what I, you know, the flywheel, we call it. Um, yeah. What we notice is every bit, every family has one. If they have a business, they have a flywheel.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, somebody, somebody, the family member or the family is running that business. Right. And then the business itself, um, spins off based on the productivity and the knowledge and whatnot that the family had to be able to run it. And the business then spits off wealth which then comes back to the family and you know, are they investing in the family or not? And so I just tell people we all have a flywheel. It's just a question of whether it's spinning smoothly or grinding and causing some conflict.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. And I, I think we should dive into that in a little bit before we move on to kind of where you've taken the business, which is a huge part of being a next gen rate is, is your vision for where the business is going. Can we go back to that point where your dad is starting to think about going out and he has the other business partner? What did those discussions sort of look like? You obviously had a higher affinity towards the family business side, if that's the piece you ended up with. But what did that sort of look like as you started to talk about, especially with a non related business, um, partner that your dad had and all of those pieces? Sure.

Speaker A: Um, it was interesting to be, to be perfectly frank, um, I was no different than anybody else that's gone through this. There was some bumps and bruises along the way through those conversations. Um, long story short, let's see if I can. Dad and I, um, had lots of appreciation and respect for one another. I wanted to take the business in a different direction. I wanted to be more holistic and talk more about the soft side of wealth and the, you know, that's why I got involved in, you know, the Purposeful Planning Institute where we met. Um, and just so many differences. When we did try to work together, it was, um, it was a little, it didn't work. Always as pleasant and as wonderful as one would like. So we made a decision to just, you do your thing and I'll do my thing. Um, so even though we were two offices down, there was a point When I worked in Dad's business, um, I actually stepped away from Dad's business, even though we were in the same office, two offices down, you know, two. Two offices away. And I used him as a mentor as we started family wealth and legacy and started thinking about things a little differently. Um, but for all the technical things, I would go to dad when we were in the transition period. Um, his partner and him were together long before I had made a decision to come into the business. So I was super respectful. There was a point that I wasn't even sure whether any of the business would, you know, be available for me to purchase from dad. Um, and then it just. He talked it over with his partner, and his partner's like, I don't even really, you know, the. I can do family businesses, but it's not my favorite thing, so why don't we just split them? And he. It was his idea. So I think being open to the idea that I didn't deserve anything because I wasn't around for as long as his partner, um, you know, kind of go from there.

Speaker B: Um, I love that that was rooted in what is most important to each of you, right? Because you knew that you had a strong interest in family business, but that it didn't quite align in some places. And, uh, you had, like, more of an interest to kind of expand it. And the partner's like, I have interest in this part, but I don't have interest in this part. And it's so funny because sometimes when you start to look at the deals or, or the way people set up their transitions, right, when they actually rooted in that stuff, that's most important. You call it the soft side. I say the same. It's like, truly rooted in. In what is important to each person. You can come up with some very interesting ways to finance the deal. The timeline of the deal. What is it actually included in the deal or not? Because it's very black and white. If you look at a business to say, all of that's going that way, all that's going that way. You can buy in as a partner like this versus, like, oh, there's actually some assets or like some different types of things in here, maybe there's a split that can happen and you were able to do that. So I love that you called that out.

Speaker A: Yeah, I want to hit on that. Because you very rarely do people catch that. Um, and I think it's so important because in the wealth advisory space, especially in the high net worth, in the ultra high net worth space, um, there Are many, you know, m. Uh, next gen advisors coming up in the industry? You know, as a matter of fact, I'm doing a webinar later this month, um, with the dad. And he. And I, you know, uh, I've learned from him through the years, colleagues and whatnot. His son, who's, you know, half my age, is just as sharp and he's in the business and he's like, oh, you got to talk to my son about those things. But I say that because I think that in the wealth advisory space, advisors would be. Would heed, you know, would be mind. Should be mindful, um, of should I split my business. Because most advisors, they've got one or two family businesses that they serve, but the bulk of their book is that, you know, million dollar rollover, the mom and pop across the kitchen table. The retirees that have done well, and it's almost a disservice of hanging on to that client because they've gotten so complicated and there's so many things that they need to know about family business or just business owners in general that, you know, success creates complexity. And if they're not keeping their education up, you know, the other piece of that is that it's probably worth more. Like, in hindsight, I, what, what I purchased from my father, I would have definitely paid more for. And you can bleep that part out because I don't want him to hear that. But seriously, um, when you looked at it, because it was 50% executives and 50% business owners, even dad got to the point where some of the things that could have been done, he wasn't as aggressive to go after them and to help them and to, to dive into those things. Um, and so every one of those families, because of the way I run the business, have said, michael, we want you to run all of this stuff because, you know, you understand the business side, the family side and the wealth side.

Speaker B: Yeah, we call that the win, win, win. Uh, ours is the win for the owner, the current owner, the win for the successor coming up, and also the win for the business. And a lot of what you're talking about right now is a win for the business because you think of the clients, the people you serve, the level you're able to help them at. Um, sure, maybe you would have been willing to pay more. Right? But if that person couldn't take care of those people in the highest way, and there was a desire from the person who was the owner to take care of people in a good way, that's one of our Our top values, like, how do we take care of people? Um, maybe the solution is like, yes, let's, let's do that. Because there's a very strong and compelling vision. And it sounds like you made a really good case for yourself as to why that could be split off and how you could take good care of those people and that it's worked out really well, which I love to hear. So, yeah, it's awesome. And that, that money piece, I just, I wanted to go back to that because you mentioned the kind of like, what it felt like when you like, put your, your money down, right? And you're like, okay, wow, this is, this is real now. Like, what, what was that like for you?

Speaker A: That was. It almost didn't happen. Um, so, you know, dad was really good at monitoring who's going where the, the, you know, the inherit the inherited value to those relationships, yada, yada, yada. And it was awesome. One of the clients had a really great, uh, that was supposed to come to my ledger, had a really good relationship with his partner that I didn't really understand. And so. And it was substantial revenue. And they said, you know, we don't want to go to, we don't want to work with Michael. We want to work with, you know, your partner. Because of that relationship, they, it just felt right for them. And they. The business was sold, so there was no really business owner stuff happening for them. Um, but the, the, um, the, the level of pay didn't change for either of us. And I just thought that that was the most unfair thing that, you know, that that person should be paying for that. You know, the partner should be paying for that revenue. And dad was just done. He's like, I gotta get this deal done. I'm. We're, we're, you know, weeks, months away from this thing, whatever it was at the time. The deal's. The deal. Either take it or leave it. And I really had to re dial myself in to say, where am I at? What's going on here? This just doesn't feel right. And it wasn't his. You, uh, know, in hindsight, in the middle of it, it's so hard. And I was so angry. Um, but in hindsight, from dad, you know, dad December 31st, hung up, his licenses checked out, done. Spent all of his time with mom, which is exactly what he wanted to do. He would. I just didn't realize, you know, at 70 years old, he was done. And just didn't you need any road bumps in, in the way to make things happen? So I'm glad. And again, like I said, I still would have paid more. So even though I had lost that piece of revenue, it was still well worth it. And the families have been served well. I've got some great relationships out of it.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's hard, too. And really, as a successor, to know, like, what true deal breakers are. Because when you're, like, stepping up to that moment or that point where you're very close to transaction, I agree with you that, like, every little thing starts to feel like the biggest deal in the world. Like, oh, what if that goes off the rails? Or what if that. That was certainly the case with mine. I was like, am I making the biggest mistake in the world? Like, starting to buy into this. This business? Like, you don't even know where it's going. You don't even know if you're gonna have more kids. There's all these other things. Right. And for me to go back and what are my true deal breakers around it? Is this, like, actually breaking any of my deal breakers, meaning I would walk away? And if it's not, is that something then that I'm. I'm going to just not give in on? But that is a compromise because no one gets every single thing that they want in a transition.

Speaker A: Right, Right.

Speaker B: Which is unfortunate, but, um, but it, It.

Speaker A: It makes perfectly good sense. Yeah. And. And we, you know, now that I've watched how many deals, you know, earlier I talked about a family that, you know, they had went through a transition because G2 couldn't see, uh, G3. They never. They never cultivated G3 to be leaders. They cultivated them to be doers, and even that. And there was no accountability that was within the business. So there was a lot of G2, or, uh, G3, rather, that were riding the coattails and letting G2 do all the work. And they got tired of it. And they're like, we don't. Yeah, I don't want to sell it to them because we may not get paid. So they sold it outright. And I asked them, I'm like, pled with them, please get an investment banker in here, get somebody to help you think through this process, because you're only going to get one shot at this. They're like, there's so limited buyers. Why would I pay a fee for this? Which we hear all the time in. In, you know, in. Out there. And this family got eaten alive by a company that had, you know, purchased, you know, probably 50 to 100 businesses just like theirs. They knew exactly what to look for. They knew exactly what buttons to push. And they weren't prepared, you know, the finances weren't in order the way that they should have been. All the things that, you know, make a good deal happen, whether it's family or not, um, it wasn't there. So they ended up taking about, uh, 10, 20 discount on, um, what they ended up from, you know, uh, what their valuation came in at. They were way off what they got paid.

Speaker B: Yeah. Plus that's a bigger percentage than their investment banker probably would have taken in the end. Yes.

Speaker A: Right, right, right spot.

Speaker B: So expensive. Expensive. Yeah. But when people talk with us, we're all sort of, um, fee based or like monthly coaching is more of our model because like we're just here to support through the transition, help the people navigate the transition. Well, if at the end of just exploring all the different options, the person decides like, yes, we should go the investment bank, like, okay, at that point let's bring them in. And then we know for sure that that's a good use of time and resources and that there wasn't another path. Right, right. That was, that was going to be better. But it can feel so overwhelming when everything in the world for owners feels like it's coming in. Um, and I know that the show is kind of geared towards successors, but I think it's important for you to recognize what your owners are going through, especially if you're going to try to make a case as to why you as the next generation might be able to come in and steward this business, uh, and take it forward into the next generation. And you need to know the things that are on the other side of the table that that current ownership generation might be considering as options. And at the end of the day you might make a case and it still might not be what's right for the family. And then if the business does get sold, then there's often new different ways. Um, now there's cash and we're managing investment portfolios or new businesses are spinning up out of it. And so it doesn't mean it's the total end of the world, um, if the business does decide to sell, if you are the next generation and still hoping for a role in it.

Speaker A: So agreed. Though the associate that I mentioned said to me, he goes, I interned for you once and since you helped sell my family business, I think you owe me a job. He was tongue in cheek, totally kidding. But I was like, of course. And we worked well together when he interned for us.

Speaker B: We.

Speaker A: But he likes to joke about it.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I, I love that. All right, so let's talk a little bit about your flywheel. If you can just one more time go over those, those high points on that flywheel and then maybe we can dive quickly into to each of those and, and how a next gen might like what their, what their take or their view might be on, on each of those pages.

Speaker A: I ah, think it's so important and these are things like definitely dad and I, when we went through this, we lived all these pieces and, and I don't, you know, I think we could have done a little bit more coaching with ourselves and had a few more conversations that you know, should have happened. Here we are, that's what we do. But then, you know, you're the shoemaker's kid, right? Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So the flywheel is the three pieces that every family business is balancing. We have the business itself and the dream in our, the, the goal is that every family should be looking to have a self operating business so that it doesn't rest on any one person's shoulders for the most part. Um, that's, you know, that, that's the direction the North Star there, the wealth. We call that the family business, family office. Um, it's, it's how do I get everything coordinated into one plan? Um, there's more pieces to it and I'll break some of those down. But the big picture is that successful family owned businesses, or any business owner for that matter, success creates complexity. And it's very rare that I've run into people where the attorney, the accountant, the wealth advisor, the insurance person, the business coach are all talking together to say what's in the best interest of this family or what are some of the things that you're, that you're doing for this family this coming year so that we can see if there's any overlap. You know, you know what they say when you're taking medications, there's what is that interaction? Right, so you're doing something for tax purposes. But how's that going to affect the estate or how's that going to affect the business or the wealth and making sure that we're integrating everything. Um, so I call that the family business, family office. We have not had a liquidity event, but we still have all the complications of having wealth. Um, and then sustainable family legacy is the, is the third piece of that and take sustainable and legacy out of there. We all have a family and somebody started that family and then it's whether our relationships are realigned and are we communicating well, do we trust each other Just at the family level, are we going in the direction that we want to do? Are we leading together? And those pieces are a lot of times where the grinding starts to happen, um, where the cogs get stuck, or if you're looking at this as, you know that from that perspective. And I like to think about the family is the most important asset. The business is an asset. Uh, you've got all kinds of, you know, real estate and investments. But. And for all of those, you know, for the business and the investments, you're spending 1 to 2% a year to protect them, to grow them, to do all that stuff. But what percent are you investing back into the family as an asset class to ensure that you can lead together for generations? Um, and so that's why I, you know, I originally called it the flywheel. And I thought, you know, when I looked at the, the three circle model, um, of family wealth and family, you know, family business, like, it describes why it's so complicated. I wanted to describe a model that showed how to fix it. But then when I started to look at it, I'm like, you know, I was all proud of the flywheel and this, and I'm like, every family already has a flywheel. It's already there. It's. It's just a matter of whether it's spinning smoothly or not.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And so the, the three pieces, the business, the wealth, and then the family itself, the legacy of the family. We always say in our work, because there, there are things that happen. Right, but so you might end up getting excluded from the wealth or the business, which is, is never great. But that doesn't mean that you're not part of the family anymore. And how do you, like, as a next gen, sort of navigate that? I've met next gens who purposefully opted out of wealth, more commonly business. So you're offered a role in the family business or there's no role for you currently that the business can support. That doesn't mean that you're not part of the family or that your worth is any less because you don't have an active operating role in the business. Um, I've seen next gen say, you know, I think the family wealth is great. I want to opt out of that because of my values or I would love to see our family wealth be invested in this type of way, impact investing, or I would really love to be involved in the family wealth on the philanthropy side and thinking about how we give back to our communities. So you also get a say kind of in how you participate in that wealth area, but at the end of the day, you never leave that family piece. So what do those relationships look like? How are you communicating? How do you come together as a family unit so that everyone can participate in a way that feels good to them? I think is. It's very tricky to do that.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I, I agree. It takes work. And that's why I say the investing in the family, how much, you know, uh, bringing in a facilitator to help us think about, you know, values, vision and purpose, to think about communication styles and, um, keeping us connected even though we may be in the business or may not be in the business. And you know, to your point, think about this. I have a family business that's a big part of the community, but I don't want to be part of it. I choose not to be part of it. But you know what? I could be part of the family. Philanthropy and my work out in the community is just as important, you know, for the family name and for the business name, but just taking a different, you know, a different swing at it.

Speaker B: Yeah. And that does start with the next gens knowing and understanding what is really important to you before we, like, come into this, this like, big body of work. So if you're listening to this and it's a little bit like, ah, uh, I don't, I don't really know what I want. There's, there's ways and there's tools to think about what is important to you. What do you want for your family? Because you're not just making decisions for yourself. If, um, you decide to get married or you have a partner potentially, um, you and your partner have children. You're now thinking about your next generation and the impact to them and how they might be able to participate in this in some way, shape or form. And it could feel really heavy. Um, it can feel like a really big decision and it can feel really hard.

Speaker A: So I, I think to your point, again, I'll go back and say, you know, we. 50 years ago, I like to talk about this. 50 years ago, if you said, you know, I'm going to see a therapist, people would shun you, say, what's wrong with you? What's matter with you Today? When we say we're going to see a therapist, it's so okay. It just means you're taking your mental health seriously and, you know, we understand how complex the world is and that, you know, I just might need somebody to talk to to help get out and dealing with somebody who's professional about it is probably better than just meeting with my girlfriend or boyfriend or, you know, my wife or, you know what I mean, to pull those things out. I'm hopeful that in the next 10 years, the same thing happens for families where it's, you know, if they bring in a family facilitator that's really good with governance and family dynamics, it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the family. Just means that they're very serious about, you know, preparing the next generation. And I think that the next gen, if you're a next gen listening to this right now, I believe it's almost your responsibility to bring that thinking to the generation before you. Because they're so caught up in running the business, oftentimes they've got blinders on. They don't realize that, oh, my goodness, family is my number one most important asset. And I do think legacy. You know, my grandfather, my grandmother started this business. And I, uh, want to keep it going. I want to be. I don't, you know, I want to make sure that we're passing the torch or the baton properly. How do we do that? And it takes. It takes a special set of skills like you have, you know, to be able to do that.

Speaker B: And you started to touch on something I wanted to tap into. So, um, I'm glad we can go there. So, like you say, it's almost the responsibility of the next gen to start these conversations in our work. 50, 60% of the time, I might be hearing from the next generation first. And I want to acknowledge why I think that is. I think it's because you have a stronger pain point. When Michael starts to talk about, like, you started to say, like, your family are. The parents are so wrapped up in running and operating the business. Right. You're starting to see, like, oh, this is going to impact me someday. This is going to impact my family. I don't know what my role is. I don't know what my future is. Maybe I've been told I do have a role. I don't have a role. I'm, um, going to maybe be expected to have a role. You're feeling that stress and that. That pain point of, like, I don't know exactly how this is going to play out for me, and I would love to know what that might look like. So in a situation like that, where the successor is starting to be like, I could see how this could impact our family dynamics, or I'm curious what my role looks like or how I might get involved or how I might become an owner or all those questions that come up. Um, I have a great episode that came out a few weeks ago with, ah, Celine. We talk a lot about entitlement. Um, and the answer there was we don't really. I don't, I don't personally believe it's entitlement if you are asking for more information on how you can participate, um, and be better. So with that kind of laid out on the table that you're not being entitled if you ask, what advice would you give Michael, to a next gen who's starting to notice some of these things, like how do you bring up the conversation with your parents or with the people who are the current owners about potentially bringing in someone to help facilitate discussions about the future?

Speaker A: So I think the easiest way is to do things together. And here's what I mean by that. Hey, dad, I'm really, uh, Mom, I'm really interested in what the future of the family business looks like. I've started to listen to this podcast. You know, your next gen friend, family business, you know, the family biz show. Uh, would you listen to this episode and can we discuss it and see what you think about it? I think that's a safe way to do it. Um, the other thing is that we are so blessed today to have family business centers across the United States that getting involved in a family business center, I think is super helpful. Um, signing up for, you know, there's people like you running webinars and trainings and me doing the same thing. And it's like, so pop on some of these things and then just open up the discussion to where do we go from m here? And, um, and maybe it's a slow burn. Maybe it's takes three, four, you know, 10, 30, whatever it is for them to say, okay, I guess we really got to start doing this.

Speaker B: Yeah. No, I love that you called out consistency. I love that you called out inviting them because at the end of the day they will also be inviting you to participate, exploring what a future role looks like. It does not mean you're guaranteed, uh, what any of that looks like. And so you're really just asking for an invitation in. You're not asking for answers. I think there's ways you can word it. Um, certainly in our work, m, me and my team, if we meet with a successor first. And, um, sometimes you just want to go back to your parents, right, and talk to them on your own. Um, sometimes that works. And other times it's like, hey, why don't we all get on A call. Um, and I can help you sort of share that. I'm sure, Michael, you do the same as well. So, yeah, feel free to use resources available to you, because in my work and Michael's work, we see how powerful this is for families. When you can come to the table and you said together, um, that's like, really the, the way that transitions are going to happen in the future is both the current and rising gens are coming to the table to figure out what that looks like together. Um, no. One generation is figuring out. You're not going to come up with a whole plan and present it to your parents, and they're going to be like, yay, great transition plan. So glad you did that for us. And on the flip side, you're going to be like, if they just came with a full plan, all the way spilled out. Right. And you're like, but you didn't even consider these five things that are important to me. You don't like that either. So you have to do it together. You have to do it together. Yeah.

Speaker A: Agreed. Love it.

Speaker B: Cool. Well, as a closing thought, if you were sitting across from a next gen right now, any topic in the world, um, what was. What would be something that, that you would tell them to try this week, Something to kind of move forward or help them expand their thinking.

Speaker A: Sure. Um, find three podcasts that you like and just start listening. And then find three books that you like in. In. Try to find them in each of the different areas. Find one about business, find one about wealth, find one about family. And, you know, we all. We know who they are. So, you know, you can email Andrea or check, you know, check in with her on LinkedIn and say, Hey, I need a book recommendation, um, or other podcast recommendations. And you can. Happy to do that. With you. With me as well. Um, as I just said this, I'm going to put a book, um, resource on the. On our. On our website. Um, because I do think that would be a great idea.

Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. There's so many good books in this space. Or even just about leadership and growth for yourself.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And how you can show up better. Yeah, I love that. All right, well, Michael, thanks for coming on the show. I know that you're the host of the Family Biz show. Um, which is super cool how if people were interested in learning more or, um, going to your website when you have those book resources up, uh, how can people find you and get in touch with you?

Speaker A: Sure. Um, the Family Biz or the Family Biz show is the podcast and that's on every platform that you can think about. It's also available on YouTube if you're more into the videos. Um, and then, uh, family business. Uh, flywheel.com is the website for just. And that's. It's there for educational purposes. There's no asks to do anything. You know, that we have an assessment and things out there, but we really just want to educate people around. You know, what this all looks like as you're going through. Why is it so complicated? It didn't used to be so complicated. Um, today it is.

Speaker B: Awesome. Well, I encourage everyone to check out those resources. And thanks, Michael, for coming on the show.

Speaker A: Andrea, thank you so much.

Speaker B: All right, have a good one, everyone. That's it for today. I hope today's episode offered some clarity, or at least a little company. If this resonated, I'd be so grateful if you'd share it with another next gen. Well, my podcast is for the successors. You can also check out its sister show, the Business Transition Roadmap, hosted by my business partner, Elizabeth LeDoux. There's lots of great material in business and family succession over there. I hope you'll take a listen. Be well and see you next time.