He's a Lawyer AND a CPA. Here's the One Question That Changed His Sales | with Christopher Papin

1 - > SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to another episode of the 2 - > Accounting Leads Now podcast. 3 - > My guest today, I actually met a few weeks ago at GrowCon in Salt 4 - > Lake City. 5 - > We were in the same room, struck up a conversation, and I knew 6 - > pretty quickly this guy needed to be on the show. 7 - > He runs both a law firm and a CPA firm at the same time and 8 - > somehow manages to build an award-winning practice without 9 - > destroying his team or personal life in the process.

10 - > Forbes recognized them, Thomas Reuters recognized them, and he 11 - > still manages to keep work-life balance from being just a thing 12 - > people say at conferences. 13 - > He also wrote a book called 168 Hours, a startup business guide 14 - > built specifically around the reality that you don't have 15 - > unlimited time. 16 - > And he hosts the PLABO podcast, Plabo. 17 - > The way he thinks about productivity, client 18 - > communication, and running a dual discipline practice is 19 - > worth your full attention.

20 - > Chris Papen, welcome to the show. 21 - > SPEAKER_01: What's up, James? 22 - > How are you? 23 - > SPEAKER_00: I'm pumped to have you here, Chris.

24 - > I hope I didn't absolutely butcher the name of your podcast 25 - > in the intro, and I'm hoping that pushes a lot of people with 26 - > curiosity over to your show before we even get out of the 27 - > gates. 28 - > SPEAKER_01: Right, Blabo. 29 - > What is Blabo? 30 - > You'll find out.

31 - > SPEAKER_00: Blabo. 32 - > Okay. 33 - > So I did butcher it a little bit, but uh I think you'll send 34 - > some grace my way. 35 - > So, Chris, we had a chance to connect, I believe you probably 36 - > came by the booth, but we really got to connect a dinner the 37 - > night of the gala at uh at Grocon.

38 - > Just off the top, for those who weren't there, what was your 39 - > favorite part about being a Grocon? 40 - > SPEAKER_01: So I think there's like a 1A and 1B. 41 - > Um good attorney always says it depends, right? 42 - > But 1A were the people.

43 - > I think the people in the room, um, you and I just kind of being 44 - > able to do this is a testament to the types of folks that were 45 - > around and their willingness to share and allow us to learn from 46 - > one another. 47 - > But secondarily, there was a unique focus. 48 - > Didn't matter the presenter, but obviously grow con. 49 - > It's about grow, right?

50 - > How do you grow your firm? 51 - > How do you grow your presence? 52 - > But there was a unique focus that appealed to everybody in 53 - > the room. 54 - > So I got to start to listen to different ways other firms were 55 - > doing things, or maybe different ways bookkeeping only firms were 56 - > approaching their strategies and how they're gaining clients or 57 - > how they're servicing their clients, which makes us look at 58 - > our model a little bit different.

59 - > So that that part was exciting because you you were kind enough 60 - > to share all kinds of tips and tricks. 61 - > And and you know, I think you've got just mountains of embedded 62 - > wisdom that if somebody will just listen for 30 seconds, 63 - > they'll they'll pick something up, but that's the point. 64 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, awesome. 65 - > Well, I appreciate I appreciate that.

66 - > And yeah, I mean Grocon is a great conference. 67 - > It was our third time going back. 68 - > Um, and it was awesome to meet you there. 69 - > And I'm pumped to see you at the next next conference where we 70 - > can cross paths again and share a meal.

71 - > So, two two firms, Chris. 72 - > You got a law firm and a CPA firm running simultaneously. 73 - > That sounds like an incredible lift, a ton on your plate. 74 - > How did that even happen?

75 - > Walk me back to where this all started. 76 - > SPEAKER_01: All right. 77 - > A whole bunch, super short. 78 - > If I need to unpack any of it, tell me.

79 - > But mom and dad were both entrepreneurs, grew up around 80 - > it. 81 - > They they taught at the local university, had uh businesses. 82 - > So there's this educational and business component that I just 83 - > take for granted to some extent. 84 - > When my dad passed, my brother had to take over family 85 - > business.

86 - > So there's a succession planning, you know, to be 87 - > determined in the rest of the story that's in there. 88 - > Uh to this day, still operates dad's business. 89 - > So as I see these things, there's a lot of stuff in 90 - > business land that I was just good at. 91 - > Saw, again, took for granted.

92 - > Somewhere in my accounting program, it wasn't quite this 93 - > direct, but I started skipping pieces of the chapter and went 94 - > to the professor. 95 - > I'm like, why are we skipping the good stuff? 96 - > And the essence of it was what we were studying was accounting. 97 - > What we weren't was typically done by lawyers with drafting.

98 - > So in the moment, I was like, yeah, that's dumb. 99 - > Why can't the same person do this? 100 - > Like that, it's in the same book. 101 - > I don't get it.

102 - > Fast forward, you know, did the accounting program, did my 103 - > master's, got my CPA, sat for the exam while I was going to 104 - > law school, in law school, kind of knew, you know, small 105 - > business, small business owner land, didn't know this is where 106 - > I would land, but kind of knew the path. 107 - > And then it had a law school professor kind of grab me and 108 - > say, Chris, you know you're not normal, right? 109 - > Like I knew this person relatively well.

110 - > I'm like, what the heck are you talking about? 111 - > And they're like, no one in their right mind takes the CPA 112 - > exam, let alone passes it during their breaks of law school. 113 - > What are you doing? 114 - > And some of it was just challenging me because, like, 115 - > hey, this is a unique accomplishment.

116 - > There's some statistical anomaly anomalies that go with it, but 117 - > that's the first time it actually hit. 118 - > Because what it the what are you doing was something around what 119 - > are you trying to build, what's the practice you're trying to be 120 - > in. 121 - > And it was representing small businesses and small business 122 - > owners. 123 - > I didn't, I've had I've got experience working in big giant 124 - > companies, I've got experience working in one-man bands, but it 125 - > was this weird interentrepreneurial thing in 126 - > between where there's not a common place to go to get a lot 127 - > of these conversations.

128 - > And, you know, like you're kind enough to do through this 129 - > podcast, you're bringing people on to tell stories. 130 - > Well, clients have one story, they've got one business. 131 - > I represent hundreds. 132 - > We've done this thousands of times.

133 - > So when somebody exits their business, when I was a young 134 - > gun, they were like, What do you know about succession planning? 135 - > Like, huh? 136 - > Let me tell you, dad passed. 137 - > I lived it.

138 - > Yeah. 139 - > Oh. 140 - > So it was a different vibe. 141 - > And that's how it all comes together.

142 - > It's not a heavy lift in the sense that I represent small 143 - > businesses and small business owners just like you do. 144 - > We have the same types of conversations. 145 - > You're just the specialist in one area, whereas I'm a 146 - > specialist in another. 147 - > Have you ever talked to anybody about uncertainty in their 148 - > business?

149 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, put a finger down. 150 - > SPEAKER_01: Right? 151 - > It's a same drill, same drill. 152 - > So that's kind of the cliff notes to get you there.

153 - > It's a lot, I know it's a mouthful. 154 - > I'll be less caffeinated with the rest of my answers. 155 - > SPEAKER_00: No, no, that's good. 156 - > So when when a client comes to you, and I'm I'm guessing maybe 157 - > it's the avenue or the channel they come from, but how how do 158 - > you explain what you do, the services you offer, or or where 159 - > do you start?

160 - > Is it obviously if they come through the law firm route, 161 - > that's more law-driven the conversation. 162 - > Is it as easy as that if they come through the the accounting 163 - > firm route, or is it pretty blended in how you respond back 164 - > to that potential client? 165 - > SPEAKER_01: The short answer is yes. 166 - > Uh, as you well know, clients are going to come to you in 167 - > whatever form they come to you.

168 - > Most of the time there's a pain point, and and you're spot on in 169 - > the sense, like, hey, I'm calling the law firm because I 170 - > need an estate plan, or I'm exiting my business, or I'm 171 - > starting my business. 172 - > Same thing on the CPA firm. 173 - > They'll call and they'll say, you know, hey, I'm getting ready 174 - > to buy into a practice, or I'm leaving my W-2 and I'm going out 175 - > on my own. 176 - > I need to start.

177 - > Sometimes it's just I pay way too much in taxes. 178 - > This sucks. 179 - > I need help. 180 - > I try to say that's a translation game because they're 181 - > going to tell me the common thing that they know.

182 - > And, you know, again, I know you're uniquely situated to do 183 - > this because you've got to do it in a digital environment to get 184 - > people in the door, but clients say the thing that's bothering 185 - > them, like, I don't ever want to pay taxes again. 186 - > Well, guess what? 187 - > I got your solution. 188 - > I can get you to zero tax.

189 - > What they mean is I want to keep all the money and pay none of 190 - > the tax. 191 - > Well, my solution gives me all the money. 192 - > We're going to do a profit share, and I'm going to take all 193 - > your profits and eliminate all your taxes. 194 - > But that's not what clients want.

195 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 196 - > SPEAKER_01: So, how do you play this game to translate that 197 - > info? 198 - > And we've built what I think is a relatively good onboarding 199 - > process to hear what clients say, take some space, validate 200 - > the information with data in between, and then come back to 201 - > them. 202 - > And if we do it right, it's something like, hey, James, I 203 - > heard you say you were frustrated with last year's 204 - > process.

205 - > You were blindsided because you had to write a$20,000 check in 206 - > April. 207 - > Well, here's how my process works. 208 - > At the worst, you'd have known you had to write a$20,000 check 209 - > in January. 210 - > Does that fit for you or no?

211 - > And then the clients will either opt in or opt out. 212 - > That's my job is not to sell them at that point. 213 - > It's here's how I do it, doesn't make sense. 214 - > And if I can get the right people to the table, I'm not the 215 - > right brand for everybody.

216 - > I get it. 217 - > And my personality is not for everybody. 218 - > I get that too. 219 - > But when we fit, it's a home run.

220 - > And and you know, guys like you have kind of coached us along 221 - > the way. 222 - > But I'm I'm curious here too. 223 - > Like in what I just said, how do you like get how do you 224 - > translate? 225 - > Because something we we struggle with.

226 - > Like you want to put it like an SEO marketing, like pay too much 227 - > in taxes, like you've got your keywords, but that doesn't 228 - > always yield the right client. 229 - > So prompt me in here a little bit on this. 230 - > Like, how do you make that transition and how do you do 231 - > that? 232 - > We we customize everything, we're we're customized, like 233 - > everything's a customized template.

234 - > But what would your thoughts be on some of that? 235 - > Because I'm not the only path. 236 - > I know that. 237 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it's a great question.

238 - > And I want to come back to a point because I want to ask you 239 - > about your sales process or just sales in general based off what 240 - > you were saying there. 241 - > Um, but yeah, to your point, it's really just it's not what 242 - > is that the first thing that's being said, it's peeling back 243 - > the onion. 244 - > What is the the real root cause of what's happening? 245 - > Like you said, I don't want to pay taxes anymore.

246 - > No, you you want to keep all of your your money. 247 - > Um, so it's yeah, when writing that copy, when writing the ad, 248 - > it may not be so, for example, you're putting me on the spot 249 - > here, Chris. 250 - > I'm used to being in the interview chair, not the 251 - > interviewee. 252 - > Um, we used to do a lot of outbound messaging for our 253 - > clients on LinkedIn.

254 - > A lot of firms do it, a lot of people really suck at it. 255 - > And I'm sure you probably get so many messages in your inbox all 256 - > the time, and it's someone, hey Chris, see you work here, boom, 257 - > it's a novel about what they do versus how can it actually help 258 - > you? 259 - > What is in it for you? 260 - > So rather than hey Chris, um, here at our bookkeeping firm, 261 - > you know, we're the best at bookkeeping and blah, blah, 262 - > blah, we would approach it as, hey Chris, when was the last 263 - > time you got all the support you needed from your from your 264 - > current financial team?

265 - > Hey Chris, when was the last time you got an up-to-date PL 266 - > that told you exactly where you're bleeding cash? 267 - > Now there's gonna be a dialogue that's getting started versus do 268 - > you like your do you like your accountant? 269 - > Do you do like do you have an accountant? 270 - > Because if we're the best.

271 - > Well, okay, everyone can say they're the best. 272 - > But it's it's one, I think, similar to what was spoken about 273 - > during the marketing panel, just being a pattern interrupt, but 274 - > two, just knowing you got to know your audience, which is why 275 - > niching down is so important, or knowing multiple industries. 276 - > But if you know what the the true thing is that keeps them up 277 - > at night, you approach it from that angle versus head on, and 278 - > now it becomes a lot more of a conversation.

279 - > I think that works really well. 280 - > SPEAKER_01: Okay, and I think this aligns. 281 - > So it did it, audience. 282 - > We didn't plan any of this.

283 - > So this is in order or game. 284 - > SPEAKER_00: See, this is why I host because I just rambled on 285 - > there for half the episode. 286 - > Um, Chris, I I want to ask you because the way you approach 287 - > that, I'm guessing you probably have a lot of success. 288 - > And this may you know come across and you're probably gonna 289 - > be very humble with it, but I'm guessing you have a lot of 290 - > success when it comes to sales conversations because you're 291 - > approaching it from well, if I'm hearing you correctly and what 292 - > they came to you asking for that one thing top of mind, you're 293 - > going deeper and you're asking more things.

294 - > SPEAKER_01: So let me go two steps back to make sure I curate 295 - > this for the audience, right? 296 - > We are looking at the accounting process of tomorrow, not 297 - > yesterday. 298 - > So everything we do is digital. 299 - > And sarcastically, I mean, I'm not shy to say this, like we 300 - > still have some paper stuff that goes through the office, but if 301 - > you can't send me a PDF inside of a secure portal, you're not 302 - > my client.

303 - > And I don't mean that to be rude to people, but that's the 304 - > environment we live in. 305 - > That's that's normal in today's world. 306 - > So to build systems that accommodate what is not normal 307 - > doesn't work well. 308 - > So everything lead funnel, everything we do is this digital 309 - > environment.

310 - > So there's like digital layer one, then digital layer two, can 311 - > you use our online calendaring? 312 - > Because everything we do is by appointment. 313 - > We don't do it on the fly. 314 - > Digital layer three is can you upload information to us?

315 - > So there's things that are going on even before the client gets 316 - > to us to have that personal element where they're 317 - > experiencing our brand. 318 - > And I'm a little bit different because you know, you throw out 319 - > the like closing statistics, we've got 70, 80% close, but 320 - > it's because of this other filter. 321 - > I don't want to do a lot of prospect meetings to figure out 322 - > if I want to work with people or not. 323 - > Let the system run for that.

324 - > When I get face to face with people, we know we can help them 325 - > solve a problem. 326 - > The question is, do the fees line up, do the expectations 327 - > line up, and do the personalities line up? 328 - > So you're spot on in the sense of by the time we get to the 329 - > conversation, we've tried to diagnose two or three things. 330 - > The system's never perfect, there's always an exception.

331 - > But the reality is that info gather. 332 - > Like I tease people, I mean, it kind of feels like I'm examining 333 - > everything and you're standing on the table naked. 334 - > Yeah, we want your financial statements, we want all the 335 - > stuff. 336 - > Not because I care how much you spend at Costco, it's because it 337 - > gives me perspective as to how your numbers flow so that I can 338 - > speak to you as an intelligent advisor in your terms, not mine.

339 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 340 - > Because if if you're just taking everything at face value, I feel 341 - > like now you're just an order taker, you're not the advisor. 342 - > Yeah. 343 - > And I I say this to everyone who we speak to where they're 344 - > offering, you know, fractional CFO services, they're doing 345 - > advisory.

346 - > That's awesome. 347 - > But the the average business owner doesn't search for 348 - > fractional CFO near me because they don't know what a 349 - > fractional CFO is. 350 - > They're gonna come to you saying they need help with bookkeeping 351 - > or they need help reducing their taxes. 352 - > You need to ask enough questions and peel back those layers and, 353 - > like you said, really get a true understanding of where that 354 - > person's at to then lean into the advisory conversation 355 - > because they don't know they need that yet.

356 - > You do as the expert, and it sounds like that's what you do 357 - > with your clients. 358 - > You ask enough of the right questions. 359 - > And I'm also guessing, Chris, if someone goes, Why are you asking 360 - > me all these questions, but is this an interview? 361 - > They're also probably not a fit for you because they don't 362 - > understand the value of what you're trying to accomplish.

363 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if somebody ever says, Is this an interview 364 - > to us? 365 - > I mean, my response is, yeah, I get the choice as to whether I 366 - > work with you or not. 367 - > You recognize that, right? 368 - > I don't have to give you an engagement letter.

369 - > It's a little bit of an admission process. 370 - > Yeah, I love it. 371 - > I like that because it preserves the integrity of our client 372 - > base, which goes back to keeping the team happy and other things. 373 - > We leave some money on the table sometimes doing that.

374 - > And and you know, like your traditional growth-based type 375 - > people kind of pick on me because of it, but we're okay 376 - > with it. 377 - > It's the space we're in, that's what we want to do, and you 378 - > know, it's cool having your name on the wall. 379 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 380 - > Well, I mean, you can also make the argument, sure, you may be 381 - > leaving a few dollars on the table, but how many headaches 382 - > did you also not bring into your firm because now you know that 383 - > that's kind of screams red flag client, or they don't fall into 384 - > your processes.

385 - > And if it's not in your process, now it becomes custom work, and 386 - > custom work requires a lot more effort and just like on and on 387 - > and on. 388 - > So I like that you guys are strict and you know who your 389 - > ideal client is and you have that process. 390 - > So that's that's really cool to hear. 391 - > Um, Chris, you guys have picked up some incredible awards, 392 - > Forbes, Thomas Router.

393 - > If I did I pronounce that correctly again, I know I have 394 - > to do that. 395 - > SPEAKER_01: Thompson Router. 396 - > Thompson Reuters, yeah. 397 - > Man Ryder butchered it on the deal.

398 - > SPEAKER_00: My TPE, those aren't small recognitions by any 399 - > stretch. 400 - > What do you think you're actually doing differently that 401 - > led that led you to those? 402 - > SPEAKER_01: So what's funny is we we've kind of morphed over 403 - > the years and started branding ourselves as an award-winning 404 - > firm. 405 - > Love it.

406 - > People have actually asked the question, like, hey, do you 407 - > trace chase the trophies or do you nominate yourself? 408 - > Or some of these awards I didn't even know I was gonna get. 409 - > Like I had no clue. 410 - > So they're they're true honors in some senses.

411 - > There are others that, yeah, there was a nomination process, 412 - > and of course, you fill out your packets and do all the things. 413 - > I mean, people know what's going on there. 414 - > But at the end of the day, it all boils back down to small 415 - > business, small business owner. 416 - > I know what they want because I happen to be one too, just like 417 - > you are.

418 - > So I go through this journey of how can we set ourselves up in a 419 - > way that speaks to something that is different. 420 - > Uh, when I first started my firm, we at my old firm ran 421 - > payroll in-house. 422 - > I never had a passion for payroll. 423 - > It's a necessary evil in my mind, but it is the most 424 - > frequent engagement that exists for your clients.

425 - > So you need to be present to serve it. 426 - > And when I got into my firm, I think this illustrates 427 - > everything you're asking. 428 - > Clients were hesitant when I said, hey, we're gonna partner 429 - > with some strategic third parties to process your payroll. 430 - > Oh my gosh, what if it's wrong?

431 - > What if it's, what if it's, what if it's I'm like, it's the same 432 - > fear that you have today, you just know me. 433 - > But let me rephrase it for you. 434 - > You're paying them 50 bucks a month to get it right, or 75 or 435 - > 150, whatever the number is, or you can pay me my hourly rate to 436 - > do it, plus the surcharge for systems and everything else, 437 - > because effective rate for a JDCPA to process payrolls, 438 - > probably not in your firm's or in your company's budget.

439 - > Oh, you know you're right. 440 - > So the minute they started to look through, you actually are 441 - > looking out in our best interest. 442 - > And it's not a condemnation or props to payroll companies or 443 - > anything like that. 444 - > It's just an example.

445 - > We steer in the lanes we want to be in, we're good at it. 446 - > The things we don't want to be in, we'll partner with people, 447 - > we'll find guys like James that can help us execute on the 448 - > things we're not experts at. 449 - > And because I have those candid conversations, it leads back to 450 - > this other side of client trust, client buy-in. 451 - > Um, I know that's a little bit of a flowery answer at the same 452 - > time, but the reality is the clients reached out to me with 453 - > like the JDCPA is a hook.

454 - > And and everybody loves the idea of having an attorney on call 455 - > just in case. 456 - > You know how many clients call me just in case? 457 - > Because if it's that big of a deal, you don't want me on the 458 - > phone, you want a litigator on the phone. 459 - > Yeah, yeah, yeah.

460 - > There's there's a comfort to it. 461 - > Now, for the planning side, for the strategic, the 462 - > transactional, all that stuff, yeah, it's awesome. 463 - > So if you're a small business owner that's gonna be in growth 464 - > mode, I am on call. 465 - > I know what's going on with the financials, I can draft the 466 - > documents, but it's not all about me.

467 - > It's about meeting them where they are, making the sales 468 - > process to close a business deal as easy as possible. 469 - > If there's no business broker, it's gonna go hard. 470 - > And if I'm on the seller side, we dictate terms. 471 - > If you're on the buyer side, you got to jump through hoops.

472 - > Again, if there's no broker, it's hard. 473 - > Well, I can talk people through this emotional roller coaster. 474 - > We've done it before. 475 - > We've been there.

476 - > I mean, I've got somebody who just signed a letter of intent 477 - > and they're over the moon wanting to celebrate. 478 - > And folks, that letter of intent means nothing. 479 - > It is a promise ring, is my catchphrase with it. 480 - > It's not a marriage.

481 - > You're not signing anything, it's just a promise to make a 482 - > promise at another time. 483 - > People don't know that stuff. 484 - > So when we can sit down shoulder to shoulder with folks and tell 485 - > the stories like that, that's where I think it really shines. 486 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's awesome.

487 - > It's so well, so well articulated. 488 - > So I want to touch on two quick things here. 489 - > Um, well, we'll we'll we'll see what we can squeeze in as we're 490 - > I don't want to take up all of your time here, Chris. 491 - > But um, you mentioned team harmony and work-life balance in 492 - > the same breath as um as those awards.

493 - > How do you protect that? 494 - > What does that look like in practice for you and and for 495 - > your team members? 496 - > Because I'm guessing you practice what you preach. 497 - > SPEAKER_01: We try to.

498 - > And and the thing that everybody needs to realize is like I have 499 - > a book written about time management. 500 - > 168 hours is about a week. 501 - > That's why it's 168 hours. 502 - > Every day we all get the same 24 hours.

503 - > What you choose to do with it's up to you. 504 - > I don't want my team spending the majority of their life at 505 - > work. 506 - > If we do it right, it's a maximum of a third on a business 507 - > day. 508 - > It's just not the type of firm I want to run.

509 - > It's not the work-life balance people want to have. 510 - > So we started with how do we kind of assemble this in a 511 - > healthy environment? 512 - > Sure, I work overtime during tax season, but I get the luxury of 513 - > going to Salt Lake and meeting James during not tax season. 514 - > So that's the give and take that I think people need to figure 515 - > out.

516 - > The other side of it is candidly, I've just like I've 517 - > got people that have specialties in different areas, and those 518 - > are the kinds of customers that we onboard. 519 - > The example I like to give is if you have somebody who has 520 - > bartending or server experience, they need to be talking to your 521 - > clients because that's the environment they've been in. 522 - > So if you pay attention to skill sets and kind of get things 523 - > aligned. 524 - > Moms are really good at organizing people's lives.

525 - > So let them. 526 - > Our clients need organization. 527 - > They're business owners that are all over the place. 528 - > So if you look at those different things and allow 529 - > people to focus on their natural attributes, usually the rest 530 - > kind of falls in place.

531 - > SPEAKER_00: I I love what you just mentioned about team 532 - > members who have hospitality experience. 533 - > We're in the process of bringing on a new account manager, and 534 - > that's never crossed my mind. 535 - > And I until someone said it to me the other day of, oh, we look 536 - > for candidates who have a background hospitality. 537 - > I was like, wow, that seems so simple.

538 - > Like, why didn't I think of that before? 539 - > And that is front and center on our job description now, because 540 - > you can teach the other things. 541 - > It's hard to teach people skills. 542 - > If they're good at people skills, the the the technical 543 - > stuff for what we're looking for for this particular role, that's 544 - > the easy part.

545 - > SPEAKER_01: And the unspoken thing in all of this is 546 - > hospitality knows when to push back and when not to. 547 - > And that's just as important with scope creep and everything 548 - > else. 549 - > I mean, yeah, when people don't know what you do for a living, 550 - > it says tax on it, therefore, or it says marketing web lead, 551 - > therefore it's James's problem. 552 - > No, it's not.

553 - > It depends. 554 - > So I love the fact you're right in there and somebody got to you 555 - > to get that in your head early. 556 - > SPEAKER_00: Well, and now and now I have a lot of reassurance 557 - > on that as well, hearing that from you. 558 - > Um, Chris, with 168 hours, um, what was the most rewarding part 559 - > of writing and publishing your book?

560 - > SPEAKER_01: So, what's interesting is I had the idea. 561 - > Um, writing's not my favorite thing, even though I'm a I'm a 562 - > lawyer. 563 - > And it kind of on one of those, like, oh, should I do it? 564 - > Should I not?

565 - > It's it's a good marketing piece, it's a good validator for 566 - > a lot of things. 567 - > So a lot of people were encouraging me to do it. 568 - > But what was my favorite thing was the aha moment. 569 - > The book is built on a business plan.

570 - > People are gonna look at it and be like, oh, I've seen these 571 - > concepts before. 572 - > I know what these things are. 573 - > Here's the catch. 574 - > I represent small businesses and small business owners.

575 - > We have meeting transcripts, we have slide decks, we have tax 576 - > returns, we have coaching materials. 577 - > It was all pre-written. 578 - > I just had to organize the damn thing. 579 - > Yeah.

580 - > So we started to pull all this together and obviously put it in 581 - > a literary version rather than bullet points and business-y, 582 - > but that was when I got the aha moment of this book's already 583 - > written, I just have to organize. 584 - > I was like, I'm capable of that. 585 - > We do that every day. 586 - > SPEAKER_00: Interesting.

587 - > That's cool. 588 - > Yeah, I'm guessing it was, I don't know, like that I'm 589 - > picturing a movie where just like everything's kind of coming 590 - > together on the screen and it the whole picture was right in 591 - > front of you. 592 - > You had all the puzzle pieces on the table, and then you just saw 593 - > it come to life. 594 - > Uh, I need to get a copy of your book.

595 - > I uh that's that's next on the list as soon as we wrap this 596 - > episode up. 597 - > And I encourage everyone who's listening to go grab a copy of 598 - > 168 hours by Christopher C. 599 - > Papen. 600 - > Christopher, what should everyone do who's listening as 601 - > soon as this episode is done?

602 - > The number one thing they can take away to go either better 603 - > themselves, better their business, just overall the 604 - > action item they need to do when this episode is done before they 605 - > roll into whatever podcast pops up on queue after. 606 - > If it's not the Accounting Leads Now podcast. 607 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I need 30 minutes of somebody's week. 608 - > That's it.

609 - > And I would I I'm gonna drive some people bananas with this. 610 - > But what I need is for 15 minutes, put everything away. 611 - > Put your phone down, put your pen down, no notes, no writing, 612 - > nothing, and think. 613 - > Focus on the things that are important to you.

614 - > Now somebody in their mind is like, well, but what if I have a 615 - > good idea and I forget? 616 - > If you forget, it wasn't that good of an idea. 617 - > Cut the rope and move on. 618 - > But that's the purpose of the 15 minutes is to focus on the first 619 - > 15.

620 - > Second 15, remember, I need 30. 621 - > The second 15 is you write out, you pick the one thing that you 622 - > think is gonna have the biggest impact, and you write out the 623 - > things you're gonna do over the next week, days, months to 624 - > execute on whatever that is. 625 - > Here's the hard part. 626 - > I did the easy part, I gave you the 30 minutes.

627 - > The hard part is you get a calendar that and then go do it. 628 - > But if you do it, you will make incremental improvement towards 629 - > whatever that goal is. 630 - > SPEAKER_00: It's so powerful. 631 - > I love it.

632 - > Thank you so much for sharing that. 633 - > Christopher, thank you so much for coming on the Accounting 634 - > Leads Now podcast. 635 - > This was amazing. 636 - > It was so great me and you at GrowCon.

637 - > I'm so glad we got to have so many conversations and joke and 638 - > go back and forth over the few days we're there. 639 - > I'm pumped to see you at the next event. 640 - > For those who want to continue the conversation with you, how 641 - > can they get in touch with you? 642 - > Where can they find you?

643 - > Where can they find your book? 644 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh, a couple of quick things. 645 - > Uh Papinspeaks.com has all kinds of support materials for 646 - > business owners, kind of the free hook, if you will, but lots 647 - > of good material out there.

648 - > If you look for my name, Chris Papen, P A P I N on LinkedIn, 649 - > that's another great way. 650 - > We push all kinds of stuff out there as legitimate free give 651 - > back resources. 652 - > Uh the books, either on Papin Speaks or on Amazon. 653 - > Um, my request would be because it's a brand new offering, if 654 - > you buy it, please review it.

655 - > Give us some good reviews. 656 - > We got to get over that hurdle so we can go do the next chapter 657 - > or whatever's in in the future for me there. 658 - > You advertising guys always have something I gotta go do. 659 - > But those those would be the easy ones.

660 - > That'll feed you back to firms, CPA law, whatever else that we 661 - > got going on if if need be. 662 - > SPEAKER_00: Awesome. 663 - > Everyone listening, please go do that. 664 - > Check check it out.

665 - > Christopher, again, thank you so much for coming on. 666 - > This was awesome. 667 - > Loved having you on the show. 668 - > SPEAKER_01: Same, man.

669 - > I appreciate you. 670 - > SPEAKER_00: That's a wrap on another episode of the 671 - > Accounting Leads Now podcast. 672 - > If you got something out of today's conversation, do me a 673 - > favor. 674 - > Hit subscribe so you never miss an episode and leave us a review 675 - > wherever you're listening.

676 - > It genuinely helps this show grow. 677 - > And the bigger this community gets, the better the 678 - > conversations we can bring you. 679 - > Now, here's the part I actually care about most. 680 - > If you're running a firm and you're still relying on word of 681 - > mouth to bring in new clients, I want you to hear this.

682 - > Referrals aren't a growth strategy. 683 - > I'll say that again. 684 - > Referrals are not a growth strategy. 685 - > They're a hope strategy.

686 - > If you're ready to stop hoping and start building a system that 687 - > brings qualified prospects to you consistently, go to 688 - > accountingleadsnow.com and book a call with my team. 689 - > We work exclusively with accounting, bookkeeping, and tax 690 - > firms. 691 - > We'll look at your situation specifically and tell you what 692 - > we would do if it was our firm on the line for bringing in new 693 - > clients.

694 - > And if you want to go deeper on your own first, I wrote a book 695 - > called Book Solid Digital Marketing Strategies that 696 - > actually work for accounting firms. 697 - > It's the digital marketing playbook built specifically for 698 - > accounting bookkeeping and tax firms. 699 - > Link to grab a copy is in the show notes. 700 - > Thanks again for listening, and we'll catch you on the next one.