Is Your Business Acting Its Age? Tina Dao on Escaping the Dependency Trap

Speaker A: This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability various 18 plus. Hey, everybody, and welcome to your next. I'm your host, Jerome. And very rarely do I talk to people in the same state as me. Very rarely do I talk to people who are focused on, um, liberating leaders from the dependency trap of their business. But today, you're in for a rare treat. I've realized now that I've never said Tina's last name. And it's a unique one. Only one syllable and I don't want to mess it up. So, Tina, how do we say your last name? Let's start there.

Speaker B: It is. Dao.

Speaker A: Like a stick, a rod.

Speaker B: So my husband is Vietnamese and it is Dao Dao, but it's pronounced like Daodeqing or any of the, the Asian spiritual books that you may be familiar with.

Speaker A: Does that mean you're spiritual?

Speaker B: I am spiritual.

Speaker A: Well, tell me more about that. Let's start off in the most unconventional way, because I bring that up, not because it's unrelated, but I think it's very much tied to why you're doing what you're doing. So I think for the people out there, they're curious. It's a part of you. So let's talk about that. What, what does spiritual mean for you?

Speaker B: So to me, it means the being in the now, being present and understanding the connection to each other and the universe. Um, in that quiet, then we can just be present and we can let the universe shine through us.

Speaker A: Let the universe shine through us. I've never heard anybody characterize it that way. Um, so I mentioned this pendency trap. I mentioned Liberated Leaders. Guys, this isn't going to be a traditional episode, but you. Absolutely. If you're a business owner, you better buckle up. Because she's thinking about business in a way that I haven't seen anybody else think about it. So you start a company called Liberated Leaders. What do you guys do? Like, why liberate it?

Speaker B: Well, interestingly, people from any stripe ask them, do you want to be liberated from anywhere? People are like, yeah. Yes. And what does liberation mean? There's a freedom, uh, to that which does not mean lack of responsibility or lack of connection. But this freedom to, um, be your best self and to um, we, we call ourselves success architects. And part of the reason for that, there are two major reasons. One is that we believe great organizations need the creativity of an artist and the success and the precision of an engineer. That's how you create great organizations of any type. The second is to be successful means to be present. So there's multiple layers of what that means to be. Presence is part of how you become free and you tap into joy. And, and so business ownership and entrepreneurship is one of the most challenging things that humans can do it. I mean, I grew up in corporations and every level, in every layer, you have to get more stripped down. Uh, you have to understand where you're going. And it still doesn't compare to being an entrepreneur, to being a business owner where everything's on your shoulders. So to get to a place of presence and building around you that you can feel liberated and joyful within that, um, versus a cage that. This is what we call the dependency trap. Uh, many business owners, they start a business because they want to do their own thing. They want to create something. They don't want to work for other people, but they find themselves in a few years trapped by this. They feel trapped. And so the key is how, uh, to have, raise that, that business to become, um, to from its infancy or wherever it is in its life cycle, to be independent and so that you can decide how you're going to interact and be part of the business or have it go on its way so that you can be liberated and do what it is you are meant to do in your life.

Speaker A: Okay, whoa. We got deep fast, so let me see if I can come up and then go back down. So you started Liberated Leaders because you've watched business owners get bogged down in their company, that they started in the pursuit of freedom, but ended up being a slave, for lack of a better term, to the business that they built. And so now you're going in and guiding them out of that prison by helping them mature their business to the place where it can operate free of them and the business owner can actually enjoy the freedom that they were pursuing.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: That's intense. Did you grow up in the home of an entrepreneur? Like, what, uh, got you interested in this?

Speaker B: I, I grew up serial entrepreneur. Uh, my grandparents were entrepreneurs. So I often tell people that I know what, how difficult it was, uh, how much effort. I was forgotten at school more than once, uh, because people were busy working and uh, in the Business. So I don't. I've never had some kind of romantic view of, um, entrepreneurship and business ownership, that it's all cashing in and getting to do whatever you want. Because it's actually not. It's very much the opposite in most cases.

Speaker A: Most entrepreneurs, most people who aspire to entrepreneurship don't know that to be the case. They see the social media highlights, they see the movies, they see all of the success. And you're talking about struggle, strain, grief.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: Where's. Why is there a disconnect?

Speaker B: Well, I think we do this in a lot of things, right? Our movies, our stories. We tell the glamorous parts of, uh, the hero's journey, the thing that happened at the end. A lot of times we don't tell the 10 years of struggle, the ramen noodles, the sold their car to make sure that they had enough Runway, uh, to keep their business running. Those things are not sexy. Um, or we glaze over them as if it was like it's in a montage almost. And we condense 10 years of struggle into 30 seconds. And then we have, you know, ah, a long time of showing all the success and what all of that brings, even success. Success brings a whole other set of struggles. Who do you trust? Are people. Do people. Are they. Do they care about you as a human or your position or your bank account? Are they just trying to get close enough to you so they can pick your pockets? There's a whole set of things all along the journey that really challenges every level of the human being.

Speaker A: So that means it's a spiritual journey.

Speaker B: It is a spiritual journey. And that. That is not something that a lot of times when you, when you go to conferences, we met a conference, you talk to a bunch of advisors and a bunch of professionals and, and whatnot. Most people don't talk about that. And they, they talk about what's your EBITDA and your value and all these things. But business owners, especially founder entrepreneurs, they have a relationship with their business. They often call it the baby that there's all different kinds of things. Their family call it, call it different things. There is a relationship and there is something that is much deeper than financials, um, or what your sales. And if people haven't done it, I think a lot of they miss it because it's very different than having a job where you're responsible for xyz. You are responsible for people's lives. Like my parents carry the weight of, um, we are. The decisions we make are not just our employees. It's their Families and there are 25 families with these kids and spouses. They are, they, they have some level of dependence on the decisions we. That's heavy.

Speaker A: And not only is it heavy, it raises the level of accountability for those who dreamed of whatever wild success that they dreamed of when they started this journey of becoming an entrepreneur and evangelizing the message of the company so that they could get people to participate in the journey with them. So the phrase the business is my baby, you've decided to challenge that. Can we talk about that a little?

Speaker B: I say, I say look at your baby. And if you're uh, a parent now, Jerome, I know you have a couple children, is that right?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So. So when you with those children, do you dream of them, um, being a 25 year old toddler?

Speaker A: Absolutely not.

Speaker B: Your job as a parent is for them to become independent human beings. You probably hope that you'll change from parenting to friendship at some point. Is that a fair. Like lots of people have that dream. Is that, is that consistent with your dream of being a parent or not?

Speaker A: You know, it's funny because dads are usually the playmate, right? So like you're kind of friend from the beginning, although you're teaching and guiding and I guess protecting. So there's uh, some of that there. What I aspire to is that they don't depend on me to be able to move through life. I want them empowered, I want them to have their own agency. I want them to uh, know what they're to do and then do it well without having to come to me for every decision or, or for me to have to initiate them doing what needs to be done.

Speaker B: So my challenge isn't so much of a challenge. It's. I love that when business owners have this great responsibility in terms of they're proud of something that they've birthed into the world. I just say what would you have to do to be a responsible parent? To be a responsible parent, you need to take them through the stages so that they can be independent. Same thing is for that business. Because it's not just a, uh, at the end of the day, it's not just about you. You created, but now you've created its own thing. It's its own thing. Things are dependent on. And uh, have believed it, just like you said you believed in. And they've put your customers, your suppliers, your employees, they've bought in in some way. So it needs to be able to fly on its own.

Speaker A: But it's my baby, like it's always gonna be My baby. Why? I guess I kind of get it now because I don't want to handicap it. But then what does that mean for my life? Right? Because people talk about being empty nesters and the depression or the sadness that they experience when the kids finally fly the coop. But I'm gonna do that with my business too. Like, what else would I do?

Speaker B: Well, that's when they. This is part of the whole thing of understanding business owners, that it's not just about all those things to help the business be independent. It's as a business owner, what are the things that you need to be able to do? How do you need to navigate through that transformation, that transition? Um, and even state, even with staying, keeping the business, even being an owner, but transitioning from, um, caretaking to becoming a coach, there are steps in between and, and navigating that and then starting to say, what are the other things in my life? Um, I was listening to one of your podcasts earlier today where you were talking to someone who was a serial, serial, serial entrepreneur. And like, as a, A lot of your guests, right, but even before one ended, they were starting another thing. So how do you, what are the, what are your dreams? What is the next dream? What is that next thing like? Um, also just like what happens in a marriage or any kind of a. When people are coupled up and they have children, a lot of times they need to be able to reconnect at some point in their relationship. The same thing happens with a business a lot of times as people get so engulfed that if they don't, if they don't have some energy to come back and reconnect with their family, with their partner, with whoever it is that they want to spend their life with, they could lose that. So there's work to do. And there are people like you who, who like, work one on one with, with founders especially, people need to figure out who, who, who fits them well, but they can work through that transition with.

Speaker A: So, uh, it's not just hold on to this because it keeps me comfortable and I shouldn't fear what's next because I can get the support I need to figure out what's next. You're literally doing the business a disservice if you are trying to force the interaction to stay the same as it did when you first started it.

Speaker B: Uh, right, absolutely, 100%. And here's the thing that is most alarming for me that I, A lot of times people, they don't realize that they're holding back the growth. A lot of times for my dad, he ended up selling his most successful business but it was not at uh, at ah, peak value by any means because he had gotten to a point that he was like, this business is going to kill me because it was so dependent on him and he didn't know how to change that. He didn't know how to, how to move to the next level so it could be independent. And five years after the business was sold, it had gone under because you know, even though he stayed in a year overlap, it was uh, like it was still just too dependent on him. They didn't, they didn't have the magic sauce and it hadn't been taken throughout. So all those families ended up losing their job anyway or, you know, people ended up losing their job anyway. Um, and he didn't get as much as he thought he would. And at 70 he ended up being, you know, my parents ended up being financially dependent on me. So that was not his dream. And a lot of people when they're kind of like, but I just want to stay comfortable in this is what, this is what I know and that's what I've been doing for this amount of time. They're, they're putting themselves and their family at risk in a way that they don't even realize a lot of the time.

Speaker A: So by not allowing the business to grow up, I'm putting it at risk as well as the people who work for the company.

Speaker B: 100%. 50% of businesses shut down because of uh, debt, divorce, disability, disagreements, etc. So something happens and you haven't been prepared for it. 50% of them close down that way. Um, there's a whole other set that can never sell if they want. If they try to sell, um, because of whatever reason someone wants to sell, only 20 to 30% of them sell. So they end up going, going out. And most of the time what people are planning for, for their old age, I'm not even going to call it retirement because most entrepreneurs don't want to retire. They hate that. They're like, oh, uh, like I can't, I would, I don't want to retire. In your old age, you may want to work less, you may want to, whatever that is. But if you've been planning on your largest asset to support your old age and it just goes out, what's going to happen in your old age?

Speaker A: This is fascinating. So if I'm listening to this, I should understand that I'm at risk.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: Because exiting the business doesn't mean that I exit on my terms, 50% of those who exit, uh, exit because they're forced out, not because they chose to leave. And I'm hurting the value of the business because I continue to operate with it in the same way I did when I started it. Now is there an evolution? Like it's one thing for me to say that, but it's like there a uh, evolution of the way of interacting with the business. Like are there different phases or stages?

Speaker B: And there absolutely are. So we call it the business independence life cycle. And there are five life cycles and the interaction between the owner, uh, and each one of those life cycle stages is um, is different. So um, I don't know. On a podcast, I guess you can't really do a visual. Um, but we have, we've mapped it out uh, in terms of, in the first, at first your business is an infant, right? It's in infancy and you have to be a caretaker, right? You have to be a caregiver. You're there with it all the time. The next stage is that the business is a, is a you, right? It says I can do it myself until I can. Uh, so, so you're an overseer. You have to be there a lot. This is a place where people get stuck. A lot is in this overseer because it's not quite as, as much as an infant. They have employees, they have some people, right, but that it gets stuck there. Then, then it goes to adolescents and adolescents. It wants freedom, but it still needs guardrail. So the owner is a guide. They usually are still doing a lot of the strategic direction. A lot of the day to day operations can start to run on its own. But they're the ones who are guiding the uh, giving the guardrails and guiding the ship, making sure there's accountability measures in place, etc. Um, but adulthood is when, when it starts to get really fun because it really can start to stand on its own. And the business owner gets to be a coach. So they get to kind of pick and where are they really good. Right? Like a lot of it depends on when I worked in tech, a lot of the founders were like product managers at heart. So, so you know, they get to go and start to dream up maybe some kind of new product. Other people like, they are amazing with relationships, whatever that is. You get to kind of spend your time and then really coach people. Uh, and the final stage is that independence, right? You can really completely thrive on its own. And the business owner is liberated. They have all the options available to them. They can show up every once In a while, they can decide to go ahead and exit. Um, they can transition to management, employee, sales, family, whatever it is. They just have all the options in the world available to them.

Speaker A: And those options, I think, is what people wanted from the beginning.

Speaker B: Exactly. They wanted freedom. Uh, they wanted options. They wanted joy. They wanted to be liberated.

Speaker A: So how did we end up in this space of being in bondage? Like, seems like we started a thing, we knew what we wanted, then we created a thing that we didn't want, and now we're trapped. But we still know the thing that we want, but we're just not engaging with our bas baby in the right way to get them out of diapers. Like, how did we get stuck there?

Speaker B: Well, I. I think we. A lot of times people get it, depend. Different people have different reasons because they get what I have seen, the most common and what I have experienced myself. Is it like a very deep root. There's a sense of pride, right? Of, uh, I can do this. I should know. Um, look, what I've already built. Whatever those things are, that pride is what will hold us back. So. So now, Jerome, we're getting back to the whole spiritual sense, right? Because pride is, you know, in. In pretty much any kind of spiritual walk or spiritual, um, teaching or philosophical or anything else. Pride is a thing that we are warned about universally, pretty much. And it is the thing. You have to have some gumption to want to go and start a business, and you have to have a lot of gumption and grit to stick with it. I mean, most businesses shut down three. Three years or less. Uh, like, it's over 90% the number. So, you know, you have to have some of that. But there's always a. A light and a dark to everything, Right? Uh, or a. So part of that, part of kind of the shadow of those grit is it can sometimes come with that pride. And. And do people that. And mistrust. Do people actually care about me? Are they trying to swindle me? That's what I have found.

Speaker A: So it's that they don't know who to trust. Yeah, it's above their training, knowledge, capacity, skill set. There's some pride about knowing how to take care of your baby. Right. And then, like, there's this other piece of. I'll just figure I'm smart, capable, I can figure it out.

Speaker B: Yep, absolutely.

Speaker A: And I would also probably offer that nobody's ever explained it this way, so they might not even be aware that the relationship changes because the business grows and evolves or develops into the Next iteration or the new phase? You know, we've talked about the eight axis of affairs founder, but we haven't explicitly said, hey, the business is changing and your role or your relationship with the business is changing as a result of the maturity of the business. In fact, I don't think I've ever really heard anybody talk about the maturity of a business before. Um, what is the, what's kind of the impetus for this? Like, was it just hearing people talk about the business being their baby? Like how did you like put the, the concept together?

Speaker B: So interestingly, because of my corporate background, I worked in everything from startup to Fortune one. Uh, and I was part of, of um, some very fast scaling what we would call hockey stick growth organizations. So I developed, you know, I ended up having this. It started as a theory and then it came like, no, this is, this is, this is actually what happens. Um, where I would see a company has, um, there's a spectrum of maturity, you know, from when it really first starts up to something that is very mature, very established, including an industry. And I got, I, because of a lot of the companies I was in, I did a lot of hiring. It was part of a lot of hiring. And so I got to where I would explain to people, we need to see where we are on this maturity spectrum. Right. And what we need to hire for. We need to realize that if we're in a fast growth, we need people who are comfortable. Not only their skill set but their personality is comfortable. And uh, the part of the maturity curve that we're in, uh, enough. But they want, they're most comfortable in a little bit forward of that because that's what helps propel you forward. And we have to realize they're going to be people who are going to end up deciding that they want to leave because it just doesn't, it's gotten too big for them. Uh, so I have that in running large organizations. And then I worked with enough founders and seeing my parents and really contemplating as I started Liberated Leaders. It was after my father died, uh, or at least passed from this earth. He's with me every day, but he passed from his physical body past. Um, and I really started thinking about who did I want to work with, who did I want to serve with? Liberated Leaders. And I decided private business owners, people like us, people who really really cared. And then I started putting these pieces together of uh, what I learned from all of this corporate background and this kind of spectrum. And then looking at, well, what about the business owners and even comparing with my Parents and then meeting local business owners and, and, and I was like oh no, I could, I, I can, I can put this in a way that people can understand. I have seven nieces and nephews, right. And seeing them, them grow, I'm like everybody can understand, everyone can understand wanting independent, independent children. We need independent businesses and the relationship of those owners. So it was a combination of my whole life that, that pulled that and um, they was able to say like no, we need to, we need to help people understand this. Wow.

Speaker A: So you've taken your life's work, combined it with your unique experiences both personally and professionally and crafted a model that captures the experience of the small business owner which allows them to take advantage of experience from startup to Fortune 1 and ah, use it in order to increase the value of their business, create flexibility, freedom and enjoyment for them in their lives and de risk the business from failure on the backside of a force decks. It seems pretty special to me.

Speaker B: I'm, I'm very excited about it. I'm very, I think about uh, you know one of our, one of the business owners we work with who has had a business for 30 years. It took, it took a couple years by the way seriously like two years to gain, to gain enough trust with her for her to be. Because she was kind of like why, why would you want to help me? And actually started to hear my father's story more. But to see that uh, her growth and her going like oh my gosh, like all of the uh, has a dream and also knows she can text me and say okay, I can you give me a couple mindset exercises so I don't get in the weeds. I mean in, in six months to be able, after 30 years of a business to, to be able to go, I have this really big dream now and I know you care enough about me, you got my back and I can be vulnerable and say can you help me with a couple of things because I'm getting stuck. That's really, that's amazing.

Speaker A: I think amazing is uh, an understatement Tina. For the people out there who are listening and they want to I guess find out about their relationship with their business or learn more about you. Like do you have anything that maybe we could give them to help them get some insight?

Speaker B: 100%. So liberated leaders.com um, have developed uh, a diagnostic, a free diagnostic, uh, so that you can go and even see is your business acting its age? Is your business acting its age? And uh, I'm happy to go through it with you. Get your get so that you can see. Well, where. Where is. Where am I stuck? Maybe a lot of times people don't realize they're stuck in certain places until they start to see it and. And then they start to see it themselves. So. LiberatedLeaders.com, you've got the diagnostic. You can always contact me as well. I'm happy to meet with business owners and help them see if their business is acting their age.

Speaker A: Guys, the diagnostic is fabulous. Uh, I've done it. It will open your eyes. And if you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend everything's okay, then you probably shouldn't go. But if you're curious and at the minimum, you know that some things aren't performing or your business isn't acting it's age, then this can only help. And it's complimentary. Um, the way I like to wrap up these episodes is by asking one final question, because I think we've covered a ton of ground. From your experience to your thoughts on business, operation and leadership, to your dad's story, to nieces and nephews, what's the one thing. What's the one takeaway you want listeners to take away from this episode?

Speaker B: You don't have to do this alone.

Speaker A: That gave me chills because so many people talk about it being lonely at the top, and you're on this journey alone as an entrepreneur, and you're saying, nope, there are people out there that'll help you if you're willing to raise your hand.

Speaker B: Yeah. And that really care about you.

Speaker A: In a world that seems to be getting colder and crueler, having somebody on the team that cares, I think is one of the most valuable things you. You can have. So with that said, Tina, thank you so much for being you, doing your spiritual work on the world, and helping founders become liberated from their company.

Speaker B: Thank you for having me.

Speaker A: To our, uh, listeners, your dreams should be real. We'll catch you on the next episode.