Fuel Security, EVs and Solar Batteries: What Australia Must Do Next

When there's no diesel fuel coming to the country, right, we are on a war footing. A national framework where we say our strategic reserve is 32 days and we will house it in the United States is an abrogation of responsibility of successive Australian governments. The rules are written specifically so that power companies do not go bust. I went very deep into the EV industry in China.

And the truth is China owns the global automotive industry. It's just that the rest of the world don't know it yet. They have formed the view that anything to do with environmental action is just communists. And there's one thing about the Chinese system.

It might get you a start to get going, but it is presented by Your Energy Answers. Today we have somebody that can give us the whole windscreen wiper view of the whole solar, battery, energy industry, John Grives. Who better than the head of the Smart Energy Council? And I think there's some changes happening right now that John can also explain to be here today in the middle of an energy crisis.

Welcome, John, to the Why Year Podcast. Marcus, delighted to be here. Okay. Now, um, you just arrived here uh from the airport.

Lucky there was a bit of fuel still left, was it? Yeah, I I I'm I I I'm worried. I don't know if people have really cottoned on to just how profound this thing could be. You know, if you think about aviation, transportation, food, transportation, health.

Um, so I think we're in a really critical moment right at this point, and what happens next is going to be decisive. Right, right. So we just made a video where we actually say that in the olden days in the 1970s, let's say we had the last oil crisis, I'm still old enough to remember. Um and whole of Germany basically stood still, trucks couldn't go and everything, and you know, luckily went to the local butcher to kind of still find some meat.

That's how bad it was. We couldn't really drive much because the little electric cars at the time were like little golf buggies. But now we've got an alternative. Is this whole thing potentially the beginning at the end of the petrol car in the sense that people go, hang on, I actually got an alternative and a choice, and they're actually looking at it more seriously?

I think it's not just this crisis, it's been a trend of things that have happened, including COVID actually, where people are much more interested in personal control. They actually want to control their own destiny. What better way to do it than get solar panels, a battery, an EV? All of a sudden you're in control of your energy future.

It's one of those things you can control. Everything else is outside of your control. And so I think that we're gonna see much more resilience, we're gonna see much more personal action, and governments that support that will probably, you know, uh do well. Those that oppose it want to keep you addicted to fossil fuels, are probably going to suffer the consequences.

Now, in order to get this discussion going a little bit, not to get you steamy, but I'm gonna be a little bit taking a petrol side just to see what you're saying, because truth, we can go with the EVs for the personal consumption, and actually looking at them myself at the moment. But these are my issues. The Chinese, I've got a friend of mine who bought an MG, and he's had a look, and there's definitely data going out of it a lot, so there is a concern. The Lexus's uh and the Toyotas and all that, I look at what the petrol car costs versus the EV, and I don't understand why I'm paying $20,000 extra.

So I'm looking at all these EVs, and there's always I haven't really found one where I kind of feel like I want to embrace them. So that's number one. But the second one is when it comes to the trucks and the farm machinery and all of that, yes, down the track there might be EV models coming, and there are already trucks on the road that are running EV. But I think I spoke to a guy who had a fleet that had 53 trucks.

I mean, it's when there's literally possibly hundreds of thousands in Australia. So can we really do right now, still without the diesel, without the petrol? Well, I I went very deep into the EV industry in China, you know, myself, to really see what's happening. And the truth is China owns the global automotive industry.

It's just that the rest of the world don't know it yet. Like just the range of vehicles, the quality of vehicles, the innovation, you know, is really uh unbelievably good. The value for money. So now in China, you you can buy a really great solid electric vehicle for about 10,000 US dollars.

Um, you know, I I work with people like CATL, the big battery manufacturer, who do the base. So all the battery and all the drivetrain is in the base, they sell that, and then you can build whatever car you want on top of it. So it's called the skateboard and the top hat, right? The the rest of the cars the top hat.

So that skateboard component, which is up to a thousand kilometers of range on a single charge, you know, fast charge batteries, EV motor, uh, suspension, steering wheel, they can produce and provide to the industry for about 10,000 US dollars a pop. So um the whole world is changing dramatically. Um, these these cars are better, they're easier to maintain, they're much cheaper to run. Uh, uh, and in terms of the comfort and innovation, it's extraordinary.

The the automotive industry has just rested on its laurels. It's basically done no innovation for about the last 40 years. You know, so the business model is produce uh a pretty poor efficiency motor and try and sweat that factory for as long as possible. That's what the Europeans have done, that's what the Japanese have done.

Um, and so this step change in innovation is super exciting. And I can tell you in China, it's not just the electrification of personal cars, it's the whole transportation fleet. Buses, trucks, light commercial, all the way down to two-wheelers and three-wheelers. So that the technology exists.

In Australia, we're gonna do a couple of things. We've got to make the charging infrastructure better. You know, if you don't have the charging infrastructure, you can't have the truck fleet. Uh and that's where we need to invest.

So But but also, I mean, we do have all these trucks that is possibly billions of dollars of infrastructure, and you can't really retrofit them. So don't they kind of need kind of a natural grow out? But there has to be a maybe somebody has to say one day from now on you only can buy electric trucks. I don't know if that's the way to start that transition, but otherwise people just sit there in what they used to.

I mean, and talk about the European innovation on the cars. I mean, you're not a hundred percent correct there because I used to have a tape deck and then it was a CD player, and now I can stream in my car. There were the innovations on the European cars. Indeed, that's right.

Yeah, yeah. Over 20 years. But seriously, I went to Germany, um, and normally you go back to Germany, I go every two years within my family, and there's just a general slight happiness, but goes close over to arrogance in the Germans in terms of their position in Europe. What's very different this time.

It's like somebody left the air out of their tyres. Um, I I took a term and train and two of them got cancelled, and I rang the guy that I was waiting for, and I said, uh, sorry, mate, I'll be an hour late, the two trains that get cancelled. He said, Welcome to Germany 2026. Yeah, right.

So the self-image is because the car industry was so much part of the German identity, and it's in Germany, they're still not driving the EVs, but the export's not going out in the numbers they did. And so and I don't think they have an answer. You know, um you talk about the the the innovation. You've got a great company, Daniel Blitley, who who you'd know as has got a startup trucking, electric trucking uh company, for example.

They'll succeed because they smash the economics of the thing. Um and you're right, all the trucks are going to change tomorrow. It's you know, but the the fleet is constantly being refreshed. So as they bring trucks on, if we can get the charging infrastructure.

I was with a company Illumina yesterday. They do off-grid and weak grid fast charging for heavy vehicle transport. So they can do up to a megawatt capacity, two charges into a truck at the same time. Um if we get the charging infrastructure in place, then that unlocks the opportunity.

But those that that want to stay wedded to you know their fossil fuels, well, that's great. They they become the Kodak of the future, right? So, you know, economics doesn't stand still. Uh those that respond to it and adapt are the winners, and and that's the system we live in.

Yeah, but I mean, what does this crisis right now does? I mean, I had again a theory in one of my videos that it wasn't all about Iran. This is actually looking where does China get its oil from? Happened to be a bit of Venezuela, happened to be before Russia, and happened to be Iran.

I mean, these are the main three sources. Is is this whole politics stuff just coincidence or is there a plan? Well, I I know I know someone who does have a plan, and that's China. Right.

Right. Because because they think in a 50-year time cycle and they're not subject to you know a three-year election process, right? So that just disrupts everything. China um strategically has positioned their economy, so they are they are the big winners from the transition in terms of solar, inverters, batteries, EVs, the whole ecosystem.

But they also think ahead. So they've stockpiled a whole bunch of fossil fuels, of critical minerals, a whole bunch of other uh elements. So I think that it actually shows that you do need national resilience, you do need a national plan. I think a uh a national framework where we say our strategic reserve is 32 days and we will house it in the United States is an abrogation of responsibility of successive Australian governments, right?

We we need to do better than that. But the great thing about our sector is we are the solution to this. You know, we are what powers, you know, um that that you know that that in a sense it's kind of like the US prepper mentality a bit, right? You know, that actually my home is my castle, and you can't get me if actually I control my my energy and I control my transportation.

You know, I'm gonna control everything, but that's a big part of it. Um I that's not a bad thing. I think people thinking about that in these times are probably thinking in a smart way. You know, I think there are people that have been driving EVs that were like, oh, you know, kind of there's a peer pressure thing.

Does everyone kind of get this? And today they're the smartest people on the road. Yeah, there's somebody coming past uh later in a half an hour, and they're giving us some stickers which says uh succolus uh succolent succulent, I can't pronounce the word, suckland Chinese wheels, which is from that mem where the guy got arrested for uh you know in his protesting because he was trying to have a succulent Chinese meal. I don't know if you I don't know if you've ever seen that little clip.

Uh and now somebody's turned it in succulent Chinese wheels. So they're actually leaning into that technology, they're becoming proud of it. Totally. You know, and and and and why wouldn't you be proud of it?

You know, and that's why Australia needs to to you know, we're a middle power. We need to choose the best of everything. We need to create our path which is uniquely Australian in our national interest. You know, that should be the job of our of our governments.

Aaron Powell But I mean I saw a couple of years ago a really funny clip when which was all about those uh 300 billion off submarines that we're buying uh to protect our coast, uh uh to keep the trade routes open. And the biggest threat at the time was it kind of was a comedy was China. That's right. So who you're protecting from, your biggest trading partner who's gonna be like that's right, exactly.

So you kind of I mean, but I mean China is you know they're they're now dominating. I can see Fronia's struggling in Australia. SMA just decided to go out. I mean, these old brands, which are European brands, and and stalwats in the past.

Totally. Go back five, ten years, and that was the industry. You know, I mean I know somebody who put a tattoo of a Fronia's on their thigh. Um, well known in the industry.

I mean, that's how much it got embraced. So my point is if somebody dominates it so smartly now, I mean I go through Bunnings, and you know what I think happened? Somebody with a notebook from China came and went through Bunnings and made a note of everything that we need to build our homes and our castles, and then went back and goes, we need to build all these stuff at half the price, and then we own the market. I mean, that's what seemed to have happened.

So if somebody has that kind of really strong dominance, do they then one day maybe exploit that and really screw us over it? I I think we should be clear-eyed. You know, we should be clear-eyed in all of our relationships. So, you know, I I I don't think I'm not someone who's a who's a cheerleader that says, you know, um, you know, it's one side or the other side.

As I said before, we need to to take an Australian-first approach, you know, a and a a a team Australia approach. Right. Um but if we're smart about this, we can chart a course that actually gets the benefit of really all sides. Okay.

And as a middle power, that's what Australia should be should be doing. I'll probably say something a little bit controversial here now, but I've always grew up in democracy, and you know, in the schools, we learned all about what happened in the Third Reich in Germany. You really to learned that you had to study Hitler's speeches and how the manipulation was going into it and all of that. So you've got a really antenna on there.

A lot of the Germans still now in school really taught a lot. But I'm completely baffled of what's happening right now because there's America bombing another country, taking out their leaders, and even if we don't like them, there are other leaders in the world in other countries that probably shouldn't like either, but but they're actually our allies. So they so the logic of what's happening right now and the way we're justifying it, when you take normally the stuff that we teach the kids, you know, do the right thing, be honest, don't manipulate, don't bully.

Shouldn't Australia maybe say, hang on, we don't really want this war. And it if if Canada does it, if Australia does it, if Spain does it, maybe at the end somebody realizes this is not a good idea. I and I see you there's pushback from a whole bunch of those middle powers. You know, the the UK is pushing back.

Europe's absolutely pushing back. You know, when when Yeah, but I mean the media on the front, maybe under the table in the diplomatic circles, they're all going, mate, not a good idea, find a way out. My stock market's gone down 15%, my petrol's gone up, my inflation's gone up, I'm not going to get re-elected. Please do whatever you can do.

I think that's happened under the table, but the media itself is not condemning it. Trevor Burrus, Jr. So look, I I think Australia's been complacent, right? Our cunning plan has been integrate ourselves so tightly into the U.

S. military, intelligence, diplomatic. Trevor Burrus, Jr. If they don't give us the update on the submarine or the new software.

It stops working. It's got its sink. And so that that's that's actually created a direct degree of complacency in our foreign policy um positioning. The truth is we are well-liked and well respected around the world.

You know, we we we are a standout democracy. People love Australia. People want to come to this country from all over the world. You know, we should be leveraging off those great relationships.

The fact that we do believe in a fair go, that we do believe in a democratic approach, that we are open to cultures from all around the world. We've we're a very accepting, inclusive community and people. And um if we leverage off that, now the problem has been it's been easy for us to ride on the coattails of just, well, you know, at the end of the day, you're not gonna do anything against us because we've got our big big brother here. Now, if that's a bit it's you know, is actually it's gonna create a more nuanced, a new a more sophisticated, a more intelligent foreign policy positioning.

I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think we need to regain more control. Um, we need to chart our own course. Uh of course, you know, we have uh uh you know strategic alliances which are important to us, and I'm not saying that we should trash those, but we shouldn't just be blind.

And I think in the past Australia has been blind. You know, we've been allowed We've been following every damn war that was around. Anyway, and I tell you what, that that Iraq debacle, you know, just you uh you know, you could have seen that coming. And the fact that we were all in the Afghanistan was much better.

I mean Afghanistan's hard, right? Because Afghanistan was actually the source of the of the problem in the first place. So there's probably a a much better argument for kind of an intervention. But the truth is But then we left it.

Well, that's right. And and and and the notion that you can impose your will on another country, right? You can you can invade it and control it and then impose your will is a fantasy. You know, pe people take their own actions.

And so and so that you know, uh military power has limited uh imp impact. Wouldn't it be better if we actually make friends, have common interests, actually, you know, create a win-win situation and partnerships? I mean, I would argue that the whole climate issue in the world actually having these conflicts and as a luxury that soon we can't afford anymore. Do you know?

I mean, um what I'm saying is from the CO2 out of the bombs, I mean, why can't the major powers of the world work together on what are the real issues? Because we kind of got ourselves into that pickle. The little petrol engine, I think Germany designed that one too, um, being so much multiplied. I mean, I'm I'm I'm hearing the numbers of what oil and diesel is being imported and the size of the tankers, and I'm going, oh my god, I mean, we think a couple of little solar systems go and make a difference when actually the industry the way it's running right now is still running the way it's been doing for the last ten years.

I mean, there's one thing with the lip service, but what happens in industry behind the scene, it's not ch has changed significantly. I'll say two things to that. To your first point, actually, sometimes catastrophe gives rise to something much better. You talked about World War II.

You know, in in the aftermath of World War I and World War II was a world order which is which has really benefited humankind, right? I mean the UN and all these. The UN and the Charter and human rights and kind of that that multilateral approach, you know, it's it's lifted development right around the world, right? And it and it's staved off major conflict for an unprecedented period of time.

So sometimes it's the worst things that happen that actually create the opportunity for the much better things to happen, that they wouldn't have happened without that. So you have to kind of take a longer-term view. Um in relation to being fatalistic about it, though, I I don't I don't necessarily agree. I I think that every solar paddle paddle matters.

I think every EV matters. I think it actually is a new sticker. Yeah. Right.

Every solar paddle matters, right? And and and you know, and you know, we we often think about the transition as being on the large scale, but that community-led rooftop revolution, which has been a uniquely Australian thing, individuals taking personal action for economic reasons primarily, has been transformative. We saw with the cheap owned battery program that you can turn on a program and in in eight months you can have almost 300,000 units installed, you know, almost five gigawatt hours of capacity, literally without without missing a beat.

That's because you activate that network of small businesses, of tradies, right? That army that's actually the heroes actually on people's roofs, you know, transitioning one house at a time. So in aggregate, it really does matter. And it certainly matters for the people who actually make the investment themselves.

They see their energy bill go from $2,000 a quarter for your for your electricity bill, right? To essentially nothing. Like it is, it is transformative. I can't think of another government program that has that kind of impact on people's lives.

And not just a one-off, oh, here's $200 to help you out with your power bill this quarter. But here's a here's a $2,000 saving per quarter for the next 20 years. Like it's uh it is unbelievably good. When going down that track and look, I I enjoy the benefit.

I've got a big solar system, I've got a big battery, and I think I'm in credit literally even in winter. But isn't it now time, and it's ironically that it's a Liberal government in Queensland has done it now, that we actually take into account the renters as well and find some kind of incentive for landlords to help their renters to get solar on those properties so that those people enjoy the benefits too. Because if you're a renter in the past, you're pretty well exposed. The electricity price is going up, you're watching it, but there's very little we don't even allow that balcony solar that they're doing in Europe now, and really it's not making that much of a difference, maybe in Australia a bit more.

But what's on the pipeline for renters in that whole space? Marcus, you and I both know that the the the least the the less you earn, the more likely you are to have solar on your roof. And that's because rich people just pay the bill, right? There's like just a lot of people.

No, no, that's true, but I mean there are poor people who haven't got a house. So what I'm saying is you're absolutely right. There is a segment of the market that that needs to be targeted. And so we should absolutely be creating those incentives, whether it's accelerated um depreciation, right?

Or some kind of write-off or some kind of tax credit or something else that kind of gives gives uh you know that makes that investment class even more attractive for a landlord, but provides a lasting benefit to the tenant. I mean, that's really the outcome that that we want. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Yeah.

I mean, we don't want the landlord then later on put the rent up because he's got solar now. No, that's right. It it if he's writing it off, then it's got to be fair about it. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

And and you know, and and also you know, social housing, you know, programs we actually roll this out, you know, uh finance it and actually give them a $0 down, but you know, backed by the government, uh amortize it over ten years or even longer, because if you're the landlord, you own the Public Housing Commission house, right? Then all of a sudden people could just take 30% of their power bill right on day one, right, and come come up with $0 down. You could do a national program where you get a consortium of of suppliers through someone like the Smarity Council, you could actually go and do 80,000, 100,000 hams in a coordinated way because you'd you'd literally be going sw street by street.

There's no sales cost. So actually the logistics of doing that really streamlined. We already do super cheap solar in this country. Imagine if you could if you could really harness it and do it at scale, you could transition.

The only thing is I've been there since 2006. We're kind of on a similar journey. And whenever I've seen those group buys, uh social housing kind of stuff, it's improved now because I think they had poor outcomes, but they always picked the cheapest and crappiest inverter and the lowest thing. That's thank God I now heard here they're gone Sun Grow and they're gone for the better stuff.

But in the early days, because these bureaucrats had no idea what is a good and a quality system, the social housing stuff usually got the biggest, crappiest panels and crappiest inverter put on, which wasn't really helping the industry because you want the better gear that lasts longer. The economics now are at a point where you can put on the premium kit that's going to give the best long-term value and it and it makes virtually no difference. You can amortize it over over the lifetime, right?

So but that's where you need someone like the Smart Energy Council as an independent body to say, we're going to do a panel selection here. We're going to do actual a proper tender evaluation, we're going to do a deep technical analysis. So we're not just going to buy on price, we're going to buy on that long-term outcome for the Because yeah exactly you spend a thousand bucks more and you get 15 grand more in income. It's better at the no-brainer, yeah.

All right. So we're we're kind of actually in violent agreement here on a lot of things. Now you have been to China more than once? I I think since 2009 I've been I've been just about except over COVID at least once a year, sometimes three or four times a year.

So I know China well. So we're talking over 40 times. I you know and I I've probably been to I don't know 50 or 60 panel manufacturers. I've probably been to um 30 odd batteries, inverters, EV, the whole ecosystem, you know, uh hydrogen manufacturers, a whole bunch of Well what are the changes in the last 15 years and what's your impression about this all?

I hear Rami from SolidUse was here and said sometimes the government literally build the whole factory, gives them the keys and says go for it. I mean is it like that? Look in in some places it absolutely is. And so they they have a national plan and so you know the government is there to to accelerate you know the uptake in this sector.

But there are people who take a risk as well, right? They actually put in a lot of money. I've seen a lot of my friends who who now you know I met they were they were young startup entrepreneurs in in 2009. Today they employ 5000 people.

They're listed on the on the on the on the Hong Kong stock exchange. They've done that through really hard work. And there's one thing about the Chinese system it might get you a start to get going but it is brutally competitive. Like if you're not if you're not awake you know earlier than the other guy he's going to eat your lunch.

You know and so and so there there is massive competitive pressure, innovative pressure like it's not a it's not a free ride like kind of oh here you go come back and you know tell us what I think Oh no no I can pick that I mean like right now they had the overcapacity where everybody was losing money. Well we were benefiting we were getting the solar panels very, very cheap but obviously from a sustainability point of view it sometimes can go from one and tip over to the other way is it?

Trevor Burrus It also means that Australia needs to pick its opportunities in terms of where it plays, right? So so mass produced at scale solar panels, that's a hard game, right? That's a hard game because you've got you know um factories that are producing in one year what Australia installs in solar you know in five years. That's right.

More you know in in a single year. One single factory got plenty. Economy of scale, right? You've got you've got kind of that so um the same with you know battery cells.

But Australians are great innovators. It was Australians who invented the solar technology that's commercialized today. It's Australians that do the power electronics that do the grid integration that do the battery management system that do the secure systems right? Cybersecurity and other elements.

Exactly right that's right. So so don't don't underestimate the role we can have I think the my criticism in the past is we haven't harnessed that great innovation and kept the value for Australia, right? We've given it away too easily I think we need to have a national plan that actually says no we are going to harness that. And if that means that we're going to we're going to partner with a solar panel manufacturer, a battery cell manufacturer from China who sets up a company here with you know um Australian participation maybe majority Australian ownership and our people inside learning about it, well that's a good thing, right?

So I don't think it has to be an eitheror this can be like actually finding elements for collaboration and partnership keeping a a a national interest in mind and going for it. Okay you're kind of giving me a question here because you were obviously uh pushing hard so anybody who's got a home battery and had the rebate um this young man had actually quite a bit to do with it lobbying for the industry and not just last year or so for an ongoing vision about the electrification but why didn't we then say okay I mean it's now seven billion bucks plus that we're going to spend and given that that's really not necessarily paying as much for the solar and the battery that still has to pay more we we're possibly package of $20 billion being spent on this.

So why didn't we kind of say year one on year two, fair enough bring your product in but by year three or four we need 15-20% of Australian local content. I I think that'd be a super smart thing to do. You know for for me it was opening the market and demonstrating what's possible. Marcus my my experience in life is people have no imagination.

You can see something that seemed so self-evident but until they actually see it in practice they're like oh and now when people talk about batteries they're like oh okay I get it right it it captures you solar in the day and lets you use it whenever you like right so it's kind of a no it's a no-brainer. So now is the time to be thinking about those improvements. I am an absolute supporter of that. Think about a process where you can actually bring strategic investment future made in Australia funds for manufacturing in Australia link to an outcome which is a which is a local made content component of the Amazon.

I mean we've got the lithium here we've got the metals here. Trevor Burrus why why wouldn't you do that? And I tell you other countries do do that. They think in a system type way and it doesn't take too many pieces to come together where we could do something quite transformative here.

Trevor Burrus But I mean the thing that kind of partly stops this with A I don't know how many lobbyists have a card to go to Parliament House and wine and dine. The three year cycle. Marcus you know I spend my time in in the corridors of Parliament House you live in Canberra and I'm and I'm I'm out I'm outpaced 20 to 1 right those those fossil fuel lobbyists right but but I tell you what I've got something on on my side that they don't have you're running you're wearing joggers and that is the people of Australia right?

And and we we have crystallized this as a political force and it's actually it's been interesting it's actually people right across the political spectrum. It's not just people from the left often it's people from the right look at our industry right our industry is small business people right naturally conservative people right and so but they see the benefit of this so it's a coalition of people who are driven by good things for Australia, good things for customers good things for business and that's why we prevail and we've turned it into a powerful political force because Marcus I tell you if you can't hurt them you don't matter they will roll over the top of you.

And what we've done is we've demonstrated that politically this issue is potent and if you want to take us on I'll see you at the ballot box. Ooh fighting words but I mean he's got a point because John Howard was never really a big hugger for solar so I mean you know when he was jogging about I wasn't a little panel there around there but he's the actual one who really in some way gave the industry the shot we needed with the $8,000 rebate for solar system. So and that was just not too far before an election.

So um so he actually realized that there are votes in that and with four million uh rooftop solar and most people get four three four people in the home so you're kind of affecting nearly 12 and a half fifteen million people there thereabouts isn't it? Like like this is just pure madness right these people are saying I've got a choice to actually help people with cost of living right the things actually keeping us up everybody up. For more than half the Australians. That's exactly right right but no no no I'm going to back the vested interests of the big fossil fuel companies right that is political madness.

Like what the what the what the heck that is the dumbest political calculation I've ever seen and while they continue to make that they will suffer politically because people just don't buy it Okay but I think people overall are pretty cranky because even Labour I mean they get in 30 something I mean the the Social Democrats in Germany and I always when I came to Australia I went to a supermarket and they had two brands of yogurts and four brands of cheese and I came from Germany where we had 20 yogurts and 20 cheeses like Australia.

Every valley had its own cheese right every cow had a different smile and I'm going oh my god this is a bit lame you know and then 10 years later of course we got it all. So I always think Australia is kind of in something a little bit behind. So I look at Europe and go oh this is what's happening. And so the social democrats in the German East so the Labour Party right now in one of the more right wing states that used to be the communist got five percent five percent labor in one of the states in Germany.

The Christian Democrats or the Liberals didn't do that much better either. They got about 18. So it seems to fracture more and more and more in little different tribes. So you're talking about coming together as a country I don't see it happening in politics and I think the three year political cycle doesn't help because on the first year they find their feet or their plans and make sure the corpus in the back gets all you know learns how which way the blint blows.

Second year they get a bit done so this is kind of Sharma's chance to kind of really do something in the budget. And from there on they're already swimming towards the next election. So Marcus you know I it was probably by about 2013 2014 you know and I'm flying back from China after having seen it and you think that you know what's happening in China is extraordinary because they play as a team. They actually play as a team.

Even the ecosystem outside of China, the Chinese companies collaborate, they help each other, there's a networking component and in China I think their their secret of success is that the distance between policy intent and implementation is frictionless. Right? I went to Baoding to visit Ying Li Solar, right? And I got stuck in traffic I was you know Beijing it took me five hours should have been an hour and a half right so I was a bit cranky by the time I got to what year was that?

That was uh that would have been about 2017 I reckon right um and uh and uh so I was complaining I said oh I've got to get the car back to Beijing I said well why don't you take the high speed train? High speed train. A year before there was no high speed train right now I could hop on the high speed train in Baoding um and and in in something like 25 minutes be in Beijing, right? Millimeter perfect you know engineering and it was built literally overnight.

43,000 kilometers of high speed train rail network in China today, right? And so you think about Australia we we think about a high speed train. It's in the planning for 40 years. Yeah no 43 years you just said 43,000 Ks I just thought oh 43 years.

And it's only gone to Newcastle mate. Yeah that's right. So and and so now now there are there are there are massive upsides to that. Now of course there are massive downsides because you don't want to be the bloke whose whose house or family farm is in the way of the high speed train load right so I'm not I'm I don't have I don't have rose coloured glasses that it's all upside.

But what I do say is if we don't take the mindset that this is about Team Australia, that we should be interested in improving the lives of our people, that should be the primary goal and objective. And I don't care where you come from in the political spectrum, you know, we have in our history had prime ministers and parties that have largely had the public interest at heart. You know, whether it's been from both sides of politics we need to reharness that this is a moment in time where we have limited resources.

It is an increasingly difficult and hostile world to make our way economically we're going to need to actually come together and do some things. And so that means just not not pulling down every idea, not just trying to point score because it the more time we spend fighting each other the the the further we fall behind. Yeah yeah I can see that but um yeah why don't you go to Parliament one day and do a speech at front see what happens the next day mate if you've seen the media about me they they pile on the right some of the the media is so I I get it.

I hear I hear your your performance at the National Press Club in front of the last uh election was very one-sided. I mean you weren't really a friend of Peter Dutton. Wouldn't you as an organization like the Smart Energy Council try to kind of be friends with everybody and sit in the middle and be a diplomat and all that or did you just kind of had a brain explosion and just that's it stuff it they had 20 years to get on site. I would actually blame in some way a little bit the Liberals and the backwards forwards of our energy policy and then rolling good old Malcolm for actually getting a bit higher electricity prices than what we need to because that uncertainty stuffed everybody up in terms of what we're going to be able to invest in.

But did you just kind of go and that say that's it or did you kind of had a bet with 10 grand on labor and you really want to make sure that you're getting your money back? Let me take you back to 2008. So I I I started this job in December 2008. By 2009 I'm like gee the the debate I mean it was a it was a Labour government at that time we we did a lot of work with the Liberal opposition the coalition opposition spent a lot of time with Greg Hunt.

Trevor Burrus That's not too bad. That's right yeah spent a lot of time with uh with uh with Greg Hunt for example and uh E McFarlane and others um and you know and and and I asked you I thought it's just they just haven't seen the numbers. They haven't seen the engineering they just haven't seen the projections on economics. So what you basically thought there was a penny that was stuck?

And it just it just needs another report right it just needs more facts. It just needs you know more logic and it's going to unstuck unstuck that thing right? The truth 40 up the top exactly right you know and and what quickly became apparent you know Abbott comes in the first thing he wants to do is abolish the renewable energy target right and what became apparent is oh these guys don't they're not interested that's not the game at play they have formed the view that anything to do with environmental action is just communists the Reds putting on a green coat right and masquerading as kind of being interested in in the environment.

But really you take that off and they're all red hearted. You're a watermelon mate. Yeah that's right exactly right that is that's the judgment that they made right and what they didn't take off. And when they smiled in your faces and all that and kind of pretended they were listening, they were really kind of timing and trying to get you out of the office really because there weren't there was never you never had a chance.

Trevor Burrus Not a chance in hell. I I actually I got thrown out of a couple of offices you know because uh I was just trying to put a different view and and you know I was a typical well no I didn't but I but I'll tell you let me tell you one story Marcus you know I I um uh we you know Abbott wants to abolish the renewable energy target so all support for rooftop solar gone all support for large-scale renewables gone you know EVs don't even think about it right that's not even in the in the distant horizon and uh we work we're trying to convince them they won't be convinced so the first thing that that Greg Hunt tried to do was get me sacked.

So he calls in the president of the Smart Energy Council and says you've got to you've got to sack this guy and he said for what? Right? So then it starts to heat up and we say we're gonna actually hold these community But hang on, hang on, hang. The Smart Energy Council is not run by the government.

These are the members out of the industry and the installer and all that. Good luck with that mate. They must have got you mixed up with the CEC That's very funny. So so there then we you know we we run these save solar community forums where we're activating you know seven eight hundred people in a local electorate now some of these electorates are only held by 500 votes right we've got we've got Labour and the Greens we've got you know anybody who wants to come on we invite the local member along they don't turn up you know so we're about to hold the first one of these and um uh Greg Hunt gets on ABC radio and he says John Grimes is an absolute failure of an industry leader.

Here is a man who says one thing in private another thing in public. He has no credibility right that's what he says about me ABC Radio Brisbane and and and I after that tirade I was sitting in a taxi downstairs I was a bit we got caught in traffic right getting to the studio I said look I'd really like to write a reply so I said no worries Mr Grice we'll put you through right so I didn't get on the radio and I say well well I'm really unsurprised to hear Minister Hunt say that because a couple of weeks ago he called me up it was about 10 o'clock at night oh minister and he tells me that if I don't call off this campaign that they're gonna attack me personally.

He says nobody likes to wake up in the morning and seeing that they've been attacked by the Prime Minister on the front page of the newspaper. But the Prime Minister was Tony Abbott was Tony Abbott you'd be possibly wearing the badge of honour exactly and so and so and so I so I said I I said so all that's happening is they're making good on their threats, right? But this isn't about me, right? It's about the future of renewable energy in this country.

It's about the young engineer who's just finished a degree in renewable energy engineering who the coalition says there's no future for you in our Australia. Right? It's about the small businesses about to lay off apprentices and staff. You know now the interesting thing is I mean you would have already gone to China many times before and you see that they are really building this up to a juggernaut.

Didn't you manage to get that information across to the Australian ministers? You know a the the the the business opportunity of the global trans transformation will be the largest transfer of wealth in human history. We want to we want to carve out a piece of that for Australia. That's always been our thesis and remains so and that's why I think you know that the the vision for future made in Australia to actually value add our minerals so we don't just dig up dirt, put it on a boat and send it overseas fat, dumb and happy right we actually do some value adding and that value adding is about embedding zero near zero marginal cost energy which is also carbon free which is actually what the whole world wants and needs is absolutely the right way to go.

But let's see John till we get kind of I mean we've luckily we stabilized a little bit here now with our prime ministers but before that I mean they hardly found their way through the lodge and they're already gone again in in in the last couple of years um to have that you really kind of it doesn't just happen you've got to create the engineers the workforce the electricians because what we're currently doing the biggest growth engine is we import from China cheap stuff, put it in the warehouse then sell them online or sell them through Kmart or whatever.

That's one part of the equation. And then the other one is we dig it up and you know we're getting not a bad price when BP BHP is involved and steel and all that but then we just ship it out. Because our own steel mills and the volume that we're generating and all of that it's it's very hard to go on to that next step. You'd really need the government to say that is fundamental policy for Australia.

I agree or a a world changing crisis. You know I pick up the the media today and I see that actually fuel getting through the Strait of Huel Moose is one thing but all of the world's urea which is the basis of all of our fertilizer also comes from fossil fuel. It's actually created in the Middle East. So fertilizer that feeds the world is also stuck.

It's not just oil that's stuck it's fertilizer. Well um if you if you make now now um hydrogen has some uses which are economic and make sense and others that don't right that it's a it's a pyramid. But one of the smartest things you could use renewable hydrogen for is to make renewable ammonia. Renewable ammonia is the basis of fertilizer.

I I get that because you could use all the solar energy and then I think you need water isn't in the water that's right exactly you can desalinate to get that water. Yeah yeah eventually you end up with fertilizer that is actually energy has zero embedded carbon. Yeah and and is energy that can be transported more easily that's exactly right. So I do actually I've I've spoken to guys into in with that already 15 years ago with their vision.

But but wouldn't it be great if the if the Australian government said we're gonna we're gonna build a 27 gigawatt solar and wind plant in the Pilbara of Western Australia, some of the best solar and wind resources in the world we're gonna harness um uh that that energy to actually create renewable renewable ammonia and then we're actually gonna send that to feed the world. Now that's a sort of nation building vision that would transform this country and would secure Australia's economic future.

Trevor Burrus But isn't Andrew Forrester's been trying that but he's finding technically it's not as easy and he's scaled back a bit what's the story there the problem isn't isn't isn't technical so there's nothing there's nothing that's that's speculative about actually doing this. It's really about the political will to actually make the investment. Now that's not just political will it's also a business case in terms of a company but I can tell you what um an energy crisis and a and a fertilizer crisis would sharpen the mind and maybe it's about moment in time to actually make these things happen.

Okay. But when we look at for example I had Brian Craighead here from Energy Renaissance. Do you know him personally? I don't know.

Right. So he raised $40 million to create an Australian battery okay and look there there were technical issues and this and that and he developed his way through forward and he applied for government funding with his $500 million to create a battery industry. They missed out because they weren't big enough. Then they went through that hurdle they applied again the next year and there was another reason.

So by the third year because the Bureaucrats are running this show and they have a different vision. The box has to be crossed. You know, if you haven't filled that box out down the bottom, you're out. Even so it was a great idea.

So, make a long story short, finally the money became available from the government in itself, and the company went bust seven days before. So here's the thing: it takes far, far too long to do these things. The government processes have the mindset that industry are scammers trying to denude the pack taxpayer of their valuable funds, right? And if you have that mindset, then the process that you set up is so exhaustive that the outcome that you have, that's inevitable as the outcome.

And so, you know, we we have um uh funds that that were supposed to be for reconstruction post-COVID, for example, that are completely unspent. We've got funds right across the ecosystem for for this sector. So um I I actually I I'm I'm highly critical of the way that many arena programs have been run, for example. I don't think there's nearly enough focus on timeliness.

We've got to act, we've got to actually take the mindset that we're gonna we're actually gonna harness the best minds, we're gonna do the due diligence, we're gonna put a program together, and then we're gonna fund it and make it happen. We actually need that strategic support, and it's time that that funding was unlocked and spent. Yeah, I suppose if you're a bureaucrat in Canberra, there doesn't seem to be much urgency. Sorry.

Sorry to generalize. I'm sure there's some hard-working bureaucrats, but when I worked in local government, I was always told, don't work so hard, mate, you make us look bad. But that was just my experience. I mean, like like you say, some really top-flight people.

Great people, right? But but but the the system has to start. Not much urgency, some of them. And and and I, you know, we're even their speed limit is only 40.

Mate, I can tell you when when when when there's no diesel fuel coming to the country, right, we are on a war footing, right? Forget the the the the climate crisis, but that also puts us on a war fitting. And and we need to start to behave like that's the case. So you think uh She'll be right doesn't apply this time?

It's it's just it's not gonna and and and she real she'll be right is great for the incumbents, right? They don't want anything to change. They don't want a transfer of wealth. Now, John is a bit like a kangaroo, you know, he hops around when he gets to Sydney, he's supposedly got four meetings all lined up, so we've only got about ten minutes left.

So I want to talk about the one last thing, really, which is I hear that you're finishing one role with the Smart Energy Council, but then I hear you're doing something else that involves the Pacific. Now, in terms of the climate crisis, I don't think there are any more people that think of it every day when the water is lapping a bit closer than people in the Pacific. So tell us about A, what's the change and what's the role, and what's your exposure in the Pacific and what you've experienced there.

Great. I I'm interested in impact. You know, I think we're alive for a short time. We're here to do things.

And and I the reason I've been in this industry for so long, it's almost 18 years in December, is because I feel like I personally have been able to contribute something to really have be impactful and actually um drive an outcome. Um The good news is that we're now we're actually got a political system that's actually definitely on the right path, needs to do, needs to go faster, needs new innovation, all that's true, but but is largely on the right path. So that existential crisis of Tony Abbott trying to close down the industry is no longer with us today.

Um don't be complacent, right? But it's, you know, but but that's that's the same. Well, Angus Taylor is in charge now. And what's the guy from the Nationals again, uh Kahneman?

And then uh uh one nation is coming through the through the door. So don't go to the body. They wouldn't all vote for you. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

No, that's right. Well, don't don't go to sleep, right? But but at the same time, if I lift my eyes up, right, against this, the Asia-Pacific is the source of the majority of human emissions, right? The carbon bomb being unleashed leashed on the world largely originates from the Asia-Pacific region.

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: You mean from uh China and Indonesia? And Indonesia and Australia, the coal that we're exporting. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Right, right. So it's like it's like it's it that that is that is where the the majority of human emissions come from. It's also the source of the of the solutions to climate change. It's where the innovation, the products.

Trevor Burrus, Jr. So Pacific, we're not talking a couple of Tonga and Fiji and all that. We're talking the big Asia-Pacific. Asia Pacific.

I saw you somewhere in a t in a canoe. Yeah, right. Well that that's part of it, right? It's totally part of it.

I hope to. My penny dropped. Yeah, right. There you go.

Wow, that's a big one. That's a big one. So if we don't if we don't accelerate the deployment in the Asia-Pacific region and unlock green deals at scale, then we're cooked. And so I think personally, where can I play the most impactful role in the next phase of my career?

I've still got an adventure in me, and uh and that's where I go. I'm uh you know, I'm I I grew up, I was born in Papua New Guinea, I've lived in the region in Burma, in Japan, uh long term, uh, you know, spent a lot of time in India, uh uh obviously China, uh a bunch of other countries. Um I was a diplomat for part of my career, so I actually worked for the federal government and worked in Australian embassies overseas. Um so I'm definitely an inter internationalist.

Um I I've been, you know, I'm I'm humbled to have been elected as the chair-elect of the Global Solar Council. This is the peak industry body for the global solar and energy storage industries. And so I'll take on that role for 2027 and 2028. And so um I think with that profile and background and and a and a track record of success and impact in Australia, if we can take that in terms of policy learnings, what did we learn about um, you know, how to how to construct a program that's hugely successful, like the cheap owned battery program, like, you know, whatever it is, you know, um our reverse, you know, auctions, our certificates for large scale, um, how do you manage a grid that transitions to high levels of variable renewable energy?

If you'd said in South Australia, I had those discussions with engineers 15 years ago, they told me if we get to 20% renewable variable renewable energy, the system will fall over. There are parts of the year today where the entire South Australian economy is run on rooftop solar alone, right? Not even the big solar and wind farms, right? And so and so if I can if I can accelerate that in the Asia Pacific region at a policy level, at a political level, at an industry level, if I can build capacity and we can accelerate the transition, then that'll be a a good day's work.

Wow, wow, wow. I want to finish it with one little question where I feel we as solar owners could have been dripped off. So I remember having a talk with the Labour minister who was involved in giving us a 60 cent feed-in tariff. I mean, the industry at the time only asked for 30 or 40.

And I asked him personally, and I know him well at the time, he told me the facts. Why did you go so high? And he said, Well, we knew it wasn't sustainable, so the barrier of foul would have to change it and get all the bad publicity for it. That's how politics is played in Australia, it's not a team sport.

But we were at one stage at 60 cent feed-in tariff. And then would you agree that solar kind of went pretty well step by step? I mean, you could have put a ruler there and predicted where it's going, but we never put the batteries in. And I know the technology wasn't there that much, but homeowners, I nearly wonder if there's a class action possible against all the distributor and the energy retail and the policy people for not building it robust enough to take our solar, and now you've got to curtail people and cut them off and all that.

What were all the planners doing? Were they asleep at the wheel? They didn't realize solar is getting that big. Why didn't we build the storage capacity 10 years ago so the solar owner now don't just get a measly two or three cents for their feed-in tariff, but they get a decent price?

Last point about that angle, of course, now because they're getting the crappy price, they're all into batteries. So maybe it has a silver lining. But you must have seen that happen. How come we got ourselves ripped off?

Because when I bought it, I expected 20 cents. I didn't realize it would only last for a couple of years. It's the design of the energy market and the energy system. The rules are written specifically so that power companies do not go bust.

And the incentive is for power companies to demonstrate, oh, we've got to make a greater investment over here because there's stress on the market. That's that's where that whole gold plating of the of the transmission and distribution network came from. Because the only way that you increase your because you've got a you've got a guaranteed rate of return. It's it's the best business in the world, right?

You spend a dollar, you've got a guaranteed profit coming back on that dollar. Can we rewrite that contract? Well, we totally should. We need to absolutely dismantle and reconstruct the energy system.

At the moment, absolutely agree. The energy companies are at the centre. So what's good for the energy company is the thing that drives the whole the whole process. Can we put the consumer in the Oh imagine that?

How what an outrageous idea, mate, right? Trevor Burrus, I mean, you know what really annoys me? With all the renewables can make the electricity so cheap now, but whoever is the last one that comes to the table with the high cost being the gas, everybody else gets that kind of money. That doesn't help inflation.

No, it does not. And and uh and so we've got to put the consumer first. So I want I want sustainable power, accessible, I want it to be reliable, I want it to be as cheap as possible, and I want it to be low emissions. And that should be the that should be the the criteria that then drives every other decision in this in the system.

And I'm sorry if some of these and look, that 90% of them are foreign-owned, right? All these all these big power companies. If Mr. Chi-Cing owns one, you know, if and so and so great name when you make a lot of money out of Australia overseas from Hong Kong, Mr.

Chiching. And so, you know, if I I'm I'm sorry, you know, if if if that doesn't pan out for them as as they were hoping, well, that's too bad. Now, the truth is, of course, they make a tremendous amount of money. And the fossil fuel industry, the gas industry, and the coal industry, that that profit, uh have their tentacles deep into our political system, into our media, and to other things.

So so um don't be under an illusion that that this will be easy, but we have the people of Australia on our side. What I saw when we activated those those groups, 14 electorates around the country, is this was ordinary folks. These aren't highly political people. They were mums and dads, right?

And small business owners. They're the people to harness. If we can harness then, we can change the system, and we must. Well, that's uh that was a very exhausting podcast, John.

I think you spoke 90%, but I feel exhausted because there was a lot to take in. But really, I enjoyed that. It was very visionary. And wow, if you bring that uh energy to the Pacific, and last favor, can I have your freaking fly at Miles?

I I I read an article. I read it on the plane as I came came down. And by the way, you better offset with solar, that, all that flying. That's true, that's true.

Um, although I you know I hopefully I've done something to improve our situation. If you're in the balance of still in still in the balance of the biggest. Nevertheless, I uh it said um uh flying shortens your life, it ages you more quickly. And so uh I'm only 35.

Yeah, German sense of humor. All right, thank you so much, and I hope you enjoyed that. Come for the next podcast. Till next time, ciao.

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