We React to Viral (& worst) Workplace Videos - Part 1

Speaker A: Why have we normalized in the corporate workplace that it is just totally fine that we communicate in 20 different channels?

Speaker B: If you're in burnout phase, if you think you're going to remember all that shit, you're not. And it's going to push you further into burnout. Well, hello there. Business schedule. Friends ever sat in a meeting at work and thought, WTF is happening right now? You're not alone. I'm Jenny Lavy.

Speaker A: And I'm Sarah Burstyn.

Speaker B: As HR consultants, we've seen the best, the worst and absolute train wrecks of office life. And now we're here to share HR stories that have been kept in the vault.

Speaker A: You can think of us as your mostly unfiltered guides to navigating the chaos. There will be plenty of long rants, laughs, and hopefully a little bit of wisdom along the way.

Speaker B: Just remember, we're your consultants, not your lawyers. All right, let's dive into this week's topic. Well, hello there.

Speaker A: Well, hello. Happy Thursday afternoon.

Speaker B: I know I was talking to somebody earlier. I was like, wait, what day is this?

Speaker A: I know, I know. How long is it Friday yet?

Speaker B: At all?

Speaker A: Anywhere in there Friday?

Speaker B: I don't. And I have some weird, raspy thing happening with my voice, and I think it's because I'm exhausted.

Speaker A: And, you know, this is just what every person wants to hear. But, uh, you look a little tired.

Speaker B: I'm so tired right now. It's just a bunch of stuff going on. You know, like, obviously work is busy, but then also we're getting our kitchen completely torn apart right now. And so it's just been a little bit of madness. But it's all good. It will be fine. And I'll love it when it's done. Yes.

Speaker A: Yes. When is he supposed to be done?

Speaker B: Well, he hoped today, but I'm. I don't know how. I mean, if he does it today, I will be completely shocked, uh, because I think it'll take at least another day. But, I mean, he's doing a great job, but it's just. It's a lot. So. So everything is in. Like, you'll appreciate this. Now we can't use the kitchen at all. Last week when we were like, you know, starting the project, it was funny. Cause I'd go, like to get a bowl or a spoon or something, and all of our drawers and things like that were in the dining room. So I'd like, go to the dining room, like, going to the most random places to get kitchen utensils. Be like, oh, wait, that one's by the tv. I have to go over there, you know, like, so ridiculous.

Speaker A: It's like camping in your own house. Right? Like, where is that thing?

Speaker B: I know. And actually Lori, my friend Lori, they did the whole interior of her house and they moved into an Airbnb for like a week. And I was like, huh, huh, that's interesting. I'm like, oh, that was so freaking smart.

Speaker A: Yeah. You're like, I get it now. I understand. Yeah.

Speaker B: So anyway, and I, as I told you, I'm so hungry right now because I'm like, I don't want to eat out. And so I'm just like sitting here trying to figure out how I want to tackle that. And then you get to the point where you're so hungry that you can't think about what you even are hungry for. So, yeah, Sean's gonna be thrilled when he comes home.

Speaker A: I was gonna say he's gonna have a hangry, Jenny. And that's never a good. Exactly.

Speaker B: I know. Hangry. And it's like a billion degrees, so there you go. It's a good combo.

Speaker A: You should make him just bring food home. If I were you, I'd be like, don't walk in the door unless you have a sandwich in hand. And I can eat immediately before talking to you. Actually, yesterday when I got back from us, we worked in person together. Just so the listeners know, we worked in person together yesterday. And I walked in the door because. Oh, well, I didn't get to talk to you about this. The weather was so bad way home. But it took me like an hour to get home. Yeah. Because I was driving home in like a monsoon, basically.

Speaker B: Oh my gosh.

Speaker A: And so I ended up getting off the main roads and taking back roads home so I could go slow, all this stuff. But anyways, I walked in the door. Like the drive was stressful. I was hungry again, cuz I didn't end up walking back in until like 4:45.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: And uh, Tyler came out from his office and he's like, what are we doing? Or like, what's going on? I was like, I have to eat before I can talk to you. Just go somewhere else for now. Yeah, so anyways, there's that.

Speaker B: Okay, so not to be a topper, but listen to this. M. So we went to Highlands Ranch, which I told you, which is very far from us. It took over an hour, which there was like some stop and go, but I didn't eat there. I didn't eat anything. And they did have food out and I don't Know what my problem was? I just. I was like, I don't know. I was like, I'm not gonna eat anything. I'll just eat when we get home. Thinking we were gonna be home earlier than we were, we got home at 9:00pm oh, my gosh. And I was so hungry. And we ordered Chinese food on the way home. And so I started, like, eating. The second I walked in the do, Sean's like, oh, my God, you're halfway finished. And I'm like, dude, I haven't eaten since lunch. And then after we finish eating, he looks at me and he goes, my car. He had left it at the parking ride because I picked him up. And I was like, he goes, I either have to bike back to get it or I need you to take me. And I was like, I'm not moving. I am so tired right now. I was tired before I went. I'm like, I'm so tired right now. I'm like, can you go get it in the morning? He's like, I don't know if I want to leave it. I'm like, it'll be fine. So he did go this morning. Thank God.

Speaker A: Oh, good, good.

Speaker B: But, yeah, it was like, oh, we're not going back out. Like, I am not leaving this house.

Speaker A: Yeah, you're like, really hate to break it to you, but that was a fatal error you made on the way home.

Speaker B: I mean, I got home, I put my pajamas on, I ate, and I was like.

Speaker C: And.

Speaker B: And then I went to bed, like, literally half an hour later.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure, for sure.

Speaker B: So, yeah, it's been one of those kind of weeks, you know?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I get it, I get it.

Speaker B: So do you want to introduce our topic?

Speaker A: Well, I was gonna say, so the listener knows. We've received feedback that our intros are slightly too lengthy. And we get it, we hear you. So we're gonna try to cut them down.

Speaker B: I was watching the clock, Sarah. I was like, we didn't get to six minutes. We're good. I know.

Speaker A: I was like, we're gonna get yelled at again for talking about dumb things. But here we are, and nobody's really yelling at us. I'm saying that facetiously so that people know.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Okay. So we thought it would be interesting for the topic today, all of us. If you're a person who scrolls social media or LinkedIn, although I know that's also considered social media, but I always, like, that's an offshoot of. Anyways, if you are a person that scrolls social media and you are a working person. I would guarantee that once in a while you come across bosses, big names at big companies, I don't know, random influencers who are giving you advice on something that pertains to the workplace. Sometimes it's even HR professionals saying, you know, like, XYZ know these things. I always think it's really funny. It's like the Dan Martells of the. The Gary Vanderchucks of the. Is that his name? Gary? Yeah, Gary V. Gary Vanderchuck. Uh, you may have listened to him give you advice on, like, what to do, not to do. Usually he's speaking, I feel like, to leaders or business owners. But anyways, you'll get a whole host of people who give you advice. And we thought sometimes those come across our desk and we're like, oh, my gosh, can you believe this moron? Um, said this thing? This is so not true. Or it's really inappropriate, or it doesn't work, you know, whatever it might be. And then sometimes we get stuff, and I can honestly say I'll look at it and think, I never thought about it that way. That's actually really interesting advice to be giving out. And so I can appreciate both sides of the coin. And so we thought we would just do some reactions in real time to some videos that we've recently been sending back and forth to each other and just see what our take is on the advice that these people are offering to the broader public. Did I describe that well enough?

Speaker B: Yes. And I just laugh because I'm like, wow, we sound so fun. We send each other HR videos.

Speaker A: Well, they're not even HR videos. Uh, most of the time there's these random people, but, yeah, don't make us sound lame. We're cool people, okay?

Speaker B: We're fun. Promise.

Speaker A: If you have to tell people you're fun, you're probably not that fun.

Speaker B: But that's okay.

Speaker A: I know exactly. I'm admittedly not that fun or funny. Jenny, you were fun and funny.

Speaker B: Yes, you are.

Speaker A: That's okay.

Speaker B: Yes, you are. I have fun with you.

Speaker A: Well, so that the listeners know what my strategy is, I just find extroverts as friends, and then they carry the weight of the relationship and making things funny and fun in that sense or, you know, getting me outside.

Speaker B: But anyways, okay, I'm your monkey.

Speaker A: You are. You're my monkey. But I do that with a lot of people. Like, I. I just have lots of extroverted friends because I am not that person. Anywho, okay, Our first video or our First Instagram. And I don't think that you watched this one recently, so I'm just gonna talk about it. She captions it as corporate noise. And it's this idea that we are just expected in the corporate workplace to be able to go from Slack to a team's chat, to a team's shared folder, to email, to a text message, to a voicemail that somebody sent you. And you are just supp to keep track of all of the different communication channels and who said what where and be able to find who put what where. And the example she used is she received an email back from her coworker and the coworker was like, per my email that I sent last week, she goes, you know, fair. That's fair. She did send me the email. But why have we normalized in the corporate workplace that it is just totally fine that we communicate in 20 different channels? And heaven forbid, or not even heaven forbid, but what in our right mind makes us think that if we are communicating, communicating in that many different avenues, that we are all going to understand what's happening and who said what and what the expectation is of us? Where did we all of a sudden normalize that that was okay? And if you aren't able to figure out, yeah, where did that come in? Or I don't remember that thing, that you are somehow failing at your job by not being able to connect 50 communication channels?

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Speaker B: Oh my God, that spoke to me. Did I send you that one? I think so, yeah. Okay. Because I was like, hallelujah, somebody finally said this. It drives me crazy. The other thing that really drives me nuts is we can now house documents in a billion different places too. I don't remember being super frustrated about this until our last employer. And for some reason I was like, there were so many places that things were saved that I really was struggling with that. And I remember even asking, is there Like a methodology I should be following. Like, are these things in here and these things in here? No, it's. There was like no rhyme or reason. You just basically spent a lot of time hunting for things. So when you're already like, very busy, the last thing you want to do is be hunting for a conversation, trying to remember where something is. Like that kind of stuff. And to your point, Sarah, the attention piece. Good God. You're like going back and forth. Dings everywhere, right? Going back and forth nonstop. Text message, teams, message, you know, whatever I am, tool, slack, whatever. And then email. It's just maddening.

Speaker A: Yeah, well. And I have to say, I've been able to maybe see both sides of something as it relates to a medical thing. Because I have to tell you, when I was at most organizations, I seem to be okay. This part, to be honest with you, does not bother me. I'm usually like, oh, yeah, I remember that. Jenny texts me about this. This wasn't in a team's channel or. That's right. This folder is stored there. That part has never affected me. I've always been fine at that. But I have to tell you, when I went through my thyroid cancer diagnosis, either because of the diagnosis or probably more like. Well, it was probably both. Also because my thyroid hormone was all over the. I had insane brain fog. When people say, oh, I have brain fog. If you've never had it, you don't understand what it means, how horrible it is. Yeah, you don't get it until you experience it. And that was my first time in particular, when I came back where I couldn't remember if I had had a conversation with somebody or I could remember that I had the conversation, but I couldn't for the life of. You tell you what they told me in that meeting. And usually I'm very good at being like, yep, I talked to this person. It was generally about these three things, or if I had a deliverable due from it, I was able to follow up. I just. I never had a problem with it until that happened. So then you think about not only is it just hard if. And I would even say if it's not your personality type or maybe how you organize things. Could you imagine just not only the medical aspect of this idea of how we store things, how they have no rhyme or reason to them, how they're not organized even very well most of the time, and then you just take into account individual differences. It was just interesting that she finally. I've never heard anybody else. I mean, you talk about it, but the Way she said it, I was like, oh, that does make sense. It's weird that we do these things in 20 different places and expect everybody

Speaker B: to just remember the brain fog thing. And that's probably when I started struggling. Honestly, it probably was that. But holy crap, I cannot remember. And if you're stressed or if you're in burnout phase, if you think you're gonna remember all that shit, you're not. And it's gonna push you further into burnout.

Speaker A: Yes, yes. And the point that you just made. Cause I. You said I made it, but I didn't really even think about it. And maybe. Cause I'm intentional. If I sit down to do deep work on something, if I have to sit down, focus on something, I will put my phone in another room. I put my stuff on do not disturb. I close my email box. I close teams. I actually don't have notifications. I do not turn on notifications on anything because it drives me crazy. Not to mention the amount of distraction it just brings from the 20 different communication Ch that we have going on. How are you expecting someone to stay on top of their work and communicate? And it really is up to you as a person to say, I'm shutting these things down. And I know you and I have talked where I'm like, hey, team, just so you know, I am not going to be available because I have to get something done and it is super distracting.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I will say, too. And I just had this conversation with someone and it was really interesting because we were recounting our experience. We worked together previously, and we were recounting our experience and talking about we really couldn't. And I know you say, yes, you could. We really couldn't turn those things off because if we missed something or if somebody could not get in touch with us, yes, we had a choice, but we would not have had a job if we did that. And so I find it insane to think that they have to be able to reach you at all hours, all times, whatever. For continued employment at some places, you know, it's just. Just crazy to think about, well, uh.

Speaker A: And just how unhealthy it sounds when you say it the way that you just said it. It sounds so unhealthy. It doesn't sound good for anybody. It doesn't sound good for the business, and it doesn't sound good for that individual person. Rationally. It doesn't. When you say it out loud, it hits so different than, oh, yeah, just be available 24 7. It's fine.

Speaker B: M. I Know.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Okay, go to the next one.

Speaker A: Okay. I'm gonna skip around. So we'll see which ones you remember. Don't remember, or if you haven't even seen some of these, I wann to one because honestly, it rubbed me the wrong way. So I wanna know what you're. We'll see.

Speaker B: I think I know. Okay, tell me. Cause now I'm excited. Cause I was like, I wonder what Sarah thought of this.

Speaker A: Well, maybe we'll see. It was a gal who says she's an HR professional.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: And she now owns her own business. But she says, I have been fired a lot in my career and honestly it's because I'm not afraid to stand up, uh, for what I believe is right. And I'm happy to stand al. And a lot of times she said her companies would say, well, you work for me, like you're there to protect me and the company. And she would simply say, no, my job is to protect the people basically, who get the stuff done within the business. The reason it rubbed me the wrong way initially, I'll be honest, is because I think that if you're really that person who's standing up for what you believe in. Right. I think that's great.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I have to bet that maybe you're not doing it in the most tactful way. If you can say on, uh, she was on a podcast. I think what I was watching. If you can honestly tell me you've been fired multiple times, I have a hard time with that. I think, yes, there's a time and a place to stand and there's another time and a place where I'm thinking, no, you're probably just really difficult to work with. I don't know what you thought.

Speaker B: I had the same feeling. I was like, oh, yeah, this is not because you are willing to stand up and you're willing to stand alone.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: I liked what she said about we are here to protect the people that, you know, make the organization run. And I also disagree with her because you are there to protect the business and the people. And then that's why this job is so hard because you are there to protect both. And you have to be looking through the lens of both parties when you are making decisions. So I agreed with you on that.

Speaker A: Yeah. I also 100% agree with what you said. I don't disagree with the part where she says they're there to protect the people who are doing the things. But you're also there, like you said, to protect the business. And frankly, what we talked about last time. You're there to protect yourself too.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: You're doing all the things all at one time and it is what makes it difficult. But her one sided opinion on it really I just found weird and I did not agree with her.

Speaker B: Well, and I also am, um, like you're going to be unemployable then that's why she has her own company. I mean, honestly then she's a consultant. And consultants, you have the ability to say that we do not operate that way, we do it differently. But as a consultant you can go in and say, well, this is what I think and you should do it this way and that's that. And they have the option to say we're not going to work with you or we are going to work with you. But uh, if you are an employee, you are being paid by the company. So you do have an obligation to take the company's stance into, you know, uh, into play as well as the people. And it's a balance and it's hard.

Speaker A: So yeah, I just imagined her as being a person who was starting a fire and then walking away from it and acting like she had no.

Speaker B: I don't know what happened.

Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know why they don't like me. I started a fire in the corner, but I don't know what do you mean? Because there was no tact or respect or kindness and how it gets done. Because I don't believe those two things are mutually exclusive. I really believe that you can say the hard thing and do it in a way that preserves your job in many cases. Again, you and I have also worked at a place where that was definitely not the case, but we've worked at lots of places where it is. So I just don't believe that.

Speaker B: Well, and also I will say too that usually you know very quickly if your voice is allowed to be heard and then you have to make a decision if you're okay with that or if you're not okay with that. Right? Yes. Uh, and so the fact that she wasn't able to be like this is not the kind of company that appreciates that and that's not the kind of company I want to work for and I'm going to self select out is also interesting to me.

Speaker A: Totally agree. Okay, I want to get your take on this one. It was a person. I think this was just a normal person. I think maybe it was a leader. I don't believe it was an HR partner or a business owner, but they were making the statement that or, or uh, they were asking the question, should you try to fix a toxic workplace? Should you try to be the person that's kind of standing there and trying to make things better? Maybe, if you will. If that's the best way to put it. And their argument was, life's too short, there's prob. Not going to be a lot that changes. If you're truly, truly in a toxic workplace, the energy that you're going to have to push out in order to get anything really to change or return is probably pretty minimal and you're going to drive yourself crazy in the process. So curious to see. I'll save my opinion for the end. I would love to know what you think about that.

Speaker B: Well, it's interesting because I have both choices in my life, right? Like I've chosen to stick it out and let's see how we can make this happen and you know, that kind of thing. And I will say I don't think it does change. And my fear would be that I would change and I wouldn't want that. Right. And so there was one situation where I worked for a company and it was a very difficult environment and people would throw each other under the bus to save their own skin all the time because that's the way it was designed. Right. And I remember coming home to Sean saying, this is what happens there and I will quit before I will do that. I don't want to do that. Like, that's just not the way I want to operate. And I did end up resigning after a year at that company. And when I resigned, the chro asked to meet with me and she's like, well, she was fairly new and I did love her, she was wonderful. And she said, I'm here now. I want to make the culture a place where everybody wants to be here. I'd really love it if you'd stay. And I said, I really respect you, I think you're going to do great things. I said, but it was like I think a 5,000 person company at the time. And I was like, I just don't feel like I can be here long enough to see that change happen. And so I left. So, uh, that's my opinion.

Speaker A: Yeah, I tend to agree with the stance of this person. I think that life is entirely too short to try to stick around if you're in a truly, truly toxic workplace. I'm not sure much is going to change. And to your point, I think maybe it will cause you to change. It might cause you to just go absolutely crazy. Who knows the impacts that it's going to have on you outside of the workplace. Who knows what type of impact it will have on your long term professional career. I just feel like in those instances, a lot of times you have a choice. And I know the argument could be, well, not everybody has the choice to just leave their job. And I'm not advocating for you to just up and quit tomorrow, but I am advocating for you to get your resume cleaned up. Because this idea that you can't find a job anywhere ever and that you're stuck in that same job for the rest of your life, that I don't, I don't subscribe to, I don't believe in, I think you have a choice to make there. Now, the one caveat that I might go off of is here. The one thing I would try to do, if you can, I would do it in a kind and respectful way is at least report the issues to the right channels if you can.

Speaker B: Don't just suffer in silence and get angry and resentful and then just quit and say, this is why I quit. And you've never told anybody anything.

Speaker A: And my argument for that, because I've had a friend to go through this, my argument for that is if everybody stays silent, then the one person who does report it does just look like, oh, you're just a complainer. This person already said you're not very good at your job. But, but the more and more people who come forward about an issue, a person, a thing, the more that pattern turns into something that the company can't quite deny, they can't quite cover up. It becomes more obvious. And I know in the moment it's easy to tell yourself, well, nothing's going to change, so I'm not going to do it, it's not worth it. But who knows who you might be saving later on down the line. And again, I know in some cases you have to preserve your own soul and just like put your head down where I can do it. But if you, even if you can do it on your way out, or if you can do it while you're still and looking for something else, I do still think it's worth it to report the concern. Yeah, say something to somebody. If, uh, they have an HR department, I would say it to hr. If it's just a business owner, say it to the business owner. Because over time it becomes really hard to deny those things. But the more people that just walk away and don't do anything about it, the worse and worse it's going to

Speaker B: get well, it's the same thing with an employee. Like, if they don't know they're doing a bad job, how are they supposed to fix it? And same thing with your employer. If they don't know that they're doing a bad job, how are they supposed to fix it? Sometimes they don't care. That's when you have a choice to make. Right. And to be fair, I agree with you. I was like, I don't want anybody to think that we're saying, just quit without another job, you're fine. You know, I had to look for another job, and I found another job and then I left. So it wasn't like I just up and left without anything. I had to apply for other positions.

Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, next one. And this. This isn't funny, but it is the text message you1. This is the one that you probably watched before you got on. Um, I. Because I immediately saw it come through, and I was like, I know where this is going, but. But it is essentially, I think this person was an HR person. Was he HR or a lawyer?

Speaker B: I thought he might be a lawyer.

Speaker A: Oh, he could have been a lawyer. Okay, well, anyways, it is him reviewing a bereavement leave situation. Basically, it's a text message between an employee and a boss. And the first text message comes in is basically like, hey, my grandmother passed away. I'm gonna need to be out of office next week. I'm gonna take bereavement leave through Monday through Friday so that I can attend to my family affairs. And I just love. Cause the. The lawyer, or whomever he is, comes back in and he's like, like, oh, no, I know where this is going. I wish these people could just be a good person. And I was like, yes, that's exactly the term. Just be a good person. When somebody requests bereavement leave. But instead, what happens is the boss is like, well, I'm not sure. Grandmother falls under immediate family members, so I don't know if it's a full five days. And then they're going back and forth where the employee is like, no, here's the policy, and a screenshot of the policy. And then the boss is like, well, can you be on this phone call? Because you're really the only one that runs the numbers. So anyways, what was maybe so comical about this is, how many times in your HR career has a leader done this and asked you, well, am I. Do I really have to let them take this time off? Or can I say something about this? Or can I ask for proof that the person died.

Speaker B: It reminds me of Ferris Bueller. Did you. You saw Ferris Bueller, didn't you?

Speaker A: Yes, yes.

Speaker B: Roll her old bones on in here, and I'll cough up your daughter. Like, seriously, people. Fourth, fifth, grandmother, we're gonna have a conversation, you know, but if they're truly the only person that can run the numbers and they can't be out for five days, then they need a big fat freaking raise is what they need.

Speaker A: Or you need to figure out that's a you problem. That's a business problem. If. Yeah, you don't have backup or double coverage on certain things. Yeah, a hundred percent. I just thought this was so comical because this has happened a million times in our careers, and I really do to the leaders want to be like, don't say it. Don't say it. Don't ask me what you're about to ask me. Just be a good person. Be a good human. Don't do it. And sure enough, well, can I ask for proof that the family member died? And honest to goodness, all I can think in my head is, what in the hell is wrong with you? This is really the hill you want to die on right now. And if this employee is such a problem, all I can think is, you probably have a million other reasons that you could write them up, talk to them, give them feedback, but we are not gonna touch this one. We are just not gonna do it. Walk away from me. Walk away.

Speaker B: Totally. This. This will not be the straw that broke the camel's back. Right? Like, that's not gonna happen.

Speaker A: I need to break it to you. Yeah, Forget it. Forget you ever had this conversation with me.

Speaker B: Are you gonna talk about the other one that the same lawyer did the compensation one.

Speaker A: Do that one.

Speaker B: Okay. So basically, he. It's like the employee messaging the manager saying, hey, we just hired somebody new. I'm training this person. I just found out, I think they. They were making $18,000 more than the person that's been there. Right. I'd like to talk about my compensation. And. And there's some back and forth. And the manager's like, well, this isn't the appropriate place to talk about it. Like, basically beating around the bush. Like, oh, well, uh, we should meet about this during your next one on one. And then it's like, oh, well, the review cycle. We can talk about it then. And, like, just pushing them off, pushing them off kind of thing. And the employee is like, well, no, this. I don't think it's fair that I am training this person and they're making $18,000 more than me. You're going to find this interesting. The thing I found the most fascinating about this whole thing was that the manager says to the employee, this isn't the appropriate place for us to be talking about this. Let's have a conversation. And the employee says, no, I think that we need to keep this in writing because the employee wanted to document it and the way the attorney said it and I don't know, I'll have to get your take on this. The way the attorney said it was like, good for you employee for keeping them putting this in writing. I actually did have a little bit of a rub with that. It's not that I don't think that this should be in writing, it's that I do think that it does warrant a conversation, like an actual conversation. And then you can follow it up in writing with per discussion, this is what was discussed, this is what your answer was. I'd like to revisit whatever that looks like. Right. But I don't want us to be replacing conversations with text messages back and forth because we're so terrified we're gonna have to produce documentation in court. Compensation is so tricky and when people give advice on it, I kind of automatically do a little bit of a cringe. So. And we can get into that if we're going to talk about the other compensation one that's on there. So anyway, that's what my thought was on that exchange.

Speaker A: It's interesting because I didn't uh, pick up on the same thing that you picked up on there, at least that last part around. No, I think, you know, I'm going to try to keep this in writing because I agree with you for two reasons. One, we would never tell a manager to say, oh, just start having a conversation about your employees performance via writing. We would never do that. We would always say, go have a conversation. It's going to be delicate, it's going to be hard. And then document that conversation after the fact in writing so that we just. We know what you said, who said it, when we said it, all those kinds of things. One, because they're hard conversations to have and it's impossible to communicate the empathy that you want to communicate in those moments via writing. And the same is true to your point with compensation. Compensation is a really delicate, meaningful, hard conversation to be having. And to think that you're going to get that over text message to me is absurd. And so if I was the leader in that situation where my employee says, hey, I was just talking to so and so who we just hired who I have four more years of experience then and they're making $20,000 more than me. I'd be as the leader, I hope my response would be, thank you for bringing this to my attention. I really appreciate it. Our next one on one is scheduled for next Wednesday. Let's go ahead and talk about this then.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: And even if they say back, well, I really want to do it in writing, great. We can document whatever we talk about in that meeting next week in writing. I'm happy to do that. We can sit together and draft that. So. So the leader got themselves, in my opinion in this text message thread, into a whole bunch of hot water because they violated a couple of legal things where the leader initially said, it is company practice that you are not allowed to talk about your compensation with other individuals. You should not be doing that. And the employee, again, this was probably mostly AI advice. I have to imagine the employee said, well, I'm pretty sure according to federal law I am allowed to talk about my compensation with other employees. So one, they did violate that. And I would say for anybody who's listening, if somebody has told you that you're not allowed to talk about your pay pay with your coworkers, that is illegal, they can't actually do that to you. And then they went further into saying things like, well, you were hired as a result of the market that was happening at the time and the market has shifted and so therefore, unfortunately, you just make less. And I did appreciate that the attorney was like, no, that's also not how that works. Market adjusts for everybody in the organization, not just for that new hire. Now, maybe that new hire did a great job at negotiating for themselves and that's one thing, but the concept that market doesn't apply to everybody. You would, the employer would lose so many people so fast if they really said, oh, we only do market adjustments for those new coming people who are coming in. Because you'd always have people who are way less experienced making way more, generally speaking, based off of what's happening in the employment market. So anyways, that annoyed me. But I appreciate your take on the, as an employee, don't do it. Don't start in writing. I don't think that's the right way to go. I guess if you want to put it down as initially putting them on notice that you have a concern and then say, can I schedule time with you, go for it. But trying to have a conversation like this via text message to me is completely inappropriate. And actually as a leader, I'd probably be put off if you did that.

Speaker B: Not to mention, and I think the manager did such a disservice to the whole thing by making it sound like, or I want to have a conversation, which made it sound shady instead of like, I want to have a conversation because I really care about this and I want us to have a conversation and talk about what your concerns are so we can look at things together. Right? Like, I don't know. I found that very interesting. I also, I have worked at companies where new hires do come in making more money and sometimes the company doesn't have the budget to bring everybody up to the market at one time. And so there's a plan in place to get people to where they need to be. And that is also a discussion that that manager should be able to have with that employee if they actually have a discussion. And then the again, the employee can decide, I'm not waiting around for that, I'm outta here. Or I get it. Like I get budgets, whatever, then you have a decision to make. But yeah, I thought that was interesting.

Speaker A: But that does dovetail well into another video that we watched where the girl is saying, basically if you're going in to ask for a raise at or around your performance evaluation time, what she did was she pulled a co worker of hers into a separate room essentially and was like, hey, I'm going in to ask for a raise because of X, Y, Z, but I don't know kind of what the cap is or, or what other people are placed with and tell me what you make. And initially the employee, you know, her friend, coworker, was like, I don't want to tell you. What do you mean? I don't want to tell you what I make. And she's like, no, no, no, you gotta do it, come on, tell me what you make. So the friend tells her what she makes, she goes into the office with her boss and she says, this is what I want. And the boss is like, okay, sure, I like, yeah, we can do that. Or maybe it was pre planned, maybe it wasn't, who knows, right? Well, from the boss's perspective, maybe he had some leeway on what he was gonna offer during this performance evaluation. But the caveat was that girl who asked for the raise is actually less experience girl who was in the role. So now they're going to be making the exact same. So then she goes back to her friend or her coworker, whatever want to call, and she goes, hey, just so you Know, they did. They gave me that promotion that were. That, um, salary increase. So you. Now you need to go in and you need to ask for your own salary increase, because you're more experienced than I am in and should be making more. So then that girl, you know, goes in and does the same thing. And so the girl's argument was, you should absolutely be talking about pay with your coworkers. And I had not from an HR perspective, I had a little bit of an aversion to this. And so I'm curious to see what you felt like.

Speaker B: I love it. I do think that people should be talking about their salary. I do think these should be conversations, because if I think we, uh. The rising tide, all boats rise. You know, I do think that these are conversations that should be had. And I know that that hasn't been our culture and people haven't talked about, here's what I make. Here's what you make. But if there's no way for us to. I'm thinking specifically about women.

Speaker A: I know, I know. I. Well, I also know exactly what situation you're probably thinking.

Speaker B: Yeah, there's no way for women and people who are different races, like minorities, to catch up with what white men are making, to be quite honest. And. And I know that that might sound. You know, I know DEI is a huge issue, but it is a proven issue that women and minorities make a hell of a lot less. Less. And that will never get fixed unless we're talking about that. And there have been laws put in place like the one that you just mentioned about. You cannot keep people from talking about their pay. These laws have been put in place to help eliminate that wage gap. So, anyway, I don't think we can say we're paying for performance, and then we are significantly paying high performers that are a different gender, different race. We're significantly underpaying them compared to a, uh, white male. And here's the other thing, though. If this woman walked in and said, I expect this raise, this is why I expect this raise. Her manager, if they're not willing to give it to her and it's because of performance or because of something, they need to have the balls to say, we're not seeing you performing at that level, and here's what we can do to get you there. Here are the things that I'm still missing. We've been talking about this in year one on one. Right. Or that person has four more years of experience than you do. That's why there's a different. A difference in that Compensation I always liked. You've heard me say this a billion times, but if everybody's pay was dropped on the floor, yeah, you need to be able to explain it. And it can't just be, well, they came in when the market was higher, or they're a white dude and they were making more before. You also can't ask what somebody made before. And this is exactly why. So anyway, I love it.

Speaker A: I love it as an outsider, as a person who would have to do it. I think it would make me cringe if I had to go up to you, like you and I working at another organization together, and I had to walk up to you and be like, hey, Jenny, tell me what you make so that I can go ask for their right raise. Something about it doesn't feel what good to me, and it doesn't feel, you

Speaker B: know, I'd tell you, though.

Speaker A: I know you would. But I also just wonder how much ego is sometimes in those conversations. I think maybe. I think that I don't believe that other people will be fully honest about what they're making or why they're making it.

Speaker B: Oh, you think they might inflate it?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think they would inflate it. Just to say, say I'm bigger, badder, better than you, because you're never gonna have a way of knowing exactly what I make.

Speaker B: You'll find out pretty fast, I suppose.

Speaker A: But then what's the boss supposed to do? Go back to you and say, no, that's not what that person makes? Because they wouldn't be able to do that. People are so petty.

Speaker B: And I mean, the boss could say, you may have received some misinformation. I don't know where you got that information, but it's not accurate. It is what it is.

Speaker A: I just wonder what it does to, like, the undercurrent if, uh, everyone is talking about their pay. I just wonder what it does under the surface of, uh, how easy it is to work with you after the fact. And maybe I say that because of the experience we had, it was really hard for me to continue to show up knowing that I had very similar experience, and if not in some instances, more relevant experience than certain people. And I was being paid again, according to what they told me, I was being paid a lot less. So maybe I just like the idea. What, what is the saying where it's the thing that you don't know, doesn't hurt you kind of thing? I don't know.

Speaker B: I have to tell you. And I would never ever weaponize this. I've actually had people that had access to systems that most people don't have access to, and they have weaponized them. I would never, ever weaponize that and say, I saw in the system this, this, that, this. So if I didn't hear it directly from that person, I wouldn't introduce that information. However, I was able to see all those salaries. And so I know what those people told me was spot on, you know, because I was the person managing that.

Speaker A: You know, that makes me think of the situation that you had, though, where somebody came to you who had access in a roundabout way and, you know, they shouldn't have been using that information for themselves. And they did. Like I said from the outsider, I can be like, yeah, girl, you get it. You get the raise that you deserve and you make what you should make and you get raises for everybody all around. And I don't know, I just wonder what that does at a, like, you know, heart level, underground level. I'm not sure.

Speaker B: We probably shouldn't take just one data point either. Like, if you've got three peers, ask three peers. Right. I would also be really surprised. I bet. My guess is a lot of the younger people, like, I bet my girls, I'll have to ask them, I bet they talk about it with their friends. I bet, like, what do you make? What do you make? What do you make? I bet they do.

Speaker A: I don't have a problem with it outside of the organization. That I think is totally legit. That I think is totally fine, and I absolutely have done that. But it's the direct peer going to your same level, same organization, same role, and saying, what do you make? Something about that feeling feels icky to me. And I get what you're saying. I think it is a good thing from a perspective of, again, we were in a very real situation where there was a male making significantly more money and I would say arguably way less experienced. And he was a good person, he was a good worker. I'm not saying he wasn't talented, skilled, no. But to your point of being able to go advocate for yourself and be like, help me understand why so and so is making so much more money than I am making. Again, from that perspective, I get it. And you're right, uh, women are less likely to negotiate during the salary exchange or they're going to negotiate less than a male typically would. And the same is true, I know, for minority individuals. So again, I'm not saying on the outside it looks good. And it's the reason I also like pay transparency from Colorado's perspective where on every job posting you have to put a salary range. And I do appreciate it. It saves everybody. I don't want to apply to a job that is outside of where I want to make money. And that is okay that that's what you want to offer, but simply not going to apply and waste your time and my time going through the process. So I love that.

Speaker B: It's funny because when I was thinking about if you're in a situation, so you're in your last company, right? And you're like, I don't feel comfortable asking my peers, but I do want to know what they make because I do want to know what I can ask for or what the range is. Then look at job postings because again, State of Colorado does publish those. And if your company has hired for your position, you can see them right there. You can also also see what other companies are doing as far as compensation. And there are a lot of websites like Indeed we just saw Indeed has a tool now. I definitely think you should use information inside your organization if you can, and you're obtaining it legally and ethically because different organizations pay different things. Right? And what you want to make sure of is that you're paid fairly compared to your peers and what the job pays. But that is an option if you don't feel comfortable.

Speaker A: I agree with that. I. I think that's great, great advice. We're already at 45 minutes, and I feel like we have so many more. We might want to be able to do another episode like this potentially.

Speaker B: Let's save the rest for part two. Okay.

Speaker A: I like that. Let's do it. Feels like a good note to end on.

Speaker B: Um, yeah, I think so too. And I know, Sarah, you always are really good about this, but the goal is to give you something tangible, whether you're a leader or whether you're an employee. And we want to give you guidance that is like, like, hey, like, you gotta take these things into consideration. Here's what we've seen in the past. Some of the stuff people say on social media is for shock value. It's not accurate. So if, uh, you think you can march into somebody's office and say, this person's making this. I want that. And they're going to give it to you. So I think I sent you. Even when you said that, uh, video, when I sent you the video clip, I was like, I love this. But it was buzzfeed, the company she worked for. I was like, buzzfeed, good for them. But most companies aren't going to do that. So you just need to know that, like, that's not the norm.

Speaker A: Or I thought that they might do it and then six months later they are going to figure out a way to get rid of you because they don't appreciate the way that you went about it. I thought that, too. Which isn't the right thing. I'm not saying that's the right thing to do. But I am saying, again, it goes back to that lady, right, who says, I've been fired from a lot of places. There is a way to do these things in a way that keeps your integrity intact, but also your reputation intact. So think about both of those things.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So, um. All right, so stay tuned for part two. That will be coming up and we'll see you next time.

Speaker A: Okay, bye.

Speaker B: Bye. Thanks for listening to WTF is Business Casual. If you've got a weird, wild or straight up WTF moment from work, we'd love to hear about it. So slide into our DMS at WTF is Business Casual on Instagram. If you love this podcast, we'd be so grateful if you could like like and subscribe. Leave a review and share it with your friends. A huge thank you to the team at Rise HR for making the show happen. I'm one of your hosts, Jenny, lately, and remember, if you can't fix it, at least laugh about it.