149 - It's Not You, It's Them: The Art of Being Tenacious and Not Giving Up

1 00:00:00,080 - > 00:00:02,080 SPEAKER_00: I think it also probably helps to have a 2 00:00:02,080 - > 00:00:04,879 creative mindset as well as a technical mindset because I 3 00:00:04,879 - > 00:00:08,720 think then you bring different approaches, different ways of 4 00:00:08,720 - > 00:00:12,560 thinking to using technology and maybe humanize it in a in a 5 00:00:12,560 - > 00:00:13,279 different way. 6 00:00:13,599 - > 00:00:16,000 Art itself actually had technical revolutions. 7 00:00:16,079 - > 00:00:19,039 So if you're studying the Renaissance, actually the 8 00:00:19,039 - > 00:00:23,199 introduction of perspective was seen as the huge technical kind 9 00:00:23,199 - > 00:00:24,640 of innovation of its time. 10 00:00:24,800 - > 00:00:28,879 So Giotto and some of those very early painters who started to 11 00:00:28,879 - > 00:00:32,719 paint, you know, in 3D, when we look at it now with AI and with 12 00:00:33,039 - > 00:00:35,679 virtual reality, we just think that's nothing. 13 00:00:35,920 - > 00:00:39,119 But it was absolutely groundbreaking at the time to 14 00:00:39,119 - > 00:00:42,880 stand in front of a flat painting and feel like it was, 15 00:00:42,960 - > 00:00:44,399 you know, it had dimensions. 16 00:00:44,640 - > 00:00:48,079 So it's very, very interesting to see those parallels in 17 00:00:48,079 - > 00:00:50,079 technological advancements. 18 00:00:50,880 - > 00:00:53,920 SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome back to the new episode of the 19 00:00:53,920 - > 00:00:56,399 Women in Customer Success podcast. 20 00:00:56,640 - > 00:01:00,799 Today it's a pleasure to introduce you to Caroline Lambe, 21 00:01:01,119 - > 00:01:03,759 manager of customer success at ContentFool. 22 00:01:04,239 - > 00:01:06,319 Caroline, welcome to the show. 23 00:01:06,799 - > 00:01:08,000 Thanks for having me, Maria. 24 00:01:08,159 - > 00:01:09,519 I'm looking forward to it. 25 00:01:10,480 - > 00:01:15,519 Let's help the listeners to kind of pin you on the map. 26 00:01:15,599 - > 00:01:17,519 SPEAKER_00: Firstly, where are you calling from? 27 00:01:18,239 - > 00:01:20,239 So I'm based in Southeast London. 28 00:01:20,319 - > 00:01:21,599 I'm working from home today. 29 00:01:21,680 - > 00:01:24,400 So I've lived in London since I was a student. 30 00:01:24,640 - > 00:01:27,599 So calling from my my workspace. 31 00:01:28,079 - > 00:01:29,200 SPEAKER_01: Calling from London. 32 00:01:29,359 - > 00:01:29,920 Very good. 33 00:01:30,480 - > 00:01:34,719 Caroline, would you consider yourself to be introvert or 34 00:01:34,719 - > 00:01:35,519 extrovert? 35 00:01:36,480 - > 00:01:37,359 SPEAKER_00: That's a good question. 36 00:01:37,439 - > 00:01:39,359 I think I'm a mixture of both. 37 00:01:39,680 - > 00:01:43,840 So I'm very extrovert when I want to be, but then I 38 00:01:44,000 - > 00:01:46,959 absolutely need to kind of recharge and make up that time. 39 00:01:47,040 - > 00:01:50,239 And so if I've had a really busy day talking to people in the 40 00:01:50,239 - > 00:01:54,159 evening, I am drained and I just need to sort of lie on the couch 41 00:01:54,159 - > 00:01:55,120 for the rest of the day. 42 00:01:55,439 - > 00:01:57,760 Oh well, that sounds fantastic, actually. 43 00:01:58,560 - > 00:02:01,599 SPEAKER_01: If you had to completely change your career 44 00:02:01,599 - > 00:02:04,079 tomorrow, what would you do? 45 00:02:05,040 - > 00:02:06,560 SPEAKER_00: So that's an easy one for me. 46 00:02:06,719 - > 00:02:09,439 So I love fiction writing. 47 00:02:09,599 - > 00:02:10,719 That is my hobby. 48 00:02:10,960 - > 00:02:14,319 And you know, I it's hard to get the time and the headspace to do 49 00:02:14,319 - > 00:02:17,680 it, but I would 100% be finishing many of the books that 50 00:02:17,680 - > 00:02:19,919 I've already started to write. 51 00:02:20,479 - > 00:02:23,439 Ooh, so how many have you started writing? 52 00:02:24,000 - > 00:02:25,199 Probably about three. 53 00:02:25,360 - > 00:02:30,080 So I've got like a uh teen fantasy one at the moment, which 54 00:02:30,080 - > 00:02:31,840 I've been working on for a long time. 55 00:02:32,000 - > 00:02:36,319 And then I've got another one, which is about all the different 56 00:02:36,319 - > 00:02:37,599 boyfriends I've had. 57 00:02:38,800 - > 00:02:43,599 That's a bit more uh kind of adult fiction, and then I've got 58 00:02:43,599 - > 00:02:47,759 a lot of short stories, so like little collections of of stories 59 00:02:47,759 - > 00:02:48,159 as well. 60 00:02:48,319 - > 00:02:51,759 So yeah, there's a there's a whole pile of things I need to 61 00:02:51,759 - > 00:02:53,680 go back and finish and edit. 62 00:02:54,240 - > 00:02:55,759 SPEAKER_01: That sounds fascinating. 63 00:02:56,000 - > 00:02:57,520 I would love to read some of those. 64 00:02:57,759 - > 00:03:01,120 Oh well, let us know please when any of those are published, or 65 00:03:01,120 - > 00:03:03,360 if you get new at the end, publish immediately because you 66 00:03:03,360 - > 00:03:04,400 will be so inspired. 67 00:03:04,560 - > 00:03:07,439 That that's just a fascinating career that you would do. 68 00:03:07,599 - > 00:03:11,439 Now let's go a few steps back to the time when you were 16. 69 00:03:12,000 - > 00:03:16,960 Would a 16-year-old Caroline be surprised to find you in this 70 00:03:16,960 - > 00:03:18,319 current job? 71 00:03:19,439 - > 00:03:20,159 SPEAKER_00: Totally. 72 00:03:20,319 - > 00:03:24,000 So I was never into science, maths, or you know, and I 73 00:03:24,159 - > 00:03:27,840 actually was at school, we barely had many computers then 74 00:03:28,000 - > 00:03:28,560 anyway. 75 00:03:28,800 - > 00:03:32,400 I studied history of art at the Quartholde Institute, so I was 76 00:03:32,400 - > 00:03:35,599 very much living in the Renaissance, living in 77 00:03:35,599 - > 00:03:39,439 paintings, and sort of just loving art. 78 00:03:39,680 - > 00:03:44,319 But when I graduated from there, I had a boyfriend who was really 79 00:03:44,319 - > 00:03:45,280 into tech. 80 00:03:46,000 - > 00:03:50,080 And this is when the first internet cafes were opening in 81 00:03:50,080 - > 00:03:52,319 London, and it was just really, really exciting. 82 00:03:52,560 - > 00:03:55,120 And through him, I started to get interested in technology. 83 00:03:55,199 - > 00:03:59,759 I took a Photoshop course, I learned HTML, and I started 84 00:03:59,759 - > 00:04:00,639 building websites. 85 00:04:00,719 - > 00:04:04,560 So I went from the 15th century into the absolute the most uh 86 00:04:04,560 - > 00:04:08,000 latest kind of tech, and I just thought actually, this is where 87 00:04:08,000 - > 00:04:08,639 I need to be. 88 00:04:08,800 - > 00:04:12,479 But a 16-year-old me would would probably never have predicted 89 00:04:12,479 - > 00:04:15,680 that that there was the path I would end up taking. 90 00:04:16,879 - > 00:04:20,240 SPEAKER_01: How interesting is that I can completely relate as 91 00:04:20,240 - > 00:04:21,279 you were speaking. 92 00:04:21,439 - > 00:04:25,759 I was I was thinking how I was a musician, and then when I met my 93 00:04:25,759 - > 00:04:29,600 husband, and we got married, and I started hearing all the 94 00:04:29,600 - > 00:04:32,480 conversations about the product management and project 95 00:04:32,480 - > 00:04:35,519 management, and I just ended up in a business because I felt 96 00:04:35,519 - > 00:04:38,079 that I can speak that language constantly. 97 00:04:38,319 - > 00:04:40,959 I guess that was one of the very good influences that you know 98 00:04:41,040 - > 00:04:42,959 the our better halves had on us. 99 00:04:44,399 - > 00:04:46,639 SPEAKER_00: I think it also probably helps to have a 100 00:04:46,639 - > 00:04:49,439 creative mindset as well as a technical mindset because I 101 00:04:49,439 - > 00:04:53,279 think then you bring different approaches, different ways of 102 00:04:53,279 - > 00:04:57,120 thinking to using technology and maybe humanize it in a in a 103 00:04:57,120 - > 00:04:57,839 different way. 104 00:04:58,079 - > 00:05:00,959 And I think you know, art itself actually had technical 105 00:05:00,959 - > 00:05:01,439 revolutions. 106 00:05:01,519 - > 00:05:04,480 So if you're studying the Renaissance, actually the 107 00:05:04,480 - > 00:05:08,560 introduction of perspective was seen as the huge technical kind 108 00:05:08,560 - > 00:05:10,079 of innovation of its time. 109 00:05:10,240 - > 00:05:14,160 So, you know, Giotto and some of those very early painters who 110 00:05:14,160 - > 00:05:17,279 started to paint it, you know, in 3D, when we look at it now, 111 00:05:17,519 - > 00:05:21,279 you know, with AI and with virtual reality, we just think 112 00:05:21,279 - > 00:05:22,079 that's nothing. 113 00:05:22,319 - > 00:05:25,600 But it was absolutely groundbreaking at the time to 114 00:05:25,600 - > 00:05:29,199 stand in front of a flat painting and feel like it was, 115 00:05:29,279 - > 00:05:30,800 you know, it had dimensions. 116 00:05:30,959 - > 00:05:33,680 So I think it's very, very interesting to see those 117 00:05:33,680 - > 00:05:36,720 parallels in technological advancements. 118 00:05:37,519 - > 00:05:40,319 SPEAKER_01: And remind me, I remember the word chiaroscuro. 119 00:05:40,560 - > 00:05:43,199 Is that considered one of the techniques of light, right? 120 00:05:43,519 - > 00:05:46,000 SPEAKER_00: Or that no, you're right. 121 00:05:46,079 - > 00:05:47,680 So that means light out of darkness. 122 00:05:47,839 - > 00:05:51,519 And it's painters at Caravaggio in the 17th century that was 123 00:05:51,519 - > 00:05:53,600 more experimenting with that. 124 00:05:53,680 - > 00:05:56,879 So that's where you see those incredible techniques where 125 00:05:56,879 - > 00:06:00,480 somebody looks very lit and then they are coming out, literally 126 00:06:00,560 - > 00:06:02,000 coming out of the darkness. 127 00:06:02,240 - > 00:06:05,439 So yeah, good, good phrase to uh to know. 128 00:06:07,040 - > 00:06:08,560 SPEAKER_01: Now I'm really curious. 129 00:06:08,800 - > 00:06:13,680 Have you tried experimenting with AI in a way of putting some 130 00:06:13,680 - > 00:06:14,079 prompts? 131 00:06:14,160 - > 00:06:17,040 Oh, create a painting in uh Caravaggio style. 132 00:06:17,199 - > 00:06:18,399 Have you done something like that? 133 00:06:18,480 - > 00:06:21,040 Because I'm realizing I haven't, but as you're talking about 134 00:06:21,040 - > 00:06:26,000 those techniques, I feel there would be so much discoveries and 135 00:06:26,000 - > 00:06:28,720 so much surprises if we started doing that in AI. 136 00:06:28,959 - > 00:06:32,000 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think I'm a bit scared to do that because I 137 00:06:32,000 - > 00:06:36,160 don't want to see how good or, you know, potentially how bad 138 00:06:36,160 - > 00:06:36,560 that is. 139 00:06:36,720 - > 00:06:39,600 And I think, you know, that's obviously the one big debate 140 00:06:39,600 - > 00:06:43,519 about AI is preserving human creativity. 141 00:06:43,680 - > 00:06:46,240 And I know even if you're looking on Instagram and a lot 142 00:06:46,240 - > 00:06:50,319 of people are putting AI videos up now, people don't like them. 143 00:06:50,480 - > 00:06:53,040 They I think there's still that need for reality. 144 00:06:53,120 - > 00:06:57,519 I think we're looking at AI for a practical enhancements, help 145 00:06:57,759 - > 00:06:58,319 usage. 146 00:06:58,480 - > 00:07:01,920 We don't want it to replace at the moment, anyway, that 147 00:07:01,920 - > 00:07:05,120 creativity that comes from our our minds and our brains. 148 00:07:05,279 - > 00:07:07,519 So yeah, so I haven't experimented with that. 149 00:07:07,600 - > 00:07:10,639 I I I did use it to help my daughter think about how to 150 00:07:10,639 - > 00:07:13,199 write a bit of creative writing for her homework, though. 151 00:07:13,279 - > 00:07:18,000 And we've put a concept into Chat GBT, and it the story it 152 00:07:18,000 - > 00:07:19,439 wrote was actually very, very good. 153 00:07:19,600 - > 00:07:23,199 And that was quite shocking, you know, and that it could produce 154 00:07:23,199 - > 00:07:25,360 something so good so quickly. 155 00:07:25,519 - > 00:07:29,920 So I yeah, it's it's a bit concerning, but a bit inevitable 156 00:07:30,000 - > 00:07:34,000 actually, how AI is gonna end up infringing on the creative 157 00:07:34,000 - > 00:07:34,720 worlds. 158 00:07:36,000 - > 00:07:39,040 SPEAKER_01: And you're so right, especially as we see all of 159 00:07:39,040 - > 00:07:43,199 those different photos and videos that are AI, and and 160 00:07:43,199 - > 00:07:46,399 you're just finding yourself not knowing what to trust. 161 00:07:46,560 - > 00:07:50,079 Uh, some stuff are almost too good to be true, almost easy to 162 00:07:50,079 - > 00:07:50,399 understand. 163 00:07:50,480 - > 00:07:52,000 Yeah, it's AI, it can't happen. 164 00:07:52,160 - > 00:07:55,759 But there is so many gray spaces or gray zones that you are 165 00:07:55,759 - > 00:07:56,959 actually not sure. 166 00:07:57,279 - > 00:07:59,839 Just recently I had a conversation with uh a few 167 00:07:59,839 - > 00:08:04,639 people about the music in AI and whether you would ask AI to 168 00:08:04,639 - > 00:08:07,199 compose in Beethoven or Mozart style. 169 00:08:07,279 - > 00:08:08,560 And I'm really afraid of that. 170 00:08:08,639 - > 00:08:12,079 I I don't want to give it that prompt and then see what happens 171 00:08:12,079 - > 00:08:16,319 out of it because I'm sure it would be incredibly similar to 172 00:08:16,319 - > 00:08:20,319 what they did, but then is there the direction we want to go? 173 00:08:20,480 - > 00:08:24,720 Like, do we want a machine to produce Mozart's music? 174 00:08:24,959 - > 00:08:27,120 I think I would have my limits with that. 175 00:08:27,360 - > 00:08:29,680 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I I really hope that's not the way we're 176 00:08:29,680 - > 00:08:32,639 going because I I think we want to attach ourselves to the 177 00:08:32,639 - > 00:08:34,480 genius, to the personality. 178 00:08:34,720 - > 00:08:37,840 Like we want to know about the life of Michelangelo, for 179 00:08:37,840 - > 00:08:40,960 example, and you know, this man that could produce something so 180 00:08:40,960 - > 00:08:44,159 beautiful out of marble, and you know, and Mozart who could 181 00:08:44,159 - > 00:08:47,360 compose something so unbelievably incredible. 182 00:08:47,600 - > 00:08:50,639 Yeah, if machines are doing it, then where where's that person? 183 00:08:50,799 - > 00:08:54,639 Where's that personal history that's driving that creativity 184 00:08:54,720 - > 00:08:57,840 or driving that that music or or art? 185 00:08:58,480 - > 00:09:02,399 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's not only the technicalities of what is 186 00:09:02,399 - > 00:09:04,559 being composed or or drawn. 187 00:09:04,799 - > 00:09:05,360 SPEAKER_00: Oh wow. 188 00:09:06,080 - > 00:09:07,600 Lots of things to consider that, I guess. 189 00:09:07,840 - > 00:09:08,480 I know, I know. 190 00:09:08,639 - > 00:09:12,000 I I wonder whether younger generations will just accept the 191 00:09:12,000 - > 00:09:15,039 way that they are born with new technology, that that is the way 192 00:09:15,039 - > 00:09:16,000 that things will go. 193 00:09:16,159 - > 00:09:19,919 So I'd I'd be interested to see how how that evolves with each 194 00:09:19,919 - > 00:09:20,559 generation. 195 00:09:22,320 - > 00:09:26,240 SPEAKER_01: I agree, especially the default of AI. 196 00:09:26,399 - > 00:09:29,039 For example, when you have a question, you know, we used to 197 00:09:29,039 - > 00:09:30,320 go and Google it, right? 198 00:09:30,399 - > 00:09:34,480 And now you just go straight to AI to ask the questions or 199 00:09:34,879 - > 00:09:40,080 produce something or write me an outline for a book or anything 200 00:09:40,080 - > 00:09:40,720 else. 201 00:09:41,039 - > 00:09:44,320 That's yeah, very, very different after generations. 202 00:09:44,559 - > 00:09:49,919 But I'm interested to hear what was the journey from history of 203 00:09:49,919 - > 00:09:54,399 art and renaissance into tech and then customer success. 204 00:09:55,440 - > 00:09:58,000 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I guess I sort of started to tell a bit of 205 00:09:58,000 - > 00:09:58,159 that. 206 00:09:58,240 - > 00:10:01,200 So, you know, I obviously learned how to build websites 207 00:10:01,360 - > 00:10:05,279 and you know got into Photoshop and we sort of took the artistic 208 00:10:05,279 - > 00:10:07,519 side into technology. 209 00:10:07,759 - > 00:10:11,759 And then with a couple of friends, we set up a small 210 00:10:11,759 - > 00:10:15,360 company building websites, and we didn't really know what we 211 00:10:15,360 - > 00:10:18,720 were doing, we didn't really know how to run a business or 212 00:10:18,720 - > 00:10:19,440 how to pitch. 213 00:10:19,519 - > 00:10:22,399 So, you know, we ended up kind of really undercharging and 214 00:10:22,399 - > 00:10:23,440 building some websites. 215 00:10:23,519 - > 00:10:26,720 So we built the first ever website for what's now Price 216 00:10:26,720 - > 00:10:27,679 Waterhouse Coopers. 217 00:10:27,840 - > 00:10:29,200 It used to be called Coopers and Library. 218 00:10:29,440 - > 00:10:32,559 We built their first website, and I think we charged them 400 219 00:10:32,559 - > 00:10:32,960 pounds. 220 00:10:33,679 - > 00:10:36,240 And we were in the boardroom explaining to the you know, 221 00:10:36,320 - > 00:10:39,360 there was senior leadership really what a website was. 222 00:10:39,440 - > 00:10:42,639 And and in in those early days, it was like grey pages with 223 00:10:42,639 - > 00:10:46,639 graphs, and nobody really knew what to put on their website. 224 00:10:46,879 - > 00:10:50,799 Um, and then we built a lot of web pages for a travel company. 225 00:10:50,960 - > 00:10:55,039 So we we you know handcrafted all of those pages with all the 226 00:10:55,039 - > 00:10:57,600 destinations, uh, every flight. 227 00:10:57,759 - > 00:11:00,720 And the guy obviously saw that we were totally green and didn't 228 00:11:00,720 - > 00:11:01,759 know how to run a business. 229 00:11:01,840 - > 00:11:05,360 And when we sent him an invoice, he said, I'm gonna pay you in 230 00:11:05,360 - > 00:11:08,240 free travel anywhere in the world instead of with money. 231 00:11:08,480 - > 00:11:12,240 So we got five-star hotels, first-class flights anywhere we 232 00:11:12,240 - > 00:11:15,279 wanted, but unless you had like no money to spend when we got 233 00:11:15,279 - > 00:11:15,519 there. 234 00:11:15,759 - > 00:11:19,279 So it it was it was really good fun at the time, but yeah, it 235 00:11:19,279 - > 00:11:21,519 was a bit of a we didn't really know what we were doing. 236 00:11:21,600 - > 00:11:24,480 And then from there I actually went into Sorry. 237 00:11:24,559 - > 00:11:26,000 Can I just ask, where did you go? 238 00:11:26,159 - > 00:11:27,440 What did you actually do? 239 00:11:27,679 - > 00:11:28,639 Some cool locations. 240 00:11:28,879 - > 00:11:30,960 So I we mainly stuck to Europe. 241 00:11:31,039 - > 00:11:34,480 So I I remember going to Amsterdam and going to Paris, 242 00:11:34,559 - > 00:11:36,159 and I think we went to Italy. 243 00:11:36,240 - > 00:11:40,639 So yeah, we and stayed in literally the best hotels, but 244 00:11:40,639 - > 00:11:42,960 couldn't afford to eat in the restaurants or anything. 245 00:11:43,120 - > 00:11:48,320 So it was uh kind of fun, but uh if we'd had a bit of money to 246 00:11:48,320 - > 00:11:50,000 spend, that would have been good as well. 247 00:11:50,240 - > 00:11:52,480 But you know, I think when you're young, you don't really 248 00:11:52,480 - > 00:11:56,559 care so much, you're just kind of living on energy and kind of 249 00:11:56,559 - > 00:11:57,120 good fun. 250 00:11:57,360 - > 00:11:58,240 So yeah, that was good. 251 00:11:58,320 - > 00:12:00,639 And then and then from there I went into the charity sector. 252 00:12:00,879 - > 00:12:04,399 So I worked for Mencat, which is the learning disability charity 253 00:12:04,399 - > 00:12:06,399 in the UK, and that was fantastic. 254 00:12:06,559 - > 00:12:10,159 So I I kind of relaunched their website, which was all about 255 00:12:10,159 - > 00:12:13,279 campaigning, providing information for parents and 256 00:12:13,279 - > 00:12:16,480 carers, and we could be really creative and we really had to 257 00:12:16,480 - > 00:12:20,000 think about actually how to design accessible web content so 258 00:12:20,000 - > 00:12:23,200 that people with learning disabilities who found it harder 259 00:12:23,200 - > 00:12:27,360 to read information or needed more imagery, we had to design a 260 00:12:27,360 - > 00:12:28,960 lot of the content with that in mind. 261 00:12:29,120 - > 00:12:31,919 And I think when you're thinking about someone that really needs 262 00:12:31,919 - > 00:12:34,960 to kind of have information presented clearly, you're 263 00:12:34,960 - > 00:12:36,320 designing well for everybody. 264 00:12:36,480 - > 00:12:40,399 So that was quite a nice to kind of go and give talks about 265 00:12:40,399 - > 00:12:42,799 accessible design, which I I really enjoyed. 266 00:12:43,039 - > 00:12:44,559 So that that was great fun. 267 00:12:44,720 - > 00:12:48,799 And then from there I actually went into more the corporate 268 00:12:48,799 - > 00:12:49,600 side of tech. 269 00:12:49,759 - > 00:12:53,840 So I had a bit of a break, had uh my children, sort of really 270 00:12:53,840 - > 00:12:57,759 took a bit of time out, and then went back in part-time to work 271 00:12:57,759 - > 00:13:01,759 for a technology implementation partner, and then was there for 272 00:13:01,759 - > 00:13:05,759 six years and then ended up at Sitecore, and then after that 273 00:13:05,919 - > 00:13:07,039 ended up in Contentpo. 274 00:13:07,360 - > 00:13:09,600 So it's been a bit of a kind of round-the-houses sort of 275 00:13:09,600 - > 00:13:12,480 journey, but I definitely stayed with tech really sort of for 276 00:13:12,480 - > 00:13:13,759 most of my career. 277 00:13:14,960 - > 00:13:18,799 SPEAKER_01: Today's episode is brought to you by DeployFlow, 278 00:13:18,960 - > 00:13:21,360 your partner for digital transformation. 279 00:13:21,679 - > 00:13:24,240 Do you need to build an MVP fast? 280 00:13:25,360 - > 00:13:30,320 Whether it's a new product, APIs, configuration for your 281 00:13:30,320 - > 00:13:33,759 CRMs, or modernizing your cloud apps. 282 00:13:34,080 - > 00:13:38,559 P-Suite gives you a team, senior squad of full-stack engineers 283 00:13:38,559 - > 00:13:41,919 who plug into your team and hit the ground running. 284 00:13:42,159 - > 00:13:46,240 Designed for founders and CTOs who want to move fast with 285 00:13:46,240 - > 00:13:50,320 AI-powered tools and clear sprint-based outcomes. 286 00:13:50,720 - > 00:13:52,639 No more long-term log-ins. 287 00:13:52,799 - > 00:13:56,720 So if a sprint doesn't deliver, you can just walk away. 288 00:13:57,039 - > 00:14:02,879 For a cost and squat estimate, head over to deployflow.co slash 289 00:14:02,879 - > 00:14:06,240 p suite and take the quick quiz. 290 00:14:06,799 - > 00:14:08,559 Deployflow.co. 291 00:14:09,840 - > 00:14:13,039 I would like to go back into the moment when you're saying that 292 00:14:13,039 - > 00:14:16,000 you you took career break to spend some time with your 293 00:14:16,000 - > 00:14:16,559 children. 294 00:14:18,080 - > 00:14:22,080 How long was the break and what were some of the steps that you 295 00:14:22,080 - > 00:14:24,799 took to get yourself back into the workforce? 296 00:14:24,879 - > 00:14:26,000 How was that experience? 297 00:14:26,240 - > 00:14:27,600 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that's a good question. 298 00:14:27,679 - > 00:14:30,399 And in fact, I was interviewing someone for the for my team 299 00:14:30,399 - > 00:14:34,399 today who's on maternity leave and just that kind of anxiety 300 00:14:34,399 - > 00:14:36,799 about going back to work after you've, you know, you've had 301 00:14:36,799 - > 00:14:40,080 your first baby, and it's terrifying to think of leaving 302 00:14:40,080 - > 00:14:40,399 them. 303 00:14:40,720 - > 00:14:43,840 So I actually made a decision and I knew it was going to 304 00:14:43,840 - > 00:14:46,320 impact my career to have that time out. 305 00:14:46,399 - > 00:14:50,799 I just really wanted to kind of spend those early years with my 306 00:14:50,799 - > 00:14:51,120 children. 307 00:14:51,200 - > 00:14:54,960 And I know it was a luxury, and financially, you know, we we 308 00:14:54,960 - > 00:14:56,720 really kind of had to pull back for that. 309 00:14:56,799 - > 00:15:00,080 So we we had to kind of have many holidays, we really had to 310 00:15:00,080 - > 00:15:03,919 think about cost savings, but I just really wanted those sunny 311 00:15:03,919 - > 00:15:06,960 days in the park and and to spend that time when they were 312 00:15:06,960 - > 00:15:07,200 little. 313 00:15:07,519 - > 00:15:11,519 So yeah, we just had to budget, we had to be super careful, and 314 00:15:11,759 - > 00:15:15,440 uh you know, it was only when when my son was about nine nine, 315 00:15:15,519 - > 00:15:18,559 ten months, I did work part-time, so I didn't 316 00:15:18,559 - > 00:15:20,159 completely come out of the workforce. 317 00:15:20,240 - > 00:15:23,759 I did one or two days a week, and I I did that consistently. 318 00:15:23,840 - > 00:15:27,440 And then I had my daughter a couple of years later, and it 319 00:15:27,440 - > 00:15:30,799 was only really when she was a little bit older and properly at 320 00:15:30,799 - > 00:15:33,919 primary school, and I thought, actually I can I can start to up 321 00:15:33,919 - > 00:15:36,879 my days and and work a little bit more full-time now. 322 00:15:37,200 - > 00:15:38,639 So it was hard. 323 00:15:38,720 - > 00:15:42,000 I mean, I we we brought in just enough to cover all the bills 324 00:15:42,000 - > 00:15:45,440 and the mortgage and enough to sort of have a bit of fun, but I 325 00:15:45,440 - > 00:15:47,360 I wouldn't have done it any other way. 326 00:15:47,440 - > 00:15:51,759 I mean, and I I think I was very lucky and very happy to do that. 327 00:15:51,919 - > 00:15:55,840 And I can see for uh for a lot of women nowadays with the cost 328 00:15:55,840 - > 00:15:58,240 of living, it's it's really, really tough. 329 00:15:58,320 - > 00:16:01,120 And I think a lot of people do just have to go back into work 330 00:16:01,120 - > 00:16:04,480 and make those sacrifices and put their children in in 331 00:16:04,480 - > 00:16:05,200 childcare. 332 00:16:05,360 - > 00:16:10,159 So I I kind of knew I was lucky to to be able to do it. 333 00:16:11,360 - > 00:16:13,600 SPEAKER_01: Did you say something that it was a decision 334 00:16:13,600 - > 00:16:15,679 that you knew would impact your career? 335 00:16:15,919 - > 00:16:17,200 What do you mean by that? 336 00:16:17,919 - > 00:16:21,279 SPEAKER_00: So I mean, I think when you take those breaks, for 337 00:16:21,279 - > 00:16:26,320 example, when I when I left uh the charity where I was working, 338 00:16:26,559 - > 00:16:30,080 I was probably on track for my next career role to really go 339 00:16:30,080 - > 00:16:34,240 into kind of being a a director of digital at a charity. 340 00:16:34,720 - > 00:16:39,759 And because I took that chunk of time out and decided not to go 341 00:16:39,759 - > 00:16:43,919 back to work to that job after my son was born, just because 342 00:16:43,919 - > 00:16:46,159 they wouldn't entertain part-time, they wanted it 343 00:16:46,159 - > 00:16:46,960 full-time. 344 00:16:47,120 - > 00:16:51,120 Uh I knew that I really had to scuff at my chance to actually 345 00:16:51,440 - > 00:16:53,440 progress my career in that way. 346 00:16:53,840 - > 00:16:55,440 And I think that is really hard, you know. 347 00:16:55,679 - > 00:16:59,200 With with careers, you've got to get that momentum and go from 348 00:16:59,200 - > 00:16:59,919 role to role. 349 00:17:00,000 - > 00:17:02,960 And I think it's it's often quite hard to take a break 350 00:17:02,960 - > 00:17:04,640 because you're questioned about it. 351 00:17:04,960 - > 00:17:09,119 You maybe kind of lose some of the trends or lose some of the 352 00:17:09,119 - > 00:17:10,880 aggression that's happening in tech. 353 00:17:11,039 - > 00:17:12,319 So I think it's tough. 354 00:17:12,400 - > 00:17:15,359 And and I would say the majority of women that have worked within 355 00:17:15,359 - > 00:17:19,920 tech, I would say 90% of them have pretty much taken their 356 00:17:19,920 - > 00:17:23,039 assigned maternity leave, maybe eight, nine months to a year, 357 00:17:23,119 - > 00:17:25,839 and then gone straight back into work full-time. 358 00:17:26,240 - > 00:17:29,200 It does impact your career when you take that time out. 359 00:17:30,799 - > 00:17:34,319 SPEAKER_01: I think we both are speaking from the context of UK, 360 00:17:34,400 - > 00:17:37,279 where it is very common typically to keep the job only 361 00:17:37,279 - > 00:17:40,559 for 12 months during maternity leave and then go back. 362 00:17:41,839 - > 00:17:47,119 And I think only in some maybe rare cases, you can go 363 00:17:47,119 - > 00:17:47,680 part-time. 364 00:17:47,759 - > 00:17:51,680 And for what I have seen, especially in tech, it's not 365 00:17:51,680 - > 00:17:52,960 typically an option. 366 00:17:53,119 - > 00:17:58,400 But I wonder, can we can companies, can managers do 367 00:17:58,400 - > 00:18:00,240 something about to help ladies? 368 00:18:00,400 - > 00:18:04,559 As I work a lot with German customers, for example, it seems 369 00:18:04,559 - > 00:18:08,640 very common there that women go back to work either after taking 370 00:18:08,720 - > 00:18:11,680 break or even for any other reasons, and they decide to work 371 00:18:11,680 - > 00:18:16,559 80% or 70-60% of work, and it doesn't impact the 372 00:18:16,559 - > 00:18:17,279 employability. 373 00:18:17,359 - > 00:18:20,799 It's almost a given, which I think it's it's incredible for 374 00:18:20,799 - > 00:18:21,200 women. 375 00:18:21,519 - > 00:18:26,079 Wondering, have you noticed the ways that we could kind of give 376 00:18:26,079 - > 00:18:29,519 mothers a bit of more opportunities in that aspect, or 377 00:18:29,519 - > 00:18:32,720 it's always difficult because of the bottom line? 378 00:18:32,960 - > 00:18:34,079 SPEAKER_00: I I think it's hard. 379 00:18:34,160 - > 00:18:36,640 I mean, and I think if you take the other extreme, which is the 380 00:18:36,640 - > 00:18:39,920 American culture, where you're expected to go back to work when 381 00:18:39,920 - > 00:18:41,519 your child is four months old. 382 00:18:41,839 - > 00:18:42,240 Oh gosh. 383 00:18:42,640 - > 00:18:45,119 I mean, that is really, really tough. 384 00:18:45,279 - > 00:18:47,839 And I think we're sort of middle ground of a set. 385 00:18:48,079 - > 00:18:53,039 I've worked for a Danish company before, and in Denmark, and you 386 00:18:53,039 - > 00:18:54,799 get time, really good time out. 387 00:18:54,880 - > 00:18:58,160 You the man and the woman get the time out, and then I think 388 00:18:58,160 - > 00:18:59,440 it's the same in Belgium. 389 00:18:59,680 - > 00:19:03,680 You also get a period of a year that you can take up until when 390 00:19:03,680 - > 00:19:05,200 your child has 10 years. 391 00:19:05,519 - > 00:19:08,960 So you get it, it's not full pay, but you can take like a 392 00:19:08,960 - > 00:19:10,559 month, for example, in the summer. 393 00:19:10,720 - > 00:19:13,599 So you can really enjoy your children when they're growing 394 00:19:13,599 - > 00:19:13,920 up. 395 00:19:14,240 - > 00:19:17,839 And you know, that's there's a reason why Scandinavian 396 00:19:17,839 - > 00:19:20,480 countries are very, very happy and very productive. 397 00:19:20,799 - > 00:19:25,119 When I worked for that Danish company, people would be in the 398 00:19:25,119 - > 00:19:28,880 office probably from about eight, and then by 3:30, the 399 00:19:28,880 - > 00:19:30,240 office was empty. 400 00:19:30,400 - > 00:19:33,359 Not because people were lazy, it's because the culture is you 401 00:19:33,359 - > 00:19:35,839 go and pick your children up from school, and then you spend 402 00:19:35,839 - > 00:19:39,119 quality time, you eat together, and then maybe you'll do a bit 403 00:19:39,119 - > 00:19:40,319 of work in the evening. 404 00:19:40,640 - > 00:19:44,000 But people are really happy because they're not missing out 405 00:19:44,000 - > 00:19:46,640 on family life, they're getting the best of everything. 406 00:19:46,880 - > 00:19:50,240 And I think you can see that with the success of you know, 407 00:19:50,400 - > 00:19:51,920 Scandinavian businesses. 408 00:19:52,000 - > 00:19:54,400 There's some of them are the most successful in the world. 409 00:19:54,559 - > 00:19:57,200 For example, if you look at our high street at the moment, most 410 00:19:57,200 - > 00:19:58,000 of it is Danish. 411 00:19:58,079 - > 00:20:03,279 So Oli and Stein, the uh sticks and sushi, the swart and green, 412 00:20:03,359 - > 00:20:06,559 the new homeware, you know, all of these incredible Danish 413 00:20:06,559 - > 00:20:09,200 business businesses, Bang and Olsen, you know, that are are 414 00:20:09,359 - > 00:20:12,319 really top-end kind of businesses, they're all coming 415 00:20:12,319 - > 00:20:13,279 from that culture. 416 00:20:13,519 - > 00:20:17,359 So I don't think you can always say that giving people that time 417 00:20:17,359 - > 00:20:20,319 with the family equates to a lack of productivity and a lack 418 00:20:20,319 - > 00:20:20,880 of success. 419 00:20:20,960 - > 00:20:24,480 I think it builds a really positive culture. 420 00:20:24,720 - > 00:20:27,920 And even actually, that I know they pay a lot of tax, so they 421 00:20:27,920 - > 00:20:31,200 can do things like this, but if you're deciding on a career 422 00:20:31,200 - > 00:20:34,240 change, there's actually compensation that you can get. 423 00:20:34,319 - > 00:20:38,000 So you can be paid for up to six months while you contemplate 424 00:20:38,000 - > 00:20:39,920 what your next career move is. 425 00:20:40,160 - > 00:20:42,720 So you don't feel the need to go straight from one job to 426 00:20:42,720 - > 00:20:43,119 another. 427 00:20:43,279 - > 00:20:46,880 So obviously, that's like the ultimate benchmark if you pay a 428 00:20:46,880 - > 00:20:49,759 lot of tax and you live in a in a sort of culture like that, and 429 00:20:49,759 - > 00:20:52,000 then you've got the other extreme, which is the sort of 430 00:20:52,000 - > 00:20:54,000 American, North American culture. 431 00:20:54,240 - > 00:20:55,839 So I think it's tricky. 432 00:20:55,920 - > 00:20:59,119 I I think we're we're we're fairly well looked after in in 433 00:20:59,119 - > 00:21:03,519 the UK, and that you do get a fairly good maternity time off, 434 00:21:03,599 - > 00:21:06,880 and and also with flexible working, working from home, 435 00:21:07,119 - > 00:21:10,000 that's been a bit of a game changer in that that people can 436 00:21:10,000 - > 00:21:11,680 be more present for their children. 437 00:21:11,839 - > 00:21:14,960 So I I I think it's not too bad. 438 00:21:15,680 - > 00:21:18,559 SPEAKER_01: Oh, the dream of Scandinavian countries, right? 439 00:21:18,799 - > 00:21:22,559 Um I remember every time I worked with Scandinavian 440 00:21:22,559 - > 00:21:27,599 customers, we knew that July was off because everybody should 441 00:21:27,599 - > 00:21:28,799 take the whole month off. 442 00:21:29,039 - > 00:21:32,880 Then in Germany and some other parts of Europe, August is off. 443 00:21:33,200 - > 00:21:36,480 You don't dare to put any calls in place, of course, because 444 00:21:36,480 - > 00:21:38,160 everybody needs to have the time off. 445 00:21:38,319 - > 00:21:43,039 Just the other day I found out that in Belgium it is actually 446 00:21:43,039 - > 00:21:46,960 common in the whole country that there is no schools, there is no 447 00:21:46,960 - > 00:21:49,279 school on Wednesdays afternoon. 448 00:21:49,519 - > 00:21:53,519 So mothers typically have this time off from work and they they 449 00:21:53,519 - > 00:21:55,440 spend it with their children again. 450 00:21:55,680 - > 00:21:58,559 So for the purposes of family spending more time together, 451 00:21:58,640 - > 00:21:59,440 which is wonderful. 452 00:22:00,319 - > 00:22:03,119 All the ladies that I have ever worked with in Belgium are 453 00:22:03,119 - > 00:22:04,799 incredible performers. 454 00:22:05,279 - > 00:22:09,279 So there must be something amazing about increasing our 455 00:22:09,279 - > 00:22:12,960 happiness and productivity by giving us time to spend with our 456 00:22:12,960 - > 00:22:13,440 families. 457 00:22:13,759 - > 00:22:14,160 SPEAKER_00: Absolutely. 458 00:22:14,319 - > 00:22:17,119 I think if you're trusted by the business that you work with, 459 00:22:17,359 - > 00:22:20,799 then you give back, you know, if they if they trust you to be 460 00:22:20,799 - > 00:22:24,799 flexible and you know have have that time maybe an hour or so in 461 00:22:24,799 - > 00:22:27,599 the afternoon with children and then go back to work. 462 00:22:27,680 - > 00:22:29,920 As long as you're being productive and as long as you're 463 00:22:29,920 - > 00:22:34,079 hitting your targets and achieving, then that that kind 464 00:22:34,079 - > 00:22:37,680 of nine to five ideal, I think, is is becoming less and less 465 00:22:37,680 - > 00:22:38,160 common. 466 00:22:38,319 - > 00:22:40,480 You know, and I think it's also important when the children are 467 00:22:40,480 - > 00:22:40,720 young. 468 00:22:40,799 - > 00:22:44,480 I mean, my son's 17 now, and you know, it's hard to get him to 469 00:22:44,480 - > 00:22:45,359 come out of his bedroom. 470 00:22:45,440 - > 00:22:48,880 So I'm really appreciative of the fact I spent a lot of time 471 00:22:48,880 - > 00:22:50,480 with him when he was younger. 472 00:22:51,200 - > 00:22:55,920 SPEAKER_01: Caroline, going a few steps forward on your career 473 00:22:56,000 - > 00:22:56,400 journey. 474 00:22:56,559 - > 00:23:00,559 I know that you experienced some particular difficulties when 475 00:23:00,559 - > 00:23:03,039 there have been so many different layoffs uh in tech, 476 00:23:03,359 - > 00:23:05,359 and you were you were part of one layoff. 477 00:23:05,599 - > 00:23:10,000 So I wonder if you would tell us a bit of reflection, how did the 478 00:23:10,000 - > 00:23:15,680 layoff look like for you and the process of going back into the 479 00:23:15,680 - > 00:23:16,480 workforce? 480 00:23:16,799 - > 00:23:17,440 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know. 481 00:23:17,519 - > 00:23:18,480 I'm glad you asked about that. 482 00:23:18,559 - > 00:23:22,480 So it's it's it's a really interesting point and one that I 483 00:23:22,480 - > 00:23:23,599 was quite shocked at the time. 484 00:23:23,680 - > 00:23:26,079 And I know a lot of people have been made redundant over the 485 00:23:26,079 - > 00:23:26,559 last few years. 486 00:23:26,720 - > 00:23:29,359 We've all seen those heartbreaking LinkedIn posts 487 00:23:29,359 - > 00:23:31,599 where people are just worrying about paying their bills. 488 00:23:31,680 - > 00:23:35,680 And so yeah, I was at a big tech firm and they decided to remove 489 00:23:35,680 - > 00:23:39,519 the whole of the customer's success function for various 490 00:23:39,519 - > 00:23:39,920 reasons. 491 00:23:40,079 - > 00:23:42,480 So it wasn't just a personal thing, it was that the whole 492 00:23:42,480 - > 00:23:44,640 team globally were removed. 493 00:23:44,880 - > 00:23:48,400 It was, you know, obviously being made redundant, as anyone 494 00:23:48,400 - > 00:23:49,759 will know, is is horrible. 495 00:23:50,000 - > 00:23:53,920 You feel worried and insecure, you lose your work family, you 496 00:23:53,920 - > 00:23:58,160 lose your security, you, you know, it's it's not just losing 497 00:23:58,160 - > 00:23:59,839 a job, it's it's so much else. 498 00:24:00,079 - > 00:24:03,599 And certainly myself and one of the other uh mothers who were 499 00:24:03,599 - > 00:24:08,000 laid off, we'd always been quite good at interviews, so we 500 00:24:08,000 - > 00:24:10,799 thought, and had never really struggled to get a job. 501 00:24:10,880 - > 00:24:13,839 But obviously, we were going back into a marketplace which 502 00:24:13,839 - > 00:24:17,279 was highly competitive, a lot of very senior people were being 503 00:24:17,279 - > 00:24:21,359 laid off, and so for every job that came up, there was so many 504 00:24:21,359 - > 00:24:24,640 more applicants, and you were competing again against people. 505 00:24:24,720 - > 00:24:28,079 So, say for example, you were applying to an HR tech, there 506 00:24:28,079 - > 00:24:30,640 were other people who had all that background in that 507 00:24:30,640 - > 00:24:34,400 particular vertical, and they might even have been, you know, 508 00:24:34,480 - > 00:24:36,880 I was going for sort of manager roles and I was competing 509 00:24:36,880 - > 00:24:38,880 against people who had been in VPs. 510 00:24:39,200 - > 00:24:41,519 It was very, very competitive. 511 00:24:41,759 - > 00:24:45,039 I think in that period of time, I probably did somewhere between 512 00:24:45,039 - > 00:24:49,200 30 and 40 interviews, some, you know, up to certain kind of 513 00:24:49,200 - > 00:24:49,519 levels. 514 00:24:49,680 - > 00:24:52,960 I was absolutely exhausted and just drained. 515 00:24:53,039 - > 00:24:56,400 And luckily, I had my colleagues who were all looking for jobs, 516 00:24:56,640 - > 00:24:59,759 and uh, you know, I was able to kind of message them and go, Oh 517 00:24:59,759 - > 00:25:00,880 my god, are you having a tough? 518 00:25:01,119 - > 00:25:03,359 And and a little a lot of them were as well. 519 00:25:03,599 - > 00:25:07,519 I don't know whether this was coincidence or again, it's not 520 00:25:07,519 - > 00:25:11,200 just down to, you know, I guess age, which I'm going to talk 521 00:25:11,200 - > 00:25:14,400 about, but also it seemed like a couple of the guys that were 522 00:25:14,400 - > 00:25:17,039 looking for jobs seemed to get roles a lot more quickly than 523 00:25:17,039 - > 00:25:17,920 the woman. 524 00:25:18,079 - > 00:25:21,440 And I don't know if that was just coincidence or whether 525 00:25:21,440 - > 00:25:23,599 there was, you know, men are more employable. 526 00:25:23,680 - > 00:25:24,799 I'm I'm not sure. 527 00:25:25,119 - > 00:25:28,559 But certainly what I found was with a lot of the interviews, I 528 00:25:28,559 - > 00:25:32,720 was being initially screened by a lot of quite young people, as 529 00:25:32,720 - > 00:25:35,279 is the way, you know, maybe someone in HR who's screening 530 00:25:35,279 - > 00:25:38,319 you before you'll go through to a next round. 531 00:25:38,400 - > 00:25:40,799 And a lot of them were were super young. 532 00:25:41,039 - > 00:25:45,599 And I certainly felt, and it it was a quite a pattern that I saw 533 00:25:45,680 - > 00:25:48,559 that you know, the younger they were, the the quicker I I was 534 00:25:48,559 - > 00:25:52,160 probably dismissed out of that work process, even though on 535 00:25:52,160 - > 00:25:55,200 paper I was absolutely 100% right for the role. 536 00:25:55,440 - > 00:25:59,039 And I think even with jobs that I was applying to where AI 537 00:25:59,039 - > 00:26:02,000 technology was probably scanning the CV and giving me a 10 out of 538 00:26:02,000 - > 00:26:06,319 10, when I actually got in front of a person, again, it was a bit 539 00:26:06,319 - > 00:26:06,720 confusing. 540 00:26:06,799 - > 00:26:08,559 It was like I'm perfect for this role. 541 00:26:08,720 - > 00:26:11,599 Why is this not happening? 542 00:26:11,920 - > 00:26:15,759 So, you know, liaising with other people, it just did feel 543 00:26:15,759 - > 00:26:19,839 that sort of there's this bias towards taking people maybe in 544 00:26:19,839 - > 00:26:23,839 their 20s and 30s into tech and that perception that that's the 545 00:26:23,839 - > 00:26:26,319 kind of age that you should be looking at. 546 00:26:26,640 - > 00:26:29,839 And I think, you know, I have seen a few LinkedIn posts 547 00:26:29,839 - > 00:26:32,480 aligning with this as well when I was constantly sort of 548 00:26:32,480 - > 00:26:36,400 scouring for jobs, that people don't realize actually the value 549 00:26:36,400 - > 00:26:40,400 that someone who is a little bit older in their career can bring 550 00:26:40,400 - > 00:26:41,119 into a team. 551 00:26:41,279 - > 00:26:44,559 So, for example, your children are older, so you're going to be 552 00:26:44,559 - > 00:26:45,279 more available. 553 00:26:45,359 - > 00:26:48,160 You your kids are walking to school and back, you're less 554 00:26:48,160 - > 00:26:50,799 likely to be unwell because you've had all those bugs when 555 00:26:50,799 - > 00:26:53,440 the kids are younger, so you're kind of a bit more resilient. 556 00:26:53,519 - > 00:26:55,839 Like, for example, in the job, I've been in my current role for 557 00:26:55,839 - > 00:26:56,319 seven months. 558 00:26:56,400 - > 00:26:58,960 I've had like maybe one or two sick days. 559 00:26:59,200 - > 00:27:02,000 I think also you're a little bit more emotionally resilient. 560 00:27:02,240 - > 00:27:06,480 So when I was in my 30s, I would take things very personally, or 561 00:27:06,720 - > 00:27:09,599 if my manager says something to me I didn't like, I would stew 562 00:27:09,599 - > 00:27:09,839 on it. 563 00:27:10,000 - > 00:27:13,599 So now I just, you know, I'm very good at separating the 564 00:27:13,599 - > 00:27:16,960 emotions from from work and not not kind of you know 565 00:27:17,279 - > 00:27:19,119 overthinking things. 566 00:27:19,359 - > 00:27:22,400 I think also, especially if you're managing a team, you can 567 00:27:22,400 - > 00:27:25,039 just bring that kind of experience and maturity. 568 00:27:25,279 - > 00:27:27,839 You're not competing with the you know, the people in your 569 00:27:27,839 - > 00:27:31,119 team, you're there to nurture them, you're not going to bring 570 00:27:31,119 - > 00:27:33,440 your ego into that, you know, you're you're really there to 571 00:27:33,440 - > 00:27:34,160 make them thrive. 572 00:27:34,319 - > 00:27:37,279 So I think in that sense, you're really valuable to the business 573 00:27:37,599 - > 00:27:41,119 because I'm not interested in politics, I'm interested in 574 00:27:41,119 - > 00:27:45,119 success, I'm interested in team achievement, I'm interested in 575 00:27:45,279 - > 00:27:48,640 really good collaboration with uh with my colleagues and seeing 576 00:27:48,640 - > 00:27:50,160 my team really succeed. 577 00:27:50,319 - > 00:27:53,920 So, for example, since I I joined Contentful, two of my 578 00:27:53,920 - > 00:27:56,720 team have just been promoted this week, which I'm super proud 579 00:27:56,720 - > 00:27:56,799 of. 580 00:27:57,519 - > 00:27:59,279 You know, I'm seeing them thrive, we're hitting our 581 00:27:59,279 - > 00:27:59,839 targets. 582 00:28:00,079 - > 00:28:01,839 That to me gives me a lot of pleasure. 583 00:28:02,000 - > 00:28:03,759 So it's it's not about my success. 584 00:28:03,920 - > 00:28:05,440 Well, my success is their success. 585 00:28:05,519 - > 00:28:09,200 So I I think there's just a lot of, you know, this having adults 586 00:28:09,200 - > 00:28:12,400 in the room can really add a lot to it to a business, you know, 587 00:28:12,559 - > 00:28:16,000 and you need those different age ranges, I think, to to make a 588 00:28:16,000 - > 00:28:18,880 workplace interesting and and dynamic. 589 00:28:20,240 - > 00:28:23,440 SPEAKER_01: The other day I had a conversation with a lady who 590 00:28:23,599 - > 00:28:27,599 mentioned, oh, I'm in my 30s and I'm not a VP yet. 591 00:28:27,759 - > 00:28:28,720 What's wrong with me? 592 00:28:28,799 - > 00:28:30,160 You know, what what's happening? 593 00:28:30,319 - > 00:28:35,359 So I wonder when you reflect to your experience of ageism in 594 00:28:35,359 - > 00:28:40,799 tech, do you think it was more of probably a combination of 595 00:28:40,799 - > 00:28:46,480 ageism because you wanted to enter start like tech, or is it 596 00:28:46,480 - > 00:28:51,200 because you are applying for kind of mid-level managerial 597 00:28:51,200 - > 00:28:54,640 roles and not like C level that maybe people expect it? 598 00:28:54,880 - > 00:28:56,640 Like what what are your thoughts on it? 599 00:28:56,880 - > 00:28:58,720 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I think that's a good point, and that 600 00:28:58,720 - > 00:28:59,759 really resonates as well. 601 00:28:59,920 - > 00:29:02,480 I think because I had that career gap, you know, probably 602 00:29:02,480 - > 00:29:05,359 at this stage of my career, I should I should be higher. 603 00:29:05,599 - > 00:29:07,920 And people probably are thinking, you know, why why is 604 00:29:07,920 - > 00:29:10,240 she not applying for those particular roles? 605 00:29:10,319 - > 00:29:14,079 And so yeah, I mean, I think in that sense, I probably did raise 606 00:29:14,079 - > 00:29:15,599 a few questions around that. 607 00:29:15,839 - > 00:29:20,319 I think now that I'm sort of back into the flow of my career, 608 00:29:20,640 - > 00:29:24,160 I feel much more mentally prepared now to to kind of take 609 00:29:24,160 - > 00:29:26,799 those next steps at some point in the in the next few years 610 00:29:26,960 - > 00:29:28,240 into those sorts of roles. 611 00:29:28,400 - > 00:29:30,880 But I think also this is what going back to what I was saying, 612 00:29:31,039 - > 00:29:34,000 because you have those gaps, you actually miss some of that 613 00:29:34,000 - > 00:29:36,559 natural progression where you build up that internal 614 00:29:36,559 - > 00:29:39,680 confidence within a business and where you can go, right? 615 00:29:39,759 - > 00:29:42,000 I've done all of these roles now, I'm ready for this. 616 00:29:42,160 - > 00:29:45,039 So there is something to be said about continuity. 617 00:29:45,359 - > 00:29:49,680 I've got another friend actually who she was very sort of senior 618 00:29:49,680 - > 00:29:50,720 in a tech role. 619 00:29:50,880 - > 00:29:53,599 She was like head of head of customer success within a 620 00:29:53,599 - > 00:29:54,000 business. 621 00:29:54,240 - > 00:29:58,000 She had to take five years out because she became unwell. 622 00:29:58,880 - > 00:30:00,640 She's experiencing the same thing. 623 00:30:00,960 - > 00:30:02,640 She's trying to get back into role. 624 00:30:02,720 - > 00:30:05,519 She's one of the brightest, most competent people I've ever 625 00:30:05,519 - > 00:30:06,079 worked with. 626 00:30:06,319 - > 00:30:09,200 And she's struggling to get a job because people are just 627 00:30:09,200 - > 00:30:11,920 questioning that gap, questioning where she's been, 628 00:30:12,000 - > 00:30:14,240 even if you've got a very legitimate reason. 629 00:30:14,400 - > 00:30:18,160 So yeah, I think it is it is tricky to have those gaps, and 630 00:30:18,160 - > 00:30:20,559 you have to just try and justify them. 631 00:30:21,440 - > 00:30:24,720 SPEAKER_01: I like your value propositions for having adults 632 00:30:24,720 - > 00:30:27,519 in the room, and and what are all the benefits that 633 00:30:27,519 - > 00:30:30,480 potentially older people can bring into the workforce? 634 00:30:30,720 - > 00:30:34,400 I wonder what would be your message or some of the 635 00:30:34,400 - > 00:30:37,279 strategies for hiring managers? 636 00:30:37,519 - > 00:30:42,400 How can they be more intentionally inclusive of 637 00:30:42,960 - > 00:30:47,039 people with gaps in their careers or CVs and especially 638 00:30:47,039 - > 00:30:51,680 women who might be aging and then want to enter or re-enter 639 00:30:51,839 - > 00:30:52,720 the workforce? 640 00:30:52,880 - > 00:30:56,640 Uh, you're also in a hiring manager position. 641 00:30:56,720 - > 00:31:00,799 So, what is some of your tips for hiring managers in 642 00:31:00,799 - > 00:31:01,200 particular? 643 00:31:01,359 - > 00:31:04,799 And then after we can probably go, what are the tips for women 644 00:31:04,799 - > 00:31:07,359 who are trying to enter the industry back? 645 00:31:08,160 - > 00:31:09,359 SPEAKER_00: I think that's a good question. 646 00:31:09,519 - > 00:31:14,319 And I I I think it's it it possibly be rethinking a little 647 00:31:14,319 - > 00:31:17,119 bit about the types of questions that you're asked in in an 648 00:31:17,119 - > 00:31:17,599 interview. 649 00:31:17,759 - > 00:31:21,680 So perhaps there should be some more questions around, you know, 650 00:31:21,920 - > 00:31:25,200 what can you bring to the role in terms of how you would manage 651 00:31:25,200 - > 00:31:29,519 a team from maybe your experience or from an emotional 652 00:31:29,519 - > 00:31:32,319 side rather than the questions can be very formulaic. 653 00:31:32,640 - > 00:31:37,440 So thinking a little bit wider around that uh the human side of 654 00:31:37,440 - > 00:31:39,680 what someone's bringing to a role rather than just taking the 655 00:31:39,680 - > 00:31:41,920 boxes of what they've done in their career. 656 00:31:42,160 - > 00:31:47,839 I think we all know sort of within businesses, it's you 657 00:31:47,839 - > 00:31:52,559 know, one negative personality type can actually really affect 658 00:31:52,640 - > 00:31:56,480 the whole environment or the whole kind of energy of a team. 659 00:31:56,720 - > 00:31:59,759 So I think having those different dynamics can really, 660 00:31:59,839 - > 00:32:00,960 really make a difference. 661 00:32:01,200 - > 00:32:02,240 I think I give you the example. 662 00:32:02,319 - > 00:32:04,720 I know you haven't watched this program, but the traitors, which 663 00:32:04,720 - > 00:32:08,400 is very, very popular program on TV, and actually, you know, 664 00:32:08,559 - > 00:32:12,240 using that as a kind of lowbrow example, the most interesting 665 00:32:12,240 - > 00:32:14,880 people, you know, everyone gets put in a house and they have to 666 00:32:14,880 - > 00:32:17,519 play a game to see who's the traitor and who's the faithful. 667 00:32:17,680 - > 00:32:20,160 The most interesting personalities in that were the 668 00:32:20,319 - > 00:32:22,559 absolutely the middle-aged and older women. 669 00:32:22,960 - > 00:32:25,119 And you know, the young people were fun as well. 670 00:32:25,279 - > 00:32:28,000 But when when all of those characters were gone, it was 671 00:32:28,000 - > 00:32:29,759 quite flat and one note. 672 00:32:30,079 - > 00:32:32,319 So, you know, that really made me laugh because I was like, 673 00:32:32,400 - > 00:32:34,960 actually, these women, they don't really care about what 674 00:32:34,960 - > 00:32:36,079 people think about them anymore. 675 00:32:36,160 - > 00:32:39,119 Their personalities are just kind of who they are, they're 676 00:32:39,119 - > 00:32:41,519 not trying too hard, they're not worrying about anything. 677 00:32:41,680 - > 00:32:45,359 So I think it's like let's think about those dynamics and and 678 00:32:45,359 - > 00:32:46,960 what makes things interesting. 679 00:32:47,200 - > 00:32:51,839 When I was at PsychCorp, our office manager was in her 680 00:32:51,839 - > 00:32:56,000 mid-60s, and she was the one that brought the whole office 681 00:32:56,000 - > 00:32:56,480 together. 682 00:32:56,640 - > 00:32:57,920 She was hilarious. 683 00:32:58,240 - > 00:33:03,599 She spoke to the CEO in a way that no one else dared to by you 684 00:33:03,599 - > 00:33:06,400 know, telling him off and not tidying up his desk and things. 685 00:33:06,480 - > 00:33:10,319 And she was always bringing in hilarious cakes and games, and 686 00:33:10,319 - > 00:33:14,400 and you know, she really made that office such a fun, warm 687 00:33:14,400 - > 00:33:14,960 place to work. 688 00:33:15,119 - > 00:33:18,720 So I think people need to think about those elements of of the 689 00:33:18,720 - > 00:33:22,079 workplace culture and not just thinking, hey, we just want an 690 00:33:22,079 - > 00:33:26,240 office full of like 20 to 30 year olds, you know, who maybe 691 00:33:26,240 - > 00:33:29,200 are all thinking the same things or competitive or I don't know 692 00:33:29,279 - > 00:33:30,400 at certain stages. 693 00:33:30,559 - > 00:33:32,720 I mean, I'm trying not to generalize because everyone is 694 00:33:32,720 - > 00:33:33,119 different. 695 00:33:33,200 - > 00:33:37,359 Um but yeah, I I think it's think more widely around that 696 00:33:37,359 - > 00:33:41,119 culture and and the type of dynamics you can bring in by a 697 00:33:41,119 - > 00:33:43,440 range of people, range of ages. 698 00:33:44,720 - > 00:33:47,920 SPEAKER_01: I think we have to be aware that currently we have 699 00:33:47,920 - > 00:33:52,079 probably five different generations in the workforce all 700 00:33:52,079 - > 00:33:52,960 at the same time. 701 00:33:53,279 - > 00:33:58,079 People who are 18, 20, straight after school or universities, 702 00:33:58,319 - > 00:34:03,839 and also people who are 65 or even older who may not be able 703 00:34:03,839 - > 00:34:07,839 to retire immediately, let's say due to pensions in the UK. 704 00:34:08,320 - > 00:34:10,880 And it is an interesting dynamics. 705 00:34:10,960 - > 00:34:13,679 But as you said, there is something so amazing about 706 00:34:13,679 - > 00:34:16,320 having all of those generations together. 707 00:34:16,559 - > 00:34:19,760 If we take it through the approach or perspective of, you 708 00:34:19,760 - > 00:34:22,639 know, it's it's amazing, it's beneficial having that 709 00:34:22,639 - > 00:34:26,400 diversity, having some of those interesting characters or or 710 00:34:26,400 - > 00:34:30,400 role models who are who are having life wisdom and, of 711 00:34:30,400 - > 00:34:31,920 course, career expertise. 712 00:34:32,000 - > 00:34:37,119 But it is incredibly different having those maybe perhaps older 713 00:34:37,119 - > 00:34:40,960 people mentoring younger, doing the reverse mentoring. 714 00:34:41,199 - > 00:34:46,320 I remember in the early days of my career, I had a mentor who 715 00:34:46,320 - > 00:34:49,679 was at that time in her 60s, and I was much younger. 716 00:34:49,840 - > 00:34:53,360 And that was the best time for me, just trying to get some of 717 00:34:53,679 - > 00:34:55,760 trying to soak some of her wisdom. 718 00:34:56,000 - > 00:34:58,079 That was incredibly useful. 719 00:34:58,320 - > 00:35:02,400 I'm not sure that I'm having the same opportunity these days 720 00:35:02,639 - > 00:35:05,599 because I don't see that huge diversity in the workspace. 721 00:35:05,840 - > 00:35:09,920 It's an enormous benefit for diversity of our teams, just 722 00:35:09,920 - > 00:35:12,320 bringing so many different generations and perspectives 723 00:35:12,320 - > 00:35:12,880 together. 724 00:35:13,199 - > 00:35:13,920 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely. 725 00:35:14,079 - > 00:35:17,039 And I would say actually, you know, where I am contentful, are 726 00:35:17,199 - > 00:35:18,320 doing that really well. 727 00:35:18,480 - > 00:35:21,280 There's there is a range of people there. 728 00:35:21,440 - > 00:35:24,800 Obviously, with you know, with sales and maybe the BDR teams, 729 00:35:24,880 - > 00:35:27,119 that you you're gonna expect that to be younger. 730 00:35:27,199 - > 00:35:30,559 But certainly in my team, it's it's a range of ages with within 731 00:35:30,559 - > 00:35:31,920 that team as well. 732 00:35:32,000 - > 00:35:35,119 So, and I I think during my interview process there, I never 733 00:35:35,119 - > 00:35:36,239 felt that that was an issue. 734 00:35:36,400 - > 00:35:39,119 They looked at my skills, they looked at what I could could 735 00:35:39,119 - > 00:35:39,360 bring. 736 00:35:39,519 - > 00:35:44,239 So I I couldn't speak more highly of of how they were very 737 00:35:44,239 - > 00:35:48,880 open to just really kind of not even kind of thinking about that 738 00:35:48,880 - > 00:35:49,840 within the process. 739 00:35:50,000 - > 00:35:53,440 So there are businesses that are doing it, doing it very, very 740 00:35:53,440 - > 00:35:56,800 well and and seeing the benefits, and then others that I 741 00:35:56,800 - > 00:35:59,760 certainly felt when I was interviewing that just you know 742 00:36:00,079 - > 00:36:04,079 were put off, or uh, you know, which I was dismissed very, very 743 00:36:04,079 - > 00:36:04,639 immediately. 744 00:36:04,719 - > 00:36:07,519 And I'm sure that was one of the reasons, although they'd never 745 00:36:07,519 - > 00:36:10,320 officially be allowed to say that, but you know, certainly 746 00:36:10,320 - > 00:36:13,840 resonated with when I spoke to other people applying for 747 00:36:13,840 - > 00:36:16,000 similar roles at those particular companies. 748 00:36:16,079 - > 00:36:18,079 They they had the same experience. 749 00:36:18,800 - > 00:36:21,760 SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm glad that experience is behind you, and 750 00:36:21,760 - > 00:36:26,639 and you managed to get yourself back on career tracking in a 751 00:36:26,639 - > 00:36:30,320 company that obviously has a very good culture and values 752 00:36:30,320 - > 00:36:32,400 different types of diversities. 753 00:36:32,639 - > 00:36:36,719 Uh, kind of luckily you you didn't end up with some of those 754 00:36:36,719 - > 00:36:40,400 companies that that are working in that way, which is a kind of 755 00:36:40,400 - > 00:36:43,119 a positive spin on the whole negative experience of 756 00:36:43,519 - > 00:36:45,760 interviewing a lot during layoffs. 757 00:36:46,000 - > 00:36:50,159 As we are wrapping up, I I wonder what would be your kind 758 00:36:50,159 - > 00:36:54,960 of parting words or a message for women who may find 759 00:36:54,960 - > 00:36:59,280 themselves currently in a similar position, either coming 760 00:36:59,280 - > 00:37:04,320 into workforce from taking a break or from being laid off or 761 00:37:04,320 - > 00:37:08,159 just experiencing ageism in interviews. 762 00:37:09,360 - > 00:37:10,639 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's difficult. 763 00:37:10,719 - > 00:37:13,599 I mean, I think it's just about being tenacious and not giving 764 00:37:13,599 - > 00:37:13,760 up. 765 00:37:13,920 - > 00:37:17,119 So, you know, I had days where I I just thought I'm never gonna 766 00:37:17,119 - > 00:37:19,280 get a job, and I just felt really down. 767 00:37:19,599 - > 00:37:22,800 I was thinking, I've got so much to give, and you know, I I 768 00:37:22,800 - > 00:37:24,639 really started doubting my confidence. 769 00:37:24,880 - > 00:37:28,159 I actually invested in an interview coach, which was 770 00:37:28,159 - > 00:37:29,119 really, really useful. 771 00:37:29,360 - > 00:37:33,440 It was it was it wasn't too expensive, but that really 772 00:37:33,440 - > 00:37:37,280 brought my confidence back because uh I realized I was 773 00:37:37,280 - > 00:37:40,000 overcompensating, I was answering the questions far too 774 00:37:40,000 - > 00:37:41,840 long, I was going into too much detail. 775 00:37:42,320 - > 00:37:45,920 This person just managed to bring me right back into you 776 00:37:45,920 - > 00:37:48,559 know how answering these questions in the right way, 777 00:37:48,719 - > 00:37:50,960 being more succinct and going through mock interviews. 778 00:37:51,039 - > 00:37:54,400 So that was, I would say don't be scared to invest in something 779 00:37:54,400 - > 00:37:56,480 like that if you're feeling a little bit lost. 780 00:37:56,719 - > 00:38:00,639 And I think also, you know, just hold out for those companies 781 00:38:00,639 - > 00:38:02,719 that have a good track record. 782 00:38:03,119 - > 00:38:06,800 I would say in the first few minutes of an interview, if 783 00:38:06,800 - > 00:38:09,599 someone is making you feel uncomfortable, you you know 784 00:38:09,599 - > 00:38:11,679 pretty much straight away that that's not the right business 785 00:38:11,679 - > 00:38:11,920 for you. 786 00:38:12,079 - > 00:38:14,639 I I had interviews like that where I thought, is it me? 787 00:38:14,800 - > 00:38:18,079 And then when I look back, I think actually it wasn't me 788 00:38:18,320 - > 00:38:20,239 because I'm interviewing people at the moment. 789 00:38:20,400 - > 00:38:24,079 I go out of my way to never make someone feel that level of 790 00:38:24,079 - > 00:38:26,559 discomfort that some people made me feel in an interview. 791 00:38:26,719 - > 00:38:29,440 So I think it's sort of yeah, look for those positive 792 00:38:29,440 - > 00:38:30,079 experiences. 793 00:38:30,239 - > 00:38:31,199 It's not you. 794 00:38:31,679 - > 00:38:35,199 Invest in yourself, invest in some coaching, and just be 795 00:38:35,199 - > 00:38:37,840 tenacious until you find the right role within the right 796 00:38:37,840 - > 00:38:38,480 company. 797 00:38:39,840 - > 00:38:40,719 SPEAKER_01: I like that one. 798 00:38:40,880 - > 00:38:41,440 It's not you. 799 00:38:41,519 - > 00:38:42,639 Well, it's them, right? 800 00:38:44,239 - > 00:38:46,159 Be tenacious, Caroline. 801 00:38:46,239 - > 00:38:48,159 This was such an enjoyable conversation. 802 00:38:48,320 - > 00:38:51,599 Thank you so much for sharing your experiences with us all 803 00:38:51,599 - > 00:38:52,079 today. 804 00:38:52,559 - > 00:38:54,000 SPEAKER_00: Thank you for giving me the chance. 805 00:38:54,079 - > 00:38:55,119 It's been it's been great. 806 00:38:55,199 - > 00:38:57,519 I I hope it resonates with some people. 807 00:38:59,840 - > 00:39:02,559 SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to today's episode. 808 00:39:02,800 - > 00:39:07,119 I really appreciate you taking time to learn something new and 809 00:39:07,119 - > 00:39:09,840 propel your career in customer success and beyond. 810 00:39:10,000 - > 00:39:13,760 If you like this episode, share it with your colleague, with 811 00:39:13,760 - > 00:39:18,320 your team member, with someone you know needs to hear it today. 812 00:39:18,639 - > 00:39:22,480 We appreciate your support, so please follow us and subscribe 813 00:39:22,480 - > 00:39:26,480 to our channels so many more women can hear about it.