Unresolved.cx - the development conversation managers skip on themselves - Yvette Johns - Maze

Brett Rush: Welcome to Unresolved, the podcast for customer experience leaders by customer experience leaders. In this podcast, we discuss how different companies view and measure their customer experiences, how they manage their teams, and then we dive deeper into the unresolved issues that they're facing today. And we're specifically calling this podcast Unresolved because so many customer experience leaders are testing with AI. They are rebuilding with AI as their foundation, and every one of us have to reinvent everything that we've known about customer experience, systems and processes. You're not alone. So let's do this journey together. Today we have Yvette Johns, a senior support engineer for Maze, which is a user research platform to build customer centric products. Yvette, welcome to Unresolved.

Yvette Johns: Yeah, thanks for having me.

Brett Rush: Of course. Uh, Yvette, I want to open with your background. I want to know, like, you've worked across mailchimp, Vox Media, Zapier, Fly, and now you're at Maze, and these roles they've been spanning frontline, support, support, engineering, management, Devrel. How do you describe what you actually do and how has that changed over time?

Yvette Johns: Yeah, I feel like over the years I've sort of fallen into this bucket more and more of like a jack of all trades. Um, I feel like a lot of the moves that I've made in my career have, have been things that I've done out of necessity. Um, so, like we, we need a support engineer to work on this team and then, like, we need someone to manage this team and then we need like, someone to do Devrel, and. And I think, like, the core of those roles, um, like the core responsibilities of, of what you do in those roles has been what's attracted me. But I think bouncing between so many, even though it's all sort of tangential to support, you become a bit of like a. I, uh, think like a product handyman in a way.

Brett Rush: Sure, absolutely. With you. I feel like this topic is so important to people today and I really want to dive into team and people development. And, uh, you and I have experienced having good and bad managers. I know that listeners are going to get an immense amount of value from this segment here. So can you tell me how you knew that frontline support folks were capable of becoming support engineers even when they didn't see it in themselves?

Yvette Johns: When I first became a support engineer, I'd been working as a frontline agent at mailchimp for, uh, probably about a year or so. And in that time, like, I'd seen other support engineers working, you know, alongside us on the Team and witnessing, I think the complexity of some of the work that they do from the outside. My initial reaction was like, there's no way I can do that. It's so, it's so complicated. And like, it seems like every single question I ask them, they like immediately know the answer, like, how do these wizards do their job? I can't be a wizard myself. Um, and it wasn't until like a, you know, a manager looking to, to find, you know, talent on the team, uh, that they could sort of promote up into this role came to me and said like, I think you can be a support engineer. That I, that I even started thinking of the possibility, um, especially if you're, you know, you have a, you know, a non standard background, um, you know, you're in a sort of like a minority group, um, and you're not used to seeing people like you in these sorts of roles. It could be very hard to sort of place yourself in it. Um, but if someone like comes at you with cold hard facts of like, well, you say you're not doing this, but here are like the 10 different ways in which I've seen you do facets of this job already. Um, you can't really argue against that. You can only sort of say like, okay, well I'm going to believe in the you that believes in me and just do it and see how it goes. Um, and I think for, for folks that I, you know, ended up working with in uh, mentoring and then in guiding into these roles and ultimately like promoting into support engineering roles, um, I saw the same sort of thing, like the same hesitancy of like, I can do this. Um, and in those cases it became a like, well, that person proved to me, so I'm going to prove to them that, that they can do it and I'm going to force them to believe in themselves essentially, um, until they can believe, you know, on their own. So I think that that's kind of how I came to that, that place.

Brett Rush: Yeah, I feel like so many people sometimes they just put all of their entire focus into, uh, into just the work that they do. And they don't even think about the skills that they can bring to the table. They just think about, I know how to do this and that's all I know how to do. And they put themselves in a box. And we're in an era where you can't do that anymore. You can't put your knowledge in a box, your skills in a box. You need to actually get outside that box. While I was growing up. I was taught not to show anyone how to do your job, otherwise you'll get replaced. So as a Manager Back in 2014, I, I realized I was holding others back from, from the absolute potential. It was only when I became a good manager that I could really streamline support operations by coaching others to do the, uh, to do that hard work and make those difficult decisions that our CX team became efficient at the cost of my pride and my own work. Uh, and as a manager, it's so important to see that potential on your team and our them to accomplish things that they never thought that they would be able to do.

Yvette Johns: Yeah, I agree with that. And I think another aspect of individuals who are sort of like keeping knowledge to themselves, keeping skills to themselves, um, one of the things that you sort of deprive yourself of is gaining that additional experience that you can only get from showing other people how to do what you do. Um, because rather than just like doing the job there, I think there's a separate fat like facet of skills required to be able to explain to another person something that, that to you comes naturally but you know, you don't quite realize is actually pretty, pretty complex. I, I think that's like something that we in support learn to do because like we do that all day. Like we answer tickets, we, we explain like all of the complicated nuances of these products and like these services that, that we support. Um, and we have to do it in so many different ways. But then like also taking that and teaching another person how to teach someone else is like, it's, it's such a different skill set. It requires so many other things. And if you're, if you're sort of like siloing yourself and you're not, you know, expanding knowledge, then how are you going to reach the point where you can effectively guide people and you can be seen as a good manager when, when you're not taking that first step.

Brett Rush: Kind of shifting gears here. So for listeners back in 2017, 2018, something like that, that's whenever I met Yvette and uh, speaking at the Support Driven conference. And if you haven't gone to a Support Driven conference, highly suggest getting a ticket. Just go and uh, you'll meet, it's so fun people and you'll make connections. Just like I connected with the Yvette nearly 10 years ago, which is wild. And uh, and here we are. I'm sorry I said that. Um, oh, Yvette, as a frequent conference speaker in 2023, you spoke, uh, you spoke about people that have technical acumen versus technical knowledge. I'm curious, can you break that down for me?

Yvette Johns: Yeah, so, so one of, one of the things that, that I sort of had to think a lot about, um, as a manager of, of like, people who are in a more technical role, um, is sort of like, especially like in the role that I was in at mailchimp, where not only did we, we handle like, escalations, but a big part of our role was in educating the people who did the frontline support, being able to answer their questions. Some of them highly complicated on the fly, like, some of them in support channels that require sort of like an immediate, um, response. And so you kind of have to balance, like how in depth do I go explaining this topic, um, and if this person's in like a chat, for example, how, how do I, like, boil this down into a format that they can, you know, they can absorb within like 30 seconds, hopefully, and like, they can understand. And so I think a big part of that I realized over time is that looking for people that I wanted to bring on my team, the amount of knowledge that they had was not as important as what I later sort of, you know, defined as like, technical acumen. And so like, acumen is for me the ability to understand complex technical systems, to be able to simplify them into core concepts, to like, break something down to like, simpler components, um, versus like someone just having rote knowledge of a subject, essentially. Like, I have a book worth of information in my brain and, um, especially as we're, you know, we're moving forward into times when there are more and more platforms out there that are meant just for housing knowledge. Someone who just knows information is just not as effective as a person who knows what to do with that information and knows where to find that. And so, uh, I think, like, how knowledgeable a person became like, vastly less, uh, important as something that I was like, looking for within candidates. And then also way more important in terms of like, what I would focus on when training individuals, uh, from like a more junior role into a senior role is like, even if I don't explain to them exactly how a thing, you know, all the information about, like, how this thing works, if I can show them, I guess, sort of the logic behind, like, the functionality and I can explain to them how these systems broadly work, then they can like, take this and they can apply it to, to everything else. And, um, if they can learn that instead, then like, that person will be way more effective in this role, especially as they're, they're Taking on like opportunities to mentor other people.

Brett Rush: So I want to shift gears a little bit just thinking how like managing people in the age of AI. So when you think about rapidly growing teams, many times managers are looking for new tools that can alleviate that time consuming work of managing people because they're operational managers, they're not just people managers, they're also in charge of doing work as well. So let's imagine that there's a version of AI that could help managers m develop their people better. What would that actually look like if it existed?

Yvette Johns: Yeah, I think a version of AI for that would, would be the one that takes like the, the people element out of what it's, you know, what it's centering on. Um, I think like humans are so complicated and sort of like the relationships between them are so complex that really there are some situations that, that can only be handled from the perspective of like a human, like only a human is going to be able to understand the nuances of, of what emotions are happening and like maybe a complex um, you know, conversation that you have to have about performance. Like only you as that manager is, are going to have all of the context, like the historical context about who this person you're managing is, what they have gone through, um, what they're, they're currently attempting to do in terms of like improving their performance. Like all of those things. Like it's, it would take you an eternity to sort of like boil that down into a prompt to ChatGPT or to Claude. Um, and you as a human, like, like a large language model is only really going to be able to form um, like an opinion or advice on something based on what humans have told them. And however, like, however biased that information is is also going to like color the, the, the responses it gives you. And it's always going to be sort of passed through this like positive filter. Like it's always going to tell you what you, you probably think you want to know based on how you've asked, even asked the question. And so like I think it should focus on the other aspects that you, that uh, like computers are just good at helping you with like at developing processes and like refining things, at like you know, boiling down data, at helping you stop being sort of like getting yourself into analysis paralysis. So, so giving you, getting you past that hurdle rather than thinking for you, especially when it comes to humans. So I would say like anything that involves behavior, anything that invol, like how do I have this conversation, maybe get it to you know, recommend some human created materials and then like go read those things.

Brett Rush: Yeah.

Yvette Johns: From other humans that know probably more than what this computer is talking about when it comes to like, you know, how, how other humans behave. Um, and then use it for all of the other fiddly stuff that is just like taking up your time, um, or like taking up the time that you could have spent focusing on how to manage people rather than managing processes and.

Brett Rush: Right. Yeah. You know, I, I have concerns, I have concerns in the age of AI that companies will start to say managers can handle more people because there are more tools out there so you can do less work and manage more people. But honestly it's still going to be less effective. Like over the last year, AI note takers, transcribing services, they've gotten much better. And connecting them to Claude, connecting them to Slack, Notion, whatever that helps managers gather context and log aspects that were missed during one on ones. Something I caution managers about during my advisory sessions is trying to automate the entire management process because in theory you can take every action your direct report recorded in Slack or Notion or whatever, measure it against the skills and competency matrix, record their sentiment changes during one on ones. And now performance reviews are based on numbers and boxes they've checked. I can foresee companies requiring this style of management in the AI computed era.

Yvette Johns: Yes.

Brett Rush: Simply to create the same level of operators across every division in their company and sorry to go on a tangent.

Yvette Johns: No, it's fine.

Brett Rush: I just have concerns that rapid growth companies will lose the heart and soul that powers true team development while letting AI make robotic decisions that humans should hold tight to.

Yvette Johns: Yeah, I agree with all of that. I think I saw an update, I can't remember what company it was, um, about a week or two ago where they'd mentioned, um, very proudly that like we're going to a, something like a 12 or a 16 to 1 ratio for managers. And I'm like, that's, that's wild to me.

Brett Rush: Yeah.

Yvette Johns: And I, and I think it's because like, well you're, you're assuming that at all times every person on this manager's team is going to require the same amount of effort. And that's just never true. Like you'll have some times where you know, if you manage like say six people, you might have a month where three of those people are perfectly fine. They're at sort of baseline and then like the other three people are struggling and so you have to put in more with those three people and then you might have another month where maybe something changes in the queue. Like it's not even, you know, an aspect of, of, you know, any of, of these direct reports, like standard behavior, but like something has changed in the queue. It's, it's wild. Maybe you have a lot of incidents that have cropped up and now you have, you know, four or five out of those six people who, who are struggling. They're all struggling with different things. And that's not even taking in, in the fact that like, what if they're personal things happening with the, these people? Um, what if there are changes in the, the goals that you have created as a company? And so like now all of these people have to change what their, you know, um, what their own goals are and what they're working towards. And maybe the goals that they had previously had nothing to do with those. And so now their motivation is shot and they, they feel like they're not as effective even though just yesterday they were like above the bar. And so like putting a manager in that situation where now potentially he has, you know, two or three months where 90% of his team is needing more from him. And uh, that already is like, if you have a team of like 16, like 12 people that you have to, you don't have time for that and then you're supposed to do other things. It's, it's not just about you managing people, otherwise you, you have other responsibilities too. It's crazy. It's. I think it's crazy. I mean, just because it's possible doesn't mean that it's something that you, you should do. And then like, you know, and then also making a change like that, um, now as the leader, like the overarching leader, you have to think about like, what are the big consequences of it? Well, big consequences. People leave now, now you don't have that ratio because you just don't have all those people. So.

Brett Rush: Yeah, yeah. I mean this is a great warning for anybody listening that you should ask, if you're going through the interview process, you should ask how many directs to a manager are there or what the expectation. That way, you know, whether you're going to be computed by AI or actually be able to have a heart to heart with your manager and look at true growth in the future. Yeah, let's focus inward a little bit. So, so many times managers and leaders, they're too busy to focus on their own development, especially folks in cx because our focus is always on other people. Right. And even if managers have interviewed a thousand people, they're not even thinking about questions that they would be asked or how they would even answer them themselves. So I want to focus on you and your development. And you've spent years asking your direct reports, what do you want? What do you, what do you want to do? Like, what are you afraid of? So when did you realize you never asked yourself those same questions?

Yvette Johns: I think I realized that after like, I finally took on a role where I was managing other managers. Um, I think in, in that position, uh, that I had to spend so much time helping those managers learn how to have those types of conversations with those people while like with their own Dirk reports, while simultaneously having those conversations with them. And you know, over time I, you know, I would stress the importance of like, you have to think about your own path forward. And it wasn't until I, I left that role that I realized like, wow, I've never had that conversation with myself. And also anytime my manager tried to have those conversations with me, like, I would, I would talk about them a little bit and then every single instance my focus would go back to my own people. Um, and I think it was after I left that role that I, I really thought like, what, what is it that I feel, you know, might be, lack or missing from what, what I'm getting out of, like the recent roles that I've gone through. Like I, I took on this role to manage managers, which is absolutely what I wanted to do. But was it really what I wanted to do? Was it what I enjoyed the most about, um, the work that I did maybe in like the earlier roles before I went into, to leadership? Um, and so I think that's what sort of like, drew me to like, maybe I should not be a manager for a while. Like, maybe I should be an IC for a little bit.

Brett Rush: At a previous company, we had a stipend for professional development. I found resources for my team to use their stipend. And uh, I would also bring it up during one on ones. You know, I think it's. For me it was really to check the box, like I'm on that person to make sure that they're going to focus in on how to, how to use that stipend. But most didn't use it. There was one person on my team that actively used 100% of it every time. And I was proud of them. And I didn't, I would even say, hey, they were able to do this, but it was in a different capacity. And sometimes it all came down to I don't know how to use it. And, and the same goes for me as being a Director at managing managers. Uh, I would find courses that would have checked the boxes, but I can't say that they would have been beneficial. I would have been able to say, yeah, use the stipend, but at the end of the day, I didn't want to just take a course. To take a course and no certification, no, no enrichment, I would say, is what I would have gotten out of it and also got into this analysis paralysis. I couldn't make a decision on where to use a stipend, so I didn't. So I didn't focus on my professional development. And there were so many cases where I just felt like I needed to push my managers, my directs to, to use theirs. But then I never focused in on myself.

Yvette Johns: Yeah, that. That makes perfect sense. I, I think I also, like, I would always, like, have the, the conversation of like, well, what do you, what do you want to do? And you know, and, and also, like, think about how that's different from what you think you're good at doing. Um, and I think a lot of it's because, like, for, for a long time, I, I'd mentioned earlier, I kind of like, fell into these roles because I was needed in those roles. And, um, I, I wanted my direct reports to be able to steer their path forward as, as much as possible, especially for the ones that, that were managers of, of other individuals and teams. Um, because I, I felt after a while that, like, wow, maybe I, I don't feel like I'm steering the ship so much. And I. And I think it was in those conversations that I realized that more and more of, um. Well, I think I'm good at leading people and I'm. I think I'm a good manager and people that I manage tell me I'm a good manager. But in instances where I do sort of like, decide I'm going to use, you know, personal development, you know, funds, where does, where does my interest always go? Well, it always goes into something technical and not at all about management. Unless, you know, unless I as a manager am like, trying to accomplish something specifically for my team, the topic that

Brett Rush: remains unresolved is revolving around the manager that focuses on themselves. And so for the manager listening right now, who is completely burned out from pouring into their team with nothing coming back to them, what would you tell them?

Yvette Johns: I would say take time to experiment and take time to really analyze what is it about your job that you enjoy the most, Even if you are. Are given constant feedback that, like, you're a fantastic leader, like, you should be moving up As a manager, like, you know, leadership is a thing that you're, you're made for. When you stop and you think about leadership, um, maybe think about what it is about that, that draws you to it, if, if it is something you decide to pursue. Like, for example, when it, for me, when it comes to people, management, I realized that it wasn't really the, you know, like the performance conversations and stuff like that that I enjoyed the most. It wasn't being the manager that I enjoyed. It was helping people. I think at its core, like, knowing that, like, beyond just me answering support tickets and telling someone how to work around a bug that on. In their account, um, it was the interacting with the people that I enjoyed the most. It was showing those people what I think is their potential and like helping and seeing them over time, like, realize that like, oh, I do have this potential. There's all that part. And so, um, I'm like, well, I don't even necessarily need to be a manager. Like, I don't need to be someone's boss to do that. And so I think thinking about like, what are sort of the building blocks of these roles that you enjoy the most and how can you sort of like, take that and like, find something that meets all of those, you know, those sort of like, joys of yours?

Brett Rush: Something that I came across quite a few times different startups that I worked at is people were pushing to become managers. But my question was, do you want to manage people? And the answer was no, I want to make more money. And, and my response would be, you can not manage people and still make a lot of money, but it's a skill that you're going into. That's like saying, uh, I don't ever want to be an engineer, but then that's where the money is made. So I'll become an engineer and hate my life. Like, that's. You don't do that either. If that's like, if somebody in support, usually their, their forte is not in sales and cold calling it, you wouldn't just go into that because you feel like, oh, there's the money, but I can't, I wouldn't be able to stand what I'm doing. Uh, so there's definitely a balance. And if, uh, if, if management, managing other people and pour yourself into their, their goals and what they want to do with their life, like, if that's not your forte, then you shouldn't jump right into that either. But then also on top of that, where do you enjoy spending your time? Yvette? I appreciate you taking the time to speak with me today. And I love our conversation on managing people of CX. And you can connect with Yvette on LinkedIn, and that link is in the description below. Is there anywhere else that people can find you?

Yvette Johns: Yeah, I would say LinkedIn's probably the best, uh, place. I have a website, Coravel Co. Um, probably just like random ramblings, things that I enjoy, stuff that I've, I've built. Um, but otherwise, like, feel free to hit me up on LinkedIn. Chat with me. Even if you just want to chat about yarn and crochet and nothing about CX ever, maybe even Pokemon. Feel free. M Come talk.

Brett Rush: Well, that wraps up today's episode. Subscribe to hear more incredible stories in this era of unresolved. Have a great day and a productive week.