How great CFOs master the unknown, with Diya Sagar

Diya Sagar: Finance. Although it's the same kind of function in different companies, the role can vary quite a lot. Like you have to have, you have to be the financial steward of the business. You have to be um, dealing with a lot of sensitive topics that impact the future of the company. But ultimately like we've talked about in a hit driven business or even in cash burning businesses, um, you're constantly thinking about different topics. Even if the end results are across different companies, uh, is the same.

Anthony: So I'm delighted today to be joined by Dia Saga. She is the CFO at ah, AWA Studios. Diya, uh, thanks so much for being with us today. Uh, do you want to just introduce yourself to our audience, tell uh, people a little bit more about yourself?

Diya Sagar: Sure, Anthony. It's really good to be here today, um, to talk about some of these topics. So my name's Diya. I am um, the CFO of AWA Studios. AWA stands for artists, writers and artisans. We are a media and entertainment startup and the core function of what we do is we publish graphic novels and comic books and we develop those into films and TV shows in Hollywood.

Anthony: Yeah, that's really fascinating stuff. Yeah, I mean there's never a dull moment there.

Diya Sagar: Uh, no, of course. I think whenever you're in a creative business there are always new things happening, there are new ideas, new stories to tell. So it's always fun.

Anthony: Yeah, and that's sort of um, I guess that kind of takes us into like what we're going to talk about today which is that dealing in kind of industries like this where it is obviously very dynamic, very creative. Um, as much as that is true, you it's not always like um, it's not as steady and reliable perhaps or at least that's the perception of it sometimes, at least in terms of rev as um, revenue is concerned. Um, okay, so let's talk about that then. So we want to talk, you mentioned in um, our intro about it being sort of hit driven business model. Can you sort of unpack that for us a little bit and talk about what makes that different from more traditional or recurring revenue models?

Diya Sagar: So what I mean by that is we don't have recurring revenue. Um, a hit driven business model is essentially um, the revenue profile is lumpy and the timing of revenue can be unpredictable and inconsistent. So as we think about year to year of AWA or similarly other hit driven businesses, particularly in the media space, um, we can move from year to year when uh, the revenue profile can change significantly. So hit driven specifically for us means I mentioned how we are developing films and TV shows, uh, based on the graphic novels that we produce. We don't always know the timing of when those films end, TV shows are going to come through. And so we may think sometimes it's going to come in a particular quarter or a particular year. But because we're subject to Hollywood timing, essentially we don't necessarily have control. And so that can swing quite widely. Um, and what makes that so different from, uh, recurring revenue models is that we just don't have contracted revenue which typically provides some level of future visibility. So I might think, okay, next month we've got a, you know, at the moment our plan is next month AWA has our first film going into production. But, uh, that could also change at any point because that is the way our industry works.

Anthony: Yeah, and I imagine, you know, in finance, which is all about kind of, you know, for a lot of people in the CFO role, I suppose there's a certain amount of like, you know, it's all about forecasting, planning ahead, knowing what's coming, um, that's quite a different experience. And I imagine for some people who are in this background, that almost seems like, gosh, how would you cope with that? Ah, you know, in a sense, like, I wonder, like, what's your perception on it? Like as somebody with, you know, in finance, a numbers person, um, do you feel excited in this environment or were there times where initially it was kind of like you had to adapt? What, what do you think?

Diya Sagar: I mean, of course, I think most finance people, we like stability, we like predictability and certainty and actually we, in a heat driven environment, we have the opposite of that. So everything's always very uncertain. And what you've touched upon is really what I describe as one of the biggest challenges with operating in this kind of environment, which is when it comes to forecasting, planning one year to the next can be very difficult. Um, so oftentimes that means that actuals can miss budget more often than I would like. Um, and then that means having to present these numbers to the board and explain why the company is still on track long term, even though in the short term we may not be tracking to precisely where we said we would. So that's a really big challenge that you have to constantly manage. And I think that means, I think it requires from the CFO role to just be empathetic towards the business. It's not that there's any particular team or there's any particular reason why reason, uh, within our control that things are, that timing is changing and I think the other big challenge that I would describe as it relates to this hit driven business is when it comes to fundraising investors and that's particularly venture capital and private equity investors. They don't typically like this kind of business model. They do like the recurring, uh, cash flow profile that comes with more stable business models, typically software and sometimes AI business models models. And so what that means the implications for us means that we tend to attract strategic investors who understand our model, are already in our industry or those who have long term patient capital and can withstand the short term fluctuations in our financial profile.

Anthony: Yeah, definitely. That's really interesting. So what do you think then? Because this is so fascinating to me because you know, we do a lot of talks on finance lines about what makes, you know, a good CFO or a good finance leader. And it's always stuff like, you know, preparedness and, and you know, thinking ahead and being strategic and all this kind of stuff. And I imagine those though. But then I guess that there are other qualities that we do talk about as well, which I'd imagine maybe are more, become more important in a role that you're in, uh, in an industry that you're in. So maybe things like, you know, agility, uh, being adaptable, being a good storyteller maybe as well. In terms of how you present your arguments, you present the picture of where you are, um, what do you think? Well, what do you think are the, are the sort of qualities that a CFO or a finance leader, finance team needs in this kind of business?

Diya Sagar: Yeah, I think all of those attributes that you just mentioned remain important in the CFO role in any kind of business. Um, I think when you are dealing with uh, an unpredictable business or an inconsistent business, it's important to always be moving along with the business. So when something is changing, you're as close to it as you can. So that means you're not just sitting there reporting and just thinking the numbers is not the output. You have to be as close to the inputs as possible. Being nimble, uh, I think it requires you to have just more of an ongoing, um, and communicative uh, relationship with a lot of the people in the company. And oftentimes as a cfo, I'm faced with a decision of thinking about revenue recognition. For example, the business may want to undertake a particular project at a, uh, particular period of time, which may make revenue very difficult for us in a particular quarter. In finance, we may want to recognize revenue as soon as possible rather than later. But when it comes to a situation like that, I always say do what works best for the business. What is going to maximize uh, revenue and profitability and what is going to help drive uh, us forward in the long term rather than having a short term view. So I'd say overall there's always bearing in mind that you've got to keep the business tracking to its long term profile and just to have the resilience, I suppose to deal with the short term fluctuation.

Anthony: I suppose this kind of hits potentially like a kind of friction point in a way in the sense that, you know there's, there's, I guess we, we hear a lot uh, on, on finance lines about the dreaded cfo. No, just I'm sure you've heard and it's kind of a pet peeve for a lot of Pete guests we have on. They're like, oh, we hate being seen as the, as the cfo, you know, the person who always says no to things.

Diya Sagar: Yeah.

Anthony: Because we always have to be thinking about financial stability and revenue long term. You know, um, do you feel like yourself, like, especially working in like with creatives, you know, creative industries and stuff. Um, is that, have there been times where you felt like, you know, potentially like, oh, well, especially like, you know, oh, someone's haven't had a really great idea or it's a really great plan and it's exciting but I, uh, just can't see this being viable, you know. Is that the kind of conflict you come up against sometimes?

Diya Sagar: Yes. I think when you start at first principles, I always try to understand the opportunity that somebody is talking about. If it's a creative idea, it can sometimes be difficult to understand that opportunity. But really try to get underneath what is it that um, this individual or team or what is it that the business really wants to execute upon and then try to quantify that. Oftentimes creatives, that they may not have the terminology or they may not even necessarily be thinking about the quantifiable impact, but that is your job in finance. It's to be able to essentially uh, put numbers behind those creative ideas and stories. And so I think my first inclination tends to be how can we make this possible? Before I go to. No, let's not do this. It's only really when something is really off course and I think is going to jeopardize the future of the business or really put us at risk. That's when I think we need to slam the brakes down and say, you know, and pivot towards something else. But I always think about other ways of making this opportunity come to life, even if it's particular parts of it, or can we do it in, you know, maybe can we do this in one year's time rather than in three months? So it's trying to make things possible, but without putting the business at risk and trying to think about the long term horizon, uh, and our own success.

Anthony: Yeah. That's really interesting what you've just said there, because that's kind of, it's the opposite of uh, the idea I was talking about, the concept, I was talking about where, you know, there's a perception maybe that the default CFO position is no.

Diya Sagar: Yeah.

Anthony: Whereas actually you're saying no, we're always trying to get to yes, yes, you know, in a way, but we just have to see how that's possible. And it's a rocky road there, you

Diya Sagar: know, And I think because, because we're often in the seat of having to say no, it helps to be able to only use that when you really need to, when something is really off. And I think the more dialogue that you have with other business leaders in the business, people start to understand the role of finance, that actually should help them shape their ideas in a way that will work for finance and the overall business before even coming to you.

Anthony: Yeah, definitely. And I suppose, like what you're saying is, again, this is another talking point that we have a lot is like, um, you know, finance people becoming strategic partners. It's almost a bit of a cliched term at this point, but it's true.

Diya Sagar: Yeah.

Anthony: You know, um, and I guess you're saying, like, in a business like this especially, you know, it's important that we're collaborating and we're talking, you know, like everyone's sort of aligned in that way. Um, which I think is really important. You know, it's always important. But I think you presenting your particular case really highlights that.

Diya Sagar: Yeah, of course. I think that, um, especially with creativity, oftentimes it's even hard to be strategic with creativity because creativity is just a reflection of, uh, humans wanting to tell stories and create incredible art and really express themselves and express an idea. And so even trying to be strategic can be, uh, can be difficult sometimes. But I think the way that I would approach it is, uh, creating frameworks almost of the kinds of creative ideas that work because that then should fit, if that's done well, that should fit with the strategic objectives of the business. And then you can think about the impact on, uh, P and L and cash flows.

Anthony: Yeah. Is it almost an example as well? Not example, sorry, what's the word, uh, a case as well, of kind of looking at, like always looking at who we are. Right. And who our audience are, who we're going to appeal to, who we're resonating with. I suppose that's a, that's a thing as well, isn't it? Um, and also like, I guess that's informed by uh, uh, the hope I suppose is that you populate your business with people who get that vision or they understand who we're appealing to and perhaps they are themselves in a way the audience. You know, a lot of the time

Diya Sagar: I think any company's mission, any, any company's mission is really important and that should attract, you know, employees into the company who want to drive towards that mission. AWA is a creator friendly business. So we always prioritize doing good by creators, ensuring that they can create stories and that they can be rewarded fairly for their work. And so I think that people understand that, but they understand that we also have to make money from the business. It helps to keep people aligned and actually to uh, have those messages resonating with employees throughout the company.

Anthony: Yeah. And um, case of survival as well, you know, we want to keep this going.

Diya Sagar: Absolutely. When you're a private company often. Yeah, private company raising funds, you need to survive.

Anthony: Yeah, absolutely. I mean it's a simple, trite argument, but in a way. But it's true, isn't it? Like, you know, it's literally, you can't, um, you can't argue with that. We want to keep making good work. Uh, we're enjoying what we're doing. Uh, we have to be financially viable, stable and we have to make money, you know.

Diya Sagar: Yes, absolutely. We're a commercial, commercial enterprise at the

Anthony: end of the day I think, you know, there's, there's often an assumption that if a company is losing money that you know something is wrong. What do you think is the, is the difference between strategic investment and unsustainable loss? Where would you kind of draw the line there?

Diya Sagar: So for a company to grow, for a growing business, that company is going to need strategic investment that can be into building product, it can be into hiring people, it can be into building technology or even M and A. And I think of that as uh, a company will burn cash in order to make those investments or take a short term loss. I would distinguish that from a company that is making a loss or burning cash because it's actually running out of cash. So I'd say that's the difference between uh, an unsustainable loss and Strategic investment. And I think the other thing to think about is uh, always thinking about the end goal, which is the return on investment. So in the short term you should be burning cash with the view of generating revenue or growing margin. And over the long term you should see that as if we're burning cash the right way. Are we building asset value and then growing equity value? If neither of those things are true, something may be going wrong. And that's when you know, business may be burning cash for the wrong reasons.

Anthony: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, have you got any examples of that? Like, I mean you don't have to name specific projects or anything, but anything where you thought like where it's kind of, maybe it's been a bit of a loss initially, but it's a long term investment. Are there anything times you can think of in your work?

Diya Sagar: The best example from AWA is something that's happening for us right now which is uh, the way our business works is we make several investments every year into producing graphic novels. And um, only some portion of those will become Hollywood hits. And what we have right now is our first film going into production next month with Apple. And that has taken five years between the initial investment, uh, into the comic book which made a loss at that time. Um, and because you know there's simply. The publishing market just simply isn't big enough uh, to support the revenue levels needed to cover the cost of producing comics these days. Wow.

Anthony: Okay.

Diya Sagar: And finally we have this film going into production which is going to make good on the entire investment, um, as well as other investments that we've made into other graphic novels. So that's really where you see the hit driven business model, uh, coming, coming through. You know, we have this one, one hit that's hopefully going to succeed in Hollywood and actually going to make money for the company. That takes care of several investments that we made into graphic novels, some of which may not make it to Hollywood.

Anthony: And how do you kind of validate that? You know, when you've got like a, uh, something that maybe, you know, is it just the strength of the idea? Like how do you know that that is going to pay off long term? Like what, what is the, you know,

Diya Sagar: I say from look where the creators will always tell you it's the strength of the story. From the finance perspective, it is, I think the strength of the story is a part of it, but a relatively small part. What actually also tends to help is um, we often attach high profile individuals or celebrities from the world of sports and entertainment to particular graphic novels. Either they're involved in promoting it or they write it. Um, and what that does is you have an inbuilt fan base. So when we release the graphic novel or the book into the world, there's already an inbuilt fan base. These individuals often have millions of followers. And that in some ways de risks the project because you know that there's a receptive audience. And then that also tends to get. Helps, uh, to gain traction in Hollywood because it's more likely to get developed into a film and TV show. So of course there are some stories. We don't always necessarily need somebody attached to it from the beginning, but that's one way, uh, that's one thing that really does help us because that means we're already being able to think about audience and revenue from day one.

Anthony: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. What's a fascinating look behind kind uh, of curtain in a way of how just the entertainment business in general, I think, um, because I guess there's probably a lot of that. I mean, it's constant risk, isn't it? It's constantly sort of taking chances on things sort of being like, yeah, we think this is going to fly, but we don't. We can never know. You know, that's the nature of the business that you're in, you know, and all you can do is try and validate it as much as you can, justify it as much as you can. Definitely.

Diya Sagar: And you can't make. You can never make it 100, um, never going to be 100% based on the numbers. The decision will never be 100% based on numbers. And neither will it be 100% based on pure gut feeling, but it's some amalgamation of all of them. And then at the end of the day, what we're doing is like most businesses is you're just trying to use good judgment, whether that's creative judgment or commercial judgment, but it needs to be a mix of both.

Anthony: Yeah. And I imagine that's a lot of cross collaboration within the organization as well. You know, like marketing teams talking about, with you about like what's really resonating on socials and things like that. Um, who are like the people, prominent figures maybe that are like aligned with the, with the brand right now or that's going to resonate with the demographics. Yeah, like there's all. I imagine there's just a, uh. It's incredibly intricate. You know, there's so many different meetings that go into that kind of thing.

Diya Sagar: We often have meetings with, with, you know, several individuals from the company involved Each person representing a different function. Just because you need so many eyes and ears in the room giving their own perspective on projects, it sometimes can be very difficult because it might make it harder to come to a decision. But it's important that you have all perspectives before a final decision is made on an idea.

Anthony: Yeah. And, uh, your part is pivotal. Absolutely.

Diya Sagar: Yeah, I would hope so.

Anthony: Okay, so can you talk us through then? I mean, maybe this, um, ask, you know, maybe this incredibly complicated question. Maybe, you know, and it's not the same for everyone, but like, what does it actually look like to take a business from being like kind of cash burning to maybe being profitable? Like, can you sort of, with concrete examples, what do you think it, what's it, what has it looked like to you when you've seen it work?

Diya Sagar: I would break it down into three key inflection points. The first is you've got to look at the unit economics of the product that you're selling, of the company, the company's product or service that the company is selling. So what that means is, um, for every unit that you sell, if you look at the direct costs, um, involved in selling that product, is it positive? Are you making money just on that basis alone? So that's not thinking about your fixed cost. It's not thinking about your overhead or all your other operating expenses. It's purely focused on the unit economics. And then when you do that across many products or across an entire business line, that becomes your gross profit or your gross margin. So when that can hit positive, when that can go from negative to positive, that means that your unit economics are profitable and you should essentially keep going. You should keep producing and selling that product or service. The second inflection point is when, uh, now you've got to positive gross margin, you've got to cover your operating expenses. And so this is almost like the classic economics principle of reaching economies of scale. So as you produce, uh, more and more, can that business essentially maintain a flat fixed cost base to turn profitable? And for some companies, um, that might be positive EBITDA or net income, depending on how you look at it. So for us that would be, um, when we have our publishing business, which oftentimes may be making a loss, once we get a few books that are profitable, we know we can do more of these books and they'll be profitable. And therefore we should keep going and keep investing in that area. And then when film and television comes through, that may actually be enough to cover actually the overhead and the operating expenses involved with producing that particular Story. And then the third inflection point I would describe as, and this is like the ultimate goal of a business is to generate positive free cash flow every year. Ah, that means along with your operating expenses, you're also covering your capital expenditures or any investments. And that means that your business is uh, producing more cash, generating more cash than it's burning. And that means you can keep basically, you're basically a highly sustainable business and you can then take decisions on, do you need to raise more capital to grow faster? Uh, should you just invest off the balance sheet? But that's when you have a lot of flexibility and uh, when the business is really doing well.

Anthony: Yeah, absolutely. And what does it look like, you know, balancing kind of operational realities with kind of pressure from investors. Can you take us through that?

Diya Sagar: Um, first and foremost you need alignment between the board and investors and the business. So there will always be pressure going in both directions. I think the business will oftentimes be doing one thing. It may not be doing precisely what the board and investors were expecting. And the board and investors of course will constantly, it's their job to put pressure on a business to perform and drive shareholder value. So to balance that, you just need to firstly just communicate regularly. Communicate not only about the ups but also the downs. Make it very clear what's happening inside the company and what are the forces that are affecting, affecting the performance of the business. Um, providing context on the industry helps because what that does is it can show for us like a hit driven business. It isn't just us that is hit driven. There are the major behemoths in our industry, like the likes of Disney, that also deal with the pressures of being in a media environment or being in a hit driven environment. And then I say the final, um, pointers provide results that are traceable. So like I just, uh, gave you the example of one of our graphic novels that is being made into a film when you can show the investors and the board, look, it's taken us five years to get this made into a movie, but we've got there. We said this is going to make a return. We said, this is our business model, it's working. You have to be patient. But imagine what's going to happen in the coming years as we build more and more momentum off more and more of those graphic novels that are just essentially waiting to be made into films and TV shows.

Anthony: Absolutely. So you're like, you know, your entire business model then? I mean, this is really fascinating from my perspective because my partner is hugely into comic books. Uh, both for vintage and kind of modern ones. Is this quite normal now for publishers, you know, people who publish comic books that like the kind of the ultimate goal is actually expanding the IP out into media, other forms of media is this, it's not unique to you. This is kind of like this is generally what the end goal is.

Diya Sagar: I would say that it's uh, not just even unique to comic book companies, but generally IP businesses. So companies in the media space that are creating IP for us, that is comic books and other publishers as well, do the same. But it could even be um, companies that say, are ah, just uh, writing books, creating publishing books and novels, or, or even those that are creating podcasts and even sometimes, you know, companies that are producing magazines. You often want to take a story off the page and create it into. It could BE uh, films, TVs, films, TV shows, documentaries, other things that live beyond the page. And on top of that, at some point you also want to be generating commercial, we call them commercial revenue streams. So that is creating merchandise and toys and accessories and other consumer products that people can buy that relate to that comic book or ultimately film and TV show. Because films and TV is really the way that a mass audience gets to see and gets to learn about that story. So yeah, it's definitely not unique to us. It tends to be a tried and tested model across the entertainment space.

Anthony: Probably very old as well. Showing my ignorance there, I suppose.

Diya Sagar: I mean Disney are the masters at this. They've been doing it for decades and they do it. You know, they're an incredibly successful business because of it.

Anthony: Yeah, like they're even thinking, even when they build a concept of a story, what's this going to look like on someone's shelf? You know, in a, in a.

Diya Sagar: It's. How can they make money in all these different ways? Um, beyond the. Just the original idea.

Anthony: Yeah, it's really, really, really fascinating stuff, definitely. And, and you know, sorry, I know I'm going a bit off track with the finance questions here and I just find it really interesting. Um, so, and, and, and I'm interested how that balances with like, you know, being, um, you know, you talk about being creative first, creator friendly. How does that serve the kind of, um, you know, how do you think that benefits like um, the business from a fin, from a finance leader perspective, you know, um, what do you think it is about being creative first that is ultimately kind of financially viable long term? Does that make any sense to you? Do you understand what I'm asking?

Diya Sagar: Um, I think it's I think, I guess it sounds like what you're saying is, uh, you know, kind of creativity drive financial success. So the, the answer is yes, it's been done time and time again, um, by some of the biggest media companies in the world. So of course it works. I think what it comes down to is almost, um, finding a playbook, if you will. Like, these are the kinds of concepts and ideas that work. It could be, you know, for us it's more young adult and teen stories. For other companies, it could be children's stories, um, or it could be based on particular genres. We publish stories of different types of genres. It could be action, it could be sci fi, it could be drama, it could be romance. Um, and we know that within the industry there is a track record of all of those working. So I'd say we know that it can result in financial success and over time it will. You just have to have the right time horizon in mind. Um, and you have to make, we talked about this, making the right kinds of commercial decisions up front, whether that is, um, something that is marketable, something that um, aligns with consumer tastes of that time. Because we know that consumer tastes and trends are constantly changing decade on decade and with different generations. So also just trying to be current and trying to be contemporary, um, to produce stories that fit what is happening in the world and what resonates with audiences.

Anthony: Yeah, definitely. It's so interesting. Yeah, definitely. I did have a look on the website, um, some of your products. Really, really great stuff. Like, you know, it's so, so eye catching.

Diya Sagar: Yeah, it's always color colorful. Yeah, a deck's always pretty colorful and interesting, which is more interesting than our,

Anthony: than our decks and really distinct, like, you know, art styles and everything. I was just like, wow, this is, this is really, really cool. Yeah.

Diya Sagar: We work with a wide range of artists and writers who have very unique styles that are really their own and they tend to be known for their particular style and based on the story, uh, with different. We choose different creative teams to work on different stories.

Anthony: Yeah, and you have to be very selective, I suppose, about your creatives. But yeah, it was, it was definitely cool. Yeah. Okay, so are there any patterns or lessons that tend to come again when companies make the shift to path to profitability? You know, we talked about some real world examples. Maybe, maybe draw on like some kind of some of the pitfalls that people make as well, especially in a business that you're in as well. Can you maybe give us like a bit of a best case scenario, maybe a Worst case scenario, what are the mistakes that people make? And maybe that's a more interesting question actually. Like what are the common kind of the mistakes and pitfalls that people often fall into in these kind of, you know, hit driven, uh, investment, long term investment heavy kind of businesses like this.

Diya Sagar: I think the biggest pitfall is people tend to use that long term horizon is almost an excuse to make investments into creative ideas that seem really fun or really cool at the time. And if you're just purely going based on this is a great story idea and this is, you know, my gut feeling tells me this will be a success. And actually, you know, let's go ahead with this project because we're not going to find out the results for another five plus years. We can almost hide behind that. I think that's the biggest pitfall because essentially a company can very quickly go into, uh, you know, go into burning cash or making the wrong kinds of investments that are actually never going to pay off. You're just essentially burning more and more or your losses are accumulating in that period while you, before you can even realize that these are not working out and that these are not going to pay off. So I'd say it's very, you know, it's almost, it's very easy to fall down that trap. Um, and I think there are companies that have tried and have failed for that reason because I think they just couldn't balance the right creative and commercial judgment on these kinds of decisions.

Anthony: Yeah, it can kind of become a cover, can't it? Like sort of like for lack of care.

Diya Sagar: Yeah, because your results are not coming very, your results are not going to be shown up in the next quarter. Um, and so you can kind of keep delaying it and saying, oh no, we think this story is going to be made into a film or TV show, um, in a few years time, but not now. And then when the time comes it can feel like it's so far in the rear view mirror that maybe there are new and more exciting projects happening at that particular time. So what we did in the past doesn't really matter, but that's mutually problematic

Anthony: and it's really, I mean we've gone over this like the difficulty of long term strategy in this kind of business. But it's really hard to predict how things are going to fluctuate as well and how tastes are going to shift. I mean some of the things that you know of, of, um, you know, some of the IPs that have really taken off in recent years where you know, I've kind of just been like. I never expected that, you know, like. Like, um. The one that comes to mind. I know it's. Is that, um. Which was based on a graphic series, actually, that. That, um. What's it called? Heated Rivalry.

Diya Sagar: Oh, yeah.

Anthony: Um, where I was kind of like, you know, I was actually really. I mean, maybe somebody who's more clued into these things than I am and how demographics are buying would have said, like, well, that was. No, that was Written in the stars. That was big. But just like, it was just this, like, fairly, like. I mean, I think it had, like, quite a niche following the book series.

Diya Sagar: Yeah.

Anthony: Um, but then it just became, like, the biggest show in the world, and I don't even think the people who were making it, maybe they did expect it. Maybe this is, like, what you're talking about. This was the plan all along, you know, kind of thing.

Diya Sagar: Um.

Anthony: But, yeah, just an example of what it's talking about there. Like. Like, you know, how. How surprising it can be sometimes.

Diya Sagar: Yeah. And I mean, sometimes you can have. The tricky thing is sometimes you can have other books or novels like that or projects that sit in development at studios for years and years before they actually make it to the screen. Um, and sometimes you really don't know, or sometimes something that you think is going to be a success just isn't. Um, and it might not be. It might not. Sometimes it might just be the wrong timing. The heat of rivalry coming out when it did really actually fits in with things that are happening in the world and people's attitudes and what people actually want to see on the screen and the kinds of stories that they find interesting. So oftentimes it is just, uh, for better or for worse. Sometimes it is just a case of needing to hit the market at the right time for it to be as, uh, successful as it is.

Anthony: Yeah. And there are examples of IPs launching and then failing, and then people discover it years later, and then it ends up getting resurrected. There's all kinds of crazy examples where something was maybe too ahead of the curve, and then eventually it comes full circle again. It was just an example of how exciting that the. This kind of business is, in a way.

Diya Sagar: M. It's the pros and cons of it.

Anthony: Right.

Diya Sagar: It's almost like it's the exciting part, but it's also the hardest part. From a.

Anthony: It's the hardest part for you. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Um, what is, um. What do you think are, like, three kind of underrated or underappreciated qualities that you think a c, A good CFO

Diya Sagar: needs to have, um, underappreciated quality. So one I would say is uh, just having balance. I think to your earlier point is we're seen as the person who's always saying no, but actually we have to be quite balanced. We're not always saying no. I think the no's get remembered more than the yeses. Um, but being able to just be level headed and always thinking about the pros and cons on every decision. And so you're not swaying, you know, you're not saying uh, no for the wrong reasons and you're not m saying yes for the wrong reasons either. So constantly being balanced. Another quality I, um, think is also just being patient. Um, as a cfo, you're actually, oftentimes you're not dry. You're not driving the, you're not actually driving the business. There are, you know, other business leaders who are driving their parts of the business and you are dealing with the results. You want to get ahead of everything. You need your perspective heard when it comes to providing input into decisions. But you're not always the person who can impact or control in which direction something actually pans out. You're not the one executing. So being able to be patient and oftentimes giving people the benefit of the doubt if things didn't go precisely the way that they had described it. Um, because at the end of the day, you're just not that person in that seat who's executing. Um, and I think a, uh, third, uh, underappreciated quality is being able to be, um, actually very forthright when it comes to decisions. Because the kinds of decisions that we're making, um, oftentimes affect the future of the company. So when you're making particularly big investments or you're deciding on the strategic direction of the company, these can completely swing a business's future. So being able to be very forthright and very firm in your perspective and what the impact will be on the company's financial position is really, really important.

Anthony: Yeah, definitely. Okay, I'm going to sandwich two questions into one here. Um, I usually ask people about like, what the, what they think sees the future of the role, but I'd also like to hear your opinion on AI I'm sorry, I know, I know everyone talks about it now, but I feel like it just has to be brought up. Is it affecting your role currently? Do you see it as an asset? Do you. How do you see it being, um, you know, an effective part of the CFO role or um, how do you think it is already assisting CFOs?

Diya Sagar: I think it's definitely an asset. I um, think that AI is going to affect multiple parts of the finance function. It could be, you know, it's going to touch reporting, it's going to touch financial planning, it's going to just uh, uh, it's going to impact even things like just monitoring cash and being able to alert you about certain things. Um, it will impact finance teams in that a lot of the day to day work may change. It will go from uh, it'll be less about matching up numbers and constantly reconciling. AI should be able to help you do that if the data that's gone into the models are correct, um, and accurate and it'll be more about thinking about um, what that data is really telling you. So I think we're spending more time on really analyzing and being able to make quicker decisions based on data rather than actually pulling the information together. So I think that's going to be a fundamental shift. I think over time there are so many AI tools out there that people are experimenting with and trying um, in the same way that right now we have say um, a few dominant platforms like QuickBooks or NetSuite. Over time I think we'll have similarly with AI tools that dominate in particular areas that finance that companies will gravitate towards depending on their, their stage of business. So I'm interested to see which are the tools that really succeed and come um, to the forefront. Finance, you know, can finance, although it's the same kind of function in different companies, the role can vary quite a lot. Like you have to have, you have to be the financial steward of the business. You have to be dealing um, with a lot of, you know, sensitive topics that impact the future of the company. But ultimately like we've talked about, in a hit driven business or even in cash burning businesses, um, you're constantly thinking about different topics. Even if the end results across different companies, uh, is the same.

Anthony: Yeah. Fantastic. All right, that's a great point to end on. Thank you so much dear, uh, um, for your time today.

Diya Sagar: Thanks so much Anthony. Really good to talk to you. And that wraps up another episode of the two Cents Podcast. Thank you to our listeners for taking the time to tune in. If you enjoyed this episode and want to hear from more finance leaders like today's guest, please subscribe to the show and leave a rating or review on your favorite podcast app. It would mean so much to me and my guests if you can show them some love and appreciation for sharing so many great insights with us on the show. Again, thanks for listening. See you in the next one.