213. Joppe Quaedvlieg: What Is Descriptive Communication?

Speaker A: Inspiration, success stories, expert advice, strategies, new ideas and amazing conversations. Everything you need to become a great speaker. This is Oscar Santolaia and welcome to Time to Shine. Hello and thank you for joining on this new episode of Time to Shine. We are in the age of employee this engagement, aren't we? Today we'll hear more about a, ah, new method to tackle, uh, this challenge, which is called descriptive communication. For that, our special guest is Jop Kwatvlich. He is a, uh, communication specialist based in Helsinki. He invented a tool to help people dig up from their heart and soul why you do what you do. Yob calls this tool descriptive communication, which is the main tool behind his company, which is called Articula, that helps companies to re engage disengaged employees. Hello, Jop.

Speaker B: Hello. Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker A: Yeah, good to talk with you or also to see you. Uh, once in a while I do these interviews face to face, which is great being with you here in Helsinki. A bit rainy in Helsinki here, beginning of the year. Uh, but please tell us a bit of your journey. I want to hear about your journey to become a speaker and coach.

Speaker B: Thank you so much. You asked me before this question and I had a lot of time to think about it. And I was thinking that in a way, it's kind of a difficult question, right? So where do you start your journey? But, um, I thought that the most interesting part was to. When I got asked the question, what do you want? Myself, I got asked the question, what do you want? By a, uh, person that was very important to me. And I started to stammer and I'm kind of like, shy and I'm like, avoiding the question. And I was very surprised that I avoided the question because normally I like to say the truth. We're Dutch, very direct, right? We go straight for everything. And then I realized that I didn't have an answer. And then I was thinking, if I don't know what I want, then how do I make any decision? How do I speak to people? How do I know where to go? It's actually kind of impossible. The only thing kind of left then is to just kind of meander on in life and just try and keep yourself busy. So I took it upon myself to try and answer the question, what do you want? And it's really, really, really hard, right? So I took it upon myself to learn more about it psychology. I read all the books I could and I practiced a lot. And I also realized that going on a stage is a very good place to start practicing Doing workshops is a very good place to start practicing. Also, um, what happened was that at the same time I was trying to find my career here in Helsinki. And uh, I got, uh, uh, help, um, from Lucan. Do you know Lucan by any chance? Yeah, it's a Finnish Swedish initiative to help people find work. And I would sit there and I, uh, would try and figure out how to make a career. And eventually it worked. And then the people there asked me to come back and present a, uh, motivational speech. And I thought, what is anybody going to do with a motivational speech? People need answers. So I took some of my learnings and I gave a little workshop. And that's how then how my first workshop was born. So I had both this interest in understanding what is it that I want and how do you formulate that. And I started doing these workshops for other foreigners here and immigrants in Finland. Eventually I became for instance, the chief of happiness at a startup which was also all about communication. I uh, organized events which is all about communication. And I started to realize that, hey, wait a minute, everything is communications. For instance, you're in sales plus communication, HR communication. What happens when we get better at expressing ourselves? What if we are able to express not only what we think people want to hear, but what's in our hearts and souls? And in a way, I like to joke about this, but if we use words, we can create something out of nothing and think about what is that? That's a spell. It's magic, right? Comes from this. So if I can, uh, write letters in the sand, these letters don't exist. But I can m. Move you through that. I can move myself through that. If I say if I write in the sand. Pizza on your left, you probably look left, right? Okay. So I learned the power of words. The power on how to move. Sorry, how to move people with this. And it is really powerful. And this is also where the script communication comes in. Uh, kind of a, uh, like how do you do that and how do you teach people that?

Speaker A: Mhm. Yeah. Thank you. Very interesting journey. Definitely. And yeah, you are into. I think many people are listening to this already. Believe on the power of words. Um, indeed. So I know you are very, um, focused these days in employee disengagement. So what does exactly mean that. What does exactly mean when an employee is disengaged and why? This is a big problem.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: So if you have a company or an institution or a hobby, doesn't matter what it is, one way to get people to move, to be active is through the use of words, right? If we're not moving, if we're still, what is happening? So I'll give an example. So let's say that we're in a business meeting with a team and then, uh, people come in late, people are on their phone, people don't come in prepared, people don't know what the topic is about. This is all non movement. So that's what you call it when somebody is disengaged. They're disengaged from work, by the way. This also happens in personal life. So there are people who can sit at home and they're not really doing anything. You know, maybe they eat, maybe they sleep, maybe they watch Netflix, but there's very little movement. They are also disengaged. I'm interested in how do you get people to be engaged? I have some numbers for you that are maybe are interesting, uh, for the people. So, uh, disengaged employees cost the world, and I'm not joking. 8.6 trillion. That is 8, 8.6 with, uh, 11 zeros. That's a lot, right? And this is, by the way, only in work life. And then there are three categories. There is engaged people, not engaged people, and actively disengaged people. The engaged people is about 13%, not engaged is 63% and actively disengaged is 24%. So not engaged is, for instance, a person on their phone in a meeting. They're not present with you, right? To do the thing the company is supposed to be doing. An actively disengaged person might be on purpose sabotaging the work. Maybe they're not delivering something because they're spiteful. Maybe they are hiding tools. Could be really anything, right? Sadly enough, this is very normal. This is very normal. And it leads to people leaving jobs, lower productivity, lower profitability, uh, uh, increased employee, um, what do you call it, turnover, and so on and so on and so on. So the question for me was, because I've saw this happen, I've been there myself, I remember being at work and kind of feeling disconnected. And I liked the work that I did and I wanted to be part of it, but I felt I had nothing to hold on to. I think that's also one of the reasons why there's a lot of burnout nowadays. People are disengaged. And think about it. Work is a form of self expression, at least I think it should be, right? And I think there is a way that we can help people to reengage. And it starts, I believe, with the question, what do you want, why are you here? But a lot of companies might ask this. Their CEOs or their managers might ask this, but do they want to hear the answer? Because if I tell you what I want and need now, you also have to do something.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And I'm afraid that a lot of managers are too busy. And fair enough, don't hold it against you, but that shows that there's something off. And if we can save together 8.6 trillion, imagine what that would do. And then I'm not even talking about the happiness of people having a sense of purpose, being in the right function in the right company, working with the right people, with the right department. And I'm very idealistic and maybe a bit naive, but I think we can make a better world and then we can make a better world through improved communication and use this improved communication to help people that are disengaged to engage again.

Speaker A: Yeah. So sounds, ah, quite in a way, shocking those numbers. How you do end up in this. How you end up in this, um, finding this problem and committing yourself to tackle this problem.

Speaker B: Thank you so much for asking. This is actually my favorite question because I didn't set out to have a company, but I realized about one and a half years ago that I finally was able to answer the question, what do I want? Uh, took me many years. Right, exactly. And I dug deep and I had like workshops and therapy. I did it all to find out what is this? What is it that I want? And I realized that I feel I have a purpose. And the purpose that I have chosen is that I would like to create a better world through improved communication. Currently have three ways, three tools that I chose to use that with. One is I've been writing a book that is about communication. It's coming out soon. Hopefully I'm self publishing it. It's a very esoteric view on, um, uh, communication. Hence that I also use the word spells sort of as a joke. The second one is I do this Help me help you events. We get people together, a group. I simply ask an audience member, what is it that you want and need. I help them to express that because that's really, really hard. We can actually do an exercise later if you're interested. I can show you how that works and then we ask the audience to solve it. But it has to be practical and it has to be done on the spot so that people have a real step forward in whatever it is that they're struggling with. I've done uh, five, uh, of those. There's one More coming in March, I believe. And we've helped a lot of people, and it creates great community and hopefully makes a better world. And then the third tool I chose was how do you. Because I was thinking, like, how do you change the world on a bigger scale? And then I thought, politics. I'm like, I'm not going to be in politics. That's a bad idea. I'm way too much of a rebel for that. But maybe I can help transform companies if they're interested and willing. I'm not going to force anybody. And clearly this also needs to. You know, my clients should be companies that want to do this. But then I thought, let's be naive and do it. So I started articula about a year ago.

Speaker A: Excellent. Um, yeah, I'm definitely very, very curious about hearing what is descriptive communication. So this. Now tell us what is.

Speaker B: Yeah, please, can we do a little exercise? Two of us? Yeah, let's try. Okay. So, um, I'm going to ask you a question, and all you have to do is answer it. One thing that's very important. I don't know the right answer. I don't have a preconceived notion of what the answer should be. And then I'm going to ask the same question again, and I'm going to explain to you how to explain it in descriptive communication terms. And all I want you to do is to feel the difference.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: All you have to do. Well, see, can you name me a, uh, food that you really like?

Speaker A: Um, let's say fried rice, like nasi goreng.

Speaker B: Very good. Okay. Fried rice. Uh, why do you like it?

Speaker A: Well, particular. I can tell it's very good for any Peruvian. We have. We were. Since very small, we ate fried, uh, rice. But another style is the chifa, or more Cantonese style. So I ate that since I was super small and. Yes.

Speaker B: Okay, very good. Okay, this is interesting to me. We're already doing it now. We're already doing descriptive communication. Also, by the way, for the people that are interested in learning how to speak, being speaker, what's more interesting? Answering the question, what do you like to eat with nasi goreng? Or to say. Well, so as a young child, I really already love nasi goreng. It's a difference, right? You can feel it almost immediately. Okay, can you tell me a specific memory as a child when you were having nasi goreng?

Speaker A: Yeah. The experience is, um, you know, you go to the chifa restaurants in Peru and you order. You bring it home and it's wrapped in this. I Don't know. What's the name of that special paper? The fried rice is wrapped there and then you unwrap it and serve it. Yeah. Enjoy it.

Speaker B: And how old were you?

Speaker A: Maybe seven years or.

Speaker B: Seven years. How did it taste?

Speaker A: Very good.

Speaker B: What did you taste? What's in it? In your memory, what were the flavors

Speaker A: like? Soy sauce is also a bit sweet. There was some sweets. The green on green onion. Yeah. This.

Speaker B: And how did it make you feel as a child in your body? Is it pleasant? Was it unpleasant? Did it tingle?

Speaker A: I. I think it was. Feel very good. Feel very good.

Speaker B: Very good. Do you feel it in a specific part of your body?

Speaker A: Yeah, I guess. Uh, I just. Just feel good.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Upper part of the body, maybe?

Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. Now that you're describing this, how does it make you feel?

Speaker A: Yeah, feels. Feels good.

Speaker B: Of course it's different, right? It's different than just saying, I like Nasi goreng. Yes.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: What's the difference, would you say, in feeling?

Speaker A: Uh, yeah, it's more, um, you. I think it's your mind. Your mind goes to a specific, uh, time and place. Yeah. And you, you, in a way, you are recreating the senses of that.

Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. So by describing it, by putting it in a context and make it more concrete.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Uh, this is what the script communication is. It's very simple. It's very simple, but it's surprisingly hard to do. So I noticed that, let's say there's four more people. I could do the same exercise with all four more, and probably everybody would have a bit of a starter, a bit of a challenge. You would think that after having seen you and the next person, the third person would more easily do it. No. There seems to be something happening where we don't like to talk that much about ourselves. We don't like to talk about how we feel about things. I personally think that has something to do with that. The way that we're raised to teachers, we're not really supposed to say what we think, what we feel. Also, most people don't ask. And even if they do ask, let's say a manager asks you, so what do you want? Do they really want to know the answer? I'm not sure.

Speaker A: Yeah, like, very short one.

Speaker B: Yeah, right. Exactly. And that's why people start to learn to answer in one, uh, like one term or one concept. They say, like, feels good. I'm going to do X, I'm going to do B. So descriptive communication is a very simple tool to help the narrator, the storyteller, to tell Story. Now, what we just did is a very simple one. Now imagine that I would ask you the question all of a sudden, what do you want? That's a big one, right? Uh, you can almost feel already a bit of resistance, like, oh, like, do we want to go there? So whether you are a speaker or a manager or an employee, imagine describing the question, what do you want? Suggest that for speakers. That's an interesting question. Why are you on stage? What are you trying to achieve? And somebody m might say, well, I talk about AI. Okay, If I would have a session with this person, then I would ask why? And I don't have any judgment. It's not a why as in why dumb person. No, it's a why. What is it? Why? Why does this matter to you? And then people will first tell a story that is not the reason why. I noticed first they give me some kind of marketing ish answer that they think people want to hear. And then we continue, we kind of ask the question again, why is this important to you? Where does this come from? And there's always a story. There's always a story beneath that that reminds people why they're doing what they're doing. They, that's highly motivating. That gives you an arrow. If I answer the question, what do I want fully? Whether it's as an employee or a CEO or a speaker, I know my trajectory now. I know that if I get the question, do you want A or B? I know which one to answer because all I have to do is follow the why. It's really simple. Even though it's not easy to do.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's correct. I imagine all those situations like asking a, ah, speaker, why do you speak in, let's say, AI or another specific topic? And yeah, most speakers will not give you an easy answer. Have never thought of that question being asked. Of course the answer. Um, so let's go now into. I understand the concept and it sounds very useful. Definitely. Now that you have mentioned companies, how the leaders. Companies can. Can use it in practice. Tell us about how to put this in practice.

Speaker B: Okay, so I have prepared something, um, shortly. Uh, this. You can actually download this also from my website and I call it to remind. So the idea is how, as a leader, do you remind your employee why they're there now, very important. If somebody is just working for money, then that's it. There's not a lot to do. But if somebody came in because they are interested, this can help a lot. And these are very simple questions. But first, as a leader you have to understand that you have to create time and space. So if I want to know if you're engaged or disengaged, and I kind of test this in the hallway, on the run or in a meeting, probably not going to work. Let's go to an office. Let's make some coffee. Why? Because that shows that I care. And I'm not here to find out whether you have bad intentions or good intentions. I'm here to find out what it is that you're supposed to be doing, which is a different mindset. And I'm afraid that too many leaders are still thinking, is this person useful? Should we consider firing them or not? Or something like that. And again, fair enough. You know, I've never run a company. I don't. That must be a burden for sure. Anyway, so you create a setting that also means that as a leader, you have to stop working, put your computer away, put your phone away, stop thinking about whatever Excel file you were thinking about before you sit down. And then the first thing you do, um, as cliche as it sounds, is take a deep breath to calm the nervous system. And then you can ask a very simple question. And I like to go straight into these questions. I don't really start with, how are you doing? Question number one. So let's say I have Bob in front of me. Say, hey, Bob, I have a question. And that would really help me understand better where we're going together. And that question is, what do you hope to achieve for this company? And then let's say Bob is in hr. And then Bob will say, yeah, you know, like, help people. Well, what does that mean? Like, if I could ask a hundred people, what does that mean? It'll give a hundred different answers. So I have to help Bob to explain. And ah, I. But it's a personal thing, so. Okay, Bob. So help people. Okay. Help. Are you talking about the employees or the end user? Yeah, yeah, the employees. Okay, great. How do you want to help them? And then Bob will say, well, you know, I don't know. We think that everybody knows what we mean. And again, this is where description comes in. What is it that you want to help the employees with? Is it about that they get their, uh, payroll on time, or is it about helping them understand how they can stay healthy at work? Yeah, yeah, it's about health at work. Okay, cool. Good. And just. Just to point something out, that means that if Bob is working 70% on payroll, maybe that's not the best idea. Maybe Bob should be more in a coaching function so also for me as a leader, it's giving me direction. Where should. Because Bob wants to do this part. And this is where Bob can shine, where Bob can express himself fully. Right. Okay. So coaching, uh, what did you have in mind? Yeah. Ah, well, yeah, we don't really have a coaching department. Okay. Is that something you would be. Would you want to make that? Yeah, well, but I don't know how that works. Okay. And then you kind of take it from there. But that's for the company.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Second question. What do you want to achieve for the end user and. Or customer? Now think about this. I might not be working with the end user or customer, but everybody in the company has an influence on this. What do I want for them? Because that's where the responsibility also lies, at the customer. Right. You go through the same kind of questions. And then the last question, what do you want to achieve for yourself within the function using your skills? And obviously all these three questions are kind of uh, uh, you can combine them. They're all very similar. But the beauty is that you don't only say what is it in it for us, the company, you also say what's in it for you? Now that's not where it starts. Then you start to talk about, hey, so let's say you want to set up a coaching thing. Who else do you need help from? Well, I would actually need help from, I don't know, sales or marketing or whatever the hell this could be. And then it becomes my job as a manager to help set this up. So Bob is now engaged. Bob has all the tools. Bob can express himself fully. And this is more likely to create a success in the company in some way or form than having Bob on payroll, just going through the motions every day, burning out, as a lot of people do, burning out, costing money. And then we have turnover and we have to hire a new person and the whole shebang.

Speaker A: Yes. So you mentioned that this, I think you explained that you invite Bob to have a coffee and you start talking about this. So how long it takes that conversation? How long that conversation?

Speaker B: That's a very good question. Okay. I would say that the initial conversation is at least an hour. Uh, and it doesn't stop that. Right. That's not it.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a starter.

Speaker B: Right. So. And I can actually connect this also to speaking. The manager, team leader, CEO has to care. If they don't care, then everybody's in number. Yeah, if I care, I. And the beauty is here also, if I care, I get to actually manage people and think about this. If I get people to be in the function that they should be in doing the thing that helps the company, then I have to manage less, I have to work less. I get to actually help people do. Because if I'm a manager, I don't want to do anything. You know what I mean? That's my goal. I should figure out a way how to not do anything. But I'm going around asking people, what do you want? I'm connecting people. I am managing, not working, which is very hard to do.

Speaker A: It is. It is. Okay. Very, very interesting. Um, anything else you would like to add to all this? You have a tool or a practice that you are doing? Yes.

Speaker B: So, uh, the beauty is that the tool I just presented of these questions, we can actually add one more thing to. And this is really simple. And again, you can download this on my website.

Speaker A: Sounds good.

Speaker B: And that is this. So you're talking with Bob or you're in a meeting. It doesn't really matter. And by the way, again, this also goes for speakers preparing for a job, for a speaking gig. Bob, in order to do this thing that we're going to do as a team, what do you need? Now, this is a question that people get asked, but not a lot of people know how to answer it. And also, it's not really a fair question. If I'm a manager, why don't I help you answer the question? Here we go. This is so simple. You can do this at home. This is the simplest, Bob. Do you need information? Do you need resources? Do you need support? Moral support? Do you need a schedule? Do you need budget? Do you need time? Do you need motivation? Do you need infrastructure? Do you need authority? You know, a yes or a no. Do you need a deadline? Do you need education? Bob answers that list. And I know. Imagine that you're in a meeting with 10 people. That sounds like a chore, right? In the beginning, people will find this weird and they will find it childish. But eventually I, as a manager, know what you're going to do. Everybody. I know exactly what you have asked for. I provide that. If I can, or I provide an alternative, then as a manager, I check up. Are you, Bob? You still good? You're using the schedule that I gave you and the referral. Yes, yes, I'm good. Okay. Okay. Now it's time for the deadline. We're in a meeting. Everybody's prepared. It is impossible not to be prepared. But let's say somebody isn't prepared. Well, that's a bit strange, because as A team. I. We provided you with everything you said you needed. Not me, you. You asked for these things. You didn't do it. Now we have a really good tool. So we have a conversation what else is happening? And you'll see that then either comes out that, let's say, maybe somebody has a daughter at home that's really ill and this is a problem, there's a mental problem, and they need to go to the doctor, or they are actually not in the right place, Maybe not in the right department, not the right function, maybe not in the right company. And now you also have actually really tools to discuss this. Does that make any sense? If you're consistent with this, eventually also people will come and prepare to the meeting, and they will start saying, okay, I need from this department, this. I need. This amount of budget I need making your life as a manager easier again. This almost never happens, almost never in any meeting ever I've been in. It's a missed opportunity.

Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I guess it's.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, I mean, I have rarely seen part of that being asked, being organized, but some definitely very good tools for anybody who is managing people well.

Speaker B: And think about it in a way, again, it's about describing. Describe me what you need instead of just asking, because you know what I need. No, you don't. Simple, right?

Speaker A: Yeah. Way more structure. Yes, absolutely.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Could you now, um, tell us, what is your favorite quotation?

Speaker B: I do, actually. So I was so happy when you asked me this question. My favorite quotation is from my friend, Heidi Hendrickson. And she told me it someday. We were having a chat, and she was mentoring me, and I felt guilty for how much effort she had put into me. And I said that to her, like, wow, you have helped me so much, and I can do so little in return. And she said, if one of us wins, we all win. And that struck me so deep in my heart. And that should be the rule. If you win, I win too. It's not me against you, it's us. And we can help you. We can help me.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah, That's a good one. Could you now recommend us one book that has been particularly inspiring, influential for you?

Speaker B: Yes. So there's a book that talks a lot about how Fight or Flight works. You have heard about Fight or Flight, right? This is something we use a lot. And this book is by far the best explanation of how that works in the human psyche and where it comes from and the tools to use it. And it's called Complex PTSD by Pete Walker. Complex ptsd by Pete Walker. And if you, when she start reading the book and pretty sure that 80% of the people will think, oh, I recognize this. This kind of sounds like me.

Speaker A: Okay, what is ptsd?

Speaker B: So PTSD is post traumatic stress disorder. That means that let's say you were in an accident, um, and, uh, like there was an explosion. Then later, when a. You're at home and you hear a big bang, you are transferred back mentally to the spot. But complex PTSD is different. So cptsd. Complex PTSD is when, uh, there's a fear reaction. Your boss calls you into their office, and you are transferred back to a period in your life where you had the same fear moment. And that mostly means that then we react like a child. So for instance, you get, uh, asked into the office of your boss, and as a child you used to then freeze or get really angry. Then as an adult, you do it again. And this is not a choice. It's not a choice. And that means that it can really mess up kind of, uh, personal relationships. It can really mess up professional relationships and CPTs. Complex post traumatic stresses. Or the book by Pete Walker explains how it works, where it comes from, and how you can work with that. And that means that eventually then you become a full grown adult who can regulate themselves and choose how to react in any given situation.

Speaker A: Sounds very interesting. I think, for sharing that. Finally, please leave us with an exercise, something practical that you would recommend us doing regularly. What we call a routine to shine.

Speaker B: I was thinking about this, and it's such an incredibly difficult question. And I was thinking, like, what's something practical that actually, actually really works? Really works. And I came up with this. My apologies if people think that it's too simple. But I realized this. Okay, let's say I get emotional, I'm stressed, and then, uh, people will say, uh, you gotta let it go. Well, uh, how. What are you. I'm sure. Is there a button I can push? I'll push it, right? I don't know. It's a very strange thing we tell each other, but I have learned one thing in my life that a way to initiate the possibility of letting go starts with a deep breath and relaxing the body. Somehow that seems to be the start of it. Doesn't solve anything but the breath. And then when we exhale, we relax everything. And what that does is there's actually science behind it. So when we get stressed, our big brain shuts down our thinking part and we start thinking with our back of our head, our reptile brain. And we have to re engage funny enough with the frontal part of our brain and to when we lessen, when we get our heart rate back to normal by that taking that deep breath and we get more brain power again, and we can actually make a decision. And that's something you can do easily in life in any given moment, whether you're in a movie theater or at work.

Speaker A: If you are in the middle of a horror movie.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A: All right, thank you very much. Thank you very much, Yob, for this super interesting conversation.

Speaker B: My pleasure, man. Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker A: Yeah, it was very, very interesting. Please tell us how people can, uh, farm more about you. What's the best ways to get in touch? Follow you?

Speaker B: Uh, so one of the best places would be my website, articula.com, which is spelled A R T I q u l a.comm.com. and also please, uh, take a look at my LinkedIn. There's more information there. I also post weekly, uh, videos and written posts about all these topics. So if people want to stay updated on that, they can check out the LinkedIn.

Speaker A: Excellent. Many ways. Again, was a pleasure talking with you, Jop and all the best.

Speaker B: Thank you, man.

Speaker A: Thank you for joining us today. If you enjoyed this show, do me a favor, go to Apple podcast or your favorite app and leave us a rate and review. This helps me so more people will find the show. And if you work in the tech industry, please visit my website. Website rockthetechstage.com until next time.