The Importance & Value of Creativity with Neil Quick

Speaker A: Welcome to through the Line, the marketing and communications podcast with me, Andy Barduri. Now, the regular listeners would have spotted a huge gap since my last show. And the big reason for that is I've been working with my, uh, colleagues at Oyster Catchers on some really exciting projects, helping household brands to work out how to use creativity to build their brands. And that's the subject of this episode of the podcast with my good friend Neil Quick, as we explore why brands should invest in creativity and what are the steps they can take to use creativity or creative output as a way to improve business performance. Things like how do you get to a great brief? For example, how do you brief agencies so that they deliver, uh, really good creative advertising and communications. If you're into creativity, you are going to enjoy the show. Neil's great fun and we had a blast recording the show. Neil, good afternoon, my friend. How are you doing?

Speaker B: I'm very well. It's Friday, it's a bank holiday weekend. What could be better?

Speaker A: Well, I don't know what could be better. We could be having a very nice conversation all about creativity, which is exactly what we are doing. So, uh, thank you very much for joining me on the podcast.

Speaker B: Absolutely, my pleasure, Andy, as always.

Speaker A: So I'm going to introduce you and I'm going to make loads of errors to correct me if I go wrong. And, uh, I've known you very well now for about, I think about nine or 10 months. We've been working together on a couple of really, really interesting projects, which is kind of the basis of the subject of this conversation around creativity. But for those, and there will be a few that have never come across. Mr. Neil Quick before, I'll quickly introduce you. So I, I would say In a nutshell, 35 plus years working in the advertising and creative industries.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Yeah. Madam Boy, kicking off at Ogilvy, moving on to Low and Partners and then going on to publicist, rising to the ranks of MD of the London office and running all of the global business with Procter and Gamble. And if I look at the myriad of brands that you've worked on, advertising wise, some of those that pop out, uh, Guinness, Lucas Aid, Harley Davidson, Co Op. I mean, I could go on for a long time, couldn't I? With the brands that you've worked on and aside from that work in terms of advertising consultancy, you're also now a brand strategy trainer at the ipa and you also work with me and my colleagues at Oyster Catchers, working on really great marketing transformation projects. How's that for an intro?

Speaker B: I Think that's a pretty deft summary actually. Andy. Good. Thank you very much. Yeah, good, good.

Speaker A: Okay, excellent. And what I really wanted to talk to you about today is creativity. And that's been the subject of our work for a couple of big brands over the last nine, 10 months. And we've been trying to help them get to a point where they can ramp up not just their, ah, creative output, but the business impact of that creative output as well. So I want to ask you, I guess, kick off with one question, which is why invest in creativity? What's the value of it?

Speaker B: It's a great question. That's what the politicians always say, isn't it, at the beginning of one of their things? It's a very good question. And then they answer a completely different one. So I'll try not to do that. Um, it is now absolutely unequivocal that investing in creativity gets you business returns. I think one of the brilliant things that's happened over the last 20 to 30 years, probably starting even further back than that with Ehrenberg's work, is that the assessment of advertising effectiveness and, um, return on investment and so on and so forth, has become much more of a scientific endeavor for years, years and years and years. And we still do it today. It was all about case studies. I did this, worked, I did that and it worked, or we did this great program and it worked. And of course, as individual case studies, they may be good, they may be bad, they may be robust, they may be weak. But what you need to do is to look at it using proper scientific method, have a difficulty, decent sample size, uh, get rid of all the variables, look at it properly and do what scientists always call a meta analysis. So look at lots of different studies and lots of different stuff and put them all together and see what pops out. And over the last 20 years that's really accelerated. We've all heard of Byron Sharp's stuff, um, that was, uh, riding on the shoulders of what Ehrenberg did prior to that. And since then, organizations like the Can Effectiveness Awards, organizations like Walk have continued in that vein.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And creativity now has an absolutely proven effect through meta analysis and through proper scientific method on business results. It's clear, it's unequivocal, um, and for years, because that sort of didn't really exist or where it did, it hadn't filtered through to everybody in the world of marketing, even everybody in the world of advertising, and certainly not everybody on the, uh, board in organizations whose money would be spent on advertising and marketing and creativity. It hadn't filtered through that. That proof was available on that point there.

Speaker A: Do you think it has now fully filtered through to those that sit on the board of large organizations and are responsible for approving the big spending on marketing and communications? Or do you think that's a conversation we're still having?

Speaker B: No, I think it's a conversation result. I mean, I think it's really interesting, isn't it, Andy, that the work that you and I do is helping, um, usually marketing people, um, improve creativity to improve business results. And often one of the biggest things, uh, involved in that is the, um, the euphemistic stakeholder management to make sure everybody in the organization understands that that correlation is true. And that's nearly always the starting place for the argument. It's, look, there are decades of data which say that improve creativity improves business performance. And the fact that we're still having to make that argument suggests to me very strongly that it hasn't filtered through to everybody.

Speaker A: Yes, yeah, I'd agree with that. I think we always have to start off with a justification of it, don't we? And you've referenced some excellent studies. Uh, the likes of walk, for example, and all the stuff from Byron, Sharp and Ehrenberg just kind of backs up the idea that we need to be investing in creativity. And we've been looking at the, uh, WALK effectiveness ladder quite a lot recently, haven't we, as well?

Speaker B: Yeah, the WALK have done some really interesting work, particularly based on, um, stuff from CAN and stuff from the IPA as well, who have a wealth of knowledge and data on this. And it's very clear that there are certain characteristics of creativity which build business. I think I find this absolutely fascinating. Right. Because one of the issues, I think, is that creativity in itself is seen as somewhat fluffy because it's associated with art and the arts, sculpture, music, poetry, all those sorts of things, which seems a bit fluffy. So for people who are used to solely looking at numbers, it's difficult to reconcile those two things. But what we know is that art is backed up by science. And I think that's difficult thing for some people to get their heads around. So when we look at the characteristics of work that works, when we look at lots and lots of data to understand what type of things are going to build the business, there's a sort of little bit of double think that needs to go on because what it says is that if you do X, if you do Y, if you do Z, and you do it in this way and you follow all these rules and you Observe all of these hard points in the way that you do it, then your business will work. Yet, yet, yet, yet. And um, what seems in some ways a direct contradiction of that is that stuff that's original and innovative and creative works. So what are we doing? Eh? What are we doing? Are we doing the same things which we know work or are we doing something totally new and creative and different and there are no rules and we just do what we want? Because after all that's what art's about, isn't it? It's about just doing what you want. But the critical thing is creativity within a framework. Framework having a creative canvas on which you can paint original and inspirational and innovative stuff.

Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. And what you're saying there is that there are guidelines, parameters to work within. But as, uh, creative people, as artists, if we work within those frameworks, then we can do work that's original, interesting, exciting motive, and at the same time generate a business response that can be understood by those that look at numbers and spreadsheets and ROI figures and roaming. All that good stuff.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And I, I think it's a tough thing to get your head around because you have to think artistically and scientifically at the same time.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You have to understand that there are rules of, to be followed, but originality and innovation is absolutely critical, you know, and it's not just about creativity in advertising, it's about creativity in business. It's about creativity and strategy.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It's new things. As Edward de Bono said, without creativity we'd be forever repeating the same patterns.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. Actually there's a really.

Speaker B: Oh, sorry, go on.

Speaker A: I was going to say a really good point you made. There is, you know, creativity isn't just in terms of the artistry of it, but it's the strategy as well. It's the approach that we take. And sometimes I think that gets forgotten when we talk about creativity. Uh, and that's a really big part of marketing effectiveness is have we got the strategy right in the first place before we get down to the actual, you know, creating the communications.

Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. And great strategy. Yeah, we talk about insight a lot. Um, there are few great strategies without an insight at the heart of them.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: An insight is an original way of thinking about things. I always think about it as a non obvious truth.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Differently about the brand or category. It should have that, ah, that um, yeah, maybe rather cliched aha effect. You know, when you hear a great insight, you're thinking, you know what? I never really thought about it. Like that. That's so true. That's really interesting. And that requires creative thinking because to get to a great strategy based on a great insight, you have to think about stuff. You have to compare apples and pears, you have to look at different things. You have to look at culture and consumers and what's going on in the world. You have to look for tensions and opportunities. Where are their needs out there that aren't being met? Where are people saying one thing but doing another? And so on and so forth. You have to be able to spot patterns and trends and you have to be able to come up with an idea. An insight is a creative leap. It's not just looking at data. And one of the things that worries me a lot these days is that we get overwhelmed by data. We often find that we cannot see the wood for the trees. And in data you will find some interesting things. But it's the interesting things you're looking for. It's not just a cold, logical analysis.

Speaker A: Well, there was a performance. There was that moment in that workshop where we were running there not so long ago. And uh, there was a conversation around trying to come up with an original idea. And somebody said, no, we need to get back and look at all of the data. And we were actually trying to get away from that approach and think about it from more of a human lens, I think, rather than just looking at a load of M data. And you're right, we are swimming in data these days. We don't always know what to do with it. But I would love to look at the, the kind of key ingredients of what enables us to get to great creative. But there was, just before we move on, there was. There was one stat I saw recently and I forget where I saw it. It might have been. Might have been walk. It might have been Mark, uh, Ritson. I forget exactly who shared it, but it was something along the lines of brands that have great creativity have a kind of 12 times multiplier of effectiveness to brands that don't invest in creativity. Does that sound familiar? Do you know? I'm.

Speaker B: Yeah, it does. There are quite a few brilliant headline facts like that based on these meta analyses from the IPA and walk and can and so on and so forth. Um, but yeah, I've seen figures like that a lot and there's really interesting correlations between, um, I think this is a really interesting thing between effectiveness and ROA of creatively awarded work versus non creatively awarded work.

Speaker A: Uh. Oh, right. Okay.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's really, really interesting because it it begins to square that circle that I think's always been really, really difficult between clients and agencies. Agencies are seen as, at worst, pursuing creativity for its own sake.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Yeah. Doing what they want, doing stuff that will impress, um, their colleagues and peers

Speaker A: rather than stuff that changes the business performance.

Speaker B: Build the client business. And um, I, I honestly think there's still that, ah, sort of that slight sort of whiff of suspicion amongst clients about the advertising industry. And I think that's one of the things over the years that, uh, uh, has meant we've shot ourselves in the foot.

Speaker A: Yeah. And sometimes you see that in agency propositions as well, saying we don't just do work, uh, to chase creative awards, we do work, uh, that delivers business performance, which probably doesn't help their cause or the industry's cause in that positioning there, does it? You know, sure, we want to win awards, but what we get really excited about and certainly where I like to look at is effectiveness awards. So the FES for me are really interesting, perhaps more so than, uh, the Cannes Lion Awards. But if you're saying that there's studies that show a correlation between creatively awarded work and business performance as well, then that's really interesting.

Speaker B: Yeah, there's a lot of that stuff out there. I always had a mantra when I ran teams and um, agency units and so on, and it was very, very simple, which was about our reason for existence in the first place. And everybody had to be sort of really clear about this, which was that the reason we exist is to create work that builds the client's business, that we are proud of ourselves.

Speaker A: Oh, I like that. That's really easy to follow, isn't it? It's a good man. Yeah.

Speaker B: Well, it builds the client's business that we're proud of ourselves. And if you've got that duality. Yeah. Still a lot of trial and error in there, but you, you, you, you generally won't go far wrong.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, I really like that, Neil. Thanks for sharing that.

Speaker B: Ah, in terms of the sort of work that you produce in terms of the business effects it has for the client and also in terms of trust in terms of the client relationship with the agency. And I'd always make that really clear to our clients as well. When I was working at agencies, that, that, that was what we were trying to do.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it is that duality that, that um, that gets you a win. Win.

Speaker A: Yes. And actually, interestingly, we were both together at the Oyster Catchers Club evening last night where there was a conversation around trust between clients and agencies and. Yeah, and that feels to me like a key piece of that trust is having, uh, mutually agreeable objectives for the work that you're trying to do. Yes, I understand we need to move your business performance, but equally I understand as an agency you need to be doing work that you're proud of and that might mean getting some awards just to demonstrate or evidence the fact you've done something really fantastic. So I like that. Let's talk about, because we kind of almost drifted into it there, which is the kind of what are the key ingredients that go into great creative. And you talked about, uh, insight there and having, you know, kind of original ideas. And I think insight is one of those terms that often is overused and misunderstood and you know, gets kind of mixed in with general market research terms, doesn't it? And so it'll be great. I know we have this conversation every now and again is, you know, what actually is an insight and how do we arrive at an insight that enables us to now how do we arrive at it and then what do we do with it?

Speaker B: That definition I gave earlier I quite like and that's the one that I always use. Uh, an insight, really non obvious truth that makes you think differently about the brand or the category. And I think there are two parts to that statement. One is that conflict between non obvious and truth. If it's not true, it's not an insight. If it's obvious, it's not an insight.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: A non optimal truth. You are revealing something in a way that opens people's heart or mind. The second part of it is the effect of that which is to make you think differently. If it doesn't make you think differently, it is not an insight.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: Yeah. And um, the way you judge it, as I said before, is that it has that effect. You know what, that's so true. I've never thought about it like that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And um, if you look back through the annals of advertising, you will see lots and lots of stuff, which is what I call. That's why advertising and it's a sort of slightly derogatory term in the way I use it. You want to get this out of your washing powder. That's why New blah blah automatic washes things at 30 degrees to get them clean. Um, and the construction of that, whilst it at its worst might seem a bit crass, at its best it shows you what an insight does, which is to tee up the benefit, the promise that you can give to consumers. Here's something really interesting. That's why our product is the one for you?

Speaker A: Yes. And is that a fairly kind of a well used formula, isn't it, in terms of creative output?

Speaker B: Yeah, it is. It is a well used formula. And um, I don't think that there's anything wrong with it. The other really interesting thing is that you don't always have to say the bit at the beginning, as the old marketeers used to say. There's a difference between what you know and what you show. You don't, uh, want that to have the, that's why bit at the beginning. If you've discovered that if you have an insight, then you can present your product's benefit in a way which plays into that without having to spell it out in a crass way. Because people will suddenly understand the truth of that. Blimey, I'd never thought about it like that. Yeah, they'll feel something different about it.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: It'll write that emotion.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's really good. Okay, that's clear. So, so we've got an insight and we know we can use that insight as a way to create some advertisement. What does that process look like in terms of we've got this deep, human, non obvious truth. We've got the oh yes moment, the aha moment, as you've called it. How do we take that forward? What are the kind of key steps in that process to then turning that aha into a, uh, piece of advertising that works?

Speaker B: I think the first thing is absolute clarity of thinking and having a strategic point of view about things. This is nothing new. It's about the quality of the brief, per se.

Speaker A: Yes. Okay.

Speaker B: A brief isn't where you just write a load of stuff down. Should be. Uh-huh. Clear, directional and inspirational.

Speaker A: Yes, but we've all seen briefs that aren't any of those things.

Speaker B: Um, and, um, I think it was, I think it was Dave Trott who said writing a brief isn't about writing, it's about thinking.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: It's still as true now as it ever was. The issue that you have these days is that the complexity of the output has to be built in to your strategic point of view, understanding where it's going to be. So it's not necessarily going to be just one singular monolithic thing. It will have to be expressed in many, many different ways. So when you're thinking about the strategy, you have to think a little bit more deeply about, uh, the channel that it'll appear in, the culture within which it'll appear, the ability to break it down into different audiences who will behave slightly Differently in the category or very differently in the category? Yeah, because you've got the ability to talk to all those people in their own cultures and channels and environments and so on. Yeah. So you have to build that into it at the beginning. But as I say, the key thing about it, uh, is the same as it's ever been, which is a really clear, simple, strategic point of view.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. Uh, and I think one of the other areas that we talk quite a lot about when we're talking to clients around creativity is audience and understanding who the audience is. And moving away from this idea that we want a bunch of, uh, demographics, for example, as part of our creative briefing process. And that's not really what we're looking for, is it? When we're trying to define an audience, that helps us to get to that moment of, aha.

Speaker B: I hate demographics, probably, Andy, because now I'm in a demographic age group that I don't want to be in. But I find demographics almost hopeless in terms of strategy. They're of no use whatsoever because it doesn't tell you about what people's needs are. Uh, it doesn't tell you about their drivers of choice in the category. It doesn't tell you about behavior. What does it tell you about? I'm not sure. Yeah, I'm absolutely not sure. Um, the way that you have to define audiences is by a group that's held together by a common logic in the category.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And that logic will encapsulate things like needs and behaviors and feelings and emotions and all that good stuff. But it's a group that's held together by a common logic, because if you understand how they feel and behave in the category and what their needs are, you can understand how you can work creatively to get them to buy your product rather than somebody else's. Because that's nearly always what we're trying to do.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: Is that simple. Get them to buy our, uh, products instead of their current behavior. And more often than not, the current behavior, buying a competitor's product. Sometimes it'll be something different when we're trying to grow the category, or we've got a really big innovation, or, um, we're trying to offer some completely new benefits which have always been part of our brand but have never been expressed before. So sometimes it will be about category growth and fundamental behavior change. A lot of the time it will just be about brand switching, if we're honest. Yeah. So objective. Getting people to buy our brand instead of their current behavior. Unless you understand people? Yeah, the audience definition and their current behavior and, um, what drives it and what's all the stuff behind it. You're never going to be able to get them to change it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And that doesn't matter what age bracket you are, what your gender is or where you live. There's that great graphic that keeps doing the rounds every now and again when it's a comparison of Ozzy Osbourne and King Charles. You know, same, same sort of age, same country of birth and so on

Speaker B: and so forth, but quite same income bracket.

Speaker A: Yeah. Quite clearly going to have very different buying habits, aren't they? Um, they wouldn't sit in the same audience definition on, on anybody's creative, um, brief, would they?

Speaker B: No, exactly. Except in certain categories. Who knows what Broccoli forks.

Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know. I'd love to know what categories they both shop in. That would be quite interesting, wouldn't it? What are the similarities of products? You know, perhaps to have the same brand of underwear or something. That would be great.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: Okay, so we're rapidly running out of time, and I knew this was going to happen because, uh, you and I talk a lot and we always talk a lot, and so we could probably carry on for ages, but I always start to keep the shows to about half an hour. So just any other key ingredients that we haven't touched on that you think, you know what, these are things that are really important for arriving at really effective, impactful creativity or creative advertising.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think the one we haven't touched on, which is really, really important and often gets forgotten, is organizational culture.

Speaker A: Ah. Uh, yes.

Speaker B: You know, with the best win in the world, if you've got fantastic agencies, fantastic systems, fantastic marketing teams, unless the culture is attuned to the importance of creativity, you're not going to get very far. And of course, that is a really, really big kahuna when it comes to all this sort of stuff, because it's to do with organizational structure and ethos and people and HR and reward structures and the way that people progress through an organization and a lot of the softer stuff as well. About what does the organization think and feel about creativity?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Because unless those things are in place, it's really, really difficult to force things through. Even with evidence and a strong system, if you're not in the right place culturally, you're always going to be, um, pushing water uphill.

Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. And I think that ties into where we started the conversation was what's really the business value of creativity? And now that We've got the evidence to say, well, it's clear that investing in creativity works for business performance. Perhaps we can start to convince those that haven't traditionally been excited by creativity that is a good way to make an investment. And I think it ties in again with the conversation we had on the panel last night at the Oyster Catchers Club event. But also that age old debate of the long and the short of it. You know, if your culture is very much about measuring incremental change in, you know, three months, six months, you know, it's difficult to really invest in a, in a long term building long term creative platforms. And actually I was talking to a marketer last night who was telling me that in their organization they measure performance in 10 day cycles through their creative output. I've never heard of such a short window and that frightened me a little bit to thinking around how on earth are they going to invest in, you know, creativity and brand etc if they have such short, short term windows?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's really, really tough. The IPA in particular have done a lot of work, as many of us know, about how short and long term brand building act in harmony rather than in opposition to each other. Every short term endeavor should be part of a long term exercise as well. So they're not in contradiction, but exactly as you say, culturally a lot of organizations think that they are in opposition. Um, one of the other things that came up last night, the Oyster catchers thing, which I thought was great, was about the expression performance marketing.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Uh, and about how that um, implicitly dismisses anything that's not in that short term category of performance marketing. I perform as marketing performs, but the other stuff doesn't perform.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's a dangerous expression.

Speaker A: I agree. But I've heard that expressed another way in terms of. There was a chap from HSBC who spoke at Econ Live about, I don't know, three, six months ago and he said in his mind he hates the term performance marketing because all marketing is about creating performance in the business. Yeah. So it doesn't make any sense to him at all to uh, how it's used.

Speaker B: I think we're gonna have to come up with a new expression for Andy. Let, let, let you and me think about that.

Speaker A: Uh, we brainstorm that one out. Let's do it.

Speaker B: Brainstorm that one out. Because it, it does. Because language is the basis of rational thought.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That's the way that we form our thoughts. Performance versus what versus non performance. Maybe short term performance versus long in. Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's. Performance is just the wrong word. I totally agree. It's kind of. We're always trying to make a difference, you know, whatever we do, whether it's long or short term. And actually you're completely correct there. It's not long or it's long and short term. And that was very much the output of that. All of that work done by IPA and Bennett Field, um, was all about long and short of it, not long or short of it.

Speaker B: So something that I know you and I were talking about, um, a few months ago, which was that brilliant marketing book built to last written in, I think it was the 90s. And one of their fundamental characteristics that they observed of companies who've been successful in the long term was um, their, their ability to avoid what he called the tyranny of awe and to choice between, for example, short term returns and long term returns. Um, and what he said great organizations embrace was a thing he called the genius of. And to accept every field of business, you could do things which seem to be initially mutually contradictory at the same time and succeed in both. And I think that's. Yeah, I mean it's not, it's, it's nothing new, but if you take that attitude, I can do both of those things. I think it's really empowering. I think it really sort of frees you up to think that I don't have to make those unwelcome, um, choices.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, I agree. But that then ties in very nicely with the cultural aspect. Right. If within the organization nobody else has that viewpoint, it's going to be a tough journey for you, isn't it? You're going to have to sell that idea throughout the organization. And cultural change isn't an overnight thing. It can take time to shift the culture within a particular large organization and

Speaker B: it usually comes right from the top as well.

Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I always say this to younger, uh, um, mid management marketeers is try to find an organization where the senior management believes in the value of marketing. That would be a much more rewarding place for you to work as a marketer.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because you won't be fighting all the time to prove your value and your worth. You'll just be free to do the work that makes a difference and that you'll be motivated by. Uh, so I think that's, you know, culturally it's such an important piece actually.

Speaker B: That's from you, Andy. Very wise advice. I think you're absolutely bang on.

Speaker A: Yes, thank you very much. I appreciate that. Gosh, uh, Neil, we could carry on for ages. And I, in my mind, I'm thinking, right, I need to find three or four other topics that Neil and I can riff on on this podcast at some point because it's such a pleasure as always having a chat with you and it's been brilliant, uh, working with you over the last 10 months as well. Really enjoyed myself at a great time on those projects we've been working on, so.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Likewise, Andy.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's been great. But I would just like to, um. I typically like to ask at the end of a show, where do you look for inspiration and ideas? What's the kind of. What are the resources you turn to when you need to get a bit of. A kind of bit of creative stimulus? For example?

Speaker B: I try not to think about things.

Speaker A: Ah. Ah, okay.

Speaker B: I, uh, um, I let my brain freewheel. I'll do some DIY or go for a bicycle ride or do something like that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And. And if I try and think too hard, the gears in my head jam and I can't come up with anything original or inspirational. If it's ticking away in my subconscious, I find that it's there. If it's just ticking along. Yeah, I'll just have that idea. If I don't think too hard, it's never going to come.

Speaker A: All the best ideas come when you're in the bath on a Sunday evening, you know.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: And your brain's idling along and suddenly it's like, bing, I got it.

Speaker B: Yeah. The human brain is an amazing thing for doing things like that, isn't it?

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, it is, completely.

Speaker B: But it's like. It's like that sort of whole art and science thing as well. You cannot just by sitting there with a piece of paper, start writing and expect to come to the answer. You will have to have some sort of leap of imagination.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. That's really interesting. And it reminds me of, uh, my friend Anthony Tasgol. Everyone knows him as tas, and he wrote a book called the Inspiratorium. And the idea of the Inspiratorium is that we need to actually get away from our desks and be inspired by the wider world around us to come up with great ideas. So, you know, go off and spend some time in an art gallery or go off and spend some time looking at architecture, if you're into that kind of thing. And, you know, that will free up your mind to open up some new creative avenues. Um, and I think that's kind of similar to what we're talking about there.

Speaker B: Exactly. Although my. My life in that respect is dominated mainly by child marshalling and household chores,

Speaker A: so

Speaker B: I rarely have the time to look for inspiration in more artistic fields.

Speaker A: Such is the life of a family man, Neil. We've all experienced that. Thank you ever so much for coming on the show. Uh, I look forward to putting it to editing this as I always do, because I do all the editing myself. I listen to it back. I've learned a lot, as always, from you, Neil. So thank you so much and see you again soon.

Speaker B: See you soon, Andy. Take care, Sam. Mhm.