The Chase Jarvis LIVE Show · 2026-07-08 · 1h 32m
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
62 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
This episode features Brené Brown discussing the intersection of vulnerability, creativity, and courage in an in-studio setting with an audience. Brown challenges the myth that vulnerability is weakness, arguing instead that it's the foundation of all meaningful creativity and connection. She examines how our post-9/11 scarcity culture has driven fear-mongering in media and cynicism in society, making authentic self-expression increasingly rare and valuable. Using examples like Macklemore's willingness to address difficult social issues in hip-hop and the importance of making that difficult phone call after someone's tragedy, Brown illustrates that true bravery isn't blustery posturing but showing up authentically when there's no guaranteed outcome. She references Theodore Roosevelt's arena metaphor to reframe vulnerability as the courageous act of stepping into uncertain territory with your face "marred with dust and sweat and blood." For creatives and makers, Brown emphasizes that discomfort often signals importance - that the work worth doing is the work that scares you. The episode explores how her research findings contradicted her own behavior, driving her to live more vulnerably and courageously.
Brown argues there is no creativity without vulnerability - the best creative work emerges when you're willing to be seen and when you hit publish or share something that scares you, which signals the work is important.
Brown traces this to post-9/11 scarcity culture, which has driven constant fear-based headlines and cynicism. Media will only elevate content that audiences consume, so people watching fear-based news perpetuates the cycle.
Drawing from Theodore Roosevelt's arena metaphor, daring greatly means showing up and being seen with your face "marred with dust and sweat and blood," willing to fail and try again - it's about the courage to be in the arena, not about winning.
Real courage is vulnerability - picking up the phone to comfort someone grieving, or speaking hard truths - while fake bravery is cynicism and criticism of others. Real bravery requires showing up authentically; fake bravery requires posturing.
The myth that you're either brave or afraid - in reality, most people are both brave and afraid simultaneously throughout the day; you can feel fear and still show up courageously.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
The episode contains solid conceptual frameworks (vulnerability vs. bravado, shame vs. guilt, the 'man in the arena' metaphor) and personal anecdotes, but much of the runtime is devoted to conversational meandering, audience questions, and repetition of core ideas rather than dense, novel insights. For a B2B operator, actionable density is moderate - the frameworks are useful but not particularly surprising to anyone who has engaged with self-help or leadership literature.
There is no creativity without vulnerability
Vulnerability minus boundaries is not vulnerability at all
While Brené Brown's framing of vulnerability as courage rather than weakness was genuinely novel when this aired, the core ideas have become mainstream in popular psychology and leadership discourse. The episode relies heavily on the well-known Theodore Roosevelt 'man in the arena' quote and familiar shame-versus-guilt distinction. The thinking is sound but not contrarian or first-principles - it's a polished version of established frameworks.
It's not the critic who counts. It's the man who's actually in the arena, whose face is marred with dust and sweat and blood
85% of the men and women I've interviewed over 13 years remember something so shaming that happened in school that it changed how they thought of themselves as learners
Brené Brown was a respected researcher at the University of Houston with significant original research on vulnerability and shame at the time of recording. Her TED talk had genuine viral impact, and she had already published multiple books grounded in qualitative research. However, she is primarily known as a researcher-turned-speaker rather than an operator who built a business or led at enterprise scale in a traditional sense. For B2B audiences, this limits her caliber somewhat - she speaks about leadership theory rather than leadership practice in a competitive business context.
I'm a grounded theory researcher, which is like very creative based research
Every single one of them engaged in some kind of creative endeavor
The episode relies heavily on generalized research findings and anecdotes rather than specific, quantifiable evidence. Claims like '85% of the men and women I've interviewed' and '50% of those wounds were around art and creativity' are presented without methodological detail, sample size context, or access to the underlying data. Concrete examples exist (the female CEO story, the academic peer's rejection, Macklemore), but specific business metrics, timelines, or financial impact are largely absent.
85% of the men and women I've interviewed over 13 years remember something so shaming that happened in school
I interviewed a VC who happened to be sitting next to me on a plane back from San Francisco
Chase Jarvis asks solid opening questions and creates space for Brown to explore ideas at length. He follows up on interesting threads (the 'man in the arena' quote, the small list of whose opinions matter, creativity as fundamental) and occasionally pushes back gently (acknowledging his own resistance to vulnerability concepts). However, the host rarely challenges Brown's assumptions directly, and many of the in-studio audience questions are softball affirmations rather than rigorous probes. The conversational rhythm is warm but lacks the tension that produces deeper insight.
Can you tie vulnerability and creativity together for us?
So when you don't care at all what people think, you lose our ability to connect. When we're defined by what people think, we lose the courage to be vulnerable. So what's the solution?
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
Hey friends, Chase here. Every summer, I revisit conversations from the archive that have stood the test of time. Not because I'm nostalgic, but because the best ideas don't expire. They deepen. This is the first installment of Summer School , a series where we're bringing back conversations that still have something important to teach us. This episode with Brené Brown was originally recorded more than a decade ago, shortly after Daring Greatly was published. A lot has changed since then. The platforms have changed. The technology has changed. The creative landscape has changed. But one thing hasn't. If you want to make meaningful work, build something that matters, or live a creative life, you'll eventually have to face criticism, self-doubt, and the fear of being seen. That's why I keep coming back to this conversation. Brené's research reminds us that creativity and vulnerability are inseparable. You can't create something original while trying to protect yourself from judgment. You can't innovate without uncertainty. And you can't live wholeheartedly if you're constantly waiting for permission. Twelve years later, this conversation feels just as relevant - maybe even more so.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
Speaker A: Today's episode is brought to you by Goruck. Now, if you don't know what rucking is, prepare to be awakened. Here's the concept. You strap a weighted vest to yourself and you walk. Now, you know that I played soccer
Speaker B: at a, uh, high level, played Olympic
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Speaker B: Hey, everybody, what's up? It's Chase.
Speaker A: Welcome to another episode of the show. Today's episode is part of Summer school. Summer school 2026. What is that? Summer School is a series of podcasts that I do in the summer, and it is a short aggregate of the shows that I personally have returned to for my own needs. For example, when I'm feeling stuck or blocked or disconnected, I go back to the nearly 1,000 episodes of our show. And I listen to this show to get unstuck myself, to get unblocked, or, uh, when I'm having trouble, I seek the experts that I have had on the show and I personally go back and listen to them. And then I keep track of the shows that I have returned to over the course of the previous year, and I share them with you here in the summer. So that's what today's episode is, and it's with the one and only. The first one here, rather is with the one and only Brene Brown. And this episode is shockingly, it's 12 years old. It's been downloaded millions of times. Uh, the YouTube video alone, I think has more than a million or almost just shy of a million views. Uh, and it is because it is a doozy. This is at the very, very earliest mark when Brene was coming onto the scene and, uh, she had had her viral TED Talk. She hadn't been on any other podcasts to my understanding at the time. I think this may have been her first podcast episode. We flew her to Seattle, sat down with an in studio audience. And what I like about this episode and what I have returned to it time and time again, several, uh, times this year, in fact. It is about connection and belonging and how we as people in an increasingly busy, noisy culture, how do we do that? How do we stay connected to the ones we love? How do we not betray ourselves? Uh, how do we step into vulnerability? And I can't tell you, this is the thing. When I get blocked creatively, I go into this episode to tap into that vulnerability, that authenticity. And Brene says, I'll just tell you the truth. Sounds different when she says it. So today's episode is an absolutely stunning, beautiful one again. One of the very first times that Brene had had been in public, to my knowledge, she had done some stuff with Oprah, um, outside of being a researcher, uh, at the University of Houston, uh, and I know you're going to enjoy this show again. One of my very favorite episodes that we've recorded on the show. I listen to it often and I hope you enjoy it today. Enjoy the show. Yours truly and the one and only Brene Brown.
Speaker C: M.
Speaker B: Hi, Internet, I'm Chase Jarvis. Welcome to another episode of Chase Jarvis Live. Once a month, I try and sit down with someone who has completely blown my mind, someone who's a huge inspiration, has helped me personally transform, and I have a very strong hunch that they'll be able to help you out there in the Internet world and you folks in the in sodia audience transform your lives as well. This person is no, uh, exception to that. They're at the top of that list. Today's guest, she gave this amazing TED talk. I think it's one of the most seen TED talks of all time. It's about 12 million views the last time I checked, which was a while ago. I've watched the thing at least 10 times myself. And that. I think she had that epiphany. What she called. She told me earlier it was sort of like a breakdown. Afterwards, she gave this amazing talk and she said, what in the hell did I just do? Ironically, that thing was the catapult for her that transformed her career. Put her on the New York Times best seller list with her book, most recently, Daring greatly. Big, warm CG live welcome for Ms. Brene Brown. We love you.
Speaker C: Thank you so much.
Speaker B: You're comfortable? Welcome, hotties. It's that good, right? It's that good. They love you that much. It's not the Rolling Stones, it's Brene Brown. Uh, well, I'm no Oprah, but I'm gonna do my best. I know you guys are tight friends and I've seen you on her couch a lot. Maybe you can compare notes afterwards, let me know what I can do better. But this ain't about me. It's about you and this.
Speaker C: You have more drinks for sure.
Speaker B: I do. I'm a three beverage minimum here. This is your book. Congratulations.
Speaker C: Thank you.
Speaker B: Tell me. Well, actually, I want to go back to.
Speaker C: I love that book.
Speaker D: Actually.
Speaker C: I do.
Speaker B: I love it too. Actually, I have it on my iPad here as well. I might pull up a couple of, uh, uh, sections that I highlighted and you can tell me if I'm interpreting them right. But what was the impetus? Go ahead and give us the backstory, please.
Speaker C: You know, I love that book because, you know, it's probably to date the thing that, you know, the book that has all of my research in it. Um, and I like it because, well, I like it and I hate it. Um, like, I really should have called it daring. Dammit. I really like it because it reminds me because it's not like I am, um, not like a guru or a. It's like, oh, I've had these thoughts and here's how I think we should all live. It's that I went out and researched and found out that I was not doing the things that I.
Speaker B: That your research participants.
Speaker C: The research participants, like, really changed my life. And so I love that book because it's a constant reminder to me about why it's hard sometimes when you put yourself out there. Of course it's hard. Yeah. And so I love it because it. I love it. It pisses me off. I Love it. Yeah. But it's a good reminder.
Speaker B: Sort of like life, right?
Speaker C: Kind of like life, yes.
Speaker B: Like those of us who are and
Speaker C: everybody you know in life, these people
Speaker B: have come from far and wide. We've had people come from out of state, travel far. To be able to sit here with you to understand the idea of vulnerability to me as a type A, like, male, was real hard. It's real hard. There was a lot of resistance, like, uh, I don't eat no stinking daring greatly book. But then inside of your head, there's like, there's that voice. So I imagine that it's not just type A males that have that voice, that we all have that voice. What is the voice and what is daring greatly? How does daring greatly help us work through that voice?
Speaker C: Yeah, I had a new thought about that a couple weeks ago. I think type A males, for sure, but I think it's really all of us. I think the majority of us were raised with the belief that vulnerability is weakness. Um, that it's best to armor up when we wake up in the morning, go out into the world. Don't put yourself out there. Don't let yourself get hurt. Um, really stay closed. Um, because it's not worth the risk, it's not worth the criticism. It's not worth. You know, we have this program called the Daring Way, where we train coaches and therapists in our work. And one of the exercises we do is we put up this big poster that says vulnerability is. And then participants fill out a post it note about how they would finish that sentence stem vulnerability is. And then we all look at that. And so there's tons of them that'll say, vulnerability is weakness. Vulnerability is showing too much of yourself. But one of them just struck me the other day, and it said, vulnerability is the first step to betrayal. And so it's showing enough of yourself that someone could use it to hurt you. So we all grew up with this myth that vulnerability is weakness. But what's interesting to me and what I think is the source of a lot of the problems today is we were also mostly raised to believe that it was important to be brave for sure. So here you've got this thing where vulnerability is weakness, but you need to be brave and courageous. So really, the only thing that can fit through that gauntlet of you can't be vulnerable, but you need to be brave is bravado, is that kind of blustery, um, posturing, kind of fake bravery. And I think that's what we see in the world today. Um, I think what we see. And I'm not talking about badassery, like, the good stuff, that you can back it up.
Speaker B: Sure.
Speaker C: I'm talking about if I can't be vulnerable, but I have to be brave, what's left except to fake being tough? And I think the way we fake being tough in our culture today is we're super cynical. We're super critical of other people who are putting themselves out there. We make fun of things. That's how we fake bravery. But the truth is, if you, you know, when we asked people in the research, what is vulnerability? They said things like. I mean, I remember sitting across from one someone who said, it's sitting down with my wife who has stage four breast cancer and making plans for our young kids. It's calling hospice and having a conversation with them about my dad. It's the very first date I went on after my divorce. It's trying to get pregnant after my second miscarriage. Vulnerability is never easy, and it feels terrible, but there's no evidence that it's anything but courage. I mean, the best example, I think, and something that I think everyone in here and everyone watching can relate to is picking up the phone and making that call after something horrible happens to someone we care about. Yeah, right. And we look at the phone and we're like, I really need to call. I can't believe her husband dropped dead. He was 45. I just. You know what? I'm going to call in an hour. She's probably resting. And then an hour goes by. Then you're like, you know what? She's probably got family over for dinner. I'll call tomorrow. And we just keep.
Speaker B: Are you in my brain right now?
Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, right now. I know. I mean, it's human nature. And then. But the question is, what happens when an hour turns to a week, turns to a month, and then we run into that person at the grocery store and we haven't called? Like, what does that feel like for us? It's shame.
Speaker B: Yeah, it feels shameful.
Speaker C: It's shaming. But what happens when we just pick up the phone and go, uh, there's nothing I can say to make this better except, I love you, I care about you, and I'll walk through this with you. And then when we hang up from that call, we know we didn't fix anything because there's nothing fixable about that situation. But we feel in line with our values. We feel like I did the courageous right thing.
Speaker B: Authentic self.
Speaker C: The authentic self. And it's not about how this Makes me feel it's about making the call. So, to me, I, um, think the most profoundly dangerous myth is the idea that vulnerability is weakness. There's no evidence.
Speaker B: Well, the audience that's here in the. In studio, um, and primarily the audience that's online, uh, we've got people tuning in from 100 countries worldwide right now. There are largely creatives, because that's the audience that we've sort of built this show around. And I. One of the reasons I was really excited to have you on the show is because I personally, My personal experience has been that the best stuff that I've ever done, like, the best art, the best creativity, has always come when I'm the most scared. Like, I can't believe I'm gonna hit send on this. Or I can't believe I'm gonna publish this book. Or the. And there's. There's a. Just a, uh, huge preponderance of evidence that the best work that we do is that work and everything else is sort of. It's flimsy and we see the best art. I mean, Macklemore is a friend. He's performed right here in this, the studio. And to watch that guy lay it out there. Can you imagine a hip hop artist talking about gay marriage, talking about having, um, addiction issues, and he's the number one artist in the country right now. That's very different than hip hop. And that my experience, a lot of the folks that I revere, their experience. Can you confirm that? How can you tie vulnerability and creativity together for us? Because that's who's listening today.
Speaker C: Yeah. So first I wanted to say I'm a huge Macklemore fan. What? What? Okay. Huge for that. Uh, yeah. I took my kids and like, 40 of them, I think, to a concert in Houston.
Speaker B: Uh, Ben and Ryan are amazing.
Speaker C: Yeah. And I think they were kept by my kids. Kids were like, chill. I'm like. My kids are like, be in the parents, section 4. For the reason that. Here's why I think Macklemore is. They're both. Ryan and McLemore are very talented people, first and foremost. Secondly, the truth is, we are so sick and tired of being afraid. We live in this culture of deep scarcity. And I don't talk about this a lot because it riles up people in this country. But 911 was a huge changing point for us, for sure. I had started my research, very obviously, coincidentally, six months before 9 11, so. Because I'm, um, a qualitative researcher kind of on the ground, looking in people's Eyes interviewing people about their lived experiences. I have seen firsthand how that has changed us. Um, it has driven this amazing, just all consuming culture of scarcity, of fear. We're not safe enough, we're not rich enough, we're not perfect enough, we're not certain enough. Um, and you can always tell when we're in a scarcity culture because the two headlines that drive everything from the news to our conversations at dinner are what are we supposed to be afraid of? And whose fault is it? That's the big conversation. Okay, what should I be most afraid of today?
Speaker B: I hate admitting that, but that's true.
Speaker C: And whose fault is it?
Speaker B: Almost all the conversations go to that.
Speaker C: That's it. I mean, if you turn on any cable news, they are going to increase their audience ratings by making sure they're telling you what you need to be terrified about and whose fault it is. That's how it works.
Speaker B: I saw uh, a news, uh, bit about shark attacks and how they're up more shark attacks now than ever before. I also heard that more people die from vending machines falling on them than shark attacks.
Speaker C: Right.
Speaker B: Literally. That's the math. And to me that's that fear mongering, that how can we have a society that's driven in culture and the beautiful things in life when we've got this sort of black cloud that's being projected above us.
Speaker C: The hard thing about it is, and the, where it gets uncomfortable for everybody here, here and watching is that we have to own that because media will only elevate and rise to the level that we'll accept it. So when the public sees someone doing something different, they're going to switch it to the channel where they're like, here's what you need to be afraid of. And so we tolerate it, we ask for it, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. They're completely metrics and rating driven. So people are watching for that reason. And so to me, when someone like Macklemore or someone like yourself or anyone who uh, is out there putting it out there, we're fans because we are sick and tired of being afraid. We want to see someone doing something ballsy. We want to believe that can happen.
Speaker B: Should I flip over the table now? And,
Speaker C: and you know what? And that's a great example because that's what we're used to. That's what usually passes for brave is like, you know, that kind of stuff. But what we want to see is someone singing Same Love in a genre that uses hateful terms like faggot and Queer every five minutes. That's what's brave. What we want to see is we want to turn on the television and see someone owning a story that's really hard to own. We want to see a corporation taking responsibility for making a mistake. That's what we want to see.
Speaker B: And for all you folks out there who are art makers or makers or creators, if I was to say something that has unlocked things for me, it's literally it's going there. And if it's uncomfortable, that means usually it means it's the right thing for me.
Speaker C: And I think that sucks.
Speaker B: It does suck.
Speaker A: I do.
Speaker C: We, uh, were talking about you and me and Kate, your wife were talking before and I was like, it's a terrible thing when you realize that it gives you courage in uncomfortable moments. But when I'm doing something that's easy, I'm like, whatever, this is not gonna be a big thing. This is not gonna be important because, um, you know, and I don't think we have to look for discomfort. Sure.
Speaker B: There's plenty of it out there, right?
Speaker C: There's plenty of it that comes, you know, every time you answer the phone. There's something usually, you know. But I do think for those of you who blog or write, when you hit post on that thing that you're really scared about writing, that's when you're like, oh, that was important. I'm glad I did it. When you put the picture out, you know, and creatives, it's interesting to me because there is no creativity without vulnerability
Speaker B: that might get retweeted a couple million times. I'm just guessing.
Speaker C: But I mean, there isn't.
Speaker B: It's so true.
Speaker C: There isn't. Um, which is why, I mean, I think this is really important. You know, after the TED talk, I didn't regret it, but I was afraid. Yeah, I regretted it. I was like, I don't think I should have done that. You know, it went viral. And then the whole story behind the daring greatly quote is such an important, to me, non discussed issue for creatives,
Speaker B: which is, we're go there right now.
Speaker C: Okay.
Speaker B: So I want to. Can you do the quote?
Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I could do the quote for sure.
Speaker B: Okay. This is an amazing quote. And I have personally used it in its incredibly effective, uh, defense mechanism and helps me emotionally.
Speaker C: And it's a great visual. In fact, the daring way that the certification program we have is built completely around this quote and all the imagery around it. We use arenas and shields. So the quote is Theodore Roosevelt. And I'm going to make it a little shorter. But it's not the critic who counts. It's not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who's actually in the arena, whose face is marred with dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly but comes up short again and again. Who in the end may know the triumph of high achievement, but when he fails, he does so daring greatly.
Speaker B: Damn.
Speaker C: Yeah, it's just great. It's just.
Speaker E: Wow.
Speaker C: It's just, it's just, it's.
Speaker E: And
Speaker C: I loved it because the three things I say it changed about me were one, it informed the book and the book title. And I use that, you know, they say a, ah, picture's worth a thousand words, then a metaphor's worth a thousand pictures, you know, so. And we love metaphors. It's how we think, you know, that's why we, we grab onto them. But the first thing I think it changed in me was this is how I'm going to talk about vulnerability. It's not winning or losing. It's having the guts to show up and be seen when there are no predictions of outcome. And I think the thing that it really dismantled for me was another myth that I fifth generation Texan. Vulnerability was not tolerated in my family at all growing up. I mean, it was, it was, buck up, little camper, buck up, suck it up. Soldier on. You need to learn how to ride your bike. There'll be no training wheels. What are you gonna be 30 with training wheels? We don't need training wheels. You know, um, yeah, I mean, that was the thing. You're gonna learn how to swim. You don't need goggles. Like, what are you gonna get in the middle of the Atlantic a mile from shore, and you're gonna have all. You're gonna need goggles. I'm like, I'm three. If I'm a mile from shore in the Atlantic and it's over, you know, goggles or no goggles. But that's just the way we were raised. And, you know, I look back and there are some things I would do different that I'm doing differently with my own kids than my parents did. And some kids, some things that I pray to God every day I do as well. Um, they did not. They were not squeamish about us experiencing adversity. You know, if we had something go on, they were like, we're here, we'll back you up, but you got to take it on Sis. That was my nickname. Sissy. I take it on. Sissy. Yeah. Yeah. Ah. And so I think that gave me the persistence to have the career I have and the tenacity. Um, but the one myth that I think I was raised that was really dangerous was this idea that you're either brave or you're afraid. And the truth is most of us are brave and afraid in the exact same moment all. All day long.
Speaker B: That's brilliant.
Speaker C: And, you know, we don't, you know, I'm afraid right now.
Speaker B: Same.
Speaker C: But I just keep showing up. I'm here, so I'm being brave too. Um, so that was the first thing. This is how I'm gonna talk about vulnerability. The second thing was basically, if you're going to live in the arena, you're going to get your ass kicked. It's what you sign up for when you decide to be brave, which is just hard. But you know, for me personally, my faith is the organizing principle in my life. And I think it calls on me to be courageous as part of my faith. So if I'm going to be a faithful, courageous person, I'm signing up for some butt kicking. You know, if I.
Speaker B: It's true.
Speaker C: I mean, it's true. Like, for example, one of the things I'm really working on during Lent is gossip. Yeah. Hard. And so one of the things I do is like, now no one in my kid's school ever calls me or tells me anything because, you know, they're like, why you don't, you know. And it's not that I get judged. I'm like, oh, you should be gossiping. I'm just like, I just try to redirect and get out of it, which is really hard because I love gossip. I love some good judgy stuff. Um, so. But I've been criticized. They're like, you know, I feel a little bit out grouped sometimes because what do people do when they don't know each other very well? To bond. Talk bad about somebody. Right. Talk. The last thing is the part where I think creatives, really, we need to have this conversation more and more. And I consider myself a creative. I'm a writer.
Speaker B: Absolutely.
Speaker C: And the way. And I'm a grounded theory researcher, which is like very creative based research. Um, is this, if you are not in the arena, uh, also getting your ass kicked on a regular basis, I am not open or interested in your feedback.
Speaker D: Boom.
Speaker A: Spoken.
Speaker B: No,
Speaker C: and here's why. And this is the part that I think people underestimate people. You know, if you're in the arena, and you email me or say something to me at an event and you say, look, I'm really questioning your research because you forgot the entire academic literature on intimacy, and you should be thinking about that. That's not bad.
Speaker B: I'm not going to say that to you ever.
Speaker C: Okay,
Speaker B: sorry, Continue.
Speaker C: If you say that, then I'm going to say, wow. Okay, I should look into that. That's feedback. If you're sitting in the cheap seats doing nothing.
Speaker B: These seats are very expensive, by the way.
Speaker C: No, these are like, to be seen on tv, uh, Chase Jarvis thing seats. No, but if you're in the cheap seats, not contributing, not putting yourself out there, not risking anything and just criticizing, I can't be open to your feedback for this reason. And this is something that creatives, I don't think fully get. It hurts and it changes who we are. That whole. When I hear people say, and it's often creatives and leaders and organizations who are here, look, I don't give a. Anyone thinks that is its own kind of hustle, for sure.
Speaker B: I may or may not have used that at one time.
Speaker C: I for sure did. Right? I mean, but here, it's a tight wire. Here's the dilemma with that. When you don't care at all what anyone thinks, you lose your capacity for connection. When you are defined by what people think, you lose the courage to be vulnerable.
Speaker B: This is really hurting my brain right now. This is powerful. Seriously. So, like, can we come back, replay that one more time? So go ahead. I'll let you do it, because that was too good.
Speaker C: So when you stop caring what anyone thinks at all, when we don't care at all what people think, we lose our capacity for connection.
Speaker B: Got, um, it.
Speaker D: Which.
Speaker C: What is a heart if it's not connection and love? Right? Yep. So when we stop caring at all what people think, we lose our ability to connect. When we're defined by what people think, we lose the courage to be vulnerable. So what is so important, I think for all of us, and not just creatives, but all of us. I wish I had my wallet. Um, it's somewhere in here, but I would pull it out and show you. Oh, it is.
Speaker B: Oh, it's like that box in Pulp Fiction. I want to know what's in there now.
Speaker C: Okay, so this is what. So the question becomes the dilemma. If we have to care what people think, but we can't be defined by what people think. So what's the solution? My answer is that you get a very small piece of paper, I suggest one inch by One inch. Uh, I mean, that's small, right? How small is that? Like that?
Speaker B: Yep.
Speaker C: Yeah, it's small. And on that piece of paper, you put the names of people whose opinions actually matter to you.
Speaker A: Wow.
Speaker C: And so I carry my list with me. I have a little. I do. I carry it in my wallet. Um, and on it are the people whose opinions of me really, really matter. There's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. There's eight names on my little piece of paper. Don't zoom in, because the people who aren't on my paper won't be appreciative. And I'll tell you why. It's really helpful. It's helpful because we have a tendency to. So when I'm walking my tightrope of, uh. I do care what people think, but I don't want to be defined by it. So there are people whose opinions of me matter for sure. So these the people on my list and the people who I think should be on everyone's list are the people who love you, not despite your vulnerability and imperfections, but because of your vulnerability and imperfections. So when I'm on some tangent trying to hack into the back of Amazon to figure out who left the mean comment so I can put a hit out on their. On them.
Speaker B: Send one of Jeff Bezos drones.
Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. Nothing. I wouldn't do anything violent, but, like, drop a book on their head or something. But what, um, I would try to remember is they're not on my list. Like, what am I doing? So if I look like, you know, I get very nervous about things that are on camera because I don't like it.
Speaker B: There's no cameras here.
Speaker C: No. I get really nervous because then it's. All of a sudden, I'm outside of my comfort zone. It's hair and makeup. Who. Where's that?
Speaker B: Christy?
Speaker C: Christy?
Speaker B: Yeah. Where are you, Christy? There she is.
Speaker C: I'm taking you everywhere I go the rest of my life. Um, she was amazing, but a lot of times I just had hair and makeup done for something, and this is how it started. You have elevens. Um, have you thought about Botox? And I'm like, I have actually thought about it. But, you know, and, you know. And if you. What did you. You've got marionette lines. Like, for the first time, I'm like, oh, my God, I wish I didn't know that name, because now when I, uh. You know, like this. And we could fill those. What do you fill them with?
Speaker B: Like, wood putty? I mean.
Speaker C: Yeah, kind of. Yeah. And I Don't mind. I mean, that's in people. To each their own, but so I get really insecure about that stuff.
Speaker B: You look great.
Speaker C: Well, thank you. But in the end, what I do is I'll come home and see. He was like, oh, man, you look gorgeous. And I'll be like, whatever, you love me. You don't count.
Speaker B: Okay, wait a minute.
Speaker D: Right.
Speaker C: So what most of us have a tendency to do is steamroll over the people whose opinion should matter to get acceptance and approval by the people who really should not matter at all.
Speaker E: Wow.
Speaker C: And I think creatives are notorious at doing that because it's really not.
Speaker B: You're not making it for somebody out there.
Speaker C: You're not making it for someone out there.
Speaker B: You're making it for someone in here and someone who's very close to you. I feel like that's.
Speaker C: So I'm gonna tell you something. I've never said this anywhere in public. I'm gonna say nice seat belts on. Um, so this was my first book and I wish I could rewrite this book. I think this book has more information about shame. This is a shame. This is the shame book than hold
Speaker B: it up so we can see.
Speaker C: Oh, this is the shame book. This is like. If you wanna know about shame every, uh, there's like thousand stories in here from the research. It's all women in shame. It's great. When I wrote. Yeah, it's great. But I'm a shame researcher. I like different things than y'.
Speaker E: All.
Speaker C: But, uh, but you know what? When I wrote this book, I pictured over my head the critics. So the mobile that was over my head when I was writing this were my academic peers. Um, the researchers, the academic journal publishers. And I think I could have made this book easier to read. And I think one of the reasons it hasn't resonated as much. I mean, people like the book and I'm proud of the book. But I think one of the reasons is it's got some academic language in it. Because what I tried to do is get my. I use my sisters and my mom as examples. We're all big readers. My mom sends us self help books as subtle messages. But would my mom and my sisters buy this, uh, at the bookstore? Yeah, I think they would. But I want the academics to do it too. So when we say in Texas, there's only thing in the middle of the road, dead armadillos and lines. Um, then this book. Yeah, and this book, like, failed greatly and then came back with paper. It was a long story. Then this Book.
Speaker B: We're going to make it unfail right now. This is.
Speaker C: Yeah, because I mean, I will tell you this, this is the deep drop into the deep, dark, swift waters of shame for women. But this book gave me the courage personally and to have my career. Had I not gone through what was in that book, I wouldn't have this career. This made me hammer down on those gremlins for sure. These books I wrote with my friends in mind, that was the mobile over my head when I was writing. I don't care about the critics for these books, these books. I want my friends to read it and say, the people on my list, she left it all out there. She did it and she was honest and we know her and this is who she is. Because I have big academic shame gremlins. It's really tough.
Speaker B: It's a sophisticated group and they're judging and they have.
Speaker C: Well, I will tell you a great story. I thought it was just me was I could wallpaper this room in rejection letters. People make up the greatest stories about me. Like I'm the child of academics and I wasn't. I mean I graduated from college when I was 30. I was on the 12 year plan.
Speaker B: I was seriously, I was on the five, so.
Speaker C: 12, yeah, five 12. Yeah. And a year of it I was hitchhiking through Europe. Um, ah, and not in like the academic youth hostile way either, in the woo hoo. But.
Speaker B: So
Speaker C: no one was interested in this book at all. And I mean, I'm not kidding, I mean not a thousand, probably at least 150 rejection letters. I couldn't even get an agent. They were like four letters. Dear Dr. Blank, as sexy as a book on shame sounds. So I self published it.
Speaker B: Good for you.
Speaker C: Yeah, it was great. Except that was before self publishing was cool. Um, and so one of my peers, academic peers, was like, oh, I read that book that you wrote on shame, and it's great. I'm gonna include it in my syllabus this fall. I was like, thanks. Then two weeks later he goes, okay, did you self publish that? And I said I did. And he said, we're taking it off the syllabus. We don't do vanity publishing in my classroom. What?
Speaker B: Wait, you need me to kick this guy's ass?
Speaker C: Yes. Um, wait, then it gets better. This is great. But then, so it fails. It does horrible. I go through my shame storm, blah, blah, blah. It was bad.
Speaker B: This is creativity at work right here.
Speaker C: No, it was really bad.
Speaker B: You read a book, you take a
Speaker C: picture, you put it out There.
Speaker D: Yeah.
Speaker C: Yeah. It's horrible. And then someone got, you know, then I met somebody at a party who knew someone. Then a couple people were interested in the book. A couple publishers bid for the book. They gave me an advance. It was like, academic advance is like I heard of. And they published a book. Nice dinner. Yeah. So then I go into a faculty room, a faculty meeting, and the same guy was like, oh, my God. I heard you got, like, a trade, not just like an academic publisher, but a real publisher. I was like, I did. And he goes, you are like. You're like the people who did El Mariachi, that movie on their credit card. You're like an indie. I'm like, a what? He's like, you're like an indy, like an independent. And I'm like, really? Because two weeks ago, it was a vanity publishing book.
Speaker B: Yeah. And now I'm a renegade.
Speaker C: Now I'm a renegade. And he's like, I'll put it back. I'm like, you're not allowed. I'm like, no, no, I don't recommend that. That was just. That was. But I. That was not wholehearted. But I'm not all the time wholehearted. Just break. Yeah. Ah. Just. Yeah. And then he is like, what do you mean? I was like, I don't want you teaching my content. You clearly don't get it.
Speaker B: Wow. Powerful.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker B: I know that the world, um, tweets, um, are coming in like mad questions, and I know the in studio audience has some questions. They told me before we went live here. So I would love to hear from a couple of folks in the audience. You have Dr. Brene Brown sitting in front of you. This isn't a therapy session, but I want you to come clean. Give me something, please. Put your hand in the air if you can. Yes. Right here in the front. We'll bring a microphone your way. Say who you are, and it's you and Brene.
Speaker C: Hi, I'm Erica. Nice to meet you.
Speaker D: Is this on?
Speaker B: Um, yeah, this is on. Yeah.
Speaker D: So I get the whole vulnerable thing in the personal life with family and friends, but as a business owner and a woman, um, I'm having trouble transferring that over to that. So I'm wondering how you made that connection and made that leap and if it was a struggle for you as well.
Speaker C: That's a great question. Thank you, Erica. So what was interesting about your question is, after the TED Talk went viral, the majority of calls I got were from organizations like big Fortune 500 companies, saying, we saw your TED talk. We really want you to Come in and talk to our leaders or, you know. And I said, okay, what do you want me to talk about? And they'd say, anything but shame and vulnerability. Well, that's what the TED Talk was on. They're like, no, we can't do that. We don't do that. Women leaders and women business owners were far more resistant than male, 100%. One of the most vivid experiences I have, memories I have of an experience that I had was that I was getting ready to do the opening keynote for a large, large, large corporation who had a female CEO. I was standing right behind her. She had no idea who I was. And she said to the person putting on the event, let me get this straight. The opening keynote is a woman talking about weakness? How did
Speaker E: you.
Speaker C: Yeah, I was like, oh, awesome.
Speaker B: Awesome.
Speaker C: Yeah. And the person talking to her obviously could see me. And she was like, yeah, right?
Speaker D: Yeah.
Speaker C: And the woman turned around. I was like, hi, I'm M. Brene. You know, what do you say? You know? And so I was like, you know, what? Are you going to be here for the keynote? She goes, I wasn't planning on it. I said. Said it would be really. I think it would be very helpful and essential for you to be here. Why am I talking to the people who work under you if this is your perception of my work and you're not even going to hear it?
Speaker B: Bam.
Speaker C: Um, so, yeah, uh, so she said, I will definitely stay. She sat in the front row and cried through the whole entire thing. And she was just like. Afterwards, she came up and she said, I get really weepy thinking about it as a woman, too, and as a strong woman and as a business owner for myself, too. She said, I thought I was successful because I wasn't vulnerable. And now what I'm realizing is that I was successful because I'm smart and I'm good at what I do. I am stuck here and with this company because, um, I'm unwilling to be vulnerable. I cannot go any further. And so I think what the issue is around work is that everything that we want more of at work, Trust, engagement, accountability, adaptability to change, innovation, creativity, every single one of those is born of vulnerability. And the problem is that we need to rethink and redefine what we mean when we say vulnerable. What does that mean? Does that mean, like, I was just reading an hbr. It, uh, was either an HBR or Harvard Business Review or, um, Fast Company. I was on a plane last week reading, um, something that had something about vulnerability is okay at work. And I had a picture of a guy in a suit with a big teardrop coming down his cheek, like, um. What I mean by vulnerability is. I mean, to show up, you know. The definition of vulnerability. Let's just use that from the data, is uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. How can you be a good leader who's not willing to walk into uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure? What is the difference, I think, between a. What I would call an armored leader and a vulnerable present leader is the ability to say, yeah, this is scary. We don't know how this is going to turn out, but I have confidence in us, and I think we can take it on. And if we fail,
Speaker B: we will fail by daring greatly.
Speaker C: We'll fail by daring greatly. And then we'll clean that up, and we'll learn from it, and we'll embed the learning into our culture. It was actually where I was coming back, reading from that article is I was coming back from Facebook, so I did a talk.
Speaker B: Never heard of it.
Speaker C: Yeah, it's a really sweet little organization. Yay big. Um, but I was. It was almost like being John Malkovich when I was there, because they had converted the bottom, uh, of this corridor of this hotel to, like, what their headquarters looks like. And the whole theme was dare. And so at their headquarters, they have these posters, all these dare quotes. Um, you know, fortune favors the bold. Be brave, Screw up, you know, everywhere. And so it was like someone was in my brain. Um, but what I realized is that here's the problem, I think, with vulnerability at work,
Speaker D: you.
Speaker C: Vulnerability is courage. In me, it's weakness. It's the first thing I look for in you as someone who works for me. And the last thing I want to show you as a leader. But show me. Show, uh, me a. And here's the other thing. The myth that I really want to deconstruct, and I have never had the chance. I like the long format.
Speaker B: The long format. I'm m. Just like, I'm on for the ride, right, dad?
Speaker D: He's.
Speaker C: This is good. I love it. Is. What I hear people say is, yes, you can be vulnerable at work, but not too vulnerable. That's like saying you can be healthy but not too healthy. Like, you can't really be too healthy. When people say too vulnerable, what they mean is there's boundary issues, but there's a very simple equation, which is vulnerability minus boundaries is not vulnerability at all. There's no such thing. It's like, one of the things that is why I think of myself as a creative, as a researcher. Too is I'm a grounded theory researcher. Meaning I start with no theory. I build a theory through long interviews, people's lived experiences. And then the hardest thing for grounded theory researcher, the hardest challenge for me is we have to come up with words that explain what we're finding in a way that'll capture the minds and hearts of the people reading the research. So the term. So people ask, why do you think your TED talk was successful? And for me, or why do you think your work is successful? It's as easy as I've named something we all experience. I've given it words, and I let people know they're not alone. What does art do? It captures what we all experience and lets people know they're not alone.
Speaker B: Exactly. A great song, a great photograph, a great film. Absolutely right.
Speaker C: So that's why I'm really sticky about words. It's not like an academic pet peeve. But when people say so for when people say we need more shame in the world. People are so horrible to each other. People are mean spirited. We need, you know, you hurt somebody, you should feel shame. No, no, no, no. You should feel guilt. You should feel more empathy, but not shame.
Speaker B: Can I try and pass a test? So I've read the book several times. Guilt. Yeah, check. But guilt is like, I did a bad thing.
Speaker C: Right.
Speaker B: Shame is I'm a bad person.
Speaker C: Right.
Speaker B: And there's a strong difference between those.
Speaker C: Huge difference. Huge difference. Guilt is shame is highly, highly correlated with addiction, depression, uh, violence, bullying, eating disorders. And that's important to understand. But what's even more important than understanding that is that guilt is inversely correlated with those outcomes. Meaning if you're someone. So what we do is we can measure whether you're more guilt prone or more shame prone by the way you talk to yourself. So if I knocked this glass over and I thought, so if you're self. Probably perfect. If your self talk was, God, I'm so stupid. God, I'm so stupid. I'm on television. I'm so stupid. That shame. Self talk. If on the other hand, your thought process was God, that wasn't smart to leave the glass on the edge while we're on camera.
Speaker B: I poured it on my shoe, actually.
Speaker C: Did you? But it's worth the prop, right? It's totally worth the prop. So if you spill it over and your thought was, boy, that wasn't smart to put that on the edge. Edge. The focus is not on self, it's on behavior. Huge difference. I mean, we find that people who use a lot of Guilt, self talk, who. Separate who they are from those choices. I'm, um, not stupid. I did a stupid thing. I'm not an idiot. That was just not a good choice. Have lower rates of addiction, less likely to end up with the outcomes that we see with shame. So to me, it's really important when people say, hey, we need more shame. I'm like, I'm calling bull on that. Why is it that we need more shame when we know not just me, other researchers, 50 years of data. We know shame is highly correlated with violence, depression, all these horrible outcomes. So let's get the words right. You know what I mean? We have an obesity, uh, problem. We don't need more starvation. Right. Why? Because it's not the right word. So we don't have an overly vulnerable, uh, problem. Because vulnerability without boundaries is not vulnerability. We may have a disclosure issue. We may have an oversharing issue. We may not understand our roles and our boundaries. If I'm sitting in front of a group of venture capitalists, it's not my job, and you're my partner in this business. It's not my job in front of the VCs and all of our employees to come up and say, um, I'm in over my head. I'm not sure what's happening. And I'm pretty sure it's all gonna go to. In the next two weeks. It's not appropriate. I have a really. I have a really misunderstanding my role. There are people who have left jobs here. Um, it is my role, however, to do that with someone. I would not want to be led or be invested with someone who's not having that conversation somewhere with their therapist, maybe with their partner. For me to say, listen, we have this meeting tomorrow with the VCs, and, uh, everybody. But here's how I'm feeling. I'm feeling in over my head. I'm feeling like this whole thing can go down in two weeks. Vulnerability requires an understanding of boundaries. Where we share with whom we share and why we're sharing. But I will go back to the VC thing, which is interesting. I interviewed a VC who happened to be sitting next to me on a plane back from San Francisco a couple.
Speaker B: Did you just throw him right in this? Oh, you're sitting next to me. Turn on the mic and just interview him.
Speaker C: Well, no, Yeah, I don't. Well, here's what's interesting. Grounded theory. We don't record our interviews.
Speaker B: Oh.
Speaker C: Because we believe that when people are recorded, they give what we call proper line data. They say what they think they're supposed to do. So we were talking about failure and vulnerability. And he said, here's the thing with me and my partners. If you haven't failed at least twice at a million dollars each fail, we don't give you any money.
Speaker D: Wow.
Speaker C: And I was like, can you afford that?
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker C: That was a legitimate question. Right? And he said, we can't afford not to because we can't afford to give money to people who don't know, have the skill set to get out from underneath failure.
Speaker B: Brilliant.
Speaker C: You know, and that's vulnerability. That is, you know. And another good question, I get asked all the time, are entrepreneurses the. Isn't the entrepreneurial axiom failure is not an option? Isn't that what entrepreneurs say, failure is not an option? And I said, no, let's walk through it. I've got a business and I'm an entrepreneur and things are not going well. I'm bleeding money, lots of turnover, it's not working out. It's the entrepreneur who can say, holy crap, failure is an absolute option. It actually feels like an. It's right there. What's the word I'm looking for?
Speaker B: Imminent.
Speaker C: Imminent. Yes. I kept saying intimate, but it's not an intimate option. It's an imminent option. Um, it's that person who says, oh God, failure is absolutely an option right now. I need to turn this stuff around. Usually we don't see people starting to make more uncomfortable choices, changing things, unless they recognize, oh, failure is absolutely an option. Cause otherwise, what you do when you don't really believe that failure's an option is you just start grinding harder on the exact same stuff you're doing. Right?
Speaker E: Yeah.
Speaker B: That doesn't work. Same input, expecting a different outcome. I think that's called crazy.
Speaker C: Crazy. Yeah.
Speaker B: I would like to go to what I call the phones right now, this big phone here.
Speaker E: I'd like to.
Speaker B: Hello and Bleeds Inc. Wants to know how do you deal with super sweet but passive aggressive remarks from others?
Speaker A: Hmm.
Speaker D: Hm.
Speaker B: M. I have a Southern friend. Enough said. Is the parenthesis a Southern friend? Southern friend. That's what this person. That's what Leads Inc. Said, I got a Southern friend. That's like, I'm hearing compliments bathed in, um, passive aggressiveness.
Speaker C: You gotta be really M. We can joke about that because it's. We all know what that feels like, but that stuff is really hurtful. But more dangerous than being hurtful. It's crazy. Making. It's what we call in mental health gaslighting from the old Bergman filled gaslight where it's like, I think, you know, Angela Lansbury's like 21 in this film. It's like an old black and white film where this is in black and white. Yeah. Perfect ode to gaslighting.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker C: Um, but it's an interesting story where a millionaire woman marries this really creepy guy and he's in cahoots with the chambermaid, who every now and then they'll be walking down the stairs or through the hall, and the chambermaid will dim the lights, the gas lights, and the woman will be like, what's going on? And then the creepy husband will say, I don't see anything. And they do that over the course. We use that term in domestic violence work a lot like, so pass it back. Passive aggressive can be gaslighting. It can be crazy making over time. Because your normal response to it is, wow, what? And then Chase looks back at me and goes, nothing. I'm just saying that that was really an interesting choice. I'm like, but that really hurts my. Wow, Brene, I didn't know you were so sensitive. Um, I'm sorry. And then there we are. Then we're in the fist to cuffs position. Uh, which I'm not recommending. Um, so here's the thing. If that's the communication style of someone continuously, they can't be on your little piece of paper. They can't be on your little piece of paper. And if it's someone you love and care about, it's worth a conversation with them during a non heated moment. If it's not someone you love and care about.
Speaker B: Snip.
Speaker C: I mean, it's a filter.
Speaker B: It's a great filter.
Speaker C: It's a great filter. It's like one of the things, like, I'm gonna have a T shirt made. We should sell it and give it to the proceeds to charity. We can make a billion dollars.
Speaker B: Let's do it.
Speaker C: That says, if you bless my heart, I will kick your ass.
Speaker B: We're doing that.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker C: Because what happens in Texas is people will say, oh, bless your heart. Yeah. She'll say, oh, did you bring the black beans? They're interesting. Bless your heart. Like, one of the worst shame and guilt stories I have was from a woman. I had been out of town and Charlie was still like, he was less than a year. And I'd been out of town for a few days. And she confronted me at school. I said, well, she said she was talking to me, but she said, um, who takes care of those kids while you're away? And I said, my husband and my mom came in town, she said, oh, bless your heart. It's gotta be so hard letting someone raise those kids for you while you're out working. Ta da da. Yeah, sorry. Yeah. And so there is that to me
Speaker B: to grab the black beans and like, oh, yeah, right.
Speaker C: I mean, it's like. Unless you're like Barbara Jordan, she can bless my heart. But it is that Southern. Wow. She's wearing those white jeans and she just had that baby. Bless her heart.
Speaker B: I hope you never say that about me.
Speaker C: Bless your heart. No, I don't say it at all.
Speaker B: I like that, that T shirt idea. I think we should do something there. Let me work on that one. Someone's taking notes somewhere.
Speaker C: Yeah. So I think here's the thing. If it's worth your relationship, you got to sit down and say, and you got to be really careful in these conversations because they fall into the shame trap. You got to say, I shared this with you. When your response was this, it felt really loaded to me. It felt like, here are the words you were saying, but here's what the emotion behind the words felt. Felt like for me. But if those people are chronically like that, it's very easy for them to come back and say, whoa, you're super sensitive around that. And then you just go into the crazy train. Um, so
Speaker B: just say, care enough to confront that person. If I'm gonna give advice to this caller, it's just, you gotta care to confront in a meaningful and not confront.
Speaker C: You have to have a conversation during a non emotionally fueled time. Like, hey, can we talk about something? Here's. You know, it's hard for me to hear what you're saying, because how you're saying it is screaming, wow.
Speaker B: I think the same thing could be said for the creatives as well, the people not on your list. So where is this person on that person's list in your world?
Speaker C: That's the first question.
Speaker B: Yeah. If these people are on your list, then you have a, uh, responsibility to talk with them about it in a way that you can talk with other people. If they're not on the list, then you're as. You did that motion.
Speaker C: Well, you just have. Then you have to. I mean, this is the hardcore. Where do they sit down? You just have to figure out where. I mean, to me, I use that as a filter, but if it's someone I love or care about, um, I would. I mean, if it was somebody really loved, I'd go to counseling with that person. Even if it was a friend, I would say, would you mind Sitting down with a coach or somebody with me for an hour. We're communicating in a way that I finding is really hurtful for me. And it'd be very helpful if we could sit down with someone and figure out how I'm listening or what's going on where we're not sinking.
Speaker B: Powerful.
Speaker D: Yeah.
Speaker C: But I really also think it needs to be that passive aggressiveness is toxic.
Speaker B: It is. It's totally toxic. I'm going to ask a question. So the way I have thought about this in the past, and this is putting myself out there a little bit, is if there's a. Let's say, uh, one. Whether it's 100 people or a thousand people or a million people that are paying attention to your work as an artist, maybe in the social sphere or when you're sharing something, you create a movie or a book or a photo show or anything. And that if all of the commentary is just generally positive, then I personally, like, there's something wrong. I want to be able to make work that is meaningful to me that, uh, try and look in here instead of out there. And in the process, I found that that creates haters. There can be. If there's a million people, there can be 990,000 people that love what you did. And even if there's a 1% jerk factor, which we all know is probably a lot higher than that, but a 1% jerk factor is that means there's 10,000 people that hate you, that want to kill you, they hate your guts.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker B: Is that a fair. I'm saying if I don't read these negative things, yes, it hurts, but it means that I'm doing good work. And those people who don't like what I do, what I say, how I am in the world, yes, they're not on my list. Yes, they don't matter.
Speaker A: But it's still.
Speaker B: You read the comments. And then I try and go to the man in the arena quote, like, actually, since you're not in the public eye, like, if it's a peer that's saying that, I'm like, I call them up and say, man, thank you. What's going on? How am I doing? How, as this has been learned and I used to read all the YouTube comments, which now I can't even read them. Not because they're bad, because I don't know what they say, but,
Speaker C: yeah, me neither.
Speaker B: I don't know what om m f m o f fmg means anymore.
Speaker C: I'm sorry,
Speaker B: there's 2 and 40. What are the exclamation.
Speaker C: Points on something.
Speaker B: So how am I doing? And is that a fair mechanism? Am I not putting too much, too many walls up? And I'm trying to also talk about this, to create a little bit of a paradigm, like, to give people some actual tools to go out in the world and make great art and put it out there. And when they read things on YouTube, it doesn't get them down. So can we create a little framework? Is my framework good? If there's a enough people that are watching and someone's going to say something bad, they're not in the arena. Don't give them credit. If there's someone you recognize, then you want to have a conversation with them. And if there's someone you don't, then keep making stuff. Because there are people. For every person who's talked, there are probably 99 people who love it.
Speaker C: You know what? That's actually the framework I use for my work. Um, no, it really is exactly the framework I use for. What I want to say that is hard for me is I'm a pretty stubborn, tenacious person, and I've got a. I can get a lot of fight energy. Like, I can really like.
Speaker D: Ooh.
Speaker C: There are people who this framework would not work for. Okay, that. And maybe it didn't work for me at different times in my life, I think I would hate to lose all the art of the people who would be devastated by one or two bad comments. And there are people who can't get out from underneath one or two comments. And what I would say is, vet your stuff, Have a friend, have your partner. Before I had people working for me, my husband would read every comment and say, you should read these and you shouldn't read these. I don't. Now I have someone who works for me who vets everything. I don't. It's as hard for me to read. Like, I don't read a lot of the, oh, my God, it's great. Or your TED Talk did this for me. And I don't rot in hell and die. Um, I just want what's constructive that will make the work better. And so that's really the majority of what I read. But have someone vet them. You know, for someone to say, like, the comments for me after the TED Talk that really were devastating for me were really personal. They were very much like, um, less research, more Botox. Of course you embrace imperfection. What choice would you have if you had to look at yourself every morning and you were. You lose 10 pounds before you talk about worthiness. They were super personal, super hurtful, and super shaming. Because for women, the number one shame trigger is appearance. So what do people go after that want to hurt you? And the other ones were, I feel sorry for your children. Um, and so I got out from underneath those because there was a momentum with the TED Talk that I could not. I couldn't stop. Was bigger than me. Had I been able to control how much of myself I was putting out when those started coming in, my career would have ended there.
Speaker B: Wow, that's fascinating.
Speaker C: And so I guess what I want to say to people is some of the best creatives I know are very tender people who may or may not have the momentum of a viral TED Talk to keep them pushed out. And may, after reading something that, I mean, everyone sitting in here, everyone watching, can think of two or three things that are so shaming for them that, uh, they felt like if they heard other people saying those about them, they would die. People are going to say those things. And the more genuine and authentic your work is, the more people are going to know you and the more people are going to know what they can say to hurt you. Some people will not survive that. So what I would say is the framework you discussed, the one I use now works. I think if you've got some momentum and some success behind you, if you're new and you're putting your stuff out, vet your comments.
Speaker B: That's brilliant.
Speaker C: Don't read them. Do not read them. It's like, I hate to go back to cliche from 12 step rooms, but what people think of you is none of your business. It's like that thing. It's like, don't worry about it. And I think it's because I think if. It's almost, I don't have a choice now. In some ways, I mean, I could shut it all down and go home, but. And I also have enough success as people define it.
Speaker B: You got some wind at your back?
Speaker C: I got some wind at my back right now. But, like, I can tell you, like, I'm getting ready to go off the grid to write, and I am feeling horrendous pressure right now. I can imagine, like, this is gonna be the sophomore album no one listens to. Like, oh, my God. Oh, my God.
Speaker B: Um, can we. I think that was a beautiful little bow that you put on that. Um, Odermilkl wanted to know, how do you heal afterwards? I think that's a pretty good one. After you get beat up, what's a good. Do you have a little nugget for Healing not just for creatives, but for anyone in the world. When you read one of those comments you shouldn't have read, or someone kicked you while you're down.
Speaker C: I'm a big believer in therapy. I gotta just tell you that, like, I will never continue doing my work and not be in therapy because I need someone to bounce stuff off of, to talk about it. And I'm like a crazy therapist. I write about in the Gifts of Imperfection. Diana. I was her last client. She retired.
Speaker B: That's awesome.
Speaker C: But what I would go in is I would go in and I'd be like, those people, and I hate everybody. And I'm quitting. This is. And I would just. And she would just like, you know, a good therapist or good coach is a space holder. Is someone just holds space for you to figure out what. Because you know what you. I know what I need more than anyone else. I know what's going on more than anyone else. And so to me, having an objective person who has the skill set when you're putting your stuff out there for the first time, I think is huge. Huge. If you're not a seeker of therapy or coaching or something. Um, I would say to get. That's why creative circles tribes are the bomb.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker C: And I'm not saying the bomb. They're like the bomb. The B, A L, M M. The bomb. Yeah, I like bomb.
Speaker B: The creative community is like. They have been so helpful for me. Especially in that phase of your career when you don't know anybody, you can have a way to bounce ideas off people. And there's a little safety and a little but balm. Let's go with balm. B, A L, M. Um.
Speaker C: They're the balm to the wound. Like, they are the. We're gonna be there for each other. We're bringing our work back. We're gonna do open conversations. We're gonna meet every two weeks and talk about the hardest thing. We heard, the best thing. We heard why we wanna quit, why we'll never quit. Those vulnerable, honest conversations.
Speaker B: Um,
Speaker C: The most dangerous thing you can do is assume that any of us who you think have achieved something, you, me, a lot of people have done it at all. Alone.
Speaker B: Yeah, there's a. I don't know, one thing that was done alone.
Speaker C: I've done nothing alone. It's the biggest myth that people. People make up these great stories about who I am and my m. Work looks like and what my family looks like. But, um, I've done nothing alone.
Speaker B: Absolutely beautiful summary. You went to a cool Place, which is that place that you're going to take a little time off, but it's not time off from working. It's time away from all the noise.
Speaker C: I am.
Speaker B: Tell us about that. I'm fascinated. Steven Stefan Sagmeister, uh, uh, a designer I respect and admire. He works seven years and then takes an entire year off to think about work, process, write books, do projects that are self driven. Uh, instead of client driven, you're talking about checking out here. And it's like, we got you days before you're checking out.
Speaker C: April 14th.
Speaker B: Tell us about it.
Speaker C: Uh, which I just picked that day. Then I realized it was Passover. And then my next door neighbors are both rabbis. So we're going to go to Passover. And that's gonna be like the Passover
Speaker B: Seder is gonna be your.
Speaker C: My Passover Seder is gonna be my. Yeah. Um. Yeah. I'm scared.
Speaker E: Me too.
Speaker B: I don't want you to go away. We just became friends.
Speaker C: Yeah. No, yeah. I'm scared. Like, I. It's. I. Well, one thing people don't know about me is I'm extremely intensely introverted. Yeah. And so, um, So I can do this, but if this turned into a cocktail party, you would never be able to find me. Like, I've got my purse right here. I just, um. Like, I don't do. Or like, when people. It's hard too, because people call and say, we want you to speak at this event. And the night before, there's, you know, there's a thing. There's a thing, like, I don't do things. And I always did things and cried when I got back to the hotel room. I really did. I cry all the time. Um, and then. I can't believe. Halifax, who knows the Buddhist teacher Joan Halifax. Joan Halifax. I did an event with her at the Omega Center. She is like. She's like sitting next to God. I was like, wow. Um, because they were getting my makeup ready. She's like, I don't wear makeup. They're like, yes, ma' am with me. They're like, yeah. Then they said, we've got a reception. And then you're gonna speak. She goes, I don't do receptions.
Speaker A: Okay.
Speaker C: I was like, walking around the reception, 10, 9, 8, counting down. I had to be there for 30 minutes. Um, but she said, what I do is enough.
Speaker B: Wow. What I do is enough.
Speaker C: Uh, I contribute.
Speaker B: Hear that Internet?
Speaker C: Yeah. What I do is enough. And I'm going to give myself permission to both inhale and exhale. And so I'm not good at that. So I'm an introvert. So I can't be creative and write when I'm putting all your energy into. Yeah, when I'm not alone. Like, I'm really. Like, I'm happiest with my family. Professionally. I'm happiest alone with my data. Um, which sounds weird, but me and my data get it on. It's just that, just the two of us. Um, and I'm scared because I know how lucky I am about my work. And so my scarcity gremlins come up. Like, maybe there'll be nothing left when I come back, or maybe I will have squandered all this great opportunity saying, no, no, no, no. So, like, right now, I turn down. They give me a printout of the metrics on Excel. I turn down 97% of the speaking requests that I get because I have young kids and I have a life that I love at home. Um, and so. But then I'm like, what if I'm turning down everything? And I'm even gonna do an email, something. I don't know what it's gonna say yet. Uh, but it's gonna say something like, I might take a page from Dan Pink. Dan Pink is always like, I love Daniel Pink. I'm in the salt mines writing right now. Take care of it yourself. Or I don't know what he puts him. I don't know what he does. Gangster, throw down, thought leader, badass stuff. I'm gonna do something like that in my own voice. But, um, yeah, I'm scared. Cause I'm scared of, like. Yeah.
Speaker B: Will we be here for her when she gets back? I think so.
Speaker C: It's scary.
Speaker B: I wanna go to another place too. So you're doing these, uh, lovely courses with Oprah.
Speaker C: I am.
Speaker B: It's incredible. And I just got a, uh, basic message on my cheat sheet here, which says that, um, the course is about E or it's about journaling.
Speaker C: It's an art journal. E course.
Speaker B: An art journal course. And the registration has closed, but apparently I just got breaking now. Click here. Um, if you email brene browncourseprah.com they will extend the, uh, class for you. It's been closed for some time, but you can register until midnight on Friday. So you folks out there in the Internet world, if you want to take this class, you can register special, allowing you to get into the audience. You didn't even know that. I think your manager just sent this in.
Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, oh, really? Just close because we just started it last week. And so it's based on the Gifts of imperfection. And so the gifts of Imperfection includes 10 guideposts. What I found for wholehearted living from the research. And so part one was the first five guideposts, and now we're in part two. And a lot of people are taking part two who didn't take part one. But we are going, this is my new theory and this is one of the new things I'm working on with
Speaker B: my data into it.
Speaker C: You ready?
Speaker B: You and your data.
Speaker C: Yeah, I love your data. I love my data. Um, you know that problem, it's like the age old problem of I learned something and it's in my head, but I can't figure out how to live it, how to incorporate it into my life. Like, I understand it. I think creativity is the key of how things travel from the head to the heart to the hands.
Speaker B: Creativity is the way. Yeah, well, let's cheer for that one.
Speaker C: That was a pretty good question.
Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think creativity is the way things travel from. From the head to the heart to the hand.
Speaker C: So let me give you an example. So, like, the first guidepost we're doing, because we're doing guideposts six through ten. Um, and so the first guidepost is cultivating creativity and letting go of comparison.
Speaker B: I think this might be a worthwhile course. Something tells me, well, register for me for this thing, please.
Speaker C: Now, it changed me because one of the things I didn't want to do with the gifts is I wanted to say, you know, you know, fast catch up. Two groups of people in my research, men and women who have a deep sense of love and belonging and people who really struggle for it. The only difference between the people who had a deep sense of love and belonging and the people who struggle for it is the people who have it believe they're worthy of it.
Speaker B: That's the only difference.
Speaker C: That's it. This pissed me off because I'm like, what does that mean? That they're okay? So, so, like, is it a moment in time where I'm like, I am worthy of it? Like, no, no, no. But as it turns out, there are specific behaviors these people engage in. So one of the things that they. So These are the 10 guideposts. And one of them was every single person who I interviewed. You'll love this. Um, who I would consider wholehearted men and women living and loving with their whole lives, every single one of them engaged in some kind of creative endeavor.
Speaker B: That's awesome.
Speaker C: So I thought going into this research that Creativity. Like, I was one of those people. Like, I'm not really creative.
Speaker B: Um, now you know better.
Speaker C: Well, now I know that there's no such thing.
Speaker B: There's absolutely no such thing.
Speaker C: There's just people who use their creativity and people who don't. And that does not go without penalty. As it turns out, unused creativity is not benign. It's dangerous. It metastasizes.
Speaker B: Unused creativity is dangerous?
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker C: It turns into grief and judgment and rage. It poison. And I was a person. Like, I completely remember a really good friend of mine said, hey, do you want to take a scrapbooking class? Which I love photographs, and I take pictures and I love memory making. And I was like, that's cute. And you go do your art. I got a J, O. B. Like, I totally made fun of.
Speaker B: That's called shaming, by the way. Gotta go.
Speaker C: When I say it, I shame.
Speaker B: I'm gonna wait till we're not in this public place and I'll have a conversation with you about it.
Speaker C: If anyone here is a coach and would like to stay to moderate that. Yeah, no, I, uh, shamed her. So, look, my un. I mean, I've told this story 10 times in my life. Maybe not very many. You're the first person who's ever named that.
Speaker B: I'm reading. I'm reading Daring Greatly by Brene Brown.
Speaker C: But look what just happened. Look at me. I shamed somebody for asking me to go do something artful with them. Unused creativity is dangerous. It changes into things.
Speaker B: Super powerful.
Speaker C: Right? So now. So this is an example. I'll give it away, but. So one of the things we're doing in the art E course is we're taking each of these guideposts and we are doing art exercises around them. So one of the things we have to do is we have to, um, use crayons to do a self portrait of ourselves in our journal.
Speaker B: Guess what?
Speaker C: What?
Speaker B: We have yours queued up. Yes, we do. Let's bring up Brene's. I like the necklace.
Speaker D: Thank you.
Speaker C: Thank you. Yeah, I always wear lots of necklaces. Um, and it's really funny because there is nothing that will bring grown people to their tears like a box of crayons. Like when I take leaders sometimes through a day long daring way leadership. We have crayons and people will walk in and immediately, like, They have such a reaction. Just even the smell of them is and why. And this leads to our next exercise. So one of the exercises we're doing is we're talking about art wounds. 80. Follow me on this okay. You ready?
Speaker B: I'm good.
Speaker C: 85% of the men and women I've interviewed over 13 years remember something so shaming that happened in school that it changed how they thought of themselves as learners.
Speaker B: Wow.
Speaker C: Wait, it gets worse. 50% of those wounds were around art and creativity.
Speaker B: That is what is wrong with our culture.
Speaker C: That is what's wrong with our culture.
Speaker B: Uh, we gotta fix that.
Speaker C: I mean, how many of you. I mean, honestly, how many of you remember something so shaming that happened in school that it changed how you thought of yourself about something?
Speaker B: That's a show of hands right there, right? I think that's pretty much everybody.
Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, it's. Yeah. And so what we're doing is we're writing down all of the messages on our little journals that we have for the class, which you can get anywhere. Um, and then we're covering them with band aids and writing the truth on the outside. On the band aids.
Speaker B: Can I tell a little vulnerable story?
Speaker C: Yeah, please.
Speaker B: My mom's in the audience right there. Do you remember that clay pot that I made in ceramics as a sophomore?
Speaker E: Which one?
Speaker B: Which one? The one that was so bad it was laughable.
Speaker C: Was this the slug tray?
Speaker B: Yeah, there was this bunch of slugs crawling around in the tray. It was so bad. And I remember knowing it wasn't good, but putting it out there, and it got totally torn to pieces. I was the captain of the football team, and I had it going on, and I put the. That out there. This is in an art context, for example, and it was not good, but I was putting it out there. And I. Like, that is a scar for me, for sure. I had to work through that.
Speaker C: I mean. Yeah, it really makes me want to cry because I've got a daughter who's a freshman in high school and who went in to middle school thinking, I'm going to be an artist. And then the only people who got to go into advanced art were people who could do still lifes, you know, and they're like, you're not really. You're not destined for a career in creativity, is what they told her. She's 12, you know, and now she's at a school where she's in art and she loves it and she's back, but we had to heal that. That happens every day. Stop grading art in school.
Speaker B: When I, you know. Yeah. Stop grading art in school.
Speaker C: Yeah.
Speaker B: We both have our. You have your Oprah thing. I have creative live. Trying to make the world a more creative place. Um, I gave a keynote at a mutual Friend of ours, Chris Gillebeau, um, called the World Domination Summit, which if you don't know it, it's an amazing conference. Chris is a great guy. I got to keynote that last year. And part of my talk was about basically that same. The way that schools systematically grind out creativity. And part of CreativeLives mission is completely reinventing that and that schools that are doing that are not actually serving our public interest. And I surveyed a bunch of people in the front 10 rows. It was a 3,000 person auditorium. What was the age where you first started or actually the age that you have really fond memories of making something. And it was 8, 6, 4, 10, 11, 9, 6, 8, 8. And we're talking a hall of incredibly creative, accomplished people. And the last time they remember making something that was fun, that didn't have a lot of drama around it, they were almost all single digit age groups. And I've done this with audiences all over the world now and it's consistent, it's powerful. That's so terrible. Where is the scars come? Yeah, it should be. I made this yesterday.
Speaker C: Right.
Speaker B: As opposed to, you know, that should be the thing that's there.
Speaker D: That.
Speaker B: Anyway, no, ah.
Speaker C: I mean we can't talk about it enough. It's like that's a hugely powerful. Like I write in the Gifts of Imperfection fifth grade, last time I remember really doing something. Now my data, that's why I love having fun with my data. Because we get our creativity on. But you know, but it's a real serious issue because it's not how that changes how that. When you said that's what's wrong with culture today, you weren't kidding. Because how that translates itself is in Washington D.C. in boardrooms where people are making huge decisions that affect all of our lives, but are afraid to put themselves out there in a creative, innovative way because of uh, that thing they turned in in third grade. That stuff does not go away that informs who we are unless we deal with.
Speaker B: Absolutely. And let's not talk like creativity is this thing. Art is but a subset of creativity. So painting, drawing, making music, all that stuff that is classically all creativity. But creativity is this whole sphere. It's innovation, it's E equals MC squared. You think of it as very scientific. That is theoretical science and creativity coming together. The invention of the wheel, that's mechanical engineering plus creativity equals the wheel. So creativity literally is the thing that Wilson. All of human problems from here forward. Creativity is the fundamental building block. So if we're stamping out. Yeah, you think about that. Someone's going, like, in the third row right there. You think about that. Think about it that way. And we're systematically stamping that out in third, fourth, fifth grade. That is having a huge deleterious effect on our culture. So I hope that you folks will go out there in the world and do justice to bringing creativity to a new elevation. The way I talk about it is creativity is the new literacy. And in the same way that the invention of the printing press went from the dark ages literally to the period of enlightenment through prioritizing literacy and what it meant for humanity, the same can be true for creativity. If we go from a period which has been the dark ages, and we empower the world to be creative, that what is possible. Because we're still. I mean, we're on the cusp of it. The democratization of creativity. Tools that were very expensive right now, very cheap. We don't require. There's no gatekeepers. We can share our work at scale. The time is upon us. So let's put that forward as an agenda. That's my personal goal. I'm not. Sorry, soapboxing. This is your show.
Speaker C: Um, no, I'm with you 100%. All right, take that. No. So wait, I want to stop. Because it's so important what you're saying. So if creativity is the new literacy, and it's how we're going to solve every problem in front of us, from, you know, malaria to poverty, every violence, there is no creativity without vulnerability. There is no creativity without that process of. This is awesome. I'm going to do this. I'm so excited. Oh, my God. This sucks. Oh, my God. Who do I think I am? This is. Oh, this is not so. Okay. That's part of the creative process, which is vulnerable. Right?
Speaker B: Can we be a one, two punch?
Speaker C: Oh, my God, yes. I love it.
Speaker B: Um, well, the questions are still pouring in. Kristen, uh, Crawford, via Facebook, says, how do you balance being vulnerable with maintaining boundaries? What's your shortest answer for that one? Because that's a doozy. But we only got, like, nine minutes left.
Speaker C: We share with people who've earned the right to hear our story.
Speaker B: Paw. Take that.
Speaker C: You've got all kinds of. I want some karate.
Speaker A: I love it.
Speaker B: Let's go to the in studio audience. Anybody got some questions for Brene? We got a hand up here. We need a microphone. Yes, good sir, stand up. Tell us who you are, and feel free to ask Brene any question you'd like.
Speaker E: I'm Jim Henderson. Uh, you made a couple comments about, uh, your Faith, uh, shaping how you're thinking. And you mentioned a couple rabbis and you said you're leaving us on the 14th. So I thought we'd better get these questions in because there's two rabbis that I think of. One is named Edwin Friedman, and I see resonance in the things you're saying with him. And the other is Jesus. I'd like to know how those two rabbis influence your thinking, how it shapes what you're doing now.
Speaker C: That's a hard question. Well, I don't know the first Rabbi. I'm a member of the Episcopal Church. Um, so I don't. How does Jesus shape, um, he's got your back. I don't know what, um, you know what? I'll talk about how I see Jesus and how I see a lot of the other, I think spiritual leaders that I look to. Um, I am a proponent of a gritty, dangerous, wild eyed kind of love. Um, a. I don't want to live in a don't ask, don't tell world. I want to live in a show up and be loved world. Um, and so the people who inform, I think me spiritually and kind of call on me to be courageous are people who say. That kind of wild, gritty love that I think is important is not easy, it's not popular, you're going to piss people off, um, but you do it anyway. And so that's kind of how I guess spiritual teaching informs me.
Speaker B: I love it. Next question. Anything else? You want to go ahead? We got to keep moving because I know these people have come from far and wide to speak with you, and I wanted to be able to give that an opportunity. Say who you are and what's your question?
Speaker D: Hi, my name is Stacy.
Speaker C: Hi.
Speaker D: Uh, Stacey and I had all these, what were probably appropriate questions, and I just decided to give that up. So last week I'm out there trying to do very bold work. I admire you for that, of bringing emotion and things into the workplace. And last week I had a call where I felt completely shut down by somebody for my own capability, my m. Own experience. So I guess I wonder you were sort of thrust into the spotlight and how do you keep confidence and courage in what you know to be true about yourself and what you know you're capable of when you're pretty consistently denied that. I mean, you've got the wind at your sail at, uh, your back right now, but for many of us, we're still striving to, you know, get a little wind up. How do you handle those moments? It felt I Got angry for the first time, which was great. Um, but I wonder how you handle those moments where people don't respect what you're able to bring. Because it was a very vulnerable moment for me.
Speaker C: I think this is also the benefit of having some success behind me. I don't need everybody to respect it anymore or need it or sign on to it anymore.
Speaker B: Um,
Speaker C: I go back to my list a lot, but I think one of the things that I used to do a lot is I used to hustle a lot and wrap my words around language that would make people more comfortable and make it more palatable for people in the beginning. And I just don't do that anymore. I think there's a lot of people who are some on similar paths, and if they can't hear what I'm saying, maybe they can hear what someone else is saying. And so from now on, uh, I used to fight when people would call, like, for a conference. I'd have a conference call before a big event, and I'd be talking to bankers. They're like, well, why should we have you? And what relevance does this have for us? I'm like. And I used to say, well, I can do this and this and this. And I'm like, look, you called me. You called me, and I'm not hustling here for my worthiness with you. Here's what I do. Here's what I'm gonna talk about if I'm gonna be there, and this is either a good fit or not. I think my new thing is, if it's not a good fit, then I don't wanna be there anymore. And I'm not gonna try to win over. It's Scott Stratton. Quote, don't win over the haters. You're not the jackass whisperer. Uh, I just don't try anymore because there's enough people who want to have the conversation that I can't spend my energy. Emotional strength in those areas as much anymore. And there's plenty of them.
Speaker B: Yeah, great advice. I'll tack on for the photographers out there, people that are trying to make their living through making stuff. Um, you actually don't need a million people to like your work. You need a very small subset. As an example, If I get 18 jobs a year, it's a banner year. It's great. And I've just set up the economics. That way you don't have to, but you certainly don't need 10 million. You might need 1,000. You might need 100 people to like your work. So Trying to convince everyone to like your work is a game that you cannot possibly win.
Speaker C: Oh, my God. That's so powerful. Say that again.
Speaker B: Sorry, I don't even remember.
Speaker C: I don't remember. Say it again. It's so true.
Speaker B: You don't need a million people to like your work. You don't need 1,000. You don't even probably need 100. You're making your work for you, and there are people in the world who will love you and your work for what it is right now.
Speaker C: God, that's so true.
Speaker B: I think we recorded it. We gotta wind down. I will take one more question if it can take 20 seconds or less, because I gotta get her out of here and onto her next thing.
Speaker A: Robert Ricciadeli. Uh, there's a book Carol Dweck put out on mindset.
Speaker C: Love it.
Speaker A: And growth, uh, mindset versus fixed. I don't think you can have a
Speaker B: growth mindset unless you're vulnerable.
Speaker E: And I'd like to speak to that.
Speaker C: Okay, So I love Carol Dweck. Um, I love her book mindset. I think she and I do similar work. She comes at it cognitively from how we think. I come at it from how we feel, um, and behave. But that whole idea of, you know, it's that test where they gave a bunch of kids a test, and half the kids, they said, oh, my God, you got this great grade. You got an A. You're wonderful. The other group, they said, you worked so hard on it. Congratulations. Your effort was amazing. They praised effort over achievement. Then they said, we've got an even harder test. Who wants to take the next test? Oh, only the kids praised for effort, not achievement were willing to even try more because these kids had so much to lose. So that's like that growth mindset that we just keep growing instead of. I failed. It's like staying open, and it totally requires vulnerability. So mindsets has been an important workbook in my family life and my work, my parenting. So absolutely.
Speaker B: Thank you for helping this show grow.
Speaker C: Thank you for having me.
Speaker B: I appreciate it. Ladies and gentlemen, this book here, made by this amazing human, Brene Brown.
Speaker A: All right.
Speaker B: Hey, before you go, thanks so much for listening.
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Speaker B: In the particular lies the universal.
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Speaker B: either on social media or through my
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Speaker A: All right, that's a wrap.
Speaker B: Let's put today's episode into practice and get back to growing together.
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