Piedmont Healthcare’s Marketing Strategy for Building Trust

Speaker A: There's probably not a more polarizing shift to go from I'm selling toilet paper, paper plates, and marketing those things to healthcare. Um, and I share this story sometimes. It's like in November of that year, I was talking about your next promotion at Walmart. We're talking about toilet paper. And then I made the move. And in December, I was getting a question about can we build an app for our heart transplant program? Um, because we need more heart transplant.

Speaker B: Interesting.

Speaker A: And you're like, interesting. That's different. Marketing matters.

Speaker B: Marketing is absolutely critical. You can have the greatest product in the world. If no one knows about it, it just doesn't matter.

Speaker C: People think out of the box. It's gonna make you more creative. But sometimes when you're in a constrained situation, that's when a lot of creativity blooms.

Speaker B: Barbara, you use Uber Eats, don't you?

Speaker C: My husband does. I don't believe in the Internet.

Speaker B: I didn't know that the Internet was faith based.

Speaker C: I'll tell you, you could just buy the car we bought. We have a hybrid. I don't know what's up.

Speaker B: The power of brands. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Marketing Matters

Speaker A: on the Wharton Podcast Network.

Speaker C: Hello and welcome. You're listening to Marketing Matters on the Wharton Podcast Network, our weekly podcast where we analyze the latest in advertising, marketing, customer behavior and new product launches. I'm Barbara Kahn, The Patty and J.H. baker professor of marketing, and I'm joined by my co host, Americus Reed, the Whitney M. Young Jr. Professor of Marketing and the brand identity theorist. And today we have a very interesting show. We're joined by Kate Metzinger, who's the vice president of marketing and physician outreach at, uh, Piedmont Healthcare, which is a large, private, not for profit health care system based in Georgia. Now Kate has been at, ah, Piedmont Healthcare for about four years, as I understand it. But she came from Georgia Pacific, which is a CPG firm best known for brands that you'd find in your home like Brawny, Angel, Soft and Dixie. And she was at, uh, Georgia Pacific for almost 10 years. Now she's moving or has moved from CPG to health care. And at Piedmont, she just instituted a new brand campaign which is called Quality Care Changes Lives. And the idea is to try to take this health care clinical excellence and turn it into clear, human centered storytelling. So in this conversation, we're going to explore how an expert in CPG marketing can exist and thrive in a trust driven healthcare environment. Kate, welcome to our show.

Speaker A: Welcome, Kate. Thank you so much for having me, you guys. I'm excited to have the conversation.

Speaker C: So before we get into all of this and the new campaign and all, what made you go from CPT to healthcare? Like, why did you make that move?

Speaker A: Sure. I think from a, uh, from my perspective, it was really a learning journey. I had a great experience at Georgia Pacific. To your point, I was there almost 10 years. I was on the agency side before that for 10 years, also working in retail and a little bit in cpg. Um, and so I was just thinking about what's next in my career and what's the learning journey going to be so I can continue to grow my skillset. Um, so I had started poking around about nonprofits or, um, just different avenues beyond your traditional CPG company.

Speaker B: And.

Speaker A: And at the time, my mentor and good friend Dal AH Bergsma was at Piedmont already. And, um, he knew what I was looking for in terms of, you know, the next step in advancement, um, and really thinking about nonprofits and said, you know, not exactly what you were thinking, but close. It's a not for profit. It's healthcare, and I have this opportunity. Would you be willing to consider it? And so we had several conversations, um, and said, you know, if you had gone to Kimberly Clark or some other cpg, I wouldn't have followed you. But this is hitting all the right notes. It's one of those lucky strike moments where you have a great mentor and huge advocate and that it has the right opportunity and everything just aligned, um, in the cards for me to come over and try healthier.

Speaker C: So you're looking for the challenge. So before we get into the specific campaign, it's easy to make that transition, I mean, from consumer focused marketing to patient driven marketing. Is it the same thing? One's just sick. Is that like, what it is or.

Speaker A: That's a great. I get that question a lot. It's very funny because also, remember this happened during COVID So it was 2021. We were in the height of COVID and toilet paper was obviously having a very big moment at that point on one side of the COVID equation. And healthcare was having a different moment. Um, so that was a wild time to make that anyway. Um, but what I would say is there's probably not a more polarizing shift to go from I'm selling toilet paper, paper plates and marketing those things to healthcare. And I share the story. Sometimes it's like in November of that, I was talking about your next promotion at Walmart, and we're talking about toilet paper. And then I made the move. And in December, I was getting a question about can we build an app for our heart transplant program? Um, because we need more heart transplant.

Speaker B: Interesting.

Speaker A: And you're like, interesting. That's different. And so there's this moment where you. That's a little. Just a little different.

Speaker B: There's an app for that.

Speaker A: Yeah, that was a different part of that. Funny story. Um, but, yeah, there was. There's a moment where you have that kind of imposter syndrome mentality where you're like, oh, I'm across from these world renowned heart doctors, or I'm across from, you know, a world renowned oncologist. But at the end of the day, you know, your training kicks in and it holds up. And to answer your question, you know, Barbara, it all still applies. It comes back to the basics. And the marketing basics is, what's my objective? Who am I talking to? Who's my target? What's the brand? How are we activating? So it all holds up. And once you can kind of get your head past that kind of odd moment, um, it absolutely translates. And your experience comes, um, together.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love that point. I want to build on what Barbara's saying as well and ask you a question, Kate, and that is this. When I have interacted with nonprofits in the past, one of the things that I've noticed is that there's a challenge sometimes because they almost don't want to see themselves as businesses. And it's sort of like, it's not that you're. It's not that it's. It's less that you're not for profit and more that you are for purpose, but yet you have to also bring, like, discipline to this as well. In terms of what. Exactly what you said. So when you made that transition into a nonprofit, talk a little bit about the way that the culture was sort of structured around the discipline of being a business, but also maintaining this kind of notion of that purpose and being obviously, to Barbara's point, patient centered and is sort of the key pillar here. Was that, like, was that a challenge? Was it already in place? What. What did you experience when you first joined?

Speaker A: So I think it is. Was in place. Is in place. So we have great leadership, um, who runs an incredible business from a not for profit perspective. We are very metrics oriented. We have our balanced scorecard that helps drive all of our decisions. So I would say Piedmont is probably one of the most business minded, not for profits that you'll find you, um, do often have, you know, people in the organization who are like, oh, no, we're about helping people. We're not about business. So you do talk a lot about if we are good business people and if we do the right things from a financial perspective, from a stewardship perspective, um, and, you know, kind of be good, again, be good stewards of our community investment that allows us to help more people. And so you kind of, you connect those dots of, um, how it all comes together. It's not that we're, you know, hungrily trying to drive, you know, office visits or that type of thing for, you know, gains or fun. It's about when we do that and we do our business well, we able, you know, we're able to help more people. You know, Pima, from a community impact perspective, gives away about $844 million in community benefit, um, last year. So when we do good business, we're able to produce good results for our community.

Speaker C: So let me double down on that parallel that you're mentioning about. It is a business in a way, and you do run it that way, even though it's nonprofit and obviously your heart transplants and not toilet paper. You know, so, like, there is that difference, but, like, there is. Like, I saw some interviews with people, you know, probably your old mentor actually, um, and he was really kind of making almost an apples to apples, um, change. Like, so you mentioned it, your demand variable is office visits or how many appointments and things like that. And the belief is that if you do a good brand campaign and you build brand awareness and positive customer experience and positive favorability, which are all marketing terms, that you will generate more office visits, better use of your digital tools and all these other things, which are the same kinds of metrics that you measured before at your old job. But yes, but it's delivering a different end product. And like America's saying you have maybe different values, but the measurement is pretty similar, right?

Speaker A: Absolutely. There's huge parallels to be drawn in terms of financial or financial industries, in terms of account openings or airlines, in terms of selling seats. Right. Um, so you get foot traffic, you get measure, you know, metrics like that. So there are 100% parallels. And we have the benefit of knowing when we drive office visits, that means someone's getting the care that they hopefully need. Um, and we're able to have them have a great experience because of other things we've put in place. So you're looking at the full funnel of support.

Speaker C: So what we're here for, like, the new news here, is, um, this new campaign. And so now. So you believe that if you build a good brand, people, um, will Come, you know, like, kind of. Which is the same thing as. But what I think is super interesting, and it's what your campaign is about and what you had to figure out. And you've certainly been at Piedmont long enough, four years to kind of have a good sense of that. Um, you have to do human storytelling. But what does that mean in this world? And in some sense, I would guess this is a little bit different than selling toilet paper, because the advertising campaign is going to be different. Right. Or the storytelling is different.

Speaker B: Yeah. And let me just build on Barbara's question, too, layer on this, which is the idea, when I think of healthcare, I try to conceptualize it, Barbara, where it's like, what is this thing? What is this credence?

Speaker C: Good.

Speaker B: I'm going to go get a service, and I can't really judge its quality until after the service is over. And so I may show up with, uh, in my mind, a perception of health care that is either completely neutral or maybe even negative because of what I may believe about the health care system more broadly speaking in this country. So I'm wondering, to build on Barbara's point, do you have to overcome, like, negative perceptions of what people expect in this space before you can actually begin the storytelling process in an authentic way? Or do you have to kind of clean up the mess on aisle five, so to speak? Because, you know, what consumers may be. What may. I'm sorry to use the toilet paper example, but because of what consumers may be walking around with in their minds, you know, and sort of the fact that you're trying to create something, but you can't really put your hands on this thing until you can get some sort of idea what, to Barbara's point, what the brand stands for. What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker A: Right, absolutely. So I think that there's a few things there. I mean, one, when you go back to the beginning of our campaign or what prompted this, we had been going through a rebrand for about five years, um, and started back in 2021, trying to set Piedmont apart from your traditional health care marketing. You know, from. From that perspective, we. Everybody knew Piedmont. We had high awareness. We have, you know, the highest awareness in the market when you think about the state of Georgia. But nobody necessarily had a good perception of what Piedmont was. You know, it was kind of, you know, neutral, possibly a little bit negative when you think about, um, who we are and what we stand for. And so people didn't realize in their backyard is a company and a, you know, a healthcare business that is a top 10 transplant program. It, you know, sees 50, you know, heart patients from all 50 states. Um, we actually pull from, because our heart program is that good, or we see, you know, diagnose 14,000 cancer patients every year. And so people just didn't really know.

Speaker C: You had messaging, you had real points.

Speaker A: So there's real points. But here's, I guess the comment I'm going to make about that is some of the traditional marketing perspectives might say, go tell people all those data points and just go like, we are breadth, we're scale, we're this. Um, and I think you go back to that kind of Maya Angelou quote of, uh, people will remember not what you did, but how you made them feel. And so you think about how we would set ourselves apart is communicating how we made our patients actually feel. And being able to tell some of those stories is going to resonate more with somebody than throwing out top 10 transplant program. Because that might not matter to them until they need a transplant or they may not know. Is 14,000 cancer patients a lot? It is. But as a patient, you might not have a lot of frame of reference for that, but you can relate to someone's story about what their journey is.

Speaker C: No, we call that identifiable victim. Yeah, there's a lot of research that supports what you're saying, that consumers definitely respond to the one single individual and that person's story more than they would, uh, to the statistics that you're saying or the data points. But I am curious when you start. So the idea is to tell people stories and how they feel as a result of some of these. But did you decide to focus on the heart transplant stories or could you focus on something that. Were you making the decision to choose the stories to tell that really differentiate the strength of Piedmont, or were you just telling stories that could come every day in the healthcare system?

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great question. So for our broader campaign, our higher order messaging, um, the video, the social ads that we're doing is really around our, um, highest volume service lines or some of the places where we have expert and leading care. So you'll see, um, we started actually with a brain tumor, A brain tumor spot. We included a heart transplant spot. We have an ortho spot. So we really did align it to the larger service lines and where we provide that level and highest level of expertise. Um, and then we also sprinkle in some of the everyday stories we get in some of the lower fidelity, um, work we're doing on social or in some of the various PR places We're able to move quickly, but it's less of a high production event.

Speaker C: So you're talking to real patients. Right. And then you're going to ask them to tell their story. That. So how'd that go? Like, um, you know, I mean, we're not taught yet.

Speaker B: Barbara always asks very pointed questions. Kate, if you haven't.

Speaker C: No, I'm just curious.

Speaker B: How'd that go?

Speaker C: Not clear to me that I would be so great in front of a camera.

Speaker B: Fair. That's fair.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Maybe authenticity works. I don't know. Like, uh.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, I think, I mean, I think it definitely adds to it. We have real patients and real providers in our spots. Like, these are not paid actors. They are. And while you may be a world renowned expert surgeon, you may not translate that well on camera. And that's just a reality that we, you know, that we work through. Um, so we do a lot of coaching, you know, in the moment. Um, I think we have worked with agency partners who help us get the best, you know, out of people and make them feel really comfortable in that moment so that they can share their story. Um, we've been very fortunate, I think, that it's gone, you know, we've been able to, you know, pull that out of people, um, in a way that resonates with others and is authentic. It is meaningful.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love that Barbara's thing. When Barbara said that, I immediately, I immediately thought of a bunch of ads that I have seen with people, you know, uh, patients talking about, you know, their reaction to the service. And I remember thinking to myself, that's fake. It's too polished, it's too good. It's just, you know what I mean? And you just kind of discount it. So to Barbara's point, like, dude, that fine line between authenticity, but also engaging and captivating, because if you have someone there that's not captivating, then you're sort of defeating the storytelling point in the first place. So, you know, talk a little bit about the carefulness by which you thread that needle that Barbara's talking about.

Speaker A: Yeah, so I think we, we don't try and over produce or over correct things so that you can, you can tell at times that it really is them. So I'll give you a very specific example. In our ortho spot, we actually worked by the Marius Mims, who is, you know, former UGA player. Um, he is now in the NFL and he was able, you know, he came, had surgery with one of our providers to repair his ankle. And, um, he is a giant man because he's in the NFL. So he actually bumped the boom mic, um, where. When he surprised the doctor, who is also a tall man, but looks small in comparison, um, he was going to hug the doctor. He bumps a boom mic and there's this awkward moment, but we left it in because it made it real and not like we were so careful. So we look for those little moments. We also let them write. You know, we have the patients write their own letter, and we'll of course, help refine and edit where needed. But the words are really theirs. And I think that's so important to the story, um, and letting them share their gratitude and their experience at Piedmont.

Speaker C: So you just started this campaign. Have you been able to measure its success yet, or do you have a sense of how well it's going?

Speaker A: Yes, so I do. So it's actually been in market for about 18 months. Um, we are exceeding all of our benchmarks when you look at brand preference and favorability that we've been looking at. So, um, we're absolutely achieving our goals. Uh, our Year one campaign, one already. So felt pretty good about that, uh, for the team and being.

Speaker B: Hold on, Kate, you gotta. You have to break this down for our listeners. Wanna. Reggie? Did you say Reggie? Okay, tell us about that award. What is that?

Speaker A: The Reggie Awards are through the A and A, and it's about marketing effectiveness. So a, uh, Reggie Award, you go through every year. The American National. Sorry, association of National Advertisers, um, does awards to say, what's the, you know, the greatest work out there? Um, and the Regis, you know, show effectiveness. And that's what they're all about. So I was thrilled to win, um, for that.

Speaker C: Oh, well,

Speaker A: you don't want to do work for work's sake. You want effectiveness.

Speaker B: Yeah, I've never won a Reggie Award, but I want one.

Speaker A: It's really great. It's like the cash register. It's pretty funny. That's awesome.

Speaker C: Well, of course, it's one thing winning awards for advertising. It's another thing driving those patient visits. And has that worked?

Speaker A: Absolutely. Uh, yes. So we, you know, we're seeing really strong ROIs for our efforts. Again, when you think about dividing out our campaigns and as people think about campaigns, one is maybe about driving the brand, others are about driving office visits. Um, but the things work together very nicely right now. We're seeing great ROIs for all of our efforts, so we're headed in the right direction.

Speaker C: So, you know, in healthcare, um, there's, like, it is a different world than the toilet paper world or the paper towel world. In that, you know, I assume there's like a board of trustees or something. There's people who like, oversee hospitals and there are a lot of doctors and, um, you know, and all those kind of people. And they're not always so pro marketing. I mean, was there, did you have any kind of culture change to have to make the idea of hospitals? And this is kind of what Americus was talking about in the beginning. There's kind of a different set of norms for health care. It almost seems, I think that's what your point was originally Americans. It almost seems like when you're doing healthcare, you shouldn't be using traditional marketing. Even though the mapping does work and it does make sense. Did you have some kind of pushback? Was there something that, like, you had to educate people that marketing are the good guys?

Speaker B: Yes. Or to put it indifferently. How'd that go?

Speaker A: How'd that go? Um, you know, it's a good question. Uh, I would say kind of coming in. I was so used to CPG world, where marketing is a huge driver, right. Of everything we do. Uh, I remember my first kind of few weeks, someone's like, oh, you're marketing. I'll call you when I need a billboard. I was like, oh, I would prefer you call me when you want to talk about your business objectives. You know, I was like, let's talk business objectives and then we'll talk about tactics. Um, but I think, you know, they've been incredibly receptive to what are we, what are we trying to achieve and how we can demonstrate that marketing is a driver for growth. Um, and so thinking about how you engage with different stakeholders on that journey is so critical because you, you know, not everybody is in the same boat, right? Not everyone believes that marketing is a driver for growth. Um, so how do you show that for some of our physician or leadership, you know, they are, they're healthcare folks, so they understand science. So being able to go towards building frameworks, leveraging some of our science based approaches in people like Byron Sharp, Les Binet, Mark Ritson, a lot of the big names that you hear in some of the science and evidence based marketing approaches, we were able to really bring them on board, show them, tell them what we think is true, and then prove it to them through our own data, um, in our own efforts. So it's been a journey, but I think been very receptive the whole way.

Speaker C: Byron Sharp, I know him from Ehrenberg Bass. He's the, uh, big player in cpg world.

Speaker B: Uh, Mark Ritson as well. Like, these are pretty big names, and

Speaker C: that's, like, a big idea. The double jeopardy effect. Penetration and frequency. Um, and it is interesting to think about that kind of model in healthcare also, because it's.

Speaker A: It's.

Speaker C: Yeah, it should hold, but it is kind of a different way of thinking about the world.

Speaker B: Yes. And I. Just. To build on Barbara's point, I do want to check in with Barbara and I. We do that. We do the, uh. We do, like, a pulse check on our leaders, and we ask them. We have to ask the AI question. So what's your point? What is Piedmont's point of view on bringing artificial intelligence and these kinds of tools inside the building to help with efficiency, to help. How does it augment. How does it. How does it make the patient engagement experience better, if at all? How are you using it, and what's your point of view more generally?

Speaker A: Oh, I love the way you asked that question. Um, so one is. I would say we are absolutely proponents of using AI, especially if and where it can help our patient experience or our provider experience. So obviously, we're very careful with things that come into our technology environment so that we're appropriately protecting our patient data, that we're not exposing undue risk. You know, healthcare is one of the highest targeted industries for bad actors, um, and malware and ransomware and things like that. So we're very careful with what we bring in. But there's amazing opportunities to improve the patient experience through AI so one example is using some of the ambient listening tools, um, when you're in that moment of care. So providers are able to, you know, get patient consent, turn on the ambient listening so that I can have a conversation with you, look you in the eye, discuss your symptoms, and not be, you know, neck deep in your emr, your electronic medical record. Charting. Um, yes.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: So great use.

Speaker B: That's a fantastic use.

Speaker A: This human. Human element allows them to be in the moment, and it also reduces and improves the provider experience of the amount of time they spend charting at night or, you know, whatever. So when you think about, um, is it better for the provider? Is it better for the patient? That's something that we should do from our perspective.

Speaker C: That was a point on the pit.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: There you go, ladies and gentlemen, we're about to have a pop culture moment here. Hold on, hold on. Let's make space.

Speaker C: It can make charting much, much faster. Is a really big plot point in the pit. Do you watch the show, Kate?

Speaker A: Yeah. No. Yeah. No. Lyla's Crushing it for us all. He's like, you're pointing those. We can avoid physician burnout by implementing AI. Um, so it's a good one. Excellent. But, yeah, I think from a marketing perspective, we see a ton of opportunities, um, from marketing and digital patient experience for us to continue that journey as well. Um, we are waiting in line for some things where we still need clearance and that type of thing. But when you think about how fast we've grown in terms of the number of locations we have versus the, our resources haven't necessarily grown at the same rate. It allows us to do more with less or do more with the same, I guess I should say, um, and be able to help more people.

Speaker C: So, uh, we're almost out of time. But along these lines, it's related to AI in a way. Is the other thing that people use in conjunction with AI frequently is customer analytics, customer data. And you've alluded to that before. But that's another thing that's really different in healthcare because there's all these privacy rules, regulation rules, what you can say, what you can't say. You got to get your lawyers to look at everything. I mean, has that. Has that been something that's been difficult bumping your head against, or have you figured out how to navigate that?

Speaker A: Uh, if there's someone who's figured out 100% how to navigate it, I would love to hear from them. Please feel free to email me and reach out. Yeah, it's a work in progress, I would say. First, we will always protect the patient data and our compliance above all else. Um, so we are still working them through what that looks like and what data we should use, what we can use, um, on any given execution. Um, but I think getting to the right data sets, even if it's at a more macro level that can inform versus a PII level that can inform our strategy going forward, um, will be greatly enabled by AI. So I think we're all hoping to get to the right place with that.

Speaker B: I love that. So, Kate, I'll share with you that Barbara's doing some work on the patient experience and some research that she's working on standing up right now. So I want to, I want to sort of ask a question, uh, that might help Barbara's research or at least provide some hypotheses. Let us put you into the time capsule and have you take a look at the healthcare space. Three years, five years, seven years down the line. What are some of the big things that, based on the stuff you've seen at Piedmont, that you're paying attention to trends, uh, things that may not be obvious from reading the tea leaves. What are your thoughts on some things that we should be paying attention to?

Speaker A: Oh, uh, that's an interesting, uh, that's an interesting and tricky question. I think probably one is how and what role some of the technology, uh, companies will play. Going even further into the patient experience and being able to leverage AI to better deliver that patient experience and, um, more seamlessly connect patients to the care they need. Uh, when you think about kind of one of the bigger macro trends, there's a very large shortage coming from a provider perspective. So, you know, less people, less providers, um, available to, um, help care for everybody. Georgia has a, you know, has. I will not. Let me not put a number because I'll say it wrong. Um, but there is a large shortage of physicians that's anticipated across specialty use. So when you think about what are different care delivery models. Yeah, what are care delivery models that can be enabled, um, either through technology, um, or different ways that we'll be able to address that coming shortage. Um, and then of course, there's always changing healthcare dynamics, uh, in the political space and the financial space that we keep an eye out. Um, but ultimately we just want to focus on how we get patients the right care that they need today and then what we will do in three and five years from now from the long term vision perspective.

Speaker C: Yeah, maybe we'll have like robots do surgery.

Speaker B: Robots doing stuff.

Speaker C: Yes, that would be great.

Speaker A: That's scary.

Speaker C: It sounds like, Kate, that you got your wish when you made the jump. You've learned a lot of new things, but found that your tools in the CPG world translated really well to the new world of healthcare. So, Kate Metzinger, who's vice president of marketing at Piedmont Healthcare, thank you so much for joining us today. And if our listeners are interested in finding out more about this healthcare marketing or more about Piedmont Health, where should they go?

Speaker A: I'll go to piedmont.org and we are happy to, uh, have you guys check that out. And we will go from there.

Speaker C: And remember, they're world class, uh, heart transplants. So if you're not in Georgia.

Speaker A: Oh, that's right. Uh, come on, come on down to Georgia. We would love to care for you.

Speaker C: Thank you so much for joining us. Um, and that's all the time we have for today. We'd like to thank our producer, Jacob Grodnik, and thank you all for listening. We'll be back soon. Till then, this has been Marketing Matters on the Wharton Podcast Network. I'm Barbara Kahn, here with Americus Reed.