Practice makes permanent with Dave Hopla

Speaker A: Welcome to Three Points. I'm your host, Tony McGaran. Leadership is often shaped in the moments that we don't talk about, the decisions that stay with you and the lessons you only learn by doing the work. In this podcast, I speak with leaders from the worlds of sport, business and beyond to explore three defining points that have helped shape their approach to thinking, decision making, and leadership. It's not about having all the answers. It's about learning from the experience. If you're passionate about great leadership, you're in the right place. Today I'm joined by Dave Hopla. Dave is one of the world's leading basketball shooting coaches, a long time NBA assistant coach and personal coach to stars like Carmelo Anthony, Kobe Bryant, and Dirk Nowitzki. For over three decades, he's directed camps at pibc, helping players at every level refine their craft. He's known for his precision, energy, and love for the game. And while he can shoot with the best of them, he's an even better teacher. In this episode, Dave shares his three reasons why practice makes permanent. Let's go ahead and get stuck in Kobe Bryant.

Speaker B: When I worked him out first time I met him, uh, he was a camper and everything. And you could tell he's just like laser like focus and he's like, tell me, show me what I want to be the greatest player. He used to say, I'm not going to practice, you know, till I get it right. I'm a practice till I can't never get it wrong.

Speaker A: Coach Dave Hopler, uh, thanks so much for joining us on Three Points.

Speaker B: It's an honor and pleasure to be back in Belfast. I appreciate you having me.

Speaker A: I love that. So the reason you're back here in Belfast is that you came here to play way back in the 80s. Tell us a little bit about kind of your origin story with basketball, how you came to Belfast and sort of what your careers look like so far.

Speaker B: I, uh, came over, uh, because of Dan. Dirk and uh, Dan was the coach at St. Gall's and uh, he originally came over. He was working with the peace people at the time. And um, we had a mutual friend back in the States named Pat Nap. And Dan was looking for an American and uh, John Rush, my first year, he was the other American came over. He was from Philadelphia and me coming from Baltimore. And then um, John did one year and then I came back for two years with Boo Williams who did a lot. Boo up was from, uh, Virginia and he used to bring a lot of the, um, Irish, uh, players, boys and Girls over to his summer league and. And, um, and then he would bring teams over later. So we've stayed, uh, connected with Belfast in Northern Ireland.

Speaker A: Yeah, we were chatting on the way over here to the studio, and, uh, yes, you remain connected. You were telling me some great stories in the 80s for me as a basketball player growing up here, you know, the stories of you are just unbelievable and memorable of playing in West Belfast and, you know, bigger, big sort of crowds and lots of energy. Uh, you know. Was Belfast top of your list to come to when you were kind of getting ready to start your pro basketball career?

Speaker B: I was ready to go anywhere, uh, clearly, yeah. So I, uh, was just very fortunate to play. Uh, when I finished college, I just wanted to play. And I went to Venezuela first because there's seasons like their winters are summer and so forth. So when I got the phone call, I spoke to Dan, and, uh, he was telling me about Belfast, and I figured he sounds like a reasonable guy and if the troubles were that bad, he wouldn't have been there as well. And I. So when I went, everyone in Baltimore was all worried, and they're like, what, are you, crazy? You're going over there, there's bombs going off all the time. There's shootings and everything. And I. When I got here and, you know, spent the year and then I went back the next season, they're like, what, are you crazy? And I said, I feel safer in Belfast than I do in the streets of Baltimore. So Baltimore's, like, known as the murder capital world at the time. So. But, uh, I just love the people. And, uh, like I said, I consider Belfast my second home.

Speaker A: I love that. So, I mean, this is going Back to the 80s. Fast track tonight. You've had an amazing career. We were just chatting before hitting record. Like, you've worked with a ton of incredible shooters across the NBA, Europe and so on. We were chatting about how, you know some of these pros that when they're in their teens and seeing you speak at camp, they're still referencing some of the things that they've learned. The likes of Clay Thompson, uh, Ray Allen, Gilbert Bernis. You've worked with a bunch of players. How do you go from playing in Belfast, uh, in the 80s, to developing your career to become this expert shooting coach?

Speaker B: That's a great question. Um, it actually happened very generically. It was. I was back from playing in Belfast one year, and, uh, my old high school coach said, dave, why don't you come in and speak at my basketball camp? And I'm like, you know, when am I going to speak about. He goes, why don't you do your workout? Because I had a workout that I did. So I did that workout.

Speaker A: And.

Speaker B: And, you know, I got a couple dollars for doing it. And when I did that camp, there was another high school coach. He goes, I had a camp next week. Will you come and speak at my camp? So I was like, this is pretty cool. I'm going to be doing my workout anyway, but I'm making a few dollars for it. So I did that, and then, um, you know, came back over and was playing. And then when I left here, I went to Wales to play, and then, um, went back to the States. And it was funny. Uh, there was a cba. It was called the Continental Basketball association, which is now the G League, the Minor League of the n, where. Where C.J. uh, Fulton's playing. It's. But this was before that was called the Continental Basketball association. And they had a team in Baltimore. So they were like, you know, why don't you, uh, you know, try out for a team? You know, you're a local guy. You'll bring a few people. And I said, what do you want to bring? Like, 20 members? And that's. That's a big crowd for a CBA game.

Speaker A: But, uh, all your family.

Speaker B: Yeah, you had a family. And, uh, some of them probably wouldn't want to come anyway, but, uh, so, uh, said that. So went out for the team, and I made the team, but the checks were bouncing more than the basketball. And I'm like, this isn't good. And then I got a phone call from Henry Bibby, who was the head coach. And he goes, I got some good news and bad news. He's giving me the good news. He said, you're still with the team. The bad news is we're moving to Rockford, Illinois.

Speaker A: Oh.

Speaker B: And I'd never been. I even know where Rockford was. But I said, I can't leave. You know, at least I was staying at my mom. She wasn't killing me about rent and all that. And, like, what am I going to do? And it was too late for me to go back overseas at that point. So I'm like, what am I going to do with my life? I'm 33. Um, you know, I'm a player. I'm not a coach. So my friend Joe Bucci was coaching at Dundoc Community College. Why don't you coach? And I said, I'm not a coach. I'm a player. But he kept calling me, and I Just said, I'll come in tomorrow. Just to get him off my back. I said, I'm not a coaching player. I said, I'll come in. I don't want any money because you can't depend on me being here. I'll see, you know, I'll come in. I went in. I've been coaching ever since.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, um, so then I. I enjoyed coaching. And then I said, you know what? I'd like to try to set the highest level. So I sent videos out of me working players out me working myself. I sent out to every NBA team and I got two replies back. It was like from Doug Mo. He just passed away. Doug was a great man. And one from Mike Schuler. And nobody else even answered. So I said, okay, so I'm coaching now. Now I become the head coach at Dundalk Community College. And then, you know, I said, you know what? I can do this stuff on my own. So I started working players out individually. And then agents hired me to work out players. And then I said, you know what? Maybe I'll, you know. And eventually you never know who's watching you. I was doing a camp George Carl saw me. He was coaching the Seattle SuperSonics at the time, and he brought me in as a consult. So it's just like I always tell people, you never know who's watching you.

Speaker A: Well, you never know who's watching Dave. But it's not like you sat and waited for something to happen. You were clearly proactive, you had a vision level of purpose. You put yourself out there. And I just love the origin story of like, you didn't want to do it and uh, people closest to you. And I think that happens sometimes, doesn't it, in uh, folks career where you maybe didn't realize that you had something that would be really useful and valuable for others without the support of people saying no, of come back, come back. And it's sort of, it's. It's basically snowballed from there.

Speaker B: Sure. And uh, the thing is like, you know, with, with the coach and stuff, your coaching career is a lot longer than your playing career.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then it's um, very rewarding when you get like an email, a text, or somebody comes up to you and said, you know, you made a difference, you impacted them. But I always look at it more as like, uh, the impact you make off the court, like the person you, the values, the discipline that you, you get learned from basketball, you carries over into the business world.

Speaker A: Well, what I've loved about again, following your Career, all the great stuff. I love that you've still remained connected to this place where, where you started kind of your professional career. You have gone out and you've coached this unbelievable level in the NBA. And yeah, you're still coming back, but not only can you shoot the ball, still, uh, at the ripe old age of. Oh my God. Was it all right if I bring that up right ahead?

Speaker B: No pride.

Speaker A: 60, 69.

Speaker B: I'll be 69 in July.

Speaker A: Unbelievable. Right? So still out shooting, multiple clinics. Um, but more than that, Dave, and you talked about your coaching career. What I've loved about kind of following you is that you, you can communicate. And we were chatting a little bit off air about, right, just the importance that I was at the clinic yesterday at Queen's basketball club, my hometown club, and you were saying communication keeps us connected.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And I think for you as a teacher, as someone that is trying to impart kind of wisdom but also give value whether to the Pros or the 10 year old yesterday here in Belfast, your ability to communicate, I think is what probably has set you apart in your career. And when we were preparing to have this conversation, the one that stuck out to me in the title of this episode is, uh, three points on Practice Mix Permanent.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Tell us a little bit about your philosophy behind this. Because normally we hear practice makes perfect. But you don't believe that.

Speaker B: No, nothing, nothing's perfect. I mean, you know, you strive for it and everything, which is great thing to do. Even if you fall short, you'll be pretty, pretty good shape there. But, um, you know, like shooting, you need to have a routine. So if I'm, if I'm going to be great at something, I have to master that skill. And most players don't have routines and they try to be great at like 10 different things. So if, if I'm gonna like do the same thing over and over again, I'm also developing muscle memory. Whereas like, you know, a lot of guys shoot and everything and because they don't have a routine, they take 10 shots and it looks like 10 different people shot the basketball m. And most people like, they do not discipline themselves to do the bare basics first. They want to go, especially young kids, they, they run out, right. Three point line. And I'm um, like said, if you can't make a shot from 2ft stationary, you're not going to be able to make a shot from 20 some feet on the move. So by practicing, you know, trying to perfect, you know, your game, your form, your shot, you know, you, you'll ingrain, you know, muscle memory. And I said, setting goals for yourself and, and doing the same thing over and over again. And Steve Jobs said that, um, you know, one of the hardest things to do is the simplest acts over and over repeatedly, because we think we've mastered it because. Oh, that's, that's. And like myself, I, I didn't learn to shoot the basketball correctly TILL I was 16 by going to a basketball camp. And I saw three guys that impacted my life. Hank Slider, her McGee and George Lehman. This is before videos and all that. And I had to, like, watch everything they did. And all three of them had the same footwork, the same hand positioning, elbow positioning, and then I had to go to emulate, emulate, duplicate, replicate what I saw and over and over and over again until I got it. Okay, now I got it. Okay, I got it from two feet and I'm take a step back to three feet and keep break. Now where is it starting to break down, up. I'm not ready to move back there yet.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, uh, most people don't want to do those steps and. But when things break down, what's everyone say? Let's go back to the basics and fundamentals.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So why would you ever get away from basics and fundamentals? If and, and if it's going to break down, should be it. And I don't shoot every day, but every day that I shoot, I do my one hand for the easiest drills.

Speaker A: Yeah. And like, the concept is simple. The practice doesn't make perfect and make it permanent. And that therefore, as you say, you should start with fundamentals. I mentioned this to you earlier on the, on the right over that. You know, this is a lesson that I bring to the work that we do in the corporate world, uh, with leaders, because oftentimes, probably like shooters, like basketball players, like athletes, they've developed habits over years, decades. And if that hasn't gone sort of unchecked, unrevised, unscrutinized, then there's a chance that they are just repeating the same mistakes over again. And there's a bit around reflective practice, um, keeping it simple, keeping the fundamentals. I was just chatting with a client, uh, of ours who, you know, we've done work with them in the past and we've looked at kind of real fun, engaging, like, edge cases of things that we'll look at, which is really inspiring. And now they're actually, there's. They're going back to fundamentals and saying we need to make sure our leaders are doing the basic. Right every day. Because these are the things that are repetitive that they're doing often. And I love this, Dave, because, you know, a lot of the stuff that you're going to share with us, I think is useful for basketball players, for coaches, I think for leaders, I think for individuals. Uh, and you just do such a good job at articulating them. So let's jump into your. Into your three points. Um, and your first one. You've touched on it already a little bit, but we'll go deeper into it now. Routines win win games.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: Routines win games.

Speaker B: So, um, you know, routines once again, like, you develop a routine. Most players don't have a routine, believe it or not. You know, they, like, if they do have bad habits, they're just reinforcing bad habits. And a lot of these trainers, you know, they, they just like, they don't want to lose a client. They're afraid to, like, tell, hey, you know, your toes pointing over there, you know, and you got to make little adjustments. Like said, how are you going to. We'd go back to the 1%, you know, let you just do that. That's going to help you out. But routine. Ray Allen, hall of Famer, and he, his, um, hall of Fame accepted speech. He said, 22 years of doing the same thing has made Ray Allen a Hall of Famer. If I didn't have a routine, I wouldn't be standing here in front of you. So routine is so important. And then you just build on that, and as you master it, then you can add another thing and another thing. But most people want to go, and I sits like a ladder. You can't skip steps on a ladder. Now I can jump up on stairs a little easier. I could jump up one step, you know, two steps at a time, whatever. But on a ladder, you can't skip steps.

Speaker A: You know, just sticking on that routine piece. I think when you work with the pros, then at the NBA level, you mentioned folks like Rasheed. I know Kobe Bryant was famous for kind of routine. Did you see, you know, at that level, are they all into routine or are you still coming in with some pros and saying, great, you've got something there, but you're not either spending enough time in the right areas or how are you correcting them a little bit?

Speaker B: Yeah, there's, um, you know, like, the greats are all, like, coachable and want to get better. And there's some guys that are just resistance to change. And, uh, Kobe Bryant, when I worked him out first time I met him, uh, he was a camper and everything. And you could tell he's just like, laser, like, focus. And then, you know, I was fortunate enough to work. Work him for five years, you know, his first five years in the league in the summertime, Oren tell him was his agent, and he hired, uh, me to work with him and Kobe, like, was chip burn or not a hole in your. With your eyes? And he's like, tell me, show me what I do. I'd be the greatest player. And his attention to detail. And he used to say, um, I'm not going to practice, you know, uh, you know, till I get it right. I'm a practice till I can't never get it wrong. Wow. So.

Speaker A: And just a different.

Speaker B: I mean, a different mindset. And the thing is, we had this one drill we're doing is where, you know, he had to make an L cut and he catch it out and it'd be an inside pivot, and his right foot was his pivot foot, so he had a jab with his left. And it's like, you know, well, let's make 25 and, you know, then we'll go to next spot. I'll be like, you know, shot fake, whatever. And he, uh, makes his 25 and he's like. I said, okay, let's go next week. No, no, no, no, no. I said, what's up? Because they all didn't feel right. So he goes, I wanna, I wanna make sure I. I got it mastered. So he makes an extra 50. Now we go to the shot fake spot. He does a shot fake. He goes, I want to go back to the L cut. I want to make sure that you all feel the same as. I finally got it down. So he made an extra 100 shots from something he wasn't comfortable with.

Speaker A: Just amazing. M. Just a bit. It's different. It's different from doing the task right. A lot of players, I think they. They drill for the drill rather than drill for what it's going to feel

Speaker B: and then just get to the next. Because I want to. I want to get the workout over with. I want to go, okay, let's. I've got that thing and I'm not good at it, so let me get out of it real. So then the next, next workout, we always start with our form shooting. He goes, before we start, I want to go back again to. And just like, I've been disappointed in every other player because his work ethic is off the charts, his attention to detail, and he was always early and always stayed late. And uh, was just, you know, like

Speaker A: I said, it's um, one of a kind, really.

Speaker B: Yes, exactly.

Speaker A: So we're going to pivot into your second point. And that's about simplicity is key. Right. So what other sort of teachings do you bring when it comes to simplicity?

Speaker B: Well, once again I'll tell another great Kobe Bryant story. So, um, I'd worked with Kobe, you know, for a number of years. And so at this point of Kobe's career, he's the best player in the world. He's number one jersey selling in the world most valuable player champion. So Nike had the Kobe Bryant skills Academy where they bring in the top. Naturally your Nike kids, 150 players and they have college, uh, players as counselors and, and then at nighttime Kobe would play, you know, have a lot of players come in. They would, the entertainment would be watching the NBA guys play. So a friend of mine, Alan Stein, former camper, now he's a big motivational speaker. He used to be the strength and conditioning coach at the Matha High School in Hyattsville. And it's a big story program. They've sent like a hundred kids to the NBA, you know, thousands to scholarship. But it's a storied program in the D.C. area, Maryland, D.C. area. So he's working the camp and Kobe's his favorite part. He can't believe that he is in Kobe Bryant's presence. So he goes over to Kobe. Hi, I'm Alan Stein. You know, I'm young, I want to learn and uh, you know, I've heard about the Mamba workouts and I just wonder if I can watch you work out sometime during to camp week at camp. And Kobe goes, sure. Tomorrow, 4:30. And Alan goes, where's his games? At 4:30 Kobe goes, that's 4:30am so he's sort of like, uh, sort of like calling me out here. But how often you get to see Kobe Bryant work out? So he sets his alarm. He doesn't sleep real well because he's nervous going to go. So. But he's fired up. He gets, stops get big coffee, gets it, gets the gym. A quarter after four, Kobe's in there with Joe Carbone, strength and conditioning coach. Joe's good friend of mine and um, he's doing ladder drills, defensive slides. 4:30 comes, Joe's off the court, on comes Coach Hopla and um, Allan gets his chairs close to the workout. He's got the notebook and he's on the edge of his seat. Like his eyes, he's like, this is gonna be Great watching, you know, Kobe work out with coach Hopla. This is gonna be fantastic. So all of a sudden, 4, 45, uh, body language starts changing, you know. Oh man. Now he's like drinking his coffee. Like he's trying to stay awake. He's like looking at his watch like, this is, this is some boring stuff. This is like, I mean, I don't believe it. So anyway, after an hour and a half of workout, he was, you know, he had his notebook there and everything. And so he had, uh, was taking notes. He wanted to see what kind of drills he was going to get from coach Hopla. And he had a blank page. He had blank page. So this was bothering him. And he said, he said, this is the most boring workout I'd ever seen. The most boring, basic, monotonous, mundane workout I ever seen. I thought it was like watching a 10 year old workout. He said the fanciest thing we did was, you know, one dribble, pull up, say air shot, fake jab step. So now this is eating at him the whole time. He got up early in the morning to watch this, right? So at lunchtime he sees Kobe and he goes over to Kobe. He goes, uh, Kobe, could I join you for lunch? And Kobe says, sure. And he goes, you mind if I ask you about your workout this morning? Kobe goes, go right ahead. He goes, it was the most boring, basic, mundane workout. You're seeing Kobe flash that million dollar smile. He goes, that's why I'm the greatest player in the world. I never get bored of the basics. The fundamentals never go out of style. Wow. And that's, that's a powerful message, you know, because everybody likes it, wants to do the fancy things, you know, and there's Kobe doing the most basic, basic things.

Speaker A: I love that. Ah, there's literally nothing else we can talk about with the simplicity because it nails every part of the teaching. And, and it's Kobe Bryant.

Speaker B: Yeah. No, I love that. The same thing though. You, you go, go look at Michael Jordan. At the end of his career when he was at the Wizards, he was still getting 20 points a game. He didn't do anything fancy. He wasn't Air Jordan anymore at that point. Yeah, but he could, he could hit a 15 foot jump shot, jab, jump shot. Wasn't doing anything fancy then, you know, because the fundamentals, like I said, never go out.

Speaker A: I love that. So, coach, we've talked about your career so far and your journey to coaching NBA players and coaching with NBA teams. We have also looked at this concept of routines and how they win games. You've told an amazing story now about your second point with, uh, Kobe Bryant, uh, and, and being the most boring workout, but just that's what's made him the best in the world ever. Uh, let's talk about your third point now. And I know you've got your notebooks with us. That's a bit of fun. And, uh, you've been doing this for a while, but you have been charting your shots, so you have been tracking progress. And just again, before I went on air, you were like, yeah, I've been, you know, here's something from yesterday. I was noticing about my body and about how it was affecting me. Just tremendous discipline once again, self awareness and, and also an analytical approach to, to what you do.

Speaker B: Right. And it's funny. So it started out when I went to my first basketball camp when I was 16. And um, there was a young, young coach. I wish I would have known his name because he had a huge impact on my life. And he said, dave, if you're serious about being a good ball player, you need to have a practice plan, a workout plan. You need to keep track of your shots. I thought I was the only kid in the world not doing it. Turns out I'm like guy in the world that ever did it. So I came home from camp and, you know, it was a great week. It was all basketball and I'd like, you know, I, I realized I knew absolutely nothing about the game and, and I came home and gave my mother to dirty clothes and said I got to go to courts because when you're not practicing, somebody somewhere isn't they're going to beat you. And I said, but before I go to courts, I said to my mom, I said, I need, I need a notebook and I need a pen. And she's like, well, for, and I looked at like, well, you can't improve on something if you don't measure it. Like now I'm a big shot, like, I know everything. So she gets me a notebook in a pen and I go up with my basketball dribble up to the courts. And she figures this will last for like, you know, a week, you know, and uh, a week has turned into, like I said, 52 plus years.

Speaker A: You've been tracking the whole time?

Speaker B: Yes, but like I said, there's, there's a million shots I haven't tracked because when I played pickup basketball at the park, I'm not tracking my shots, uh, warm ups and games, practice and with teams. But like, whenever I was bought, it at the park by myself. I was in. They used to call me the nerd with the notebook.

Speaker A: I just love the. I just love this image of you going to pick up game, be like, sorry, guys. Yeah, give me a wee second.

Speaker B: My shots. Hold on, hold on there. But, uh, not, you know, not doing that stuff. But, um. So anyway, I started tracking my shots and I saw myself getting better. And as I got better, my confidence grew. Confidence leads to success. Success leads to confidence. Ongoing cycle. But then I saw myself getting. So I want to get better. So what do you, you know, you're getting better, you practice more. So I kept working on it. And, um, as I've gotten older with my book, uh, this is like, this is one. Here's my lecture book. So when I speak, I have somebody keep track of my shots because I can't do that. And like said, and then I have my workout book. So what I do, my workout book now is I write down now where I miss. Like, years ago, I just had makes and misses. So over the years is this has evolved. Now I write down how my body's feeling when I miss a shot. I write down where I miss because I want to know why I missed it, why it was that way. So.

Speaker A: And tell me this. When you've brought this. I assume you brought this to some of the pros. Some of these NBA folks said, hey, I need a track. Any of them kind of laugh it off and say, dave, you're my.

Speaker B: You know what this. This is. This is really a great question. So what I did when I got in the NBA, right? And this, you know, you think that, you know, NBA guys, oh, this is crazy stuff. So when I got hired every NBA team, I had notebooks made for every player. And I had them like, uh, you know, a clear thing. And I had a picture of like, how about this, Ron? Or Test.

Speaker A: Yes. Meta World.

Speaker B: Metal World Peace. You're talking about, you know, great guy, like, you know, a little bit wild and different, but all of a sudden he's got a notebook. Whenever I do individual work, I got in and Aries on the COVID So everyone's got their own. They're on the COVID of every notebook. And it's like they think they're on the COVID of NBA 2K now, right? All because I'm doing something nobody else does it. So when we work out, yeah, we had a great workout. Well, how do you know you had a great workout? M. Now, I can't do that when I'm working with three guys, but individually, we all had that M. And I'd give it to him at the end of the year. And I. And it's, it also would have down with the scouting reports, Ron. What other teams had. And they would, some of the guys like cherished them. Like it was like they just, oh man, I'm on the COVID of this thing. So. And then when they had a bunch of basketball courts with diagrams, if we did off the dribble and I'd write down what they shot that day. And then also it justified me. Like, hey, you know, you're, you're, you don't shoot the ball very well going to the left or. And everybody's workout's different because you might be a real good catch and shoot guy, but you got to work a little bit more on pull up jump shots.

Speaker A: So it's individual.

Speaker B: Yes. And also it, uh, you know, I could tell the coaches like, you know, what have you been working on with them? Here it is. Here's the notebook. What day? What do you want to see what we did.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But the players would get the biggest kick out of it and I'd have my, my.

Speaker A: Because who doesn't want to feel, not feel. Know that they're getting better.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: And that's the difference right there. If it's, you know, you can come in and go, I had a great day. Um, I played well or I shot well today. Well, how do you know? Track. And I think right. In the work that we're doing as well, it's like, it's not dissimilar. And I think, uh, actually sports has informed a lot of, I think, uh, sort of, sort of people data, uh, and performance data in the workplace. Right. Like, you know, if you're performing well, you need to be able to measure that performance or attempt to. And I think sometimes it's difficult if it's not a binary thing, like how many elbow pull up jump shots did you hit? But there's always something to be measured. I think what's amazing about watching you, Dave, and doing this because I guess as a preface I'm thinking about technology. Everyone's got their shot trackers and so on. But you know, and I know AI is oh, tuck the elbow in. But we go back to what we talked about earlier, this kind of human connection and this ability to individualize not just the plan and the routine, but the feedback. Annoying. What player needs what who needs a bit of encouragement, a pat in the butt versus a kick up the butt and how you do that. And I think that's what you do so effectively with the pros or the kids. I mean, this is something that's quite probably intentional for you as you approach and as you think about sort of the human element.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, I'm always big. Like, you know, I'm being positive. Like, positive energy. Like, you know, I always tell people, like, say, how are you doing? I always say, I'm doing great, phenomenal, fantabulous, whatever, not good, because there's different levels of good. There's good, pretty good, very good. So. But greatness leaves a legacy. But I bring the energy in and into the gym, and, like, if I don't have any enthusiasm, how do I expect you to be excited about a workout? You know? And, um, it's just, uh, it's not just basketball, but just my whole life outlook on things, you know, kids will, like, says, okay, my one hand form shooting. This is my shooting hand. What's this hand called? And I'll say a guide hand. I say, what's a guide hand set do? And they said it guides it into the basket. I said, you should. You shoot. You should call it a misguided hand because it doesn't guide it in. And I said, so we got to change our terminology, just like we changed our attitude. And then said some coaches called an offhand, you don't want your shot to be off. That's a negative term. And then other coaches called a non shooting hand. If you're a non shooter, you can't shoot. So what's it actually do? It's a balance hand. It helps you lift the ball and support it. So everything is all about positives.

Speaker A: But it's more, it's. And it's more than the positive stuff because it's intentional language. It's.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: It's easy to understand. And I think your job as a coach, as a trainer.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Uh, is to make sure people understand.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah. No, you're getting your point across, like, with the basketball. Like, I said, I could come in here and tell you when your grip, your fingertips should be perpendicular to the seams. I said, nobody's gonna understand. So just read the ball. Just read the ball. That, you know, simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, so some people try to over, um, over complicate things. Like, I'm the smartest man in the world.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I'm like, I'm the opposite. Like, let's just dummy it down so everyone can understand it in layman terms.

Speaker A: And I think that's, again, what I admire most about you, what I'VE learned from you, and I've tried to apply it to my own work in facilitation is. There's a lot of academia and theory in my world. And, uh, it's complex.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And it's hard to understand. If I can't understand, I can't do anything with it. I can't change my behavior and my actions. I can't improve. And when you dumb it down or make it simple or make it easy to understand, M. It's easier to apply.

Speaker B: And like, you know, with the clinics, I talk about the kids like, it's like building a. Ah, building a house from the ground up. So my footworks, my foundation.

Speaker A: Footwork.

Speaker B: M. Foundation, folks. My base gives me balance. B. My toe points to my target. T, elbow above eyebrow. E. Hand in the hoop. H, freeze, follow through. F. Word association. It's wrist wrinkle. R. The kids will say, no. I said, it's a W. But like, you know, you know, they just can't spell anymore. But, uh, it's all. If you remember, you know, those things, it's you in it. How can you not remember that? To help.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, but the kids will. They don't pay attention to the details. So I say, where did I say my toe points? They said, to the basket. I said, I never said that because my target will change if I shoot a bank shot. So I said, detail. And I always tell kids detail. And, you know, it's. It's just, um, you know, like I said, paying attention and keeping it simple.

Speaker A: And it's crazy, Dave. I mean, you still have the energy for this. It's clear to me, like, lots of different lessons here. As we mentioned, routines, win games. Simplicity's key. Chart your shots. A lot of this stuff, as we've talked about, applies directly to shooting the basketball and being a great player. Not a good player. A great player.

Speaker B: There we go.

Speaker A: Um, I said very good earlier. And I was sitting, replaying and going, why did I say so? To be a great player. But what I love about sort of these teachings and insights, they can be applied to life, to. To kind of your relationship at work, to kind of how you approach anything, really. If folks listening or watching were to apply some of the things that you share with us today. How might the world change for the better? Dave?

Speaker B: I think, uh, like said, you know, talking about, like, business, uh, world in the world. I actually do a lot of corporate speaking and my talk's called Shooting for success. And to be successful, whether it's, you know, team, business, apply it to life lessons to one another, like, you know, my. The first S, you know, acronym sacrifice. And unfortunately, you know, we're very selfish. We don't want to do something, you know, like, you know, I'm, um, the one setting the screen. You know, you're getting a shot. And, uh, you know, the biggest sacrifice anyone makes is like, you know, there's a hand grenade there, somebody's got to take it, you know, where we all die and so forth. But, uh, you know, it's the first S. The second S is unselfishness, which, if you're going to be a great team, you have to be unselfish. And I want to see you succeed more than I care about my own success. And then I talk about, like, character, commitment, efforts, standards, and someone. So, you know, somebody had to impact you. You have to some. You pass your knowledge on to somebody else. And if we do that, and I always tell, you know, my daughter and everyone, like, you know, if we would just treat people the way we'd like to be treated, we'd be in a much better place.

Speaker A: Well, look, Dave, thanks so much.

Speaker B: Uh, join us. I had a. I had a blast. I. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me on.

Speaker A: It's great to have you here. I wish you all the best on your. On your next tour and all the places you're going. And thanks so much for. For being here. You're a legend.

Speaker B: Uh, thanks. In my own mind,

Speaker A: what an absolutely fantastic conversation with Coach Dave. As I mentioned earlier, he is just full of energy and motivation for all of us. Not only can he shoot the ball really well, it's his ability to communicate and help us take away some insights that we can apply to our lives is really what I find most useful in this conversation. If you haven't had a chance to check out all the stuff online of him shooting the basketball, it's worth a look. Uh, and I really hope you enjoyed the conversation. If you did, go ahead and share it with friends and family. Make sure to subscribe and we'll catch you next time on three points.