People-first digital transformation in the NHS, with Georgina Charlton

Speaker A: Welcome to season five of the Women

Speaker B: in Health Tech Show.

Speaker A: Real stories, hard won lessons and practical

Speaker B: advice for women building better healthcare using technology. I'm your host, Catherine Davies. Let's dive in.

Speaker A: My guest today is Georgina Charlton, the Associate Director of Delivery for Guy's and St. Thomas's NHS Foundation Trust. Georgina is a diagnostic radiographer turned digital health leader with over 17 years of experience in the NHS. As Associate Director of Delivery within the Apollo Program, she leads the transformation of healthcare through data and technology optimisation with a strong focus on adoption, return on investment and benefit realisation. Georgina's career is defined by strong clinical leadership and operational delivery with a proven record of building and leading high performing multidisciplinary teams to drive organisational and system change. Her expertise includes shaping the future of a data driven NHS by maximizing the benefits of electronic patient record systems, leveraging data platforms for improved patient outcomes and navigating the digital health and AI future in the nhs. Georgina is particularly focused on empowering people during digital transformation and ensuring the successful impact of change. As a former award winning Freedom to Speak Up Guardian and London Region lead, she's dedicated to fostering psychologically safe and inclusive environments where innovation thrives.

Speaker B: Welcome Georgina. I'm delighted that you've been able to join me this morning. Where are you joining from?

Speaker C: I'm joining um, from Guy's and St. Thomas' where I'm an Associate Director of Delivery.

Speaker B: Fantastic, thank you so much. So let's just start with an overview of your life and career to date, Georgina. How have you ended up doing what you're doing today?

Speaker C: So I started my career, ah, my NHS career as a diagnostic radiographer. And actually this was inspired by um, childhood, uh, friend's dad who I remember coming home from school one day and he had been traveling and I was like, oh, you know, where, you know, where have you been? He was showing me all these like art, like African artifacts and I was like this is fascinating. And he's like, oh, I've been over um, to an African country where I've been teaching them sonography. And I was like, just absolutely fascinated that he had kind of obviously got a career as a radiographer and was going to other countries teaching others. So that was how I kind of sparked the thought about becoming uh, a radiographer. I'd never heard of it before. And so I started to do a little bit of homework and you know, I was probably like 12 years old, you know, and I remember, you know, in secondary school people like, oh, you know, have you thought about where you want to be like John to go to university. I said, I want to be a diagnostic radiographer. And they're just like, how did you even come up with that? And you know, and I often tell that story and actually once I went to university, got my degree, you know, there's a few times where I've circled back around. I'm not in touch with that friend anymore. But, you know, I have crossed paths with her father a few times. And you know, he really was um, a kind of key, ah, inspiration in my career. I was quite curious around, you know, do I go and do a degree, you know, in a university or do I approach radiography in a different, uh, way? And one of the things I explored was actually joining the army and being uh, a military, uh, radiographer and doing my career there. Um, as I was just fascinated and very curious. I ended up going to a university in London in the end because the, you know, the bright lights of the city kind of drew me in away from from where I grew up. I grew up in the New Forest, which is a big part of kind of who I am today. And my family kind of resided there because my grandfather, uh, was the chief forester of the Forestry Commission. So nature is, is yeah, a really significant kind of part of my heritage. And actually he's the only one in our family that dabbled the tiniest bit in the health care. So I feel like I'm a little bit of an outlier in my family. My brother and my father electricians and my sister and my mum work, uh, in the financial kind of sector and run businesses. But my grandfather was um, uh, an ambulance driver in the Second World War, um, and found it of course hugely traumatic. And that's why he then went into, to forestry. So he's the only healthcare connection we have. And it's just me who's gone kind of gone on that healthcare journey to where I am today. And then in kind of more recent times with, you know, I was a frontline radiographer for about six or seven years and I still have my professional registration, but I really wanted to kind of bust out the lead line walls, I guess, of radiography and um, you know, working in darkened rooms all day, especially in the winter months is quite difficult. And I think I just became quite curious, especially in the kind of leadership, uh, space around actually, you know, what more or bigger impact could I make working outside of radiology? So that's kind of how I then kind of segued into the more kind of transformation space.

Speaker B: Yeah. So Tell us why you wanted to put your time and energy into transformation projects in the nhs.

Speaker C: I guess I would always describe myself as a people person, extroverted by nature. Um, and I like human, human connection. And you know, I've always been very good at ah, speaking to people and listening. Um, and my mum says I actually have never changed personality wise from, from a young child to who I am today. And I often, you know, look back at, you know, like you do with some of your old school reports and it's always like, you know, Georgina is a very good listener. Um, she's very collaborative, you know, she likes to listen to other people's views. Um, and so I guess, you know, I'm the youngest of three siblings, so maybe I've learned to stand back and observe but always get away with everything that my siblings didn't. So I guess I've always been a people person and I think in the NHS itself, our business is people and humans primarily, even though we're doing a lot of work in the digital space. So I think that's kind of what got me into the kind of leadership transformation space is like the, what I would call the power of the people to ah, be able to change the ideas that people have. I think sometimes decisions are made by, you know, national bodies, by boards of organizations and actually some of the best ideas and the ways to solve some of our problems are by porters who might be observing, you know, the flow being completely incorrect every single time, um, or those that are kind of delivering that kind uh, of hands on. So part of it I think was that I'm a people person. So I quite enjoyed motivating it, empowering people to be able to be vehicles, uh, of change. And then personality wise, I'm definitely a completer finisher. I am a little bit of a perfectionist. I do always put that up front. If I've got a new uh, member of staff, I'm always like, you know, I do have an eye for detail, like this is my expectations. And actually that's whilst that's not a bad thing because I think, you know, when I reflect on lots of different people I've worked with, some, someone laying out their expectations to start with really does help you kind of, uh, grow and thrive. So, yeah, bit of a perfectionist, all about the detail. And of course there's that feeling of achievement when, when you can see something that isn't working, that now is working, whether that be a system, whether that be a process or whether it be looking at different ways of Working. So how do we utilize people's, people's skills, uh, in a different way? So I think that's, I think by my m. Kind of nature of who I am, what I enjoy doing and also wanting to connect with people, um, is probably kind of how landed really, uh, doing kind of uh, transformation in the nhs. And I have done lots of different transformation, corporate, clinical process. And actually the one thing that I was kind of missing, I guess if you looked at my cv, was that it was kind of digital transformation, which is kind of where my journey has taken me in the last two to three years.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's really interesting that you come from that mindset of working with people to create uh, transformation rather than seeing transformation as a sort of engineered system where you might see problems and improvements that could be made to systems. Tell me a little bit more about the importance of people in actually delivering change. And if it would be helpful, perhaps you could refer to the transformation project that you've been involved in. Most recently.

Speaker C: The most kind of recent kind of transformational programs that I've been working on have been based on uh, my organization, uh, implementing a new uh, electronic patient record back in 2023. And I kind of fell into that a little bit. So the program kind of was going through a period of reflection and actually they were looking for somebody that had some organisational change skills, which was what I was doing at the time. So I remember it clearly. I kind um, of got a phone call from my line manager about 6pm saying oh, you're off to work in the Apollo program tomorrow morning. And I was like, great, okay, you know, no problem. Off I trotted the following morning, um, which was fantastic. And you know, that would make some people feel quite nervous, you know, that sudden change. But um, I'm definitely a person who likes difficult or wicked issues as they say in the nhs and like throw me in, into the deep end and uh, you know, I'll get stuck in and turn things around. So I kind of fell into that. And interestingly the reason, one of the other reasons I was approached was that um, a previous role that I had, I've had quite a few in, uh, my organization was a Speak up guardian. And what that is, is that's a mandated role in the NHS to help people raise concerns, speak up, etc. So I was a familiar face in the organization and one that people kind of trusted uh, and recognized from experience. Like we've all done it and I've done it many times where I'm like, you know, whether it be a framework that I've learned in a, you know, a course online or you know, a formal business framework. And you go out and you're like, yeah, this is how like we should be delivering this change. Step one is this, step two is that, Step three is this. And you've just totally forgotten the people element. And actually if, if the people don't want to do step one, you're not going to get to step two, three, four, five, etc. And in the business world and in NHS, we love these step changes and actually the change is so much more iterative and you know, sometimes you have to go round this kind of preparation circle for months and months, uh, on end. And you know, one of my projects that I ran, it took six months for us to actually almost press the go button. But in those um, that, that kind of prep time, all I did was work with stakeholders. So I really tried to understand who they are professionally and personally, what drives and motivates them. There's a lot of pressure in the NHS to save money, but a lot of what drives us to come to work is delivering high quality and safe patient care. So understanding what is driving your stakeholders, um, and then how do they like to communicate, having worked with such a plethora of people, from academics to administrators to consultants to board members, people like to see and receive information kind of in a different way. So really understanding, like if you send a 10 page report to somebody who actually just wants a three top bullet points. So really understanding, uh, uh, the people and how they like to work, empowering people, uh, you know, we often don't do that stakeholder bit enough is what I see in the nhs, we come in with a framework or a methodology to do something. And I've just seen, you know, I think, you know, one of the statistics, you know, I think change often fails at least, you know, 70% of the time. And I do think like the missing ingredient is that is the people. And where I've seen change being delivered really successfully is that early engagement that buy in that understanding. And actually like we all have a part to play when we deliver multidisciplinary clinical care. We all have a role. So if, you know, I, uh, sometimes try to use kind of clinical analogies when I'm delivering transformation in the nhs. You know, when you deliver care, it needs multiple people that have different skills, different experience. But sometimes I don't think we think about that. When we approach change, we have change managers, we have analysts, et cetera. But actually it is a multidisciplinary uh, approach to change and that is coming uh, from people and people and their skills and experience.

Speaker B: So what were your expectations of bringing an electronic patient record system into the NHS and were these correct?

Speaker C: The system we've implemented is incredible and so obviously my expectations were that it's going to improve the ways of working, improve clinical care, drive efficiencies and be kind of revolutionary I guess. Um, and I already work in an organization that is quite digitally mature and enabled. So I sometimes think about the journeys of others that are still heavily working on paper and there are many NHS organizations that are prescribing medications on paper, taking clinical notes and documentation on paper. So I guess the step between, you know, the step that we took, we were using a number of digital, multiple digital solutions. Um, but so the step was I guess not, not so great. So I think there's a lot of pressure and a lot of expectation that these systems are going to overnight transform the way that the NHS works. And actually it's the transformational bits that sit underneath it. And I think we are seeing fantastic improvements to all of those things that I said. But the fundamental around this is around ways of working and it's about how people are working. So I think you can have a fantastic system that is well designed but you're really only going to get all of those benefits. So the efficiencies, those patient care efficiencies from getting a good level of adoption and understanding. And sometimes I think wow, you know, we've got this system, we've had it for like a number of years now, like why aren't people doing X, Y and Z? And then I walk onto a ward and I see how busy they are delivering clinical care, that they're not going to be sat there looking at the amazing self service analytical tools that it has or pulling reports. So uh, you know, I have to manage my own expectations by getting as close to the front line as regularly as possible to then try and understand that kind of uh, journey of kind of digital transformation and maturity of people. I still think that the system will meet my expectations and I have a million examples of how it does already. But there's so, so much more I think uh, to come and I think that has to be underpinned by you know, clear kind of transformation programs that are resourced to do that. I think you know the NHS and the ten Year Plan talks a lot about kind of that digital enablement and you know, putting the power into patients hands and that's amazing as a patient And I, um, you know, I have a very good patient portal in the hospital that I'm a patient at and I can do all sorts, my letters, my blood tests, etc. But there are people that out there that might not have that kind of accessibility to digital systems, um, et cetera. So I still remain very optimistic. You know, one thing that I do see a little bit in the nhs, um, in our personal lives, you know, I can't remember the last time something's come through my letterbox on paper. And I do get accused a little bit of being called the paper police in my organization because, you know, in everyday life we don't use paper. We manage our a, ah, lot of our lives either via a laptop or an app, whether that be banking, whether it be me ordering my weekly food shop, which I do via an app and then I go and click and collect it. But I do see, um, in the nhs, NHS staff, you know, we walk into a hospital, we feel like things are different. And an example I give is, you know, like, when was the last time that you went to a supermarket or a shop and you didn't scan your food yourself? Right. You know, there's usually one human behind and there's like what, 10 self service tips? Um, however, we still have challenges where people, we know that prescribing medications, if you're able to kind of scan the barcodes and allocate that to patients, that's a safe process. But we still see across the NHS where we have that functionality that the compliance levels aren't always as high as we'd expect. But I'm like, but you do that every day. You come into a hospital and you see people, you see receptionists. My GP surgery in a little village in Hampshire where I live in, you know, I don't see a single human until I get to the gp. I log in myself. When I go to pick up my food delivery from uh, a click and collect, I scan a QR code to tell them that I'm here. So we use so much of that technology in everyday life that sometimes I walk into the NHS and I am a patient in multiple hospitals and it feels like we're going back into the, into the dark ages, really. And so I sometimes have to challenge, challenge our staff. Like, well, we spend all day on our mobile phones messaging people, speaking to people. Like, why can't you document your observations on a mobile handheld device? Oh, I don't know if I could do that. And you know, so it's just kind of like challenging people's behaviors. I think that's the other thing is that um, you know, there needs to be a real behavioral, uh, kind of shift I think, uh, in the, in the nhs. But some of this technology, let's be real, it costs a lot of money. And I think it was going to be interesting to see how the next five to ten years plan out. With such a strong push for digital technology infrastructure into the nhs. With the undertone of performance challenges and financial challenges, it feels at times a bit of a lose lose situations for many organizations. You know, the organization I work for has invested well, um, and part of my current role is to realize that those benefits, to really see this as a return on investment, a business transaction, we will spend X amount of money. This is the benefits we'll get out of the system. But I do think that kind of approach, um, is a little bit unusual in the nhs to be really keeping the finger on the financial benefit pulse.

Speaker B: Yeah, gosh, there's such a lot there, Georgina, that's so, so interesting. So one of the things that I'm curious about is you mentioned online shopping and banking and obviously there are so many examples of markets that have been disrupted by technology. The interesting thing there is that for a lot of people the technology was so intuitive and so helpful that we didn't need transformation programs to teach us how the technology should be used and what it could actually do. What do you think it is about the nature of health care that means that those change programs to get people to do things differently is so difficult? Is it inherent in the nature of health? Is it something to do with the fact that the risks of things going wrong are so much more serious? Or something to do with the fact that the way we have grown to learn how to be consumers of healthcare services has sort of made us give responsibility to other people in the system, to medical professionals, so that we don't feel as empowered to make changes. What are some of the reasons that transformation is different in health compared to other sectors?

Speaker C: So that's a really, really good question. Uh, you make an interesting point about that responsibility. You know, I'm responsible for making sure all my bills are paid, that I, you know, make sure I get good deals on my energy provider, feed myself, etc. And I guess to date, um, you're right. I think some of that responsibility navigating through, you know, our healthcare systems in the UK are in the hands of the, of the clinicians or the care teams, you know, referral, you know, whilst we are doing lots of fantastic work in the NHS around self referrals, direct access, etc. I would probably say the majority is still requires some sort of kind of intervention by their care provider. And so you just, you kind of, I don't know if you've pushed that responsibility so you kind of take a, you know, take that step back. And I think, you know, one of the examples is um, you know, people that get, you know, lost to follow up. Like I said, I use the NHS for a number of different uh, services personally. And you know I've been waiting nine months for a diagnostic test and two months ago I thought, not quite sure, like I should be waiting this long. But I was like, you know what, I understand the pressure of the nhs so you know, I'm not going to be that annoying person who rings them up, you know, just in case I'm still on the list. I've had no validation that I'm on a list. I've got no, had no validation of how long that's going to take. And I thought, you know what, I'm gonna ring them. And so I did ring ring them and they were lovely. Um, you know I could have contacted them from a different, for a different channel if you know, because ringing people is not my communication preference. But that was what was only available to me. So you know, I rang them and I was like, oh, you know, really apologetic. I was like I'm so sorry to contact you but I just want to confirm like that, that I haven't been forgotten. They're like, no, no, no, really sorry. You know the waiting times are really long for this diagnostic service but you, you will be seen in the next couple of months etc And I was like great, you know, thank you so much kind of for letting me know. And yeah, and I now have that appointment so you know, I had to own a little bit of that to check but actually if there were better ways. So I know the NHS uh, app for example now if you're some, you know, with some services, if you're referred it says, oh, you know, the estimated waiting time for this service at that hospital is X. Well that helps manage people's uh, expectations. But also you know, I would encourage people, if you have been waiting and you haven't heard then absolutely kind of reach out and take a little bit of that responsibility. And I think where we can start seeing some of that responsibility disability shift changing is obviously patient initiated follow up pathways which are, you know, being heavily encouraged which personally would be amazing for me. I have a chronic condition and it flares up every three to four years if I, you know, and every time I have to go to my gpgp, get that referral back in. And actually that can, that can take time. So I do think there's definitely that responsibility and I think, you know, what we can see with the strategic direction of the NHS is to try and put more empowerment, ownership, similar, similar terminology into patients, uh, patients hands. But, you know, there's risks with, with that now with the use of AI, Google, Chat, gbt, etc, you know, you can put all these things into a chat bot and try and diagnose yourselves, which, you know, some of the quality of what you can get out now through the likes of AI is good, but that's still not a clinician looking at you running some diagnostic tests if needed, etc. And I do think, as the other point you made was about risk, um, and some of these things, like we have to make bold decisions, decisions that might not work for everyone. So, you know, do we truly think that in, you know, the shopping industry, banking, you know, when they sat down, you know, that they were there to save money, right? So let's use these innovative systems to save on potential like, you know, human resource or automate transactional processes. And it's going to annoy some of your, your customers, right? It's going to happen because you're going to have people that refuse to interact with these systems, etcetera, but they still proceed and get on with it. And then those people that grumble, you think, well, actually, I can't manage my, my banking without really using an app or whatever. So, uh, you know, I am going to have to lean in and learn this myself. Because you made a valid point around. Actually, the educational piece with other industries is intuitive. So, you know, you can type in a question and it'll take you to somewhere that you need to be. So I definitely think that there is a risk element. And because care is complex, you know, the risks, if things don't go right, can be catastrophic for people. Um, and so I definitely think that kind of the risk appetite, um, I think definitely plays in because, you know, as people with professional registrations like myself and clinicians, who's going to be held to account if an error is made? And I think there's always that ongoing concern that that's going to be, you know, the finger is going to be pointed at me. Which, uh, takes us back to a broader cultural issue in the NHS of, you know, a culture of learn. You know, we need to be promoting that culture of like, we will make mistakes and we'll learn to try and not do that again rather than blame. So I think that those points you make are valid. It just makes it feel like it's more difficult, uh, to do, uh, in healthcare. Or is it that it's just, you know, we have hundreds of NHS organisations all trying to do the same things but in slightly different ways. Um, and actually, you know, how do we then build those communities uh, together? So you know, these things seem to be harder and seem to take longer because we're all trying to do the same things with slightly different ways.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean it's a fascinating challenge. If you're the kind of person who enjoys a challenge, there's no better place to be, really scaling in.

Speaker A: The NHS needs more than a great product. It takes policy insight, credibility and the right rooms. The Digital Healthcare Council brings Digital first providers together with NHS leadership so members

Speaker B: can help shape the agenda and turn proven success into system wide adoption.

Speaker A: If that's your next step, look up

Speaker B: the Digital Healthcare Council. Tell us when and where you've been happiest. Georgina, I've heard about your work before and I know that a lot of what you do is lots of little things every day that are difficult, that you just keep going and you dig in and then you make something work and then you move on to the next problem. And I, I imagine that that is quite challenging. So tell us when and where you've been happiest.

Speaker C: So, yeah, you're right, I'm definitely uh, you know, making you know, projects, some small, some big. Yeah, doing them, docking that. I think what makes me feel happy is, I guess a sense of feeling valued. Ah, say, you know, professionally, you know, your work being acknowledged and I'm, I'm also not the person who likes, you know, a big song and dance, but you know, sometimes just that acknowledgement when you work in a very big complex organization, there are hundreds if not thousands of people like me in my organization making small changes or big changes every day to improve patient care, to save money, to be more productive. And of course it gets lost in a big organization. So you know, every so often the opportunity to be able to showcase like this is a real positive thing we're doing. This is how it's benefiting the organization, this is how it's improving patient care and there is a financial saving associated. So I'm always happy when there's an opportunity to kind of share that and amplify that within my organization or kind of uh, a wider. Because I'm A person who mentally likes to work in an efficient way. So, you know, we often say this, not reinvent the wheel. So if I can share my learning with another organization who are on that journey as well, to save them, not trip up on the same mistakes that I've made or vice versa, then, then I like uh, to do that. And then I guess working in a senior position in the nhs, you know, takes a lot of mental capacity. You know, it's uh, high octane most the time, you know, it's busy, there's pressures that come bottom up, top down, um, and you know, and it's exhausting and I think it's important uh, to, to check in on ourselves, be kind to ourselves and look after our well being. And I think Covid taught us a lot about the importance of kind of, of connecting and also disconnecting where appropriately. So the other part, you know, when I'm not doing those things professionally, um, yeah, I like to actually completely disconnect from technology, which is funny when I spend all day, every day, you know, running reports, playing with AI tools, etc, actually outside of work, um, you know, it very much is how can I disconnect with some of those things? As I mentioned, I grew up in the forest, so, you know, just being out with nature, you know, not having my, my, my phone on loud or even in my pocket sometimes. And again, I spend a lot of time outside of work working with young people. Um, so whether that be with Scouting in my local community or a children's charity in Tanzania, there's something about like the innocence of young people. And like, whilst we live in a very difficult world for, for all people young and older, there's just an element of the lack of, um, responsibility they sometimes have to have when they, when they're, you know, when they're young. And I just love that energy. You know, you can, you don't see them worrying about, oh, can I pay my mortgage this month and what am I going to do about this? And I haven't done that. And so there's this. For me, what makes me happy outside of work is simplicity actually, and stepping away from the noise of the world that we live in right now.

Speaker B: I love that. So just being in an analog rather than digital space for a while to recharge your battery.

Speaker C: Yeah, And I should probably not say that out loud because I'm always like, we should be reducing the amount of times we switch between analog to digital in the nhs, but outside of work. Yeah. As you said, my brain then goes into a bit More of an analog uh, place where, where I don't have to use my brain. I enjoy doing diy. You know, there's something therapeutic with, you know, painting walls or building something or upcycling something.

Speaker B: Um, an easier transformation.

Speaker C: Yeah. Not thinking about financial benefits and the complexities of patient care.

Speaker B: So yeah, I really get that. And I'm in North London near Highgate Wood and I remember in Covid walking, you know, when we were allowed to go out for our walks, going to Highgate woods and there's a sign near the entrance that talks about this ancient wood. And I just remember feeling so sort of calm and restored being in that space and um, the feeling of the seasons changing around you and just being around very old trees. It was um, a really sort of therapeutic experience. And I think it's interesting, you know, when we look at the pace of acceleration of technology, you know, in our lives and how long it takes us as humans to evolve, to change and sometimes things have changed around us so quickly and it's, it's really quite nice to be able to just disconnect as you say, from some of that and um, go back to those things that I think make us feel happy and well. And being connected into nature is definitely part of that for me as well. And the New Forest is such a beautiful place to have grown up and so I'm sure that must on a very deep level, um, be a real place for sort of calm and stability in your life as well. So tell us a bit about your current state of mind. So where are you in terms of uh, what's happening at the moment?

Speaker C: So my current state of mind I would say, I want to say chaotic, but that chaos for me feels like a bit of a lack of order. And my brain is not, doesn't have a lack of order. So I don't really know what the type I guess is busy. So I wouldn't say it's chaotic, it's busy. I like either directly kind of deliver specific kind of transformation, uh, in line with the benefits of our epr. So some of it I'm very hands on. I uh, do, I've been doing a big bit of work around pathology, demand optimization and we're working on imaging next. So you know, I do some really hands on delivery and then I obviously oversee a team of, you know, project program managers as well, plus doing all the other bits that I have to do to support kind of other uh, organizations in, you know, southeast London, etc. On their uh, EPR journeys. So I feel Like, I have lots of different things that go round in my mind quite, quite a lot. Um, and there is a lot I, um, feel like, you know, the lot this, you know, quarter four of the financial year feels very busy, um, which kind of happens every year, but it feels exceptionally busy, ah, this year. But I think my, the way, you know, one of the ways I try and kind of keep my brain in check, I guess. Um, in fact, there was a book I read many years ago which completely changed m. My life. So if there was ever a question of like, is there anything you've read that's completely changed your life? There was a book, um, you might know the book. The book's called the Chimp Paradox, uh, by a professor, uh, uh, Steve Peters. And it all talks about like, you know, the rational and irrational parts of our brain. It's brain training really. And I would describe myself when I was a radiographer as I have always had a very strong moral compass. So I am not surprised I ended up in a speak up, Guardian, uh, type role. And so, you know, when I thought that things were kind of unjust or whatever, I would be vocal and I would, would speak up. And even when I was a junior radiographer saying like, I don't think this is right, etc. And you know, there is a right and a wrong way of sometimes challenging. And I would say in my early career probably wasn't necessarily the best way to challenge is probably quite direct at times. And so reading this book, it talks about the emotional part of your brain. So the chimpanzee, um, and then the rational computer part. And I was like, oh, that makes such sense. So really understanding, you know, what is it? And they often use a term about your chimp hijacking your brain. So what are your triggers that are going to hijack your brain? And I have a few, which I now know. And so I know I'm going into this situation and I can, you know, that little chimp on my shoulder, he may, you know, step in. So I spend a lot of time, you know, in those moments where things are really busy and you can't help but feel a bit of an emotional kind of sense of being overwhelmed. Like, you know, my to do list is, you know, three pages long and I've only got X amount of hours this week. Like, how do you suppress that? And, and often I have to take that deep breath and I always go back to that framework of the Chimp Paradox. And I'm like, right, okay, Georgina, like, let's get rational here. Like you have X amount of hours, you have these things. What is critical and uh, what is the highest priority of your to do list and what can wait until tomorrow or next week. Um, so I really have to bring my, you know, my brain back to the kind of really rational part because I definitely know through my own kind of insights that, and I'm sure many people, the minute you start to get, you know, emotional emotions build up, you feel overwhelmed. My productivity just falls off a cliff. Like I'm not going to be productive in that moment. And there have been even times, times where I get to that point, I'm like, that's it, I've just got to log off. Like I, there's no point me sitting here for another two hours.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Because I just want to be productive. So I'm either need to take a break and come back to it or call it a day and I'm going to log on an hour early tomorrow when my mind is fresh and I can park, I need to go and do something, go to the gym or go for a walk, etc. I think working in a big complex organization, there's always that lots, uh, of things flying around in your brain and I think, think my advice to senior leaders is like, how do you compartmentalize some of those things and, and uh, look after yourself and know yourself well enough to say actually, you know, I need to take a break, etc. But also there's the part that you need to ask for help. You know, sometimes when I look at, you know, in the past, my things that I've been, my portfolio, I was like, this is just a new somebody else to support me on this. And you know, and, and luckily, you know, nine times out of 10 resources forthcoming and support. But it also relies on, you know, sometimes if it is in people's minds, you can't see that so openly. So how is it that you share with people when, when you're in that place that you need a bit more support? But I tried to be as pragmatic and as rational and I think if you spoke to many of my friends or colleagues, I am a very calm, um, it takes a lot these days to, to see any kind of stress from me. I'm quite a calm person by nature, but that has come through years of training my brain from reading that book probably 10 years ago. So I think that mind management piece is something that people need to invest in.

Speaker B: That's amazing. Gosh, isn't your organization so lucky to have you? You're um, extremely busy and Effective doing lots of big hard things and lots of little hard things and knowing yourself well enough to understand how you need to work so you can be as effective as possible. That's fantastic. Tell me a little bit about contacts and networks Georgina. Have they been important to you and if so have you cultivated them or have they happened by accident?

Speaker C: Yeah, networks and connections I think uh, ah are really important and if I think about, I think I've got a couple buckets I guess that I would call some of my networks. So some of it I think absolutely is intentional. I would say that I do go out and meet and seek to meet like minded people. I guess one of the most significant communities that I tapped into a few years ago um, was TEDx, ah, NHS which um, uh, you know is, is a, is a kind of TED license allocated to the nhs. And I met uh, through that people that are really you know, want to drive innovation, transformation, that blue sky thinking. The team that we're there, we're all volunteers so we're all NHS workers that do this in our spare time but obviously we put on events which have amazing uh, speakers. So you connect with the speakers but you also connect with the team and they have been absolutely kind of phenomenal like uh, network to be. I've had met some amazing people that are very good friends now and I've coached a number of speakers who still you know a very very good uh friends or have connected with certain people and because a lot of us work in the NHS there may be certain parts of our roles that then connect. Um, so uh, a speaker a few years ago who is a good friend of mine now, you know she does quite a lot in kind of the cyber security space and she works in healthcare and so you know we connect kind of not only personally but professionally now which is really lovely. So I think you know they are a really lovely community that um, I'm part of and was quite intentional in docking into that and then what falls out of that. I do sometimes think that networks are a bit of a ripple effect. Like sometimes you can go to events and you meet people and then you connect and then it kind of ripple, ripples out. There are so many people that reach out to me on the likes of LinkedIn and things like that. I love to have a conversation with you and like if I had all the hours of the day I would speak to everybody if I possibly can. But it, but it is, you know it is a challenge to try and connect uh, with everyone. But if you do see me at an event like do come up to me kind of thing, have a chat, but, you know, allocating sometimes time in the day or outside of working hours, you know, it is difficult. But I love that people are so keen to connect, uh, and learn and then I guess the other kind of network, which is kind of my, you know, my critical friends, I guess, I think, um, I did, uh, a Master's in the past and I have a small group of kind of alumni that I still meet very regularly and we tend to do lots of fun things together actually. Um, but they all have really different. Like I did a, uh, Master's which wasn't purely healthcare. So, you know, my good friends, one's a cfo, you know, one's a lawyer.

Speaker B: Ah.

Speaker C: I work in healthcare and I just love the diversity of thought that we have. So, like, if I ever have, like, oh, like, what do you think about this? Like, their insights are so invaluable. So whilst, you know, you have those professional connections or those like minded people, whether it's healthcare, you know, digital technology in health, but I also just love to get insights from people that work in different, uh, sectors or professions. Um, and they are, yeah, just hugely kind of beneficial to me in, in life to, to mull things over. You know, I did say to them they are my like, accountability pair where I'm like, you know, if I think that it's a good idea to do like another Masters or another bit of formal education, please hold me to account because, you know, it does take over your life on top of your day job. So when I'm like, oh, I quite fancy doing this, you know, Masters are like, do you remember what you said to us? I'm like, yeah, yeah, you're right. Do I have enough time for that? Note. So, um, so yes, I think, you know, two kind of really significant kind of networks, uh, to me. So one is quite professional and then the other is professional, but has that real diversity of thought which I think is really important.

Speaker B: I love that. Oh, so do you ever find yourself being the only woman in the room, Georgina?

Speaker C: Uh, um, we're lucky in lots of parts of the NHS that I think there is good diversity. Um, and you know, sometimes there's more women than there are men. But we do know that when you start looking at senior positions in the NHS and other organisations, some of those dynamics, uh, do change. You know, when I reflect in kind of more recent times in the NHS and you know, going to senior kind of meetings, I don't feel like I'm the only Woman, uh, in the room. And actually, you know, sometimes I look around and there's a set of hugely inspiring female, uh, leaders which is really important for me as I continue on m. My leadership journey. So that's always the message to every organization, to the nhs. Like, it is so important for female leaders to have people to be able to look up to. Um, and I have worked in teams where um, it has been quite, you know, if I look up, up, it is all male or male from the same kind of, kind of educational background, societal background, you know, and, and I feel like, you know, in those situations, you know, I did speak to the, the person who I work for and said like, you know, this is how I feel. Like I can't see a path of,

Speaker B: you know, people like me.

Speaker C: Yeah. In the, in this space. And you know, they really appreciated having that honest conversation with me. And as the years have gone on, I have seen a change in, in that person. And I think that's really important for people to speak up and, you know, in a safe way and you know, not to, you know, but to challenge, to say like, this is how it makes me feel when I look up and I can't see, um, see people that look like me. And of course our organization has, um, you know, recently got a female CEO again. And that, that is really, really, really important to people like me when, when we're looking up kind of at, at our board, I think, you know, sometimes, you know, in those networks, sometimes I get asked to go to different indust sectors to give a healthcare perspective. Um, you know, specifically in like the technology space. And yes, you know, last year I was asked to talk at an event and yeah, I was probably one of a handful. It was a very big event of females and to the point where, you know, it was very well looked after. Uh, and you know, there were obviously, uh, dinners and networking events and I sometimes felt like they bought another female. So I wasn't the only one. So like, and I picked up that like, like that straight away. Um, but also, you know, those industries, you know, when you look at some of the technology that isn't in healthcare, you know, I think they know. And you know, it was interesting because I did, you know, I said there's a bit of a theme here about me speaking up in challenge. And you know, I did speak to some of the, the very senior kind of board members of the organization that I was talking at the event and I said, you know, you need to do more. Like, how are you, uh, getting more, you know, you know, women into this space and you've had, you know, you, you know, I commend you for doing a, you know, women in Tech panel as one part. But actually I want to see a woman on every, like why are you having just a single panel on it? I want to see a woman on every single one of your panel. I also want to see somebody, you know, who brings diversity, whether that be ethnic diversity, whether that be to do with age, you know, disabilities, etc. I was like, we need, you need to broaden, you know, your, your horizons and you know, and we had a great debate on like what they could be doing to, to nurture new talent from universities and graduate school and all of that. Um, and they're like, oh yeah, these are all really good ideas. I was like, excellent. So I do think, yeah, there's a lot, there is a, you know, a long, a long way to go in other industries, uh, and sectors and I think it's just being really vigilant, um, and having people that feel comfortable to call it out. So like I said, you know, I'm, I'm doing it from a place of, uh, you know, a good place. I'm not, you know, trying to do anything negative. But I do think, you know, it is important because again, if I for example, wanted to go work in that organization and I sat at a panel with three men, like it's an instant turn, uh, off for me, you know, from a recruitment point of view. So just making sure that, you know, organisations really reflect the diversity of the communities that one they're serving in. The communities and the populations of the countries that they mobilize in.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely yes, no to manuals for sure. And I think being, um, also just being helpful sometimes, you know, I will do the same to point out that it is an all male panel at an event and then people say, you know, well, we just don't know any woman who could come and speak to this. And I'm like, don't worry, I know plenty. So just being, being willing to help if that is the particular problem that people don't know who to speak to, there are really easy solutions for that.

Speaker C: And also there are now, you know, I've seen like communities of people that are like female speakers or whatever. It's like, do we really live in a world that we almost need an organization whose job is to, to do that? Right, but, you know, but, but we, but that is the, the world. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And like you said, you know, there are people out there through connections. So I Think it's easy for people to go, oh, well, you know, we don't know anyone or we've looked. And I was like, well, you just need to ask a few people. Uh, yeah, and I think that, that, that will help.

Speaker B: Try a bit harder. Yeah, for sure, yeah. So, just to finish, Georgina, could you share with us the best advice that you've ever been given?

Speaker C: There was a quite. You know, there's been a few pivotal moments, I think, in my career and this interaction with my line manager when I was working in radiology was one of them. They often refer back to this because I, I don't really think I would be in the position I am today doing what I'm doing without that bit of advice that I was given. And it was that, you know, at the time I'd just done a post graduate certificate with the NHS Leadership Academy in Healthcare leadership, and there was an opportunity to, I guess, continue for another year and do a Master's. And so I'd gone to my line manager saying, and at the time there were a number of scholarships, et cetera. So, you know, it was. I was going to my line manager to ask kind of for the time to do that and she said to me, she's like, I would absolutely support you to do that if that's what you want to do, but is that what you need for your future career? And I was like, oh, that's a good question. She was like, go away, look at NHS jobs website. Look up what your dream job is, which has changed since then, but, you know, a job that you would be curious about in the future, um, and have a look at what the NHS job, like, the JD says, um, about it. And interestingly, kind of unanimously, what kept popping up was, uh, a Masters in Business. So I was like, okay, that's interesting.

Speaker B: Ah.

Speaker C: So I go back and I said to her, actually it says it's an mba. Um, and she was like, yeah. So, you know, is this the right thing? And I remember I didn't proceed immediately to do this, that, that leadership Masters, and it. Because I needed to reflect on that advice that she was giving me because, you know, giving up like one, it's a place that somebody else might want another time it takes to do these things, either as part of your day job or in addition. So I really came away and reflected and I spoke to a few other people, um, uh, other managers. You know, one was like, oh, it's too early in your career, in your career to do an mba, this, that. And the other, um, and Then lo and behold, I just had happened to them randomly get an email from a university provider that I did my, my post grad cert with that says, oh, you can use those points towards an mba. And so I feel like fate played its card there. But I think without that challenge from my line manager, I think I would have just proceeded. And actually how I use my business masters in the everyday work that I do now, I don't think I'd be where I am if I hadn't had that educational insight that then I've managed to transform, uh, uh, into kind of experience and through what I do. So that was the best bit of, kind of one of the bits of career advice. The other one was from a previous line manager who was at the time our chief nurse. And you know, I was doing, you know, we have annual appraisals and we're talking about career progression. And she turned around to me and she's like, Georgina, she's like, you've still got 30 years left of your NHS career. And I was like, oh, gosh, that sounds like a really long time. Uh, and so what she said to me, she was like, don't be chasing a director job, like, because when you get to that position, you know, there's responsibilities, uh, there's pressures, all of that, you know, and she's like, you will get, you, you will absolutely get there one day if that's what you want to do. But she says, take your time because there's nothing worse than getting into a really senior position really quickly and then being stuck there for 30 years maybe, um, because it's a long, it's a long slog, but also, you know, to build your credibility over time. She was like, don't be afraid to sidestep roles, you know, just take your time. And that is a piece of advice that I share all the time with people that come to me for career, uh, uh, conversations, etc. And I've really resonated with me, um, I could move around organizations, you know, I'm not driven by or motivated by what my job title says. I'm driven by the impact that I can make. And therefore I think that was just so, yeah, so valuable because I think it would be a difficult place to sit for a long. And we see lots of people do that and you know, burnout is real in the NHS in lots of different sectors. And I've already mentioned, um, kind of well being, which then goes on to the kind of final bit of advice that I've been given. But also give. Um, and really that is about showing yourself kindness. Um, we all have lives inside work, outside of work, and I feel, you know, and I'm definitely that person. I put a lot of pressure on myself. I'm always saying yes to things when actually I can't do. You know, I can't. I don't have the time for that. Whatever. So every so often I think it's just important to, uh, just really reflect and just be kind to ourselves. And if that is spending a whole day at the weekend watching trash on Netflix, that is okay. Or, you know, not make going home, racing home to cook a healthy dinner and getting a takeaway in that moment like that, that is, uh, kind of what you need, so to really make sure that you've kind of shown yourself that kindness.

Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, thank you so much, Georgina. Um, it has been so lovely chatting to you, hearing about your career, your motivation and your plans. Ah. So thank you so much for being so honest and sharing with us. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for listening to the Women and Health tech show.

Speaker A: If this sparks ideas hit follow, leave

Speaker B: a quick review and send the episode to a founder or operator who'd benefit. I'm Catherine Davies. Until next time.