Changing health outcomes through the Holly Health app, with Grace Gimson

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome to season five of the Women in Health Tech Show. Real stories, hard won lessons and practical advice for women building better healthcare using technology. I'm your host, Catherine Davies. Let's dive in. My guest today is Grace Gimson, who is the founder and CEO of Holly Health, uh, a fully digital yet compassionate health coaching service which helps people to feel physically and mentally better. Having supported over 70,000 NHS patients so far, Grace's career spans operations, product and leadership, including roles at Microsoft, Deliveroo and um, Scape, which was acquired by Facebook. From growing up in a family of engineers, Grace knew the power of technology and set her sights on combining her passions of psychology and accessible technology to create something impactful for the population. In 2020, Grace partnered with a team of psychology and product experts to bring science based personalised health coaching to the public through Holly Health. She has since been enrolled as an NHS Innovation Accelerator Fellow and has formed partnerships at, uh, NHS ICS Integrated Care System Scale. Welcome Grace. Thank you so much for joining me today. Where are you joining us from?

Speaker A: Thanks for having me. Um, I'm down in very cloudy today. Wales, down in Pembrokeshire.

Speaker B: How lovely. And a lovely part of the world.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's beautiful.

Speaker B: So let's start with your life and career briefly, then just to kick off. So tell us how you've ended up doing what you're doing today.

Speaker A: Yeah, so, um, I'll start from the beginning. Um, grew up in Bristol, loved things like psychology, being active. Um, had lots of experiences, early experiences in life with technology because my dad was developing and researching at Hewlett Packard and bringing home the first ever versions of smartphones and tablets and, and smart, um, whiteboards and things like that. So I interacted with all of these things and thought that's going to really change how we live in the future. And I wanted to do something with that. I knew I wanted to keep my options quite open so I didn't want to just kind of join a specific career and be stuck on a route. Um, and I saw again both my parents in roles where they didn't have a lot of control over ways of working, workload, future opportunities. So I kind of thought I wanted to create my own business in the future. So I went down the business route. Um, studied business at Birmingham, um, um, landed in with a big crowd of amazing medics and got quite ingrained in kind of understanding how our medical system currently works from that kind of student perspective. Then started working in the London startup scene. So that was back in 2011. Um, I had a year working At Microsoft as part of my degree in the team that actually engaged with startups and I saw how exciting it is to create something from scratch, especially when it's super scalable and you can really have a large scale impact. So yeah, that's kind of where I started. And then beyond that I really had a passion for health and wellbeing and um, saw a lot of people who potentially struggled when I couldn't really tell um, what was causing say a mental struggle when it looked like somebody had quite similar circumstances but potentially hadn't cracked out of their own head. And I thought actually what causes that? How do we improve that? And I went through various processes for myself and um, learned a lot about human psychology and behavior change and eventually thought actually these things are very learnable and technology can really help with some of these kind of motivation changes, behavior changes. Um, so that kind of started to create an idea in my head. Um, but I continued on with my career where I kind of learned how to build companies, build products, take things from zero to one, ah, and really go down the kind of business operations route.

Speaker B: Very good. So you weren't tempted then to spend too long in big corporates, kind of following your parents path and then going into one of these big companies like Microsoft. That didn't appeal?

Speaker A: No it didn't. So I had a year there, extended my time a little bit. A lot of the interns in my year did go back to join as graduates, but I just wanted to learn from lots of different environments. So actually my first job after uni was um, with Aldi the supermarket as a kind of general area manager, which was an amazing learning experience for kind of doing all elements of business management and team leadership. They essentially gave you the keys to a bunch of stores as a kind of new, new person in your career and chucked you in the deep end. So that was a really good learning experience. And after that is when I really went into tech companies and tech roles and scale ups to learn how to really build the products.

Speaker B: Yeah. So tell us about Holly then. How did Holly Health come to be? What's the story behind that?

Speaker A: Yeah, so after spending a few years in um, tech startups I got to grips with where kind of consumer technology was at. What were the potentials and possibilities. Uh, got to know a lot more about the NHS and the struggles, saw lots of people challenged with chronic conditions and the mental health overlaps that often come with chronic conditions. And so all these kind of problems were presenting themselves to me and I saw some solutions in the form of technology and I wanted to kind of combine the two. So went through a process of training as a health and wellbeing coach, playing around with technology to see if I could create kind of a system that would help people who were living with chronic conditions and mental health challenges. And had an exit with a previous startup which was acquired by Facebook, which I wasn't a founder, but I was part of the early team. Um, so that was an interesting process but that left me with a little bit of time, funding, resources to actually get going on the first version of Holly Health. Um, and it essentially started as a WhatsApp coach. So literally live inside WhatsApp and it would help people to work out how they're doing with their mental and physical health and it would set them up with appropriate habits, nudge them and be really kind and compassionate with the nudges and help people track how they were doing. That's how it started. And we're essentially doing exactly the same thing, but in a much more, um, fleshed out service and product which supports people with all kinds of different long term conditions and risk factors and behavioral health challenges. Um, and we've now scaled that up across lots of different NHS partnerships. We partnered with about 200 um, or more GP practices and supported 70,000 members of the public. And we're now moving on to developing the product to different areas as well.

Speaker B: Amazing. And so has that been a straightforward linear journey?

Speaker A: Um, not linear. I would say it's definitely been, um, I'd say it's been slower and more gradual than we would have expected. But I think this is always the case in the NHS and we were very keen to make a difference and have an impact on people that really needed the support. So we were not interested at all in the kind of health optimizer market and the kind of high end wearables side. We really wanted to get personalized coaching to people that cannot typically go and buy these really expensive services and they cannot go and get a personal trainer or even a therapist. So we were very keen to work in the nhs. That means that, uh, it took us probably many more years than we wanted it to get to this kind of 70,000 user base. However, it has been a really fun journey and it's actually been nice to go at a gradual pace because we've been able to invest a lot more time and energy into doing the product really well, co designing it with members of the public. We've secured various different grants from the government, um, to focus on specific condition areas like hypertension, relationship with food challenges, multimorbidity, um, um, having multiple long term conditions and that's really strengthened the product.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's really interesting that a lot of the chronic conditions that you've mentioned, they're psychological problems disguised as physical problems, or they have components of both, don't they? So it's really interesting that you've been able to help people focus on the psychology and understanding, um, and nudging them to make the right decisions. So how did you find your first customers?

Speaker A: Well, very early on we actually launched to members of the public, um, just to get initial user base feedback, learnings, insights. And then, um, we went knocking on the doors of clinical leaders inside the NHS that we thought had an interest in lifestyle approaches. And we then deployed with a few single GP practices, um, where in each practice we would support, say, 300 to 500 patients. And that allowed us to build up, um, initial data sets of what's the impact, how much does exercise go up, um, how much, um, weight do people lose, even though weight isn't the core outcome that we're measuring, um, how does mental well being change and what's the perception, uh, and uptake and all of those things. And with those data sets, we were able to go knocking on the doors of primary care networks, which are clusters of GP practices. Um, and that's where really the first commissioning started happening. Um, so that was, um, about three years ago and since then we've scaled up and now, um, we're being commissioned in icss, um, just at the beginning of that journey. So, um, what we'd like to see is much more regional uptake and even national uptake eventually. And things are moving in that direction, but, um, it may take a while.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's just the nature of, um, that bit of the ecosystem, isn't it? And are you still in touch with your medic friends from Birmingham? Did they support your Holly Health?

Speaker A: Yeah, um, still very close with them all. We catch up really regularly. And, yes, it's been really, really cool to see them all go into different specialisms and areas. A number of them are gps, so some of them have been deploying Holly Health themselves to their patients, which is really, really cool.

Speaker B: Amazing. The power of networks. We'll come back to that later.

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely.

Speaker B: So tell us about when and where you've been happiest. Grace.

Speaker A: I'd love to say it's a work, um, a work thing, but actually all of my happiest moments are typically outside doing something physical. Um, I think one moment really sticks out to me, which was the first time that I completed an Olympic distance triathlon which isn't a ridiculous feat. The ridiculous ones are things like Ironman distance. But to just get round an Olympic distance, feel that I really enjoyed it and just say to myself I'm so lucky to be able to do this kind of thing, have the time to kind of go and train, have the energy, um, and just the physical ability. Yeah. And also to have work that kind of allows me to do some sort of training at the same time.

Speaker B: Just tell us what an Olympic distance triathlon is. For the non specialists and triathlons amongst

Speaker A: us there is typically 1.5k swimming, 40k cycle and 10k run.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: I mean each of those individually is very achievable and that you're trying to do it all fairly quickly. But yeah, I think it's just being able to go and do anything physical that um, where I'm learning and developing and then other things are always climbing up to the top of a mountain or walking a really long distance. I walked 100km from London to Brighton once and that was probably one of the hardest things I've ever done. Oh gosh.

Speaker B: Wow. Yes, it's really interesting isn't it the impact that physical exertion and physical exercise has on our mental well being. Is there evidence on the relationship between those things that you've come across?

Speaker A: Yeah, well huge amounts of evidence that look at different areas and uh, I'd say for me, um, I haven't dug into the specific evidence of this factor but I think it's the realization that you can do whatever you put your mind to and I think most of the studies around exercise are looking at endorphins and quite kind of immediate responses and kind of mental well being measures um, quite soon after. Whereas I think what I feel is that ah, if I can try something, finish it, feel that sense of accomplishment that always drives me forward and upwards to the next thing. Yeah, I think we can all learn from that approach.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely, I love that. Um, and I think if you can keep doing that as you get older as well, like me, it ah, keeps you feeling extremely youthful. You know speaking from personal experience with my hobbies, just feeling that you can always set yourself a new challenge and try your hardest to meet it is a very kind of rejuvenating feeling to have as well.

Speaker A: Definitely

Speaker B: scaling in. The NHS needs more than a great product. It takes policy, insight, credibility and um, the right rooms. The Digital Healthcare Council brings Digital first providers together with NHS leaders So members can help shape the agenda and turn proven success into system wide adoption. If that's your next step, uh, look up the Digital Healthcare Council. You wanted to put your time and energy into Holly Health because you were interested in psychology and because you wanted to do impactful work. How did you decide that that was the right path to follow? Particularly knowing probably that, you know, doing business with the NHS can be very slow and the NHS isn't a particularly forward thinking, um, organization whenever it comes to digital health. It's extremely innovative when it comes to thinking about new treatments and new cures and things like that. But on the tech side people often say it's a bit behind other bits of the economy. So why did you decide to really focus on that area?

Speaker A: There's definitely an element of naivety in this, to focus um, on the nhs. Having not specifically worked or sold within the NHS myself, um, prior to founding Holly Health. So I think I went in with uh, a level of naivety thinking all of the strategy documents are pointing in this direction. It's such a huge clear problem that's under addressed, um, to support all the millions of people that are struggling with day to day health. And um, yeah, that, that naivety kind of meant that I went in thinking, yeah, but if we solve the problem well enough and we do it affordably and we prove it and we build up the data sets and we show, look, this is easy to do, you can just do this on a larger scale that, that would potentially be, be the way to, to get kind of rapid uptake or at least um, reasonably um, paced uptake. Obviously the more that I learn about the NHS environment, the more I understand that it's extremely politically driven. The policy documents don't necessarily, or the strategy documents don't necessarily lead to direct action. And um, it can take a very, very long time for the things that look obvious to actually be changed. And especially from a technology perspective. So, um, definitely there have been a lot of learnings. But the thing that still drives me and drove me at the beginning to work in this space is because myself and the team, we really get out of bed every day because we can see the impact it's having with real people. And these are real people that are struggling and their life is genuinely turned around in a lot of cases when they can crack the kind of mental challenges that ah, are blocking them and get into a consistent routine and start building up small, small things that are achievable, whether that's a nutrition change or exercise change or a uh, small change to their sleep and then their. Their whole life can change in a really positive way and then we can see that in the outcomes data. So I think knowing that we're having an impact in such an important area where people genuinely have no support a lot of the time, that's the thing that's really driving us. And we know there still is a massive opportunity, whether that's in the NHS and in some of our wider work, beyond the NHS as well. It's just such a clear problem with a clear solution.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it's hard to imagine something more impactful that you could get from work than changing people's lives for the better. So, yeah, I can say, you know, that that's so appealing that I think that's why lots of us work in health, because we want to do something that can really make a difference. And I think the other interesting thing about what you've been saying is that, uh, although it is slow and the uptake of technology lags behind other areas, your progression from working with some GP practices to working from PCNs and, um, now starting to work with ICSS, that is the path of success through the NHS. And supporting so many people, you are being successful, um, even though it's slow and although you have some things kind of making it more difficult. So kudos to you. That's really, really amazing. And the other thing that I really, really love about the work that you do is I really believe in the power of small changes made consistently. And sometimes I think when you look at the NHS or you look at the state of the world, it can feel like the scale of the problems are so overwhelming that it's just not possible to solve them. Um, and trying to get everyone ready for that big push that suddenly shifts the dial and solves problems just seems completely impossible and requires so much effort. So we sort of get stuck in that space of feeling like the effort required to move forward is so significant that we can't do anything at all. But what you're saying is you can really have, um, a very significant impact on the individual and then probably by extension, the people around them by just making small changes consistently. And so tell us a little bit more about that. Like, how do you. How many changes do people need to make? What sorts of changes do they need to make to see an impact in their lives? Yeah.

Speaker A: So it doesn't even really matter which changes someone makes at the beginning. It's all about demonstrating to themselves that they can do anything, that they start and then build up in a consistent way and it's really um, it's really different from, from the approaches that in the last few decades we were trained to take which is really just restrictive diets and kind of short term um, exercise regimes and quick fixes and naturally we kind of gravitate towards those quicker approaches because it feels like then we're going to get to the finish line sooner. Um, um, but what um, tons and tons of research and, and science over the, the decades and longer shows is that if you do something that's too intense that you can't sustain and it doesn't form an automatic behavior, it is not going to be sustainable. And that's why the vast majority of diets don't result in long term um, change and people unfortunately end up back where they started. So it's very interesting to see things like the GLP1 medication introductions which are ah, going to be beneficial for a portion of people. Absolutely. But I do worry about the kind of extension of the diet approach, kind of more of a short term um, approach and what's going to happen over the long term. And it just makes it even more essential to have evidence based on behaviour change techniques alongside afterwards and ideally for the rest of people's lives. And we think oh well if it's all about making small, tiny changes to walking more or going to bed earlier or eating an extra portion of fruit or veg per day, that sounds easy, why can't people just do that? That's kind of a common thought, um, that um, the public has but it's very, very difficult to do things in a small way. So actually it's really important to provide people with the right type of infrastructure. And that's what we do with, with Holly Health, it's providing them with a really small goal, making sure that they stick to the small approach and track that that is working and that it is impacting their mental well being at the same time and then allow them the kind of expansion beyond that point. We have a little phrase that we use now uh, which is the Holly Health three C's um, and it starts with compassion and being a little bit more kind to yourself that you don't need to do everything at once and then it's confidence and helping people to build up their own confidence in their abilities and then it's the change that comes afterwards. Um, so that's where we really see the things like blood pressure reductions and kind of long term symptom improvements and mental wellbeing improvements.

Speaker B: And do you think if people can get to that sort of change element of the three Cs that can have a significant impact on the NHS and the challenges that it's facing. So beyond, you know, people um, feeling better in themselves mentally and physically, are there some wider system level impacts that you could see would happen from the work that you're doing at the moment?

Speaker A: Absolutely. So this is essential now. It's not just for health and wellbeing of the population, it's for alleviating pressures on the nhs. So one of the biggest statistics that we see in our primary care work is reduction of GP appointments because people are self managing so many more elements of their health and they're realising, actually, I can problem solve this thing. I don't necessarily need to see the GP every time. And um, we know that the same applies to hospital appointments and A and E attendances and ability to leave hospital sooner. It's all about taking more of those kind of elements onto, um, yourself, but in a safe and sustainable way. And people do need the support to make that happen. They can't just generally do it on their own.

Speaker B: Yeah, so that sounds very much like, um, the sort of thing that the NHS really does need to be doing in order to sort of find a way through the current um, challenges that it's facing. So are you only focused on the NHS or, um, does Holly Health also offer services more broadly outside the nhs?

Speaker A: Yeah, we are expanding outside the NHS as well. Um, we have just completed the build of the Holly Health white label service which we're very excited about. Um, so this is the ability to put our coaching features inside other people's apps, other organizations, apps. And we're talking with multiple um, organizations around the world. We have our first partner confirmed, which we're very excited about.

Speaker B: Congratulations. Thank you.

Speaker A: Hopefully, um, we'll be able to announce them soon. Um, and that takes us, um, outside of the nhs, into a broader, um, kind of health improvement space. We're still focused on getting to people that really need the support. And so there are multiple industries, um, where that applies, whether that's kind of mental health therapy or public health and leisure centres, um, remote monitoring internationally and other services like that, um, where they have large populations to improve their health and wellbeing.

Speaker B: So it's essentially where people need to sort of be checking in with themselves to make a plan for what they want to be doing and then to keep themselves on track, essentially. That's the clinical common denominator.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And there are lots of um, providers. So for example, insurance companies that have been thinking about where do they go next for health improvement? How far do they want to go? Because their claims costs, for example, are increasing significantly across both acute conditions and chronic conditions when they're covered. And it's becoming more of a responsibility for organisations like, like that to offer the support, really, to reduce the cost of their claims. Um, ultimately, um, yeah, there are lots of increasing opportunities.

Speaker B: Yeah, very interesting. Okay, so, um, talk to me a little bit about, um, contacts and networks. Um, you mentioned that you really enjoyed hanging out with the medics at university, um, and then also spending time doing, um, kind of short periods of work at, uh, different types of organizations. So have you cultivated networks in those things as you've gone along? Have your networks been important to you and have they helped you?

Speaker A: Yeah, hugely. Uh, lots of different networks that have been really impactful. Some people say it's all about having the right connections to then break into deals or kind of really change the trajectory of your business. And I'd say networks haven't necessarily been our silver bullet, but they have been essential for supporting us along the way in lots of different areas. Uh, interestingly, in the early stages of Holly Health, I had a handful of people that I really respected and experienced people in health care that ah, had told me that what we're trying to do will never work. Um, and interestingly, years later, a few of those people have actually come back and said congratulations on the progress and asked us for advice. I'm always a little bit careful to listen, absorb every learning that I can and where it's potentially more critical, uh, not to let it hamper motivation, but where networks and contacts have been extremely important, um, particularly things like the NHS Innovation Accelerator that we're part of. We're in our third year now, um, Digital Healthcare Council. So the networks that allow us to build close relationships with peers, other innovators, people who are learning quickly in the nhs, um, and where we can share opportunities and learnings with each other. And it's also a way for us to stand out in the market as well. The NHS now is becoming probably even more about who you know, to kind of get into the right opportunities. So it's always going to be essential to keep building those connections.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think being able to be introduced to someone can spark a conversation and then whether or not that goes somewhere will depend on the need and, uh, that person's area and the quality of the offer. But certainly, um, just sparking that initial conversation, having someone to help with that, I've seen that that could be very Useful.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So you live in Wales, Grace. And how does that, so how do you do your networking? Do you do it online? Do you have times when you go to um, places where there are kind of um, more people? Not that there aren't innovators in Wales, but there's probably a greater concentration in some other places like London. How do you manage your time from that point of view?

Speaker A: It's all about just being sensible with planning and timing. So I'll spend big chunks of time in London and Birmingham and other places um, around events and meetings and yeah, I tend to then be very heavy on meetings for a few weeks at a time and then when we're just making stuff happen and um, working on the product and improving all the other elements of the business, we can really all do that remotely. And actually I'm finding more and more that people that I might want to meet in person, they might actually prefer a zoom call. Anyway, um, and we, we founded the company right in the beginnings of COVID um, in 2020. So right from the beginning it was, it was a remote first uh, business and it's one of the elements that, that just improves my wellbeing and the rest of the team's well being so that we, we can work at the times that, that make the most sense for us. But yeah, it's definitely key to be at the right events and conferences, pre planned meetings with, with the people that are key and also just spend multiple hours with the people that you really want to get to know.

Speaker B: And so for people who don't like networking and find it difficult and challenging, what advice would you give them to do it in a way that is likely to work?

Speaker A: It's kind of about going to events and knowing that there's going to be something in there that you're really looking forward to and that you're going to enjoy. So if you're going to a conference making sure that you've already pre planned some of the people that you want to meet with maybe so it's less of approaching people randomly and actually you've got some meetings to go and do at ah, a specific time, attending events with people that you already know potentially. So if you're part of a peer network, um, something like the NHS Innovation Accelerator is amazing for knowing who else is going to be somewhere. So you've almost got some friends with you um, as you attend and then you can kind of lean on their networks as well when you're at an event because they can quickly introduce you and just seeing it all as a fun opportunity to go and meet humans. It's not just about sales pitches, it's about getting to know real people. What interests them, why are they there, what are they trying to achieve in their lives, life and work? Um, and then it gets a little bit more interesting.

Speaker B: Yeah. So not like, feeling too much pressure on yourself, like to actually think about other people who you're going to be networking with and have a bit of curiosity about them, which takes the pressure off a little bit.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I think health is, um, ah, a bit more diverse from a gender perspective in some ways than, um, other bits of the economy. But still, sometimes you get these, um, parts of it that are very male dominated. Um. Do you ever find yourself being the only woman in the room, Grace, or is that an unusual occurrence for you?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think, like you say, in the nhs, um, we have a lot more women leaders, um, which is a really, really nice change from the, the broader tech industry. Um, so we work with lots and lots of clinical directors that are women and, um, I think very often, naturally we're working with women who are very keen on focusing on mental health and behavioural health and lifestyle health. So, yeah, in the NHS and healthcare, I think it's a lot more of an even split. I think prior to Holly Health, um, definitely there were times where I was the only woman in the room and not in all companies. In a, I'd say a minority of companies, sometimes it was very hard to get a word in, um, and to feel listened to. Um, but I think for me personally, I found that learning about the data, uh, on what kind of causes, those challenges is really helpful. So, um, early in my career there was books like Lean in from Charles, um, Sandberg, um, and that was a really, really good eye opener into what she'd experienced. And, um, and there was a lot that resonated and she kind of fills it out with data. Why do women wait until they feel like they've got 100% of the qualifications for a role, whereas can go out with 50 or 60%? And, um, also, more recently, a book called Invisible Women.

Speaker B: Yeah. Caroline Criado Perez. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. So I think learning why, why things have operated how they have is super interesting and then it gives you more ability to know what actions you can take when you are in that situation, um, where you're potentially the only woman in the room. Yeah, yeah, it's definitely much better. Better in health care than other places.

Speaker B: Yes. And what about the investment space? Have you thought about funding and having conversations with investors? And has that been, I think more male dominated space?

Speaker A: Yeah, this is a really interesting one and it's, it's one that when I have some, some time at some point in my life I, I'd love to see if I can support this environment to evolve a bit more. But yeah, early, early in Holly Health, because I'd worked with VC investors in previous companies, I really thought we'd probably go down the VC investment route. Yeah, so we did, we spoke with a lot of investors and I realized actually how challenging it is for female founders and learned a lot again about the data. So at uh, the moment I think it's 1.8% of VC funds uh, in the UK goes to fully female founded teams. I think the stat is somewhere around 15% for mixed teams. Yeah. So the vast majority of the investment goes to fully male teams. How I kind of notice that coming through was because we were women, um, very often we would be given the um, women in the VC team to kind of talk to us in the early stages and it didn't matter how much they believed in the idea or the concept, they would not be the key decision makers on the board so that they'd always be the more junior team members. And I think the VC industry now is um, they're definitely hiring a lot more women but they're just not putting them into the most senior roles.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So the decision making teams are um, almost fully male. I think this is still the case in most VC firms. So yeah, I think it's definitely more challenging. There's a lot of subconscious bias that's hard to put your finger on but it does come through in the data and I'm actually very thankful that we, we didn't raise VC funds. We have an awesome set of angel investors, we've raised a lot of government grant funding and um, we're almost at profitability now. So um, yeah, that's the direction we want to go in to kind of have that organic growth and keep being sustainable.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think um, the model that VC investors are looking for doesn't always read across that well to businesses that do partner with the nhs. Because you talked a little bit about the pace and so on, you probably dodged a bullet um, whenever you decided to go down the path that you did. So um, well done for that. So I wonder if we could finish up with you sharing the best piece of advice that you've been given.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I don't think there's anything extremely intelligent. I'd say there's probably two simple Bits of advice that I've taken at some point and that I apply quite regularly. I think one is when stressed, just to remember that we're a block of rock that's kind of spinning around through space and how random and kind of insignificant it really is. And I think that's great when day to day stresses or really specific details are kind of on your mind, really to get a perspective on things. Yeah, it's kind of just thinking, look, does it really matter in the grand scheme of things? And just kind of focusing on what you can do as the bigger picture. And then I think when, when I'm planning forwards, I've had some advice at some point that, um, life is fully in your control. It's what you make it. So I'm constantly thinking, like, what do I want to do that's going to make my life better? Like, almost selfishly, like, what, what new skills do I want to learn? What new things, fitness areas do I want to go into? How, uh, do I want to spend my time at work more deliberately? And I like to encourage others to try and craft their own kind of future in a similar way when they can.

Speaker B: I love that. Oh, thank you so much. So if people would like to get in touch with you, Grace, uh, what's the best way for them to do that?

Speaker A: Yeah, so happy to be contacted on LinkedIn. Um, and we'll put the link, uh, in the details, I think. And you can also reach out through, through the Holly Health website as well.

Speaker B: Thank you so much. I know that you do try to get back to all your messages, don't you? But it's not always possible given how busy you are. But that's kind of you to, um, say that people can reach out on LinkedIn.

Speaker A: Yeah, of course.

Speaker B: So thank you so much for joining us. It's been an absolute pleasure hearing all about you and I really look forward to continuing to watch, uh, Holly's success trajectory. Thanks, Grace.

Speaker A: Thanks so much, Katherine.

Speaker B: Thanks for listening to the Women in Health tech show. If this sparked ideas, hit follow, leave a quick review and send the episode to a founder or operator who'd benefit. I'm Catherine Davies. Until next time.