What AI Can (and Can't) Do for Learning with Destery Hildenbrand

Speaker A: Keep that human piece in there by learning the terminology of the thing you want to do. Keep it in there so that you, you can speak to it. I think that you want to speak to it not only to the AI so that it gives you the right answers, but speak to it as though you could have a conversation with a colleague so that they too could understand what it is. And if you can have those kinds of conversations, um, you can really start accelerating the types of things that you create and in these really cool tools that we have.

Speaker B: Good morning, good evening, good afternoon, wherever you are and wherever you're watching from. My name is Matt Pearce, host of the Visual Lounge. We are at ATV International and we are having a live podcasting session. So we're going to be talking with a guest today, and we're gonna be talking about using images and visual video in the workplace, but how he's using it in instructional content. And we're also probably dive into that world of AI because guess what, everybody, it is here. It is working and it is not working. And it's, it's the one place that we need to be continually thinking about. Because you know what, As I heard someone say that there's lots of things happening, but no one knows really what anyone's doing with it. So, uh, we want to welcome our guests. We want to welcome Destry Hildebrand. Destry, welcome to the Visual Lounge.

Speaker A: Thank you so much for finally having me. I'm super excited to be here.

Speaker B: Finally having you. Yes, no, so grateful that you're here. So, uh, Destre, tell us a little bit about yourself and kind of the, your work and what you do.

Speaker A: Sure. So my name is Destre Hildenbrand. I have been in our industry now for about 20 years and, and I have focused mainly on the technology side. Right. So I've always been, uh, building the E learnings, I've been creating the websites, I've been editing the videos. And, uh, more recently in the past 10 years or so, I've done the immersive technology stuff. So virtual reality, augmented reality. So I love the technology. And then my main, like, passion and goal is to figure out where the technology intersects with that learning piece. So I'm a traditionally trained instructional designer. Right. That's what I went to school for. So being able to meld those all together, that's what I've been doing now for longer, uh, than I care to admit. Most days.

Speaker B: Well, you did tell us, uh, at least 20 years. I know.

Speaker A: Not, not the exact number because then

Speaker B: I just feel old yeah, so I mean I think you probably have seen a lot of shifts in kind of the technology. You know, I think we often see in our industry things come and go. Uh, what would you say kind of current state of affairs, Image, video, uh, where are we at in usage right now across the industry?

Speaker A: Yeah, you know, it's actually a really cool time to be doing any kind of multimedia work. Right. Because AI as I uh, know you put that on the end, but we'll kick off with it. AI has really kind of opened some doors, uh, although there are a lot of things that you have to keep in mind. Right. But it's opened a lot of doors for everybody to be able to create an infographic that is, you know, really decent and looks really good. Uh, it's given us an opportunity to create some images or even just take existing images and all alter them in a way that it no longer always looks weird. Right. So uh, even with video, um, I've seen such a huge, uh, improvement in just the quality of video, even in those bite sized chunks. So I think it's a really cool time to be here because there's so much opportunity and potential. Uh, and we're still working towards it. We're not quite there yet, but I think that um, in small doses it works out really, really well. And when you have like a workflow that you're using, you know, Camtasia or Adobe or whatever it might be, right. For whatever type of medium you're working in, um, it really helps speed up your workflow. And as we all know, time is the resource we all need more of.

Speaker B: So, so from your experience, I mean there's obviously lots going on and I like, and I like that you added that we're not quite there yet because I think that's a reality we're facing. There's a lot changing really quickly. But from your experience, do you feel like are we racing towards more time or are we racing towards doing more?

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a really good question. I feel like right now we're sort of chasing more is what it feels like to me. And that uh, you know, just maybe that's just what I do on a regular basis. Those are the conversations I'm having. But I think that I like to think that the goal is more time. And one of the big things, especially with AI, is that all right, so it's going to start freeing us up to do some additional things, that time factor. Right. So how do we best prepare ourselves and our learners so that they can still support they can still be functional. When AI gives, uh, us that more time, what do we do with that more time if we're not sinking it into, I don't know, however many minutes per minute of video that we're putting together. Right. So I think that's probably the biggest question that I have right now. Uh, it's helping me do all my stuff. But then how do I make sure that I'm doing it, My team's doing it. Right. My organization is doing it. So how do we, how do we make sure we're preparing? Because we're super close to it. Just doing a lot of stuff really, really well. When we do get there that it's gonna. We're gonna all of a sudden be like, I. I don't know, it feels like we're wasting time or we're wasting our resource now. So we almost have to, like, preemptively get there a little bit. Otherwise, that's when things go not so great.

Speaker B: So I would imagine someone's gonna listen to what you just said and say, oh, no. And, you know, there's the, the doom, and there's the doom and gloom. And we hear a lot, like, all the jobs that are going to be lost and all the displacement, all the things. So for you and no, it's going to change. Right. But current state, how are you choosing or doing, uh, what are you doing to keep human in the process, in the loop of the things that you're creating when AI is doing some of the work and it is getting better. Like, I know just context, you. And I just looked at an infographic that I created using AI and had I not told you it was AI, you may not have been able to tell.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I'm curious about that human connection.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I think the biggest piece here is that it's going to free the human to do, uh, uh, more like cooler things. Right. Like, I can't even. I can't even count how many times I've started a project with a vision in my head that became so unrealistic so fast because I didn't have the time, the resources or the talent to really do it. So now I can take all of those resources. And the part that always bogs me down personally is how do I get started? Like, where do we build that foundation? Well, I can throw all of that into the AI sandbox, and like 60% of it then gets sort of, like, functionally laid out, and then I can really focus my efforts on that, that last, you know, maybe 40% or 30% so that I can really do the cool things that I'm envisioning in head. So the way I would love to see this play out, right, is that, um, hey, we're going to get all the stuff, you know, get all the, the, the hard part, like the, the, the part that takes the longest out of the way. And then let's really focus in on how can I make this the most, uh, the, the neatest, the, the most functional, the most, um, the best learning experience that I can or the best entertainment experience that I can. Right. Depending on what it is that your goals are. So that's where I, and that's why I kind of go back to we. We, as in the collective leadership of organizations has to start planning for that now. Like, I talked to so many organizations that are like, we have a three to five year plan. And I'm like, that's too many years. That's way too many years.

Speaker B: Too many minutes, days and seconds.

Speaker A: You need to have a six month plan at most, right? You really have to start making these functional changes because then that's where we start to lose people because we're like, we don't know what to do with you. And you now feel like overhead, right now you feel like something I have to, I have to cut because there's, there's not, there's nothing for you to do that I can think of in this moment. So I think we need to prep for that a little bit more. And then our, our development teams are going to have that much more flexibility and opportunity to really improve the product. You know, in a, in a perfect world, improve the product that we're delivering versus, you know, just letting AI take over everything. That's not the answer either.

Speaker B: Well, a couple of things I want to kind of come back to. One of the things you said, you're like, oh, you wanted to help you finish it. I think I want it. Or you want it to start. I want it to help me finish. Like, it's like, oh, I started this and now I was just sitting there. Yeah, okay, let me finish it. The other thing you just said, I think is really interesting. Um, and uh, the keynote that we heard this morning, he's a restaurateur, right. Talking about hospitality. But this idea and I'm probably have just lost it. Uh, but yeah, you talked about the, the product.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. And so I'm curious though, like, we all make lots of products. I want to talk about outcomes and what you think. So like a product would be, you delivered a training but like, do you think AI is going to allow us to get better outcomes? And let me give you an example to make that really clear. Let's say, uh, you're, you're in a restaurant or you're just, you're, you got a family, you made a meal, right? The product is the meal, whatever that is, pizza or spaghetti or whatever you like. Right. But the outcome is other things. It's nutrition, it's love, it's, you know, all the things that come with that kind of that space. Right. Depending on what your intent was. So do you think AI, are we, are we moving towards just more product or do you think it's going to allow us to actually get to better, more kind of robust outcomes?

Speaker A: Yeah, I, again, I think I would love to see that as the, as the thing. Right. I think that that's.

Speaker B: Whether we're doing that or not is like.

Speaker A: Exactly. But I think that that is a really point because what if we, if it takes that 60, 70% of the stuff that, that like we're just bogged down by and whatever project we're doing. What if, what if we could take that extra time and then put it towards that unreasonable hospitality feature, right? We can. Instead of thinking, I just have to get it done, oh no, I'm gonna not meet my deadline. Now you can be like, well, I know I'm gonna meet my deadline. How can I improve the product? How can I improve the learning or the experience for whoever's on the other end of it? And I think that might even give us the opportunity to have like those, those uh, pre dinner meetings. Right. Only have them with our pre project meetings. Or hey, how do we, how do we improve upon this? What items can we find that we could do more with? What are the touch points that we could get more out of it? And that could be, um, you know, uh, more retention, it could be, uh, better metrics in the end of whatever it is that they're measuring in the hopes that they're measuring. Right. You know, all of those types of things.

Speaker B: So I want to. Is it okay if we switch gears?

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: So you and Jeff have recently started a YouTube channel. And I want to talk about that because I think it's interesting in this kind of world, things that we just talked about from an AI perspective, you're, you're actually doing something sounds like you are teaching AI, but you're. The creation of a video is more kind of human manual, right? Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that process of create. What, what is your process for creating a video.

Speaker A: Sure. So I think the biggest thing, um, I, I'm kind of old school, right. So I start off with, you know, you come up with an idea, you're up, uh, with everything. Right. There's a problem to be solved. So does the video make the most sense? Um, draw out an old school storyboard, right? And then you, you put some stuff up on the wall, maybe some sticky notes with some suggestions. Right. If you have the time to do it. Uh, that was always my favorite part. Right. Where you could put it. You start to figure out where you need to get the. The content that you want. Right. Do we. Is this a, uh, is it a situational thing where we're filming a scenario? All right, well, do I need B roll? Do I need, you know, what are the. What are the components that I have to capture? You know, what is the second unit going to cover while we're over there doing the important stuff? Right. Um, or if it's just like, okay, who do I have to get a hold of that has the program that we need to capture from? So, you know, it's a lot of times it's not me. I'm not the expert on all the things, so I have to go find somebody. And then it's like, okay, well, now I have to figure out whether or not you have Camtasia. Can you record it for me in the way that I need it to be recorded? Right. So I think that that's sort of the process that I go through. And. But you start off with that, that problem you're solving, and you try to be as creative as you can within, uh, the confines of what you. What tools you have available. So I think that that's kind of the process that I use for that. And, and I think it's a very similar process for me when it comes m. To doing anything with AI. It's. You come up with an idea. I've got a problem that I'm trying to solve. Whether it's small, whether it's big, whatever it might be. And, you know, how do I map out what that looks like? I don't have to draw the storyboard anymore. It makes a storyboard for me, and then I tell it what I like and what I don't like. Um, and then from there we can move on to, all right, well, this is what I'm hoping to do. Um, I need you to fully understand, ask me as many questions as you need so that you know exactly what it is that I'm asking you to do. Don't do anything. Because I only got so many credits in Claude, man. You can't take all my credits by just guessing, right? Yeah. So I need you to. I need you to fully get what I'm doing. Um, in fact, it's not unheard of for two of my monitors to have Claude here and Chad GPT over here. Because I've got to burn any credits with you guys with ChatGPT, right? I can go over here. So tell me what I need to do to do better with Claude. And then I get it over to Claude, and Claude's like, hey, I got this. And I was like, awesome. Right?

Speaker B: That's great.

Speaker A: So I don't have to burn any credits with you. So anyway, like, that's the. That's kind of the. The overall process. And again, it's. It's similar. Like, I don't have to burn any internal credits knowing that I've. When I'm doing the video stuff too, if I've got everything ahead of time. Yeah, I've answered all the questions, right. So I don't think my process has really changed, just the. The speed at which I can do it. And, um, I. I'm.

Speaker B: It.

Speaker A: It makes me better at it a little bit, right? It can be more creative. Uh, it can help me get my creativity out there more. Because sometimes I'm like, oh, this would be really great. And then it's like, you don't know how to do that. And you don't have. You don't have a month to learn how to do that, right?

Speaker B: You don't. You don't have all the time in the world.

Speaker A: I tell you what, I thought you

Speaker B: were using AI and had more time.

Speaker A: You know, there was a time when I first I wanted to make Star wars fan films, right? Where I was so excited about it. And the main reason is because I wanted to do lightsaber fights, right? And this is not very long ago, in fact, but nonetheless, it was. It was long enough ago that we didn't have tons of this type of technology. I was using Photoshop shop, pulling in frame by frame video, um, reels and rotoscoping on that. And all of a sudden, like, my wife was like, where. Where are you? And I was like. I was like, well, I'm just working on this a little bit. She's like, it's been four days. What are you doing? Right. You know, I would just disappear into this tiny little computer that had no business doing what it was doing in the. You know, including myself at the time, right? So now being able to just auto select something and have it, rotoscope it or you know, those types of processes, I can have that vision and AI helps me get there, uh, more so than me having to learn all those skills from the beginning.

Speaker B: So I would guess that there's uh, audience who are listening there and some, some of them are going to be weigh on the heavy AI usage understanding. There's going to be some who are like, ooh, rage against the machine here a little bit. Right? Yeah, but, but I'm thinking about these two processes that you're bringing together. It's really fascinating to me that, you know, what you're, you're looking at is someone, you're someone who's made a lot of videos in your, your career, your, your experience and you've understood kind of where those, those pinch points are, right? Where it's like, oh, it's going to take me a long time to write the script because I just want to talk about it. Right? Or it's, oh, I need a storyboard. And yeah, I know how to storyboard, but gosh, it just takes me a long time. Right. And so what advice would you give to the folks who are like, okay, I'm trying to figure this out. They don't have maybe the depth of experience you have. And obviously it's one thing to say like, yeah, just go use AI, but, but that's like everything, like, go make a video. You know, it's like, oh, gosh, uh, what advice would you give someone who's like, okay, I'm going to figure this out how I want to get my workflow to be better. Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, I would say that's a great question. I would say that you almost kind of want to take a step back from AI or even capturing a video, right. And actually just really think about the process and if you fully understand the process, like the pre, the actual shoot, the post kind of stuff, right. Uh, just understanding at high level what typically goes on there. And then how do I adapt that into like a learning, development flow? Um, I, I read a lot of books, you know, watched a lot of movies.

Speaker B: You know, that's my favorite one. Like, hey, that's my favorite assignment to give. Go watch movies. Exactly.

Speaker A: You know, my favorite is the clips that they have, like the um, the layouts and the golden ratio and like the, the rule of thirds. Right. You know, all of these things that I kind of grasped onto really helped me do that. So I think even just going back and looking at some of the terminology that people use. And that's very similar to like working in AI too. Right. You can be like, oh, I'm trying to build a website and I needed to do that thing where it circles around the stuff. Right. And I need to be like, I don't know what this is called, but I need the thing to do the thing. And then it goes, oh, yeah, that's, uh, such and such. Right. And then you're like, oh, I have a new term that I now know what the thing is. And I think the same thing goes with kind of capturing video and doing it. Another thing I recommend is that we've all got cameras and video or video ready all the time. Yep. Um, if you think about it, just start capturing stuff. Just record things, record small stuff, record obscure things, Just record, I don't know, yourself doing stuff. So, yeah, I think that the whole process itself, like, I think just understanding a little bit more. Um, and if you don't want to get too far in the weeds, you don't necessarily have to anymore. Right. I think it helps though, if that's. If your passion is to do better videos, you know, go back and see how other people did better videos. Right. Or just watch a whole bunch of videos, like learning videos that are out there.

Speaker B: Well, I, I think the key for me, what I heard, uh, I think is a big takeaway that I hope the audience hearing this will. Will key in on. Is that the idea of you still, even if you're using these tools.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You. The. That vocabulary and the, the fundamental understanding of what makes something good is really key. And I think that goes back to that earlier question about kind of keeping the human in, in space. Right. Because while you can. I know AI can create a lot of amazing things, I still have to be able to judge whether or not that's an amazing thing that is accurate. Right. And we're not getting away from that anytime soon. But whether that's your instructional model, whether that's whether a video is good or not, like, I can look at a video and say, oh, that looks really great. And it might not actually be what it needs to be. Right.

Speaker A: Yeah. It's interesting. The word you used was it creates. Right. And I think I've used that term before, but I. But what's important to understand is that it generates. AI generates. It knows everything, but it understands nothing. It is nothing more than a prediction engine. That's all it is. It looks and it says, hey, um, this is what it looks like everybody else did. So you asked some similar questions. I'M going to do that. Right. So it, technically, you're still the creator and that's that human part. Right. You're the creator. So you have to. AI is just another canvas that we use to actually paint or, you know, or sculpt or whatever it is that we're doing. We have to be in control of it. It's no more a creator than a, than a paintbrush is. Right. It's just a. It's a tool that we use to get what we need out there. So. Yeah, so not that I was trying to call you out, I was just.

Speaker B: No.

Speaker A: All of a sudden it just hit me and I was like, no, that's a, that's a really good distinction actually.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's. I mean, but that's the challenge I think we're faced with, with a lot of things is the, the making sure we're using the right vocabulary to make sure we're describing the right things. And even going back to again with video. Right. Like understanding those things, it's. It still becomes critical. Right? Like, yes, it can, it can generate a lot of things. But we having that verbiage, not only does it help us make better. Make better things, it also helps us have that conversation or as we're prompting to get to the generation that we're getting the things that we expect. Right? Yep. Oh, I want parallax scrollings. Okay, well, if. What. What is parallax scrolling? I don't know that I can define it, except for I know it when I see it.

Speaker A: Right, Exactly.

Speaker B: All right, well, Destiny, this has been super fun. I'm going to ask you. We're going to move into our speed round questions. So I've normally, I'd play a little music and some cars would race and be speed round questions. These are fun, fast questions meant to be answered in a fun, fast way. So number one, if you could choose any image to depict yourself, what would you choose? Um, I never said these were easy.

Speaker A: I said fast. Wow. You didn't say fast. I don't know how you figured fast. So any image to depict myself. Huh huh. It would have to be something blurry and, and like it's moving quick. Right. That's, that's the first thing I think of because I'm always like moving fast. No, the first thing I actually thought of was something that involved the lightsaber once again. So I'm pretty singularly focused on, on certain things when it comes to, um, the things that I think about when. From being a kid and stuff.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, no, No, I love that. Okay. Number two, if you could have dinner with anyone past, uh, present, you know, where you don't have to worry about restrictions on how that's going to work, uh, who would you want to have dinner with?

Speaker A: Gosh, you know, uh, at the risk of continuing to sound incredibly nerdy, I would love to have dinner with, like, maybe George Lucas or Dave Filoni or John Favano. Like, I think that would be really cool. Um, you know, to really kind of just get into their brains a little bit and see, like, how do you. How do you come up with this kind of creative stuff? Even other, like, directors, I think, would be really neat, too. I don't know. I don't necessarily. I don't know if there's any, like, philosophers or anything. I would. But that would be, like, you know, James Cameron, um, you know, that kind of thing. So I think those would be the types of people that I would love to, like, pick their brain and be like, how are you so creative? And they're like, I don't know. It just is something I have. And it's like, oh, I wish I had it, too.

Speaker B: Okay, well, we're gonna go down this One more question. We might as well stay on the nerdy track. So, uh, Guilty Song or movie? Kind of guilty pleasure.

Speaker A: Like, what.

Speaker B: What's your go to?

Speaker A: Oh, gosh, my go to. M. Honestly, my. My go to movie is Empire. Empire Strikes Back. Every single time. Like, I think, um, it was, like, on Brand. On brand, yeah. 100. Like, always in the background. Always there. I think Guilty. Um, song. Have you, uh, you get. You ever heard Fet's vet by, uh, MC Chris? My DeLorean? You got to check it out. It's really good stuff.

Speaker B: I. I will. I would do that as soon as we're done. Okay, well, Destre, I'm. Thank you, first of all, for joining me and having this conversation. If people want to connect with you or learn from you, where should they turn?

Speaker A: Uh, awesome. So the easiest way to connect to me on social media is through LinkedIn. So I'm one of the few destries that are out there. Uh, but also, uh, you can follow myself and Jeff Batt at Vibedojo. Uh, you can find us@vibedojo.ninja, and then you can also find our YouTube channel. Just search Vibe Dojo. And we. We're, uh, one of the first three that pop up. I think we might be the first three entirely that pop up. So.

Speaker B: Yeah, I didn't know there was that many Vibe Dojos. I don't know.

Speaker A: There's. There's a lot of vibe, weird stuff out there right now with the coding thing, so. Yeah. But no, we typically come up in the top 10, so, yeah.

Speaker B: Fantastic. Okay, Destre. Ah, this is the hard one. Destri, what is your final take?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think the biggest thing that I would love everybody to really think about is to keep that human piece in there by learning the terminology of the thing you want to do. Keep it in there so that you. You can speak to it. Right. I think that you want to speak to it not only to the AI so that it gives you the right answers, but speak to it as though you could have a conversation with a colleague so that they, too, could understand what it is. And if you can have those kinds of conversations, um, you can really start accelerating the types of things that you create in these really cool tools that we have.

Speaker B: Fantastic. Well, Destry, thank you for joining me in the visual Lounge.

Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me, Matt.

Speaker B: You thank you bet. Hey, everybody. You heard Destry. It was fantastic having him on the show. We're always grateful for our guests that pop in, and he was a replacement, so I'm so grateful that he was willing to jump in last minute and take all these crazy questions. But we hope you like what you're hearing about the things that we're talking about, about using images and videos, about using AI and bringing that world together. Because, look, there are so many opportunities to train, to teach, to instruct, to help, to market, do whatever it is you're doing using images and video that you learning to be better at them is a skill that will age you. Even if you're not the ultimate, like, uh, generator of it. Right? Even if you're just helping someone else create it or you're helping the AI to generate that thing. It's going to make your life a little bit easier to have that understanding, as we heard from Destry. So with that said, you know, we hope you. If you like the podcast, you go out and subscribe, you can find us on YouTube. We're on all the podcasting hosts. You can always email us at the visual lounge at TechSmith as well as you know, our goal is here to help you to get better at the things that you do. So we hope you take a little time to level up every single day. Thanks, everybody.