Ep. 154 Why Your ROAS Is Holding Your Brand Back

1 - > Mark: If you go into long term investing, it's like a DCA. 2 - > I think everyone's not everyone, but most people are familiar 3 - > with like dollar cost averaging into a stock or into an 4 - > investment where it's like, hey, you know what? 5 - > Like SpaceX just IPO'd. 6 - > I personally, not financial advice, will be DCAing into 7 - > SpaceX.

8 - > But there's times where, uh oh. 9 - > Now that and that's the big difference, right? 10 - > Like if you have a long-term plan with your investments, 11 - > you're not pulling out and getting scared just because a 12 - > stock goes down. 13 - > Digital marketing has created an illusion of control over the 14 - > customer funnel.

15 - > Like Coca-Cola was everywhere forever. 16 - > Beers, Budweiser, Bud Light. 17 - > Like, why are they advertised? 18 - > Everyone knows who they are.

19 - > Why are they always advertising on sports? 20 - > Ultimately, that's what advertising is. 21 - > It's supposed to build a consistent and predictable flow 22 - > of revenue in your business over time. 23 - > Trevor: Yo, what's going on, everybody?

24 - > Welcome to the Unstoppable Marketer Podcast. 25 - > With me, as always, is Mark Goldhart, who is on his phone. 26 - > As always, Mark, what's up? 27 - > What's up?

28 - > Who is my co-host, by the way? 29 - > This is your first time. 30 - > Just uh the coast of the unstoppable. 31 - > Checking in on the World Cup.

32 - > It's World Cup season. 33 - > Yep. 34 - > The United States. 35 - > Vamos Argentina.

36 - > Played well. 37 - > Argentina played well. 38 - > Mark: Played great. 39 - > Trevor: Yeah.

40 - > Mark: And I d I I will root for the States if we ever play 41 - > Argentina, but I just don't think we um What's going on? 42 - > Trevor: Summer? 43 - > You have a new baby? 44 - > Mark: Client work.

45 - > The newborn phase. 46 - > Um, yeah, client work. 47 - > Camping, fishing. 48 - > Is the season?

49 - > SPEAKER_02: Nice. 50 - > Mark: My kids camping a lot. 51 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you have been, like on the weekends. 52 - > Mark: Gotta get them out of the house, you know?

53 - > Trevor: I've done nothing. 54 - > Mark: It's my it's my gift to my wife. 55 - > Yeah. 56 - > Get all my kids out of the house so she can spend time with the 57 - > newborn.

58 - > Trevor: That's very sweet and selfish of you at the same time, 59 - > huh? 60 - > It's like a sweet, selfish thing. 61 - > Mark: It's a win-win, is what it is. 62 - > Trevor: There you go.

63 - > That's better. 64 - > Mark: It's a win-win. 65 - > It's a win-win. 66 - > She wants me to do it.

67 - > Trevor: You're doing something for her. 68 - > And I get to go camping. 69 - > Yeah. 70 - > That is what they call a win-win.

71 - > Sweet. 72 - > Well. 73 - > Let's get into it. 74 - > Um, so quick quick c client win.

75 - > Right? 76 - > When I asked Mark, I'm like, what's the client win we want to 77 - > talk about? 78 - > Should we get sound effects? 79 - > Um one of the the thing he just said was like, he said staying 80 - > the course.

81 - > Like that was it. 82 - > And there's I think staying the course is gonna be the gonna go 83 - > in easily to our topic today, but I think one client when I 84 - > have is we have we have a client right now who is um they were a 85 - > smaller revenue client, but committed to um like really 86 - > understanding what their profitability numbers were. 87 - > So for every one dollar they spent, how much money were they 88 - > making, not just in revenue, but profitability, and how much 89 - > money did they make need to make in order to win?

90 - > And so it didn't matter how like what their ROAS might look like, 91 - > um, everything mattered to what their return on contribution 92 - > margin dollar was. 93 - > And so they have been increasing their ad spend by like 15% every 94 - > week for the last, I don't know, two months, three months. 95 - > Yeah. 96 - > Um and yes, efficiency continues to get smaller and smaller.

97 - > Well, yeah. 98 - > Mark: But profitability is rising, profit dollars are 99 - > accumulating. 100 - > Trevor: Profit margins have decreased, but profit margin 101 - > dollar has continued to increase, and it's been a really 102 - > cool thing to watch them not balk at a three-day lull or a 103 - > seven-day lull, you know, here and there. 104 - > Um, but they are trusting the process and understanding like 105 - > if they just stay the course, this is the red line, as long as 106 - > they stay the course, even though it might get really close 107 - > to it if they just keep going.

108 - > And that's been cool. 109 - > You don't see a lot of that. 110 - > Like a lot of people it's almost like you know, Mar Mark dabbles 111 - > in day trading. 112 - > Tell tell tell the audience like what is what is the what makes 113 - > or breaks from what you've told me a day trader.

114 - > Mark: Emotions. 115 - > Trevor: Explain it. 116 - > Mark: This is not financial advice. 117 - > Trevor: This is not financial advice across the This is not 118 - > financial advice.

119 - > Mark: If you ask me about the differences between day trading 120 - > and going to a casino, I don't really know. 121 - > So just it might be just gambling. 122 - > I don't know. 123 - > But if you're successful at it and if you're good at it and you 124 - > can be profitable at it, it usually means you have a plan, 125 - > you stick to the plan, and you simply don't let your losers 126 - > become too big and you let your winners win.

127 - > But you actually have to take the winners. 128 - > But yeah, it really comes down to not being emotional because 129 - > if you're emotional about the plan, and then you jump in too 130 - > early, you you leave too late. 131 - > But I think it's just I think it's just investing. 132 - > Like if you go into long-term investing, it's like a DCA.

133 - > I think everyone's not everyone, but most people are familiar 134 - > with like dollar cost averaging into a stock or into an 135 - > investment where it's like, hey, you know what? 136 - > Like SpaceX just I PO'd. 137 - > I personally, not financial advice, will be DCAing into 138 - > SpaceX over the next five to ten years. 139 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

140 - > Mark: It'll go up and down during that time, but overall, 141 - > when you DCA, you go up. 142 - > SPEAKER_02: Right. 143 - > Mark: But there's times where, uh oh. 144 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

145 - > Mark: Now that and that's the big difference, right? 146 - > Like if you have a long-term plan with your investments, 147 - > you're not pulling out and getting scared just because a 148 - > stock goes down. 149 - > Now, there, you know, there's other indicators that people 150 - > use, but like if you're just dollar cost averaging into the 151 - > NASDAQ or into, you know, the SP over time, like you're I mean, 152 - > the the data's there, the history is there. 153 - > The same thing with advertising.

154 - > I think people pull out of advertising the second the stock 155 - > goes down. 156 - > Yeah. 157 - > But it doesn't mean that there's like actually intrinsic evidence 158 - > that the advertising effort wasn't working. 159 - > Trevor: Or is no longer working.

160 - > Mark: Or is no longer, and that's always the delicate 161 - > balance with advertising, is digital marketing has created an 162 - > illusion of control over the customer funnel. 163 - > That's my hot take. 164 - > Trevor: You want to explain what you mean by that? 165 - > Mark: No, but I will.

166 - > Because we have attribution, everyone thinks that you can 167 - > meticulously plan and measure every step of a customer's 168 - > journey, and it's just not true. 169 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 170 - > Mark: Now I'm not saying that measuring, you know, to the 171 - > north beams and the triple L's of the world. 172 - > We like we like people at both places, and you know, we look 173 - > really like a lot of the people at the and know the people at 174 - > the north beam office, is there's still a lot of value in 175 - > measuring attribution.

176 - > You can find value in it, but sometimes it creates this 177 - > illusion, like, well, okay, I need this X ROI on this ad, or 178 - > it gets turned off. 179 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 180 - > Mark: When the the platforms don't even work that way, right? 181 - > So like meta is already with Andromeda and their updates.

182 - > It's gonna determine a winner within two or three days, and 183 - > it's going to scale the ad that is the most scalable. 184 - > Not necessarily that's gonna produce you the most ROI in that 185 - > given moment, but it's gonna give you the most halo effect 186 - > over time. 187 - > Yeah. 188 - > And that's what makes it difficult is like you have to 189 - > measure things, but too often people are cutting off their top 190 - > funnel winners.

191 - > And we can get into a debate around like, does it really 192 - > exist top funnel bot? 193 - > Like sure, sure. 194 - > Trevor: Maybe it's explain what you mean by a top funnel winner. 195 - > Mark: Top funnel.

196 - > Well, top funnel winner in meta is often gonna be something that 197 - > drives really great engagements, qualified traffic, but maybe not 198 - > buying. 199 - > So like reach? 200 - > Like a well, like, yeah, I mean that cost per reach might be 201 - > there, but just generally speaking, like if it's a video, 202 - > for example, you're gonna have good video metrics, so hook 203 - > rates, through plays, you can measure through plays, or you 204 - > can measure completion rates, whatever you want to do.

205 - > There's other ways of doing it. 206 - > Um but ultimately the good uh like the leading indicator is 207 - > that meta wants to spend money on it. 208 - > SPEAKER_02: Right. 209 - > Mark: Because if meta is spending money on it, then you 210 - > know that it's working within the algorithm and it's getting 211 - > good engagement, and meta wants to spend money because it's not 212 - > ruining the experience of people in the platform.

213 - > SPEAKER_02: Right. 214 - > Mark: And sometimes it's wrong. 215 - > Like I'm not saying just let Meta do whatever it wants all 216 - > the time. 217 - > Yeah.

218 - > But what I'm saying is sometimes people look at that and in two 219 - > days they're like, oh, this ad isn't working. 220 - > But if you leave it on for seven days or even 14 days, right, the 221 - > ad set or the campaign or the that audience, like you you'll 222 - > actually see an uplift. 223 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 224 - > Mark: So this illusion of, oh, I need to to go in and granularly 225 - > select or deselect every little option, it just creates extra 226 - > work, added, added friction and fear because you constantly, you 227 - > know, it's like investing again, to liken it unto investing.

228 - > Um you don't control the company that you're investing in. 229 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 230 - > Mark: We don't control everything that's happening in 231 - > the world, right? 232 - > As advertisers.

233 - > We like to think we do, but we don't. 234 - > We don't control seasonality, we don't control uh international 235 - > affairs, we don't control the purchasing power of the dollar, 236 - > we don't control people's emotions. 237 - > Like, you know, we can influence people's emotions, but we don't 238 - > control every variable out there. 239 - > So why make a decision like off of a false positive or a false 240 - > negative within a certain time frame when you probably don't 241 - > have all the data?

242 - > So you have to start measuring things in terms of 243 - > incrementality and halo effects. 244 - > And again, all those tools can help with that. 245 - > Like we're not definitely not against that. 246 - > But even within those tools, don't have the illusion.

247 - > And and these and by the way, the tools don't claim to have 248 - > all the answers. 249 - > If you go in and you look at their attribution settings, it's 250 - > like, hey, look at this. 251 - > It's supposed to give you a frame of reference and mind 252 - > within certain contexts. 253 - > Yeah.

254 - > So don't get fooled. 255 - > Like they're not lying either. 256 - > Right. 257 - > It's hey, here's last click, here's full, here's you know, 258 - > evenly attributed, here's our machine learning model, yeah, 259 - > here's our marketing mix model, whatever.

260 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 261 - > Mark: But don't don't pretend like you control everything 262 - > about a customer's journey. 263 - > unknown: Right. 264 - > Mark: You just don't.

265 - > Trevor: Right. 266 - > Yeah, I think the reason why we're interested in this topic, 267 - > Mark's kind of talked a little bit about top of funnel stuff 268 - > and bottom of the funnel, you know, like that's where this 269 - > conversation is leading. 270 - > I think one thing that we see a lot as advertisers is we see a 271 - > lot of brands putting tons of money um into campaigns, ad 272 - > sets, ads that are driving results, like immediate results. 273 - > Mark: They are driving reported ROAS.

274 - > Trevor: Which is results, yeah. 275 - > Which is important. 276 - > We're not saying that that's that's not important, but the 277 - > problem with that incremental. 278 - > It's not incremental and it's not sustainable.

279 - > Meaning if you do that, you are always going to be fighting for 280 - > the it's almost like a race to the bottom at that point. 281 - > Right? 282 - > If you are a brand who recognizes that your CAC is 283 - > going up every year, your ROAS is going down every year, and 284 - > business is harder and harder, it probably means that you're 285 - > fishing out of the bottom of the barrel. 286 - > Mark: And constantly.

287 - > And the more you continue to do that, the worse it's gonna get. 288 - > Trevor: Because the less and less people are in there. 289 - > Mark: Yeah. 290 - > Trevor: Right?

291 - > And the more everyone else is also trying to buy from those 292 - > people because nowadays those people, the people at the bottom 293 - > of the funnel, the people who are just buying in specific 294 - > categories, like we're not only competing with our competitors 295 - > anymore, we're competing with every other it brand that's 296 - > trying to market to the same person who's this, you know, the 297 - > 35-year-old mom who is the decision maker for the 298 - > household, for example.

299 - > Right? 300 - > So it's not just your competitors who are, you know, 301 - > fighting for her, it's everyone else. 302 - > So when you are not manufacturing and billing and 303 - > finding more of those new people who might not be ready to buy, 304 - > every year things are gonna get harder and harder for you. 305 - > Yes?

306 - > Mark: Yes, it is. 307 - > Trevor: So that's the I think that's the conversation we want 308 - > to have today. 309 - > You know, like what what do brands need to do? 310 - > The question is if you are a brand who whose CAC has risen 311 - > every year, whose ROS has increased every year, decreased 312 - > every year, what are some things brands can start doing today to 313 - > get out of that hole?

314 - > Mark: Well, number one, I know this is this might be a little 315 - > strange, but it is understanding what the central limit theorem 316 - > is in statistics, which is when you have enough of something, it 317 - > eventually reaches a normal distribution. 318 - > Okay so like heights, weights, anything really around people, 319 - > eventually you reach a normal distribution. 320 - > So when you're measuring ads or when you're you're putting stuff 321 - > into ads, over time you will reach a normal distribution in 322 - > your performance, and in the performance of your ads, you're 323 - > gonna have outliers, right?

324 - > You're gonna have outliers on both sides, performers and bad 325 - > performers. 326 - > Trevor: Yeah. 327 - > Mark: Um, and then you're gonna have a lot of stuff that kind of 328 - > like sits there in the in the average, but which is the 329 - > normal, which is kind of the normal, yeah. 330 - > But when you're thinking about placing your ad dollars into 331 - > something, you need to skew over into top funnel the bigger you 332 - > get.

333 - > And the reason why is because like we talk about organic, and 334 - > yes, organic distribution matters, and you should always 335 - > be striving for it, but it's just not realistic to expect 336 - > your organic distribution to, and by organic we mean not word 337 - > of mouth, like there's other organic distribution out there, 338 - > like when you're big enough, like the flywheel effect with 339 - > just word of mouth and people seeing you everywhere. 340 - > We're talking mostly like, hey, you did this effort, this 341 - > campaign, you know, whatever, and you want this many results 342 - > back from it.

343 - > Trevor: Yes. 344 - > Mark: It just doesn't, it's almost impossible to expect that 345 - > to outweigh what the paid is going to do because that's 346 - > ultimately you're it's a paid world. 347 - > Trevor: And that's yeah, that's what I was gonna say. 348 - > The reason for it, let me just cut you off, is because we are 349 - > just in a paid world, right?

350 - > So it's like, yes, there are those outliers of people who are 351 - > getting organic distribution and who are doing it. 352 - > It's just so much fewer and farther between. 353 - > And we're never gonna be the people who are ever gonna tell 354 - > you to not focus on those things. 355 - > But at the end of the day, 99% of the brands aren't ever going 356 - > to be able to accomplish that the way the 1% is, right?

357 - > Because Metto and TikTok is a paid world now. 358 - > Yeah. 359 - > This podcast is brought to you by BFF Creative. 360 - > BFF Creative is a software that meets services.

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370 - > And if you use promo code unstoppable30, you'll get 30% 371 - > off for your first month on i. 372 - > Just go to bffcreative.co, pick your plan, and sign up today. 373 - > Mark: And so now we're going back to like frequencies and how 374 - > do you measure.

375 - > Well, what we like to do is the bigger, the bigger your budget 376 - > is. 377 - > You're starting to play the game of you just want to always be 378 - > there in a in a cost-effective way, but you're trying to be 379 - > there as often as possible, especially if you have uh a very 380 - > large TAM. 381 - > So again, going back to the the Giants, like Coca-Cola. 382 - > Like Coca-Cola was everywhere forever.

383 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 384 - > Mark: The beers, Budweiser, Bud Light, like why are they 385 - > advertised? 386 - > Everyone knows who they are. 387 - > Trevor: Right.

388 - > Mark: Why are they always advertising on sports programs? 389 - > Trevor: Yeah, just because they're top of mind. 390 - > Why would you drink anything else but coke? 391 - > Mark: Like there, yeah, or Michel McLobe Ultra, whatever.

392 - > Like you see a beer commercial in every sporting event. 393 - > Yeah. 394 - > In movies, in movies, everything, right? 395 - > You see Coca-Cola everywhere.

396 - > Trevor: You see Pepsi, what they're trying to what they're 397 - > trying to do, what these brands are trying to do that are at 398 - > that level, right? 399 - > The billion dollar level, is they're just trying to make it 400 - > make it look like every scenario, if there is a place 401 - > for a beer to have be there or a place for a soda to be there, 402 - > you don't ever picture anything but they want you to see it and 403 - > then remember it as you're walking by.

404 - > Mark: Now these are consumables, so like again, you can see that 405 - > you can go to the store and get it right away. 406 - > It's it's a little different than maybe some of the uh the 407 - > product categories that our listeners sit in, or some of our 408 - > listeners. 409 - > Um but still you want to be the brand that they recognize as oh, 410 - > that's the brand. 411 - > Right.

412 - > Because the more they see you, the more they associate with you 413 - > with truth. 414 - > We've talked about this concept. 415 - > If you read Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman 416 - > Kahneman, and ultimately that's what advertising is. 417 - > It's supposed to build a consistent and predictable flow 418 - > of revenue in your business over time.

419 - > But again, you're gonna have ups and downs in that flow. 420 - > But like, how do you measure, how do you measure it 421 - > appropriately to push things up over time and consistently and 422 - > in a predictable way? 423 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 424 - > Mark: And the more you nitpick and the more you're turning 425 - > things on and off at a granular level, the the more false flags 426 - > that you're gonna introduce, that could make things even 427 - > worse.

428 - > SPEAKER_02: Totally. 429 - > Mark: And that's and that is the hardest part, in my opinion, 430 - > about digital marketing right now is yeah, you can't wait too 431 - > long where losers are just losing money. 432 - > SPEAKER_02: Totally. 433 - > Mark: But you can't act too fast.

434 - > Yeah. 435 - > You have to wait for the right moments and the right 436 - > indicators, and then you have to make your plan of action. 437 - > But you can't just be in there turning things on and off all 438 - > the time because you're you're probably not gonna have a 439 - > consistent effort. 440 - > Trevor: Yeah.

441 - > Well, and every change you make also can shake up a lot of stuff 442 - > too, right? 443 - > It's not just that. 444 - > Yeah, because you're dealing with algorithms. 445 - > Yeah, it's not just chasing a false positive or double downing 446 - > on, you know, oh my gosh, this is working so good today.

447 - > Let's triple spend. 448 - > Like it's not just there's there's just more that goes into 449 - > it when you do that kind of thing. 450 - > Mark: Like we're obviously simplifying this all down. 451 - > There's more nuances and things can be a lot more difficult.

452 - > But ultimately, people are so consumed with ROAS and hitting 453 - > bofu, bottom of the funnel and mid-funnel, when you need to be 454 - > getting people introduced to your brand and then reminding 455 - > them about your brand. 456 - > Trevor: Yeah, you need to have you need to have budget going to 457 - > things that aren't bringing you money today. 458 - > Mark: You have to. 459 - > Trevor: Right?

460 - > But they might be bringing you money two weeks from now. 461 - > Mark: Yes. 462 - > Trevor: Or in theory, the lower stuff starts to get more 463 - > efficient two weeks from now. 464 - > Mark: And and again, this always goes back to measuring because 465 - > some people will take this and be like, oh, let's go spend 466 - > money on video view campaigns or traffic campaigns or whatever.

467 - > And sometimes that works. 468 - > But you have to have how are you going to measure the impact of 469 - > this effort? 470 - > And if you can't measure it, is it worth doing? 471 - > Yeah.

472 - > You have to know how to measure these things because sometimes 473 - > you're just shooting in the dark and you're like, oh, let's let's 474 - > try this little campaign, but it's like doesn't even indicate 475 - > a blip on the radar. 476 - > Yeah. 477 - > You can't measure it at all. 478 - > It's like, I don't know, maybe it drove something.

479 - > Trevor: Sure. 480 - > Mark: So how are you measuring these efforts? 481 - > So if you're if you're doing top funnel campaigns, you can do top 482 - > funnel with the sales objective. 483 - > You can do it with video engagement.

484 - > You can do it with different engagement options. 485 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 486 - > Mark: But how are you measuring the downwind effect of these 487 - > efforts? 488 - > Trevor: Yeah.

489 - > Any recommendations, thoughts you have for people? 490 - > Mark: Well, are you are you measuring it through brand 491 - > search? 492 - > Are people searching your brand more often? 493 - > Are they coming through direct?

494 - > Are you measuring it through email signups and email flows? 495 - > Are you measuring it through sales impact over time? 496 - > Trevor: Are you measuring it through efficiency efforts 497 - > getting better? 498 - > Mark: Are you seeing efficiency increase over two weeks, three 499 - > weeks?

500 - > Are you because again, you don't want to be like, oh, I'm running 501 - > tofu. 502 - > It's gonna pan out in four months. 503 - > It's like uh yeah, like I guess I guess it depends on the 504 - > business, but well it depends on how much you're investing and 505 - > their frequency across that time frame. 506 - > Yeah.

507 - > And the mofu bofu side, but a lot of a lot of companies sit in 508 - > the seven to fourteen day window. 509 - > Yeah. 510 - > Which is why, by the way, the meta algorithm is always gonna 511 - > push down into the mofu bofu side. 512 - > Right.

513 - > Trevor: Because they need to show their quick winners. 514 - > Mark: Yeah, we've talked about this. 515 - > This is called a meta-optimized market. 516 - > Yeah.

517 - > So we talk about TAMs, right? 518 - > But meta within their targeting audience, yeah, it's reducing it 519 - > all the way down to the people they have identified who are 520 - > ready to purchase within their optimization windows. 521 - > Trevor: Yeah. 522 - > So what Mark is saying is like, if you are, let's take Poppy 523 - > versus Ollipop.

524 - > Mark: Yeah. 525 - > Trevor: Right? 526 - > If Poppy, right, they both have the same TAM. 527 - > Yeah.

528 - > Theoretically. 529 - > Yes? 530 - > Theoretically, yeah. 531 - > But let's say Poppy comes out.

532 - > Mark: It's anyone who's wants to sell. 533 - > Yeah. 534 - > Trevor: Let's say Poppy comes out and says, we can only afford 535 - > to have a three row as. 536 - > Because the people said so.

537 - > Mark: Yeah. 538 - > Trevor: And then Ollipop comes out and says, well, we can have 539 - > a 1.5. 540 - > What happens is you go from TAM and Poppy's meta-optimized 541 - > market takes the TAM and says, Well, at a three, we can only 542 - > get this many people.

543 - > Whereas Olipop says, Well, at a 1.5, we can get all we can 544 - > double that. 545 - > Mark: And then guess what? 546 - > All of those people are within the sales signals.

547 - > Trevor: Yes. 548 - > The people who are ready to buy. 549 - > Mark: You're not reaching, for example, let's just for 550 - > argument's sake, just say 100 million. 551 - > There's a hundred million people on the meta platforms actively.

552 - > Yeah. 553 - > Let's just say that for easy math. 554 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 555 - > Mark: If your TAM is 80 million people, you're not reaching all 556 - > 80 million.

557 - > No. 558 - > Even if it says you reached 80 million last year, no, you 559 - > didn't because you had frequency. 560 - > You might have reached some of those people the year before. 561 - > You're not reaching everybody.

562 - > Yeah. 563 - > There's some brands might be, sure. 564 - > Depending on their objectives, but most people aren't. 565 - > Because most people are are narrowing it down to sales 566 - > objectives.

567 - > Trevor: Yeah. 568 - > Who's going to buy the quickest? 569 - > Mark: Yeah. 570 - > We've talked about this with uh Alex MacArthur, the former CMO 571 - > over at Purple.

572 - > And he is a big we probably should have him on the podcast 573 - > again. 574 - > Is he a big proponent of this? 575 - > Is like you have to build moments that resonate over time. 576 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

577 - > Mark: And if you get too caught up, then it's just a it's a slow 578 - > death march for your brand. 579 - > Trevor: Yeah, it might look really good for a year. 580 - > And then the next year all you have. 581 - > That Curtis uh what's the Portland Leather?

582 - > What's his last name? 583 - > He was on the podcast. 584 - > Cut this out. 585 - > Curtis with an M.

586 - > Anyways, he was on the podcast and he talked about this too. 587 - > He's like, when I was in my early days of Portland Leather, 588 - > I looked up to Curtis Matsko. 589 - > Yeah, he's like, I looked up to five brands and they were so 590 - > much bigger and better than me. 591 - > And they stopped growing, they stopped scaling and trying to 592 - > stretch for new numbers.

593 - > And within like five to ten years, all of them came to him, 594 - > hey, come buy us. 595 - > Because he focused on growth and just touching and reaching new 596 - > people, whereas they've just focused in this spot. 597 - > Mark: Yeah. 598 - > Trevor: And he's like, Some of them are still around, but no 599 - > nobody's, and some of them are not around.

600 - > He's like, I would have never thought 10 years ago that that I 601 - > would be bigger than them and that they would just be what 602 - > they were. 603 - > Because eventually they just get in this circular bottom feeder 604 - > world of okay, cool. 605 - > There's one person that just fell down here. 606 - > Let's already nab them up.

607 - > Mark: I'm just convinced a lot of it's just mindset at this 608 - > point. 609 - > Yeah. 610 - > Well, I that's why that's why I brought up that. 611 - > I get almost all is just mindset of like how that's why I brought 612 - > up your day trading.

613 - > Trevor: Like that's the been the best thing, like the best 614 - > analogy. 615 - > Like if you can just stick to it and you play the statistics of 616 - > it, like I know it's i people do the same thing. 617 - > Listen, I'm not you you brought it, you likened it unto 618 - > gabbling. 619 - > Gambling.

620 - > I have never been successful playing blackjack until my 621 - > friend taught me. 622 - > He said, every time you win, if you can increase your next bet 623 - > by 10 to 15%, and you just play that game and you play the 624 - > numbers, he's like, you may not come out making tons of money. 625 - > He's like, but you'll be able to play blackjack for four hours 626 - > and not lose and just pretty much break even. 627 - > Yeah.

628 - > Break even at a minimum to and there's been times where I've 629 - > like, and I'm acting like I play, I don't play blackjack a 630 - > lot, but when I have, ever since I've done that method of just 631 - > like I have a mindset of I have I know what the rules are, I'm 632 - > never double downing at XYZ, I'm never hitting when the dealer's 633 - > holding a six, you know, like those things, and I'm always 634 - > increasing that 10 to 15%. 635 - > Because then eventually you start winning really, really 636 - > big.

637 - > Mark: Yeah. 638 - > You know? 639 - > Yeah, but you you can also do that in day trading, and but in 640 - > day trading, and and the same thing with black check, you're 641 - > just talking about probabilities. 642 - > Yeah.

643 - > So if you understand probabilities and what your 644 - > probability is with each setup, yeah, and you trust the normal 645 - > distribution of those probabilities over time. 646 - > So like if you have an 80% chance, just because you lose 647 - > doesn't mean it wasn't still. 648 - > Trevor: Even if you lose twice. 649 - > Yeah.

650 - > Mark: Or three times in a row. 651 - > Like you're it's still an 80% setup. 652 - > Right. 653 - > So and if you can do that over time, the averages work out for 654 - > you.

655 - > Totally. 656 - > Trevor: And obviously, paid the paid ads game is much more 657 - > probable and statistically. 658 - > Well, there's so many more, yeah. 659 - > There's like no than than this.

660 - > This is gambling, right? 661 - > Mark: Versus it's just it's just we want people to understand the 662 - > mindset of it is people get too caught up in the emotional 663 - > whiplash, and we get it. 664 - > It is emotional. 665 - > This is money, this is your livelihood.

666 - > Trevor: If you have investors, like sometimes we want it, 667 - > sometimes the founders need to see certain numbers. 668 - > Easier said than done. 669 - > Mark: Yeah. 670 - > But man, the brands that we see that are just humming along are 671 - > just sticking to plans.

672 - > Trevor: And they have short-term memories. 673 - > Mark: And they they understand what a loser is, but they're not 674 - > so quick about it. 675 - > Yeah. 676 - > I mean, even if things aren't going well, they stick to a plan 677 - > for a month.

678 - > Totally. 679 - > You know, it's like, oh, things don't look great right now. 680 - > Like, what's going on? 681 - > Trevor: Yeah.

682 - > I literally just got off, I mean, right before this podcast, 683 - > I got off a phone with somebody who we increased their budgets 684 - > massively and saw a hit in conversion rate this week. 685 - > You know, but there are certain things that make us make it look 686 - > like no, no, no, this was actually a good move. 687 - > It just this is just a blip. 688 - > Mark: Let's let it play out.

689 - > Trevor: And it was, you know, it's music to my ears, and 690 - > they're like, Yeah, let's do it. 691 - > Like, we don't need we don't need a decrease. 692 - > Like, yes, we know that the last four days sucked. 693 - > That's lost money.

694 - > Most people would say the decision we made was wrong. 695 - > Mark: But the leading KPIs are telling us. 696 - > Trevor: But the lead metrics are saying no, things are fine. 697 - > The cost per clicks are looking really, really healthy.

698 - > Your through plays are looking really healthy. 699 - > Your yeah, your bounce rate is looking really healthy. 700 - > Your average session duration is looking very, very healthy. 701 - > For whatever reason, conversion rate's just a little bit lower 702 - > right now.

703 - > Mark: You're just driving like the the newer the audience, the 704 - > less your conversion rate will be. 705 - > Trevor: Yeah. 706 - > Mark: And it can balance out over time, you know. 707 - > But like if you start really, if you haven't been pushing new, 708 - > heavy into new and tofu, you're not gonna see, you're gonna, 709 - > it's gonna be a little bit of a shock.

710 - > unknown: Yeah. 711 - > Mark: So but again, know what your KPIs are. 712 - > What are your lead, what are your lags, what are you 713 - > measuring, and then when do you pull the plug? 714 - > Totally.

715 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 716 - > Mark: We call that a stop loss. 717 - > You have to let you have to be willing to let something lose a 718 - > little bit. 719 - > Trevor: Totally.

720 - > Mark: Before pulling the plug. 721 - > Trevor: Yeah. 722 - > Failures are winners too. 723 - > Mark: Sometimes.

724 - > Yeah. 725 - > Trevor: All right. 726 - > I've heard that before. 727 - > All right.

728 - > Thank you guys. 729 - > Um I don't have anything else. 730 - > Is that good enough? 731 - > Yeah.

732 - > Yeah. 733 - > Appreciate you guys. 734 - > Thanks for tuning in. 735 - > We'll see you later.

736 - > Thank you for listening to the Unstoppable Marketer Podcast. 737 - > If there's a brand campaign strategy or marketing tactic 738 - > that you want us to review, please DM me at the TrevorCrump 739 - > on Instagram or TikTok or at the Unstoppable Marketer Podcast. 740 - > And of course, if you got value from this episode or if you like 741 - > it whatsoever, please make sure you're subscribing, you're 742 - > liking, you're following, and for sure go leave us a review to 743 - > let us know that we're doing a good job.

744 - > We will see you guys next time. 745 - > Mark: Oh what a good place to be.