Ep 195 PHCCweb.org - Mark Valentini & Taylor Bray

Speaker A: Welcome to the Trades Podcast. A podcast about the business of home improvement and promoting the trades to young adults. Happy, happy days here. This is the Trades podcast. I'm Danny.

Speaker B: And I'm Jeff.

Speaker A: We're excited to have another awesome episode for everybody to listen to, get some good insight and of course gain some knowledge so you can pass it along to others. Anybody that you're in the field, uh, of construction, field of trades, and more specifically plumbing, heating and cooling. If you're in that area. This is, uh, the episode for you because we have the awesome guest and the full association representing San Diego and across the country. PHCC is in the house. Welcome in. We got Taylor and Mark.

Speaker C: What's up?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, we're excited to have you guys back on. But Taylor, Mark, uh, we'll start with you. Taylor, go ahead and introduce yourself back into the Chase podcast. Let everybody know who you are.

Speaker C: Yeah, thanks for having me back. Uh, I think this is, uh, third time. Love it. Uh, I'm Taylor Bray. I'm the executive director of the PHCC San Diego chapter.

Speaker A: Awesome. And Mark, who are you representing and where you. I think you said you're on the, uh, other coast right now.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker D: Danny, Jeff, uh, Mark Valentini, vice, uh, President of Legislative affairs for PHCC national or based out of Falls Church, Virginia, just on the other side of the river from, uh, from Washington D.C. uh, and I serve as their federal lobbyist.

Speaker A: Amazing. Yeah, it's a big, big, uh, shoe to fill right there. And we're excited to have you on so we can really find out what, uh, um, what a lot of, uh, PHC has got going on today.

Speaker C: Yeah. When you guys, uh, asked maybe so for some ideas who to bring on, it was like a no brainer. We got to get Mark on here, we got to get him talking to let them know kind of in layman's terms what's going on legislatively. It's so important and one of the big things that PHCC does for its members is advocate for them. So I'm excited to get Mark, uh, going with some of, uh, what he's been working on.

Speaker D: Yeah, well, there's, you know, obviously a lot going on in Washington, uh, just being in California, uh, that, that alone should be enough for contractors to get engaged in everything that's going on there. And I don't, I'm not saying, I just. It's a very difficult environment. It's a very difficult regulatory environment. If you look at everything that's going on, uh, going back to 2019, uh, with the Berkeley Gas bans with efforts in south coast, um, and in Bay Area to uh, establish zero knock standards, uh, for water heaters and furnaces, um, just on the labor side as well. There's so much going on, uh, in California, uh, that uh, you know, everything that's going on in D.C. pales in comparison. We're certainly doing our part, uh, but it's important to understand how, you know, rules and regulations that at the state and federal level have an impact on the boots on the ground for sure.

Speaker C: And that's to Mark's point. PHCC of California. So we have Mark here from national. We have PHCC of California and then, um, here in San Diego, the local. Right. There's several locals in California. We can all help get you access to that information. On the state level, Mark's here mostly for federal. Right. I believe. So we're gonna, I'm gonna just jump in with a little introduction to Mark and then we can uh, leap into some of this conversation. But for those who don't know, Mark is the Vice President of Legislative affairs for phcc. National Association. So plumbing, heating, cooling contractors. National, um, it's, you know, we're one of the old, no big deal. We're one of the oldest and largest trade organizations representing plumbing and H Vac contractors in the U.S. uh, uh, Mark serves as the association's leading voice on federal policy and grassroots advocacy, specializing in tax policy, workforce development, energy regulations, tax tariffs and consumer energy choice. Uh, he's a regular presence on Capitol Hill and he's known for translating complex legislation into real world impact for men and women running plumbing and H Vac businesses every day. And I can tell you I'm going to be your best, uh, guinea pig for this because legislative stuff is like, woo, it's the legalese. And I do, I need several cups of coffee and then a lot of explanation. So I'm glad you're here today to break it down for us.

Speaker D: Glad to be here. Uh, a lot of the legalese is on the regulatory side. Um, and that's where I have a, uh, I have a colleague, Chuck, uh, White, who's our vice president, Regulatory affairs and he monitors all of the regulations that come out of Department of Energy and epa. Chuck is a third generation contractor, plumbing, H Vac and electrical. Um, you're not going to find anyone that is more thoroughly knowledgeable of the things that uh, of all regulatory activity, thoroughly versed in building codes. He uh, serves on several code committees and so I have him as sort of my mentor, uh, to help me understand A lot of the technical stuff. And then in return, uh, I'm providing sort of my knowledge on how Congress works and how government works and we act as the yin and Yang for PHCC's advocacy efforts.

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Speaker D: my knowledge on how Congress works and how government works and we act as the yin and yang for, for PHCC's advocacy efforts.

Speaker C: That's great. That's great. Yeah. Ah, I've seen you and Chuck doing a lot like you guys do podcast episodes, uh, also. So, uh, a good contact to have.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Could you walk us through, uh, for those who might not be familiar with the government relations work of the phcc, like what a day to day looks like.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker D: So, um, government relations, essentially every, every industry needs some kind of a spokesperson, right. Whether you know, something that's publicly facing, right. So you have someone that does public affairs, but you also need someone that does that, that, that front facing work on, on the government side. And so, you know, honestly, anyone can, can do this, right? Um, if you, you know, you have an understanding of government and understanding of how laws work. It's, you know, and ideally a person like the person that would do this kind of work would be a contractor. I'm not a contractor. Um, but you know, the reason why contractors not here is because contractors are out like doing real work. Uh, and so it's incumbent upon me to understand how this industry works, um, and continue to learn about how this industry works and sort of how it evolves and what are the latest trends, um, and communicate that to lawmakers, um, particularly in Congress, because that's where laws originate. Right. And lawmakers are bombarded with information every day from thousands of different industries. Right. Um, for, for us it's plumbing and H Vac, but then they're also hearing from pharmaceuticals and they're hearing from agriculture and they're hearing from energy and environmental groups and you know, social policy groups on, you know, all sides of the liberal conservative spectrum. And so they're just sort of drinking from the fire hose in terms of the information that's being bombarded to them. Every day. But they need to understand how various industry works, particularly ours, because the laws that they write have an impact on how our members do their jobs. Uh, and so it is my job, just at a very, you know, high level, to, to get them to understand how our industry works, how certain regulations and laws are working for us. Um, and more important like pointing out the ones where it's not working out for us, where there needs to be improvements in fine tuning or even outright elimination. And so, um, it's kind of like, uh, you know, but it's, you know, they can only do so much. Um, and so we need to be out there. You know, think of it as sort of the floor of the stock exchange, right? You have, you know, uh, you have uh, you know, dealers on the floor like screaming, trying to get, trying to get their sale or to make their purchase. And uh, eventually they get called on. And so that's kind of, that's kind of how my work is.

Speaker B: Taylor, uh, can we break this down? Because I understand this is quite a complex subject and focused on something that I was able to witness at the very recent phc, uh, Trades Expo. You guys had a speaker in there in one of the classrooms off to the side talking about the change in the, I think it's coming up in October for the water heater, uh, venting process is changing and that's on a national. You know about that, Mark?

Speaker D: Uh, yes. So PHCC actually filed an amicus brief with uh, ah, Heating Air Conditioning Refrigeration Distributors International, um, as well as the uh, Georgia Public Gas Association, I think. So we filed an AMCUS brief in that Supreme Court filing. Um, and essentially what it does, it doesn't just apply to, applies to uh, commercial water heaters as well as residential, uh, furnaces. Uh, and you know, this was a law that came out, or regulation that came out during the Biden administration that would essentially eliminate non condensing products. Right. And so this uh, obviously creates a problem. Uh, you know, the people who drafted this law either doesn't understand, you know, what goes into replacing a non, uh, condensing product with a condensing product, or they don't care because their end result is they want to see, uh, more efficient products out there in the market. Even though, you know, we go up against this tide where you have certain groups on the other side of us that are just pushing for efficiency standards that just, you know, eke out sort of a fraction of a percentage, uh, in efficiency, uh, with very minimum cost savings to consumers. Uh, but of course it takes a lot of resources, uh, to not only draft the law and draft the regulation, but for manufacturers to, uh, to retool and, and, and design new products. So for our intents and purposes, you know, we're focused, you know, particularly on the furnace side, because, you know, think about what it takes, you know, to, to just to get a new system. Okay, So a new system. Where I live in Northern Virginia in Fairfax county, I have 2,000 square foot end unit townhouse that was built in 1977. And um, you know, to, to replace my system would probably cost me anywhere from 12 to 15 thousand dollars for about two and a half ton system. Right. Um, and so, um, you know, but the thing is though, is that what if I wanted to like, you know, let's say it's a non condensing system, all right? And then all of a sudden I don't have, I don't have the option to purchase another non condensing system. I have to get a condensing system. And so what a lot of policymakers that drafted this law don't understand is that those products have to be vented differently. You can't vent it through a chimney. Uh, you know, b vents out of the question. So you're going to eliminate an industry right there or like just decimate it. Um, and uh, and then on top of that you have, you have to. So if you're running, if you're running new vent, you're cutting up drywall, um, and you, and then you have to run condensate, right? So then what happens in a basement, there's no place to drain the condenser. Um, you know, then you have to put in a pump system, right. To pump that condensate out. So it goes someplace where it's supposed to go because you can't just let it spill outside. That water is contaminated. Um, and so what should be for someone like me, a 12 to $15,000 investment in a new system, uh, is going to cost a lot more, uh, because, you know, going to be ripping out drywall, which means you have to patch it up, I have to get a drywall guy to come in, um, you know, run new vent. And you know, that, that could, that could easily double the cost of someone that just wants to have a system that works. And uh, you know, a lot of it goes a lot of, um, you know, a lot of what the lower quote rulings had said, it tied into, um, you know, had tied into features of the product. Right? And trying to argue that, uh, you know, whether a system can, is a condensing system or a non condensing system. And they're trying to argue that this is not a feature of the product. And our argument is that it absolutely is. Uh, we think it's a great feature that you should be able to swap out one condensing system for another, uh and just charge for installation, uh, for charge for installation, for labor and uh, for the product, uh, rather than having to go through these additional steps and essentially modifying a home. I think that's a great feature because the customer saves a lot of money that way and then on top of that their home is comfortable. Uh, uh, so uh, that's some of the things that we're dealing with. I think it ties into the broader issue of uh, gas bans that we've been seeing, uh, particularly in California, uh, it's also coming up in Colorado, uh, in New York, uh, in Massachusetts, uh, to a certain extent as well, uh ties into this broader effort to uh, decarbonize. Right. So they're coming after non condensing and then eventually those condensing gas products uh, aren't going to be good enough uh, for the other side either.

Speaker B: And out here in California you put those into the multi unit perspective and that just raises the cost of rent and living in California.

Speaker C: So and a lot of those regulations, especially with the you know, the energy efficient, there's tax credits that come with those but a lot of those are potentially expiring right at the federal level

Speaker D: they've been frozen like at ah, like at the very least they've been frozen. All right. And so um, California I believe had already had their IRA rebate funds released to them uh, from doe, um, so did Maine and New York. So the states that got in early, put in their applications early and got that federal money, you know that money's already been spent and you know either way they probably weren't going to get any more. So the states that still had pending applications, they're not going to be able to take advantage of that. And so um, I know that California you still have some other state, state level rebate programs in place to incentivize heat, uh, pump installations and you know, to the extent that, that it works, I mean great. There's nothing wrong with heat pumps. And California has a climate that's you know, more conducive to, to, to heat pumps, you know, uh, you know, makes more sense there. But you know you're seeing this push in places like in the Northeast, uh, where you know you have older homes, uh where people took advantage of the rebates not understanding that, uh, having a heat pump, uh, you know, uh, in, you know, in the wintertime, you know, it just wasn't, wasn't keeping up. You know, with the exception of maybe you're running a multi zone, Right. But then you have, you know, mini splits in multiple parts of the house. Um, and so whatever you're not using in gas or heating oil or propane, you know, you're using in electricity. Um, so, uh, and those systems tend to be more expensive. But if you're running like, you know, central, you know, if you're running like a central air heat pump system in a New England home that's old and doesn't have the upgrades that are necessary, uh, to sort of restrict heat loss, you know, uh, what we're seeing there is a lot of dual fuel systems, uh, that our contractors are working on. So you have that heat pump to get them through sort of the milder transitions to the cold winter, uh, and then they switch to heating oil or propane gas to the extent they have access to it outside of the major cities. Um, and that seems to work fine. Right. Because heating oil is pretty expensive too, especially now with oil prices going up. Um, and so, uh, that seems to be, that seems to be a good solution. There's nothing wrong with heat pump products, but some people prefer gas.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker C: So not to get totally defeatist, for lack of a better term, like the, the end is nigh so to speak, with these regulations coming in. There are solutions. There are, um, opportunities, you know, are there opportunities that contractors can take advantage or, you know, do they adopt extra training for their techs and this new technology? Is there, you know, are there any solutions to kind of get through these, these ever changing regulations?

Speaker D: Heat pumps, not. Heat pumps aren't new technology. You know, they've been around since the 60s.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker D: So I mean that's already incorporated into, into a lot of, you know, uh, H vac programs. So to the extent that, you know, one of the things we need to understand is that, you know, there has to be sort of a market demand for, for certain products. Right. And, and my understanding is that it's the manufacturers, you know, that, that provide training on those products, um, you know, and certification, whatnot. And so, um, you know, if, if there's, if there's a large market for a certain product or a certain class of products, you know, then it's going to be worth it for the contractor to send his text out, you know, for a couple of days, pull them off the field and get them trained on those new systems. Uh, but at the same time, you know, if, you know, if you don't have a lot of demand for a certain product, you know, why should the contractor take a tech out of the field and send them out for like, you know, whatever multi day training is required. Even if it's just a day to train on a product that they might not install that much or not at all. Uh, so, um, you know, I think, you know, contractors will adapt, right? You know, as, as you see demand for certain products increase and others decrease, you know, there's going to be that training component that's necessary. Um, and so as long as those opportunities are readily available, uh, and convenient, uh, then you know, contractors will do what they need to do to, to get up to speed on those new products, making sure their employees get up to speed on those new products. Um, but again, you know, it's, that's, they can't take all of their guys off the field for like a day or two because you know, they, they have to generate revenue and they have customers that need, uh, that need services right away. You know, customers can't wait for hot water for like a day or two. They can't wait for, you know, cold air in the middle of August, you know, in, uh, in, in, in, in the LA Valley, you know. Uh, so, uh, you know, it's, so it's going to be, that's going to be also an incremental change as well. Like you know, they're going to be able to, if they, if you have a contractor with a lot of employees, they're going to have to sort of phase in that education over time rather than pulling all their guys out of the field at once. So those, those are things that need to be taken into consideration.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: Yeah. This is great info, Mark. Um, you know, just coming from a broad perspective, I just know how structured PHC really does gather a lot of this information between the chapters between each state and then you have your board members that come together to meet maybe more than once a year to um, talk a little bit more about one, what's happening within a community, you know, what's the information that you know, you're gaining on? These are what clients are looking for. This is the new technology that's being invented. Now when, when you gather this knowledge, you're, you're bringing this up to the legislation piece, to the lobby, you know, to lobby and really get them the information. What's the way that a guy in the field can really contribute back to their chapter. If they are a part of phcc to really get you some good insight or something that you feel that would be a good topic for their, you know, region or even the state.

Speaker D: Well, if they have any information that they want to get up to me that's important, you know, they can like, they do that through Taylor, uh, and they'll, they'll do that through, through Whitney, who's the CEO for, for PACC of California. Um, you know, and then they, everyone, every, every PHCC member has, has a direct line to me. If they want to send me an email or give me a call, I always respond. I don't have an assistant and it's, I, they directly. Um, so if there's any kind of information that's important and I need as much information as possible. I need to hear from contractors, I need to hear from their employees. Um, and I need to know everything that's going on in the ground because then I can sort of piece together everything that's going on in different parts of the country to be able to tell the story to lawmakers in making sure that they don't just have an understanding of our industry, but they understand the products, they understand the work that goes into uh, what they do and what, in what the industry trends are. Mhm.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's something that Jeff and I, through the trades podcast we've been able to have so many stories behind the scenes of, you know, really, uh, um, from people to one employee, all the way to 200 employees. You know, that's coming across all different industries and spectrums. But even through phcc, you just see the commitment that, you know, a lot of these smaller companies are really dedicated to the community and these type of changes do absolutely make a huge impact. Um, and this is exactly where I think anybody that's listening out there onto this and you are a PHCC member or not, this is going to be exactly, um, a route that you'd want to know how to get involved with that something that you'd want to do because someone like Mark, he's out there, you know, working his butt off to, you know, really speak the truth and exactly what's happening within the industry.

Speaker D: So, and everything that we're doing, I think, you know, Danny, you touched on a good point. You know, everything that we're doing, uh, benefits all contractors and not just PHCC members. Um, and so we'd love for those, those contractors that are not PHCC members. You know, if you're in San Diego, make sure you Talk to Taylor, uh, and if not, you know, you can talk to Sandy in Greater Los Angeles, you can uh, you know, talk to, talk to Whitney, uh, in Sacramento and uh, be a part of phcc. Ah. Rather than you know, someone on, uh, you know, someone observing, you can actually be a part of it. You know, it's yes, you're benefiting but it wouldn't it be even better if you're actually involved with phcc so that you can, you can uh, have some skin in the game and to be able to offer your own feedback um, so that we can incorporate that into our, into our strategy, into our advocacy.

Speaker B: Mhm, absolutely.

Speaker C: And then for those who are listening that maybe aren't in the state of California and do want to connect with your kind of local or State Peer PHCC, you can go to the national PHCC website, phccweb.org, phccweb.org and they have a map. Uh, you can click on your state and it will list out any local chapters near you or your state and it gives you the contact information to the exec in that area. So you have PHCC resources and access at your disposal kind of wherever you live. Um, you don't have to be in California or San Diego, but they're, you know, we're here for you. And then even if there isn't one in your, you know, specific area, national's there to help as well.

Speaker D: We have um, active state chapters in 38 states and 175 regions. So uh, and then, and even if you don't, even if, even if there is no state chapter in your state, you can be an at large member as well.

Speaker B: So one of the things that we were hoping you'd give us some insight Mark, is seems like you have your ear to not uh, just the plumbing industry, but um, the way the politics side of our country works. And um, there's been a lot of talk about the current administration with AI. Any insight on how AI and the future of plumbing is looking with all

Speaker D: this new, I think the two are integrated. Uh, AI doesn't happen without plumbing. Right. Because that ties into data centers. It's going to tie into the broader subject of data centers. Right. Because it's the data centers that are going to be sort of that source of information of algorithms that AI depends on. And so those data centers as we all know, require an incredible amount of resources. Electricity, water, cool, uh, indoor air, um, those servers need to be sort of in this cool temperature that's not quite a refrigerator. Right. Um, but not quite, you know, an air conditioned home either. And so that's going to require a tremendous amount of energy. It's going to require a tremendous amount of sort of specialized knowledge to be able to design those systems. Um, and what goes into those systems is where our contractors come in because they're going to require water. You got to divert water resources to those data centers. Um, and then of course on the H vac and mechanical side, uh, you need contractors that are going to be able to design and install those systems as well. Last week the White House had hosted, uh, an event with um, the big IT companies, um, including Google, Microsoft, OpenAI and about 40 stakeholders in the room. Uh, a number of them from ibew, they were electrical contractors. PHCC was there. And uh, it was Tony Bertolino, our national vice president. He was the only plumber in the room. Uh, and when, you know, when the president came to make some remarks and the president had made, you know, had made a sort of a, you know, had alluded to what he, and I quote, big beautiful pipes. Right. You know, uh, when he was talking about the plumbing that was required, the president was the only person that mentioned, you know, the necessity of plumbing in these, uh, in these dwellings. And you know, Tony was the only plumber in that room, um, with, with other, with other stakeholders. And you know, the Secretary of Energy was there, Secretary Wright, um, you know, and Speaker Johnson and um. And so uh, it's not just electricity. Electricity obviously plays a huge role in that, right? Where is that electricity going to come from to, to power those data centers? And uh, you know, the, there was sort of a formal memorandum of understanding by those IT companies that they would, uh, that they would work to provide those data centers with their own sources, with their own power plants. And um, so that ties into another issue of what that's going to look like. Is that going to be like all solar and wind? Um, are they going to have their own natural gas generating power plants? Um, you know, or are they going to be, you know, modular nuclear and you know, nuclear reactors also require water. And it um, certainly puts our guys to work. We have members that do work in nuclear power plants around the country as well. Uh, so, um, so that's, you know, plumbing and H Vac are going to play an integral part. Right? The electric, the electrical side provides going to provide the energy, right. To uh, power those, those buildings. And you know, plumbing in H Vac is what's going to be required to maintain those systems and keep them from completely falling apart.

Speaker C: Well, so plumbing And H VAC are essential.

Speaker A: Yes, yes.

Speaker B: Sounds like there might be a job opportunity coming up in the field.

Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, look, placement right now is 6% between plumbing and H vac. Uh, and that's going from the most conservative statistics that I can pull, which is from Bureau of Labor Statistics. Um, I'm sure we've seen a lot of, I've seen a lot of stuff on, on social media. I've seen reports from the private sector, like, from, you know, like companies like McKinsey. Uh, you sort of, they do these, uh, economic reports that are generated by somebody that essentially wants to see, like, wants to sort of quantify, uh, whatever it is they're trying to achieve. Uh, you know, I've seen quotes where we need 150,000 plumbers by next year. Uh, you know, maybe, um, but you know, you can look at the most conservative statistics out there and see that there's still a problem. Okay. So, um, so if you look at BLS data. All right, Bureau of Labor Statistics, between plumbing and H vac between 2024 and 2034, at any given time, this industry needs about 95, just under 95,000 people. Okay. Um, at any given time between between now and 2034, when you looked at the 10 year projections from the previous year from 2023, all right, um, you know, it was, it was anticipated that you would need about 118,000. So we've seen a decline. All right, but the placement rate still hovers around 6%. So even though you, you still have this like, you, you have this sort of reduction, uh, in vacancies, we're still not getting enough people in. Um, I think a lot of what has to do with that is we've got, for every journeyman that comes into the industry, you have about maybe three or four, uh, you know, uh, master tradesmen that, that retire.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker D: Or leave the industry. Um, so, you know, that certainly plays a role in it. I, um, think also that reduction that we've seen over the past year has to do with the fact that what happened four years ago, we had. Or five years ago, right? We had a, ah, pandemic. And so you had a lot of people that actually came into. We saw an uptick in enrollment in our pre apprentice programs. Uh, you know, uh, it almost,

Speaker C: it

Speaker D: went up like, you know, like multiplied by six times the amount of enrollment that we got in. Um, and so that demonstrated just sort of across the building trades, that there was this interest. They saw that we were essential workers. They saw that we, you know, provide well, paying jobs. And so, um, uh, and so I think that that's what sort of, uh, resulted in that uptake. And I think it also didn't, you know, it also helped that we have, you know, a $2 trillion student loan crisis where people are coming out of college with mountains of debt and they don't have a job that either pays enough or they don't have a job that mirrors what they studied in college. And so they need to work. Um, and so we certainly have those opportunities. If, if people are willing to learn, um, they're willing to work hard, uh, you know, then, then, then, then there's a place for you here.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Mark, we cover this, the perspective of, you know, from your young generation, coming even in high school, with some people that we've had that have programs that they're implemented around locally or nationally.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker A: Um, and then we speak to the people that are exiting. There's always that part where we always mention where the demand of people coming in is. Or demand. Or people that are leaving are more than what people are coming in. How do we speak to those folks that are leaving? How can they stay within, you know, PHCC network or even the construction trades network to continue to keep passing along that info? They're master technicians, like you mentioned. What's, what's one route that I'm sure, um, I'm hoping that you can probably speak to that a little bit.

Speaker D: So, yeah, I think, you know, look there, from what I've seen, there's plenty of opportunities from, from the first day of your apprentice program all the way up until, you know, you just, you just want to retire and call it a day. Right. I think the one thing that you have to understand, all right, is that this job can be incredibly taxing on, on. On the human body physically. All right? There's a lot of days where maybe you're working out, uh, you know, outside where it's very hot or it's very cold, you're working in restricted spaces. Your body's often contorted. Even if you're doing something like, like a garbage disposal. Right. A lot of heavy lifting, um, you know, like, you know, especially with water heaters or with, with H Vac equipment when you're doing an install and taking out the old stuff. I mean, it's, it takes a toll on your body. Um, and so, um. But, you know, and I think that's, that's where you start. See people leave, they've retired, they, they saved up enough money. Um, you know, and they're Just they're tired, like physically tired, and they want to enjoy their kids and their grandkids and, and just, you know, live life and certainly not going to hold that against them. But, you know, it doesn't have to end there. You know, for those that, you know, that want to keep doing something else, but maybe they've been physically taxed. You know, there's plenty of opportunities to do stuff. If you're a master contractor, you can just, you know, run the business side of things. Uh, you can become. There's a shortage of instructors. I was just talking about how we have people, we're having a hard time getting people that are interested. You know, I've talked to, I've talked to at least one group in Pennsylvania where it's like they, they. There's, there's too many, there's too many people that want to enroll in their programs, in their VO Tech programs because they don't have enough instructors, they don't have enough classes. They don't have to, they don't have the space. And so these kids have to get wait listed. We don't want to lose them to another industry. Right. So, you know, you know, you can, you can, you can be an instructor. Uh, you know, there's groups are always looking for code officials. States are always looking for code officials, uh, inspectors. I mean, you know, Taylor can tell you how hard it is for our guys to get an inspection. You know, in Californ, we need inspectors. Uh, you know, we have one of our, one of our executives in Massachusetts, Wayne Thomas was, you know, he was a plumber, and then he served on the plumbing board. And, you know, he's also a code official and he's an inspector, you know, and that guy's way past, you know, turning a wrench, but he's still involved with the industry. You know, so he's doing something that he loves and you know, and, and he's still, he's still, you know, bringing in a paycheck too. And there's always, we can always, you know, use, use that income as well. Um, so there is something for everybody, you know, past the point where you can, where, where, where your ability to turn a wrench isn't, isn't as strong as it used to be. So at a certain point, we don't need. Is to stay involved as much as they can.

Speaker C: Don't need the physicality. We need your knowledge and we need your passion. And I mean, I could say it here on the, the local level, the best instructors make for those who you Know, are still so passionate about the industry and want to give back and continue to do so without the actual physical aspects of the job. There's, there's so many ways to get involved. And then we're one of those schools that has, has a wait list, you know, for our pre apprentice program, which is trying to, you know, pump new individuals who are passionate and want to get into our plumbing industry, into the trades. And right now we have about a 200 person wait list because we have one instructor who's working on it. Right. But we, we need funding and we need to be. We need funding, which is another kind of point I wanted to get into. Mark. Um, and then we need, uh, you know, the people to help instruct these future, uh, you know, individuals coming into our industry. We need them to light the fire. Um, but yeah, for funding. Because getting into this workforce development. I know that, uh, the wioa. Yeah, wioa. Uh, I wanted to spell it out for somebody who maybe isn't aware of that, but let's get into it because there's that and then the Perkins grant funding. I know, it's such a beast. And we've been looking at it on the local level in. It's just, it seems so, uh, intangible at this moment. But, uh, hoping there's something for everybody who wants to take part in training. Right.

Speaker D: Yeah, I mean there's, there are programs out there. I kind of feel like, you know, when it comes to, um, when it comes to career education, I, uh, feel like the infrastructure is there, you know, there, you know, it's just, we need, it's imagine like building these awesome highways and then nobody's driving on them.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker D: Which is like the complete opposite of what California deals with. Right. But no, it's, you know, so we, we have programs in place. You know, Department of Labor has registered apprenticeship programs. Right. And so, you know, the DOL certifies those. It goes to process every five years. They offer grant, uh, grants for apprenticeship programs that meet certain criteria, uh, particularly in underrepresented neighborhoods and low and low income communities. Um, you know, and uh, you know, on top of the fact that apprenticeship in general, you know, you bring on an apprentice, uh, you know, employers generally, you know, cover those costs. Right. And then, you know, whatever, whatever the cost is incumbent upon, upon the apprentice is pretty minimal. Right. Compared to college, they're coming out of their program with, you know, very little or no debt in a job. And you know, and so, uh, I think that's one of the things that we need to Emphasize there. Uh, that's one example of a framework that's in place that works very well just as it is. Um, and then, you know, barring that, we do have a lot of states where, uh, apprenticeship, um, is not, uh, you know, is not something that's required for H vac. Right. Um, there's some states that require it. You know, Maryland is one state that requires, you know, at least a four or five year apprentice program. Um, you know, unless you're, unless you, you go with the union, in which case, like, you know, that you're gonna, you're gonna go into apprentice program regardless of what state you're in. Um, but barring that, you know, there's, there's ways to get in there. We have, you know, contractors in Virginia, H vac contractors in Virginia that'll train on the job. Right. Um, or they'll recruit people out of a VO Tech or a community college, um, you know, pick them up at a career fair or something like that, um, and then, and then finish off their training on the job. Right. Or just offer them a job and get them out in the field. Um, and so, you know, for those employers that are willing to do that if they can, if they talk to their local workforce board, right, or state workforce board, and, you know, make sure they establish that H vac, uh, is an in demand field, which is not a difficult thing to do. Um, and, um, then they get on the employer training, uh, provider list or etp. Um, when a workforce board brings job seekers in, they'll assess their skill set, and if they determine this is someone that might be good for H vac, they'll send them to an employer, um, so that the employer can train them on the job. And then that comes with a grant of up to $5,000 or maybe a little bit more. And it's not just employees also that also works for apprentice programs like what Taylor runs. Uh, so, um, you know, so, you know, but you know that that program is long overdue for reauthorization. It hasn't been reauthorized since 2014 and still in place. You know, but a lot has changed since then. There's, uh, funding formulas where a lot more money goes to administrative tasks as opposed to actual grants. And so we'd like to see that calculation shift so that more money is going to grants and less money goes to administrative costs. Uh, we'd also like to see something where the employers, uh, could, could, could provide a role in the skills assessment. Right. I, uh, you know, I imagine there's been A number of times where a workforce board would send a job seeker to, to someone like an H VAC contractor, they say, yeah, this guy has, has the skill set for H Vac. And you know, when the contractor trains them on the job or one of his, one of his techs trains that person on the job, they det. Actually, you know what? Maybe not. Or maybe this guy isn't a good fit for a company. Right? And so by allowing the employers to, to, to. To provide that assessment, you know, they're assessing someone on a specific skill set that they know better than anybody else. So first they'll, um, they'll know whether or not this person would do well in H Vac based on their own experience. And then, number two, they can also determine whether that person is, is a good fit for their company. Um, so that, you know, uh, the, you know, the workforce board doesn't run the risk of sending any duds. Right? So that's one other thing that we'd like to see achieved in reauthorization. Um, and there is legislation out there that we're supporting, uh, you know, uh, the, uh, Employer Directed Skills act, who's sponsored by Senator Budd, uh, of North Carolina. Um, and so, uh, you know, we'd like to see that happen for WIOA on Perkins. You know, this is about $2 billion a year that goes to secondary, uh, schools, uh, whether it's like, you know, public high school, you know, shop programs of whatever type, or going to vocational high schools. Um, and, um, you know, one of the issues there is that, you know, I've talked to employers where they see these high school students that do very well, and this guy, like, I want to get this guy as an apprentice. When he graduates, he's going to have a head start on everybody else. He's going to be awesome. And then they graduate high school and then they go to college.

Speaker C: College.

Speaker D: Right. And so, you know, got on them for going to college. I'm not going to. But, you know, we, we lose that person, someone that has like this sort of baseline skill set, someone that's demonstrated that they do well, and we lose them. So how do we, how do we, you know, uh, you know, mitigate that? And there is legislation, uh, sponsored by Congresswoman McClellan of Virginia, um, that would, you know, establish. It would. It would amend the Perkins CTE act to establish a directory of employers and resources within the specific, you know, within the specific fields, uh, you know, under Perkins, you know, career and technical education, uh, so that those, those kids that are in high school they're getting ready to graduate, they have this directory where they can go and they can find an employee, they can find resources so we can maintain that continuity uh, as they go out into the real world. Um, and then of course Pell Grants traditionally used for, for four year colleges and universities. Um, you know with the one big beautiful bill act that passed last year, um, that opens up Pell Grants for short term in demand job training. About 150 to 600 hours perfect for H Vac. Right. Because since those guys are going to accredited votecs and community colleges, they could do that on a Pell Grant. All right. And then once they get through that program like they're paid for. Right. So um, those are a number of different ways like funding to get people in. So we just need people that are interested and, and we need to keep those doors open

Speaker C: and scholarship opportunities as well. There's ample scholarship opportunities out there.

Speaker D: Yeah. Foundation offers scholarships, our auxiliary offers scholarships. Um, and just make it just whatever financial barriers we can minimize or remove altogether.

Speaker C: I have a two part question. I guess this is kind of rapid fire now, right? Because we're getting close to time. Yeah, I'd love to hear three. We already talked about kind of a workforce. We've, we've heard, we talked about energy. What are three other kind of big topics, um, kind of in, in a concise way that are affecting our industry currently like in, and are currently in the legislature.

Speaker D: I mean that, that, that, that depends, a lot of it depends on what state you're in. Right. Um, I think federally our big issues are always going to be workforce and it's going to be energy. Right. To a lesser extent labor. Um, you know, and then you know, depending on what state you're in, you know, obviously we, our members value the importance of licensing. Ah, we value the importance of building codes. You know, some states that's going to be under threat and you know, our chapters there, you know, push back to the extent that they can. Um, you know uh, appliance regulations are not going to go away anytime soon. You know even under this administration there's already stuff that's, that's going into place, uh, that was initiated by, by the previous administration. Uh, so um, you know you have states like Colorado that are getting ready to implement zero knock standards for home appliances. Uh, and uh, so it just, you know it's, there's, there's a lot going on. New uh, York is, you know they're uh, you know under a law called part 494. Uh, they are, you know, already implementing a three refrigerants. Right. When we just finished the phase through to A2LS like R454 and R32. Um, and now they're already. New York is already saying you can't use that anymore. You got to switch to A3s. Um, and so obviously that like, decimates the market there. There's a lawsuit going on in New York as well. So, um, you know, just federal level, anything having to do with, with energy, we want to see modernization of the Energy Policy and Conservation act, strengthen preemptive language so that, you know, states like California, um, you know, and Colorado don't try to, you know, get around regulating appliances through gas bans.

Speaker C: So now, now how can someone listening, a contractor, plumbing, get involved or help or be a part of this in a bigger way? And I.

Speaker D: So yeah, no, we have, we have our legislative conference May 5th and 6th. It's open to everybody. Right. I'm going, yeah, Taylor's going to be there. Um, it's open to everybody. Any contractor in the plumbing or H vac space, um, you know, uh, is welcome to register and to join phcc, uh, to uh, go up to Capitol Hill. We arrange all the meetings. You'll meet with your lawmakers in the House and the Senate and their members of staff. Uh, we have educational programming in place to get you up to speed on all the issues and get a sense of what the regulations are going on in Washington that's having an impact on your business. Um, and you network with other contractors. Um, and that's the best way is to just to show up. Now 80% of anything is showing up, right? I've heard 50%, you know, but you just, if you, if you can do anything, it's show up.

Speaker C: So again, that's May 5th and 6th in Washington D.C. it's the legislative conference. You can Google PHCC Legislative conference or you can go to PHCC national site again phccweb.org for information and how to register. There's a room block. Uh, it's two days, uh, kind of at the Capitol.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I think, I think through the trades. Yeah, we, we've been able to see just how fulfilling it is. And um, when we have fulfilling topics like this and for anybody that's listening and you're, you know, you're put in some time, you probably have a career within the trades and you're looking for something a little bit more in depth to really help out the trades and help out your community. This is a whole nother level that you can go out there and you can absolutely get involved. This is, this is a key piece where again, you know, if you're already feeling fulfilled, looking for something else within the trades, this is exactly how you get involved. So Mark, it's been just amazing one for you to come in with some topics and Taylor tag teaming with us to really throw out some hard questions as well and um, really important topics and important questions that I think we all need to one share with everybody and be able to, you know, have these conversations, you know, openly. Uh, I know it's a lot of, you know, uh, it's a lot, it's a lot to handle. But um, it's, I think like you mentioned, just showing up and being there as a community can really uh, uplift a lot of what we talked about today. So thanks again, Mark. This is awesome.

Speaker B: Of course, Appreciate it.

Speaker D: Pleasure to be here. Thank you.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So again, yeah, shout out again, Taylor. Uh, um, any information where they can find, I think you said phccweb.org phcc

Speaker C: web.org web.org legislative conference is May 5th and 6th.

Speaker D: It's under the advocacy tab.

Speaker C: Yes, under advocacy tab on the homepage if you need to find it or just Google PHCC Legislative Conference. It's the first thing that pops up. Um, that's a great opportunity. If you're in California or a lot of the PHCC states do their own state one as well. So if you want to do Washington D.C. on the national, the federal level, great. Also you can do the state level too, which is really important. Like Mark said, California's got some things rocking and rolling over here. So on the west coast.

Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely. And we're calling out to everybody out there. So if you're not a part of phcc, of course, reach out to the chapters and get some more information. But this is the trades podcast. We're super excited for everybody to be listening in and uh, um, uh, we hope that you can like this, share it with anybody because these are important topics and uh, don't shy away from it. If uh, anything, you know that you're impacting every day that you're out there working and uh, Mark's definitely appreciates it. Taylor appreciates it. We appreciate it. So thank you all.

Speaker C: We're here for you guys. Thank you.

Speaker B: Thanks.

Speaker D: Thanks everyone.