45. Glenrinnes Distillery: From rebrand to relaunch, and taking Speyside beyond whisky

Speaker A: Spirits fans will likely know Speyside in Scotland for its world class whiskies. But there's one distillery that's showing a different side to the Scottish region and that's Glenrinners distillery, which is showing Speyside can also make brilliant clear spirits like vodka and gin. After taking a little time out to rethink its branding and marketing strategy, Glenrinus is back with eight Lance vodka and gin. The same delicious award when in liquid, a brand new packaging design, many lessons learned and even bolder ambitions. Keep listening to hear more from founder Alex Christie. Alex, welcome to the Spirits Business podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today to chat all things vodka and gin.

Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm so glad we have reconnected this year because we met so many years ago in the industry.

Speaker B: Yeah, well you were one of the first people to come up to Glenriddis Distillery, uh, when we launched and um, uh, that was a while ago now. So. Yeah, absolutely. It's good to kind of reconnect, see, see what's been going on and where we are now.

Speaker A: Yeah, and I loved that visit and I really remember it fondly, the kind of couple of days that we spent up there. But yeah, it's been a little while since we have heard from you and from eight lands. So what have you been up to in that time?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean we, we haven't vanished, we've still been around. I think the thing that's probably recognizable is that we did intentionally pare back on our marketing activity and it was because we had changes going on and we wanted to keep our powder dry as they say, so that when we were ready we could start investing again, start making a bit more noise. But we, we have been active um, in some markets. So we, I think prior to this year, um, when maybe we hadn't been in touch so much, we went back into America, we dipped our toe in before. It hadn't quite worked out with the partner we were with. I can go into details if you're interested why. But we, we have gone in with a bit more strategy, uh, and again more investment and already that's working really well for us. Similarly, we started work with a new to US uh, importer in Shanghai. So it's our first step into China. So there's been a couple of international bits going on domestically. Here in the UK things have been a bit quieter again because in our home market where we'd normally be most active, we, we, we haven't been spending much, we haven't been as active. We have been doing the occasional trade show or supporting events for charities and other things. And similarly we have been available via some of our stockists, you know, some of the five star hotels that originally stocked us, um, some of the leading cocktail bars. We've been, you know, their martini of the the season or whatever it might be the month. So we've been available and we've been out there but we have been quiet and I think it's because fundamentally we knew we wanted to refresh things not in terms of the liquid because we've always been happy with that and you know we've won some awards with yourselves and that's been something that we've been able to lean on over the years and say that, you know, the liquid is good because as we all know if people aren't able to try it, you need to give them a little bit of an incentive to say no. Legitimately this is good. But the packaging was something that we were getting feedback on that we needed to update and, and knowing that we were going to have a relaunch of sorts, we thought we would just step back, get our ducks in a row and then kind of come out all guns blazing.

Speaker A: Amazing. And we've got the bottles in front of us today and they do look beautiful. Just going back to what you were saying about the us and the distribution, that didn't quite work out for you there because I always think it's interesting to hear brand speak openly about things that didn't quite go right for them and I always think it's a lesson learned and good advice for others. Are you able to go into.

Speaker B: Yeah, I can and I'm not going to mention any names or anything but we went into New York quickly followed by California with a distributor, importer distributor. That wasn't identical ownership between the two coasts, but there was connection. I think the first challenge was that the person who brought us into the portfolio in New York left before our uh, stock landed there. And, and I'm not convinced that the buy in to our uh, brand and how they would work it was organization wide. I don't think everyone had really bought into that. So that was a bit of a sticking point for us. And uh, me and one of our former colleagues went out there and we went and did a portfolio tasting thing that they were hosting with some of their other brands and we were feeling very positive and we went around some on trade and the feedback was very good but it never really took off. From there, the California thing was interesting. We were dealing with somebody different. And again, a visit later, we discovered that they weren't really comfortable and their background was very much in wine. And they were very open and we had a very good conversation. And, you know, there's mutual respect between both parties. They weren't really quite sure how to work a white spirit brand from Speyside in Scotland. And we looked at ways that maybe we could, uh, support them. You know, whether that was me going over more or looking at other ways to help them with their marketing efforts. But in the end, we decided it was best just to, uh, part company. And eventually I ended up buying the stock back and waiting for the moment to be right to go back into the market. At which point we have gone just into the east coast now. And since it was easter last year, 2025, that we went into New Jersey and Washington, D.C. and Maryland and Florida, following towards the end of the year. And it's quickly become our biggest market, the U.S. um, we're seeing a lot of positivity over there, a lot of interest in the spirits. I think in the story in the liquid. We're very conscious that it's a, uh, tough market. And if you look at where gin in particular ranks in terms of US spirits, consumption is pretty far down the list. I think it's like sixth or seventh or something. And people talk about growth, but we still see opportunity there and we are seeing growth over there.

Speaker A: I think it's almost no bad thing that it's not quite established. Gin as a category isn't quite as established in the US as it is, say here in the UK or markets like Spain that are very mature gin markets. Kind of going through a little bit of that fatigue now, I think off the back of such a big boom for the category. And it's a conversation I've been having recently with, with other people. The industry that actually looking at those underdeveloped markets is often where there is so much opportunity.

Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. And I think that's, you know, one of the interesting things is looking at the nuance market by market, and how a given spirit or category is perceived. And certainly going into a market like China, where gin and Volcker are not dominant spirits necessarily have, and how we're having to communicate there versus how we do it with the vodka and the gin in the US maybe in slightly different ways. And then as you say, somewhere like the uk where we're seeing a, uh, different situation from when we launched, um, in June 2019, already, things were booming. There were some brands that had, you know, risen very quickly with that, um, you know, increase in demand. And it has been challenging here as well. I think we probably did the right thing by not going too niche or bringing out too many different SKUs and, you know, seasonal variations and things. I think strategically for me, from the beginning, I wanted to be known for making a really good Volker and a really good gin. And I think until that is something that is recognized far and wide, it doesn't make sense to muddy the water too much and make it difficult for either trade or consumers to understand what we actually stand for.

Speaker A: And I think your approach to the US and how you had to kind of reevaluate how you were working there, pull back and then re enter, is such a good example of the importance of having really good communication and relationships with your business partners in other markets. And for me, as someone on the outside who's not someone building a brand, like, quite a brave move to be like, actually, we're gonna come out and rethink how we're doing this and then go back in. Did. Did it feel quite scary at the time to do that?

Speaker B: I think initially there was a reticence to give up at all, and hence why I was looking at ways to work with the existing partner to see how everyone could be happy. So you kind of initially think, oh, gosh, we failed in this place. You know, that's not quite worked. I think going back in, we are a more mature organization since then, and that's made it a bit easier. The people we have on our team, the people that we're working with in the US the relationships are good. There's a lot of maturity there. There's a lot of experience there. So I think the confidence was there to try again. And recognizing we actually had stock in the market already that we hadn't pulled back to the uk, uh, it was warehouse. It felt very much like, let's have a go. And, um, we do see opportunity, and we did beforehand. So it was probably less scary going back in than it was coming out, if that makes sense.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Let's go back to the. The bottles and the redesign, because I know that's big. Been a big thing that you've been working on behind the scenes. So can you go into a bit more detail about why you wanted to redesign the look of Eight Lands and how you landed on this current packaging?

Speaker B: Absolutely, yeah. It's simple, really.

Speaker A: We.

Speaker B: So, uh, uh, as you well know, Eight Lands is named after the fact you can See eight counties from the top of Benris Mountain, on a clear day, which sits just behind our distillery, we're in this beautiful place. It's, uh, a glen called Glenriss. So we're between Dufton, where you've got all these amazing whisky brands. You've got Balvoni, Glenfiddick, Mortloch. The other end of our glen, you basically get to Glenlivet. And then on the other side of Benriss Mountain, you've got Abelauer, Macallan. You know, we're in this amazing place and aside from whiskey, it's known for its beauty as well. And this time of year in particular, when the heather's got that lovely purple color on the mountain, we've got some great wildlife there. And that's always been a big part of our identity. And I think that, uh, some of our partners, or prospective partners, maybe importers we were speaking to, were quite vocal about this and saying, we love your brand story. We like the sense of place, we love the water story, we like the family story and we love the liquidity. But when we look at the bottle, this is not coming across to us. And it was essentially this weak link for them when considering to take us into their portfolio. And it would have been remiss of us not to listen to our customers or potential customers to try and make amends to that. So we'd had the previous label for a number of years and it felt like a good moment to reassess things and to try and bring that story, that story of place to life on the bottle. And we have done that, I think. And, you know, the two labels are slightly different, but there's a lot of illustration on there. We work with an illustrator, we work with Stranger and Stranger as well, uh, who obviously did all the design work and they helped us find the right illustrator. But we've really delved into the flora and fauna. We've got the shape of Ben Rinnis. You've got this kind of cutout, which is supposed to be the profile end of the distillery, which is this kind of harsher shape almost against, uh, the beautiful background, but is where we sit, our logo. And the feedback has been excellent. And I think people now understand a little bit more about the brand story when they pick up the bottle. And it gives it a different shelf presence, particularly recognizing that things have moved on in the market. What might have once stood out on the shelf when we launch maybe doesn't in the same way now.

Speaker A: And for me, it's quite timeless in the design like, it feels like it could really kind of have longevity and how you've redesigned it, but it's not too shouty or out there and really speaks to what you guys stand for at the distillery. And, you know, Speyside in Scotland, where your distillery is based, is renowned for Scotch whisky around the world. And this has always been a part of your story that I found really fascinating in terms of that you decided actually, why not show the space? I can also make beautiful, clear spirits as well. Can you tell us a little bit more about the story and the inspiration behind the brand?

Speaker B: Absolutely. I think, you know, we moved to Scotland, to Glenwrinis. You know, the family home that we moved to when I was 13 years old is still the family home. Now. Um, I'm not there as much as I used to be, but that's where we all congregate and, you know, have our Christmases and my parents are there a lot. So I kind of, as a teenager, I came of age drinking with these distilleries all around. So I remember very early on going to do the Glenfiddick tour and you sadly had to have an orange squash at the end of it instead of a whiskey because I was too young. But the smell in the air around us, recognizing it was a huge part of the local industry and employment as well. So it was always there. Uh, I think many years later when I started working for my family, uh, on some other things. I'd always known we had freshwater springs on the estate and I had it almost drilled into me visiting whisky distilleries over the years, that the water source and the spring water is always a key ingredient and it's always a key part of the story. So I was really interested in what we could do with that. And at the same time, I was working in London and I was seeing lots of Scottish spring water in hotels and restaurants, and I thought, should we be doing water? But obviously, gin was booming or starting to boom at the time. This was, I think, when I first started looking at the idea, it was maybe late 2015, and gin seemed more exciting than, um, the water. And then we looked at the springs we had on the estate. We had spring flow surveys done to make sure that we wouldn't, you know, run out of water. We had botanical surveys done to see what kind of abundant botanicals were growing on the estate. And we went through the motions from there up until the point where we decided it would be a good idea to build, uh, five and a half thousand square foot distillery with visitor capability to try and go for something that's not. Not what you call a large distillery, but is maybe a step above what you would consider a stereotypical craft distillery. So going for this kind of middle ground, that would give us capability of growing when we needed to, when the demand for our products grew. And, um, yeah, it's been a really interesting journey and I think those early

Speaker A: stages were particularly exciting and they're two very competitive categories. We already spoke a little bit about certain market maturity for gin. What convinced you that there was still room for another premium gin and vodka brand?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's a good question. Uh, and, um, I'm going to reference whisky, actually, just as part of my answer, because we were talking about whisky there and I didn't quite answer that. Actually, the reason we didn't do a whisky was because everyone was doing it so well around us. There's this amazing history and heritage. But if you look today in, let's say, if you're going to a duty free, if you're going on holiday this summer or whenever, the amount of whiskeys in there versus the amount of gins and vodkas, and people think that gin is tough. I mean, whiskey is tough as well, and there's lots of new distilleries opening. But at the time, gin was very much in growth. Um, vodka was different. Uh, the reason, everyone wonders why we did a vodka, but actually, if you looked at the figures, this 20, 15, 16, 17, vodka was flat. Uh, and it'd been flat for a long time. It's pretty much flat still. But it was at a much higher level of volume than gin was. Gin was still in the ascendancy at this time. So it felt like, on the one hand, there was still growth potential with gin. On the other hand, there was a space in my mind within vodka for people to approach it the way that people were approaching gin and have been doing for decades with whisky, which is who's made it, what's gone into it, provenance, the authenticity. And it didn't feel like that was really there in vodka in the same way that it was in other categories. So we felt there was an opportunity in vodka in taking our approach, bringing a bit of character to the liquid, looking at our, uh, place, again, that sense of place. And similarly with the gin, it was a really interesting market because you had different tiers, if you will, you had the high volume, very consistent products that, uh, maybe didn't always have the, I guess, the transparency that maybe consumers are starting to look for in terms of who's behind it, what's gone into it, etc. And I think they've ramped up since then. You had at the other end, maybe the craft distilleries, that some were excellent but some are very inconsistent. And that meant that you could try a bottle from one batch and it'd be very different from a bottle in the other batch. And then there was this kind of middle ground, if you will, which is where we wanted to sit, where you're drawing on the production methodology and uh, operating procedures, et cetera, that will give you the consistency and quality, but also leaning into some of the messaging that was coming out of the craft movement.

Speaker A: It's interesting to hear you talk from that perspective and I think the kind of flavour wise part is great for us to have a little taste of these products while we continue talking. So maybe we start with the vodka, just even from what you were saying about creating m the flavour. So how did you develop kind of the style and flavour that you wanted for this product?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, we did something for both actually. So we started developing the recipes, uh, with uh, an external partner before we actually finalized the plant design. So we wanted our distillery, uh, in terms of the plant and the equipment to be totally designed for making the best volcker and the best gin we could. So rather than putting everything in place, then working it out, we did it the other way around, which I think is quite unusual. Um, the vodka was, in some ways, it was a trickier one because vodka is essentially, uh, you know, a flavourless spirit. And the easiest thing for us to do would be to just run some GNS through our system and put some water in it and say we've made a vodka. We wanted to do something more than that, both in terms of creating something that was delicious and smooth and had a little bit of character and a reference to where we are geographically. But also in terms of the honesty of the process as well. There's something different that could pique people's interests, whether that's enthusiasts or bartenders. So we do something a bit unusual, I think, with our, uh, vodka, which is we do use, um, as a kind of backbone or a foundation, if you will. Everything's organic, I should say. So we have a wheat based, neutral spirit, but we work also with a local brewery and we've got a bespoke recipe made of malted barley, which is our nod to whiskey malted, uh, wheat, unmalted wheat and two types of yeast. So the brewery creates this wash for us and we finish it off in our distillery in terms of the fermentation and then we distill that to low wine so it's more stable than the wash. And when that's ready, we blend some of that with the high strength wheat based spirit and some of our spring water in our thousand litre still, which is called Rebecca Off My Wife, and we run it through our two 10 plate columns and then we condense it down. We use our spring water obviously to cut it. We do a very gentle chill filtration at about 4 degrees. So not too crazy but just to smooth uh, off any, any rough edges. And we've ended up with something that we bottle at 42%. It's, to me it's delicious. Even as we're drinking it now at room temperature, you get some of those cereal notes, you get this lovely natural viscosity as well, which I think comes through both our distillation equipment and our process. But also that front end we do with the wash, which brings a lot of that character to set us aside a little bit from what would be a totally tasteless vodka.

Speaker A: I've just had a little sip and it's, it is one of those vodkas that does kind of debunk that assumption that vodka doesn't have any flavour but it's not a flavored vodka. But there is so much character there when you sip it.

Speaker B: Yeah. And you can tell it's coming from the cereal as well. Although it doesn't have, uh, how do I put this? It's got a sweetness that you maybe wouldn't expect when you think of cereal. And it's on the nose, it's on the mouth as well and you get that syrupy finish which I think is lovely and it works really well. We've got, you know, I've got friends who keep a bottle in the freezer, others have martinis from it. We wanted to make it so that it was versatile. If you want to have it with soda water and loads of lime squeezed in, or you want to have it with coke or iron brew, so be it. I would never judge anyone on how they would drink it, but I still think, I often think about spirits like a meal. If you're making a meal, let's say you're having steak with some potatoes and peas, you're probably going to put a little bit more thought into the quality of the steak and where that comes from because that's the kind of the linchpin, the key bit of the meal than you would maybe the vegetables. And I think of our, uh, spirits like that, you Know, if that is a key element of a cocktail or a mixed drink, then it doesn't matter what you're doing with it. You know that that fundamental ingredient is really, really good quality.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's a very, very lovely product. And then if we think about the gin.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Did you approach that differently?

Speaker B: We did not in terms of process. So we worked with the same consultant, um, uh, uh, prior to finalizing our distillery equipment. And we did 15 iterations of both gin and vodka recipes. And they were done in rounds of five. So we would do five, we would hone down, we'd do another five and then a, uh, final five. And there was a final tweak for each one. And each stage we tested with bartenders in London, family and friends, family, business. You know, first and foremost we wanted something. My stepfather, who's my business partner in this, uh, and you know, it's his land as well. So, you know, we did this together. We wanted something both for the vodka and gin that we would enjoy and we wanted our friends to enjoy it. And getting the bartender feedback was really interesting as well because we were almost always aligned. And the final tweaks they made were on strength. So the gin, the final point was at 44, and we took it up to 46 on their recommendation. But in terms of the actual recipe for the gin, we didn't want to use the same complex spirit that we have with the vodka because actually you almost want more of a blank canvas. And it's about the recipe and the botanicals and obviously the distillation and the water. So again, everything's organic. It's a, uh, wheat based spirit and it's about the botanicals. So we've gone for a traditional London dry and we referenced both what was good out there in the craft side, but also in the more established side. So if you think of something like Tanqueray10 as being one of the leading premium London dry gins out there, that was something that was in our kind of basket of reference points. Uh, number three, for example, um, and lots of Scottish gins as well, because we wanted to look at what was going on there and have some locality to it. We did something similar for the vodka as well. So we've got lots, uh, of juniper, we've got fresh lemon peel, fresh lime peel, which, uh, Martin and Susan peel by hand at the distillery. We have coriander seed, a little bit of chamomile. Key ingredients really are those plus the locally foraged ones, which was very important to us. And I said earlier we did this botanical survey and we wanted to look at stuff that was there in abundance. We didn't want to be decimating what was around and affecting the environment negatively. So we landed on wood sorrel, which is essentially a clover type looking plant, super citric, almost sherbety. So it adds to the citrus you get from the lemon peel, the lime peel, and that kind of grassy citrus you get from the coriander seed and just brings this kind of zing of sharpness to it in a really nice way. And the other botanical we wanted to bring, this, uh, kind of tart, fruity note is cowberry, which is essentially what you might call lingonberry in Scandinavia. And it is tartan fruity. It's, you know, something we forage seasonally and it balances off everything really well. So it's 10 botanicals, it's distilled, uh, you know, same, uh, way more or less. We've got our thousand liter pot still. It's a combination of overnight maceration, but we've also got a large vapor infusion basket. So some of the more delicate botanicals go through there and the vapor goes through it. We can bypass the columns, but we actually use eight plates of one of the columns as two template columns just to rectify and purify it even further. Which again, I think is quite unusual to have these, you know, overnight maceration, vapor infusion rectifying as well. And then condense it back down our uh, spring water again and that very low level chill filtering and we end up with this beautifully perfumed product. I hope you'll agree with when the, when the team are distilling and you walk into the distillery, it's so nice. I just love the smell of it. Uh, even my 8 year old son says, can we make candles from it? He's, he's uh, thinking like a businessman already, which is nice. But yeah, we're really proud of it. And again, it was made to work in all the classics, whether it's a gin and tonic. You know, my great, uh, my grandmother, great grandmother, think about my son. Uh, my grandmother, who's in her 90s, still likes a gin and tonic. And I wanted it to be recognizably a gin, not something that had tons of, you know, lavender or something in it that would skew it in a slightly different direction. I wanted it to work in a Negroni and a martini. And hence why the bartender testing element was really important to us.

Speaker A: And you definitely can see how versatile this could be in, in the cocktail world. And the Aroma. When I first put my nose into it, it's so vibrant, so juniper, so citrusy, like, really, really beautiful. It's got a great texture to it as well, actually.

Speaker B: It does. And that's all natural. And, you know, we. We don't. It's just the way we make it. We don't add anything to it to try and smooth it off. You get that same syrupy smooth. We've actually started, you, uh, know, with our new look and our new packaging saying wildly smooth, because we're in this quite wild spot in Scotland. And it does surprise people, both spirits, particularly with the gin being at 46%, how smooth it is. And again, we're drinking it here at room temperature on quite a warm day, and it goes down very easily.

Speaker A: Yeah. And what I love about both of these as well, and I guess the broad ethos of Glenrinas Distillery is how much you do kind of get a sense of the place of where these products are made. And it's clear from our conversation today, like, how much consideration went into the local land, the community or your partners with the brewers, etc. And I love that. That's really shown all the way through to the packaging design and the little nods on the label.

Speaker B: Yeah. Uh, and, uh, it is important to us. And, you know, we are obviously bringing in some of the ingredients. We don't grow many lemons and limes, for example, in Scotland, so there's always going to be an external element or influence. But we work with local steel manufacturers from the beginning. We're obviously tapping, uh, our most important resource, which is our spring water. And I think, for me, there's a slight gap in the conversation in white spirits about the role water has to play. And it's been there for a long time in whiskey. And I'm conscious that a lot of, uh, gins, for example, are made in urban environments. And maybe it's not something that they're in a position to talk about, but for us, it's this amazing resource. We are just taking what we need. So, for example, for our, uh, chilling for the. When we condense this, the spirit back down into a liquid, the, uh, vapor back down into a liquid, we are reusing the water and chilling it rather than drawing more water than we have to. And it's these kind of environmental decisions where there's balance you have to make. Obviously, we're using energy to chill it, but we're not using too much water. And that for us, yeah, it's a massive part of it. It's really really good water.

Speaker A: Before you got into spirits and founding the distillery, what were you doing prior to that?

Speaker B: So my background, uh, from, from when I studied actually at ah, Robert Gordon's University in Aberdeen was corporate communications and I ended up working in that area. I uh, worked for um, oil and gas contractor as communications manager. I did a similar role for a listed marketing services group here in London. Uh, and I did a few freelance bits as well. And then I started working for my family and my stepdad in particular who's got a number of different business interests and essentially I wanted to learn from. And one of the first things I got involved with was a development of apartments on the Royal Mile in Edinburgh which was partway through. And I kind of got involved partway through which was quite confusing because it was a, it was a difficult build and we ended up running them as service departments for a long time. And it's been really, that was really interesting as well actually. I met some great people doing that and m. It was nice to be doing something in this amazing part of Edinburgh, you know, on the Royal Mile. And it was just something different for me. And it was interesting because I oversaw, we obviously had a project manager but I oversaw the build of our own distillery. So I had these two kind of building things going on at the same time. And it's great how many people are involved in these processes and the attention to detail. You need to make sure nothing slips through the gaps. So I really enjoyed those things. There are a couple of other investments that I was involved in, more passive things and just understanding a bit more about finance. And then eight Lands kind of took over my life a little bit and I've got a couple of other bits I look after, uh, uh, I work, do a little bit uh, with a med tech company which has been really interesting as well. Uh, and looking at actually something that's interesting me more and more is how many parallels there are between different businesses. You know, for example, when it comes to sales, uh, one of the things I've learned very quickly in this industry and it, I think works the same in every industry is people don't like a salesman. They like it when somebody is legitimately from that trade and has been in the trenches if you will. Um, so if you turn up with a suitcase looking like a salesman and you pull out your bottles and you've never worked behind a bar, it's a very different conversation to somebody who's run a bar or been in that sector. Similarly you can look in uh, the medical world or the Pharmaceutical world. People will listen more to somebody who has been ah, an ICU nurse or something like that rather than somebody who is a trained sales inverted commas. So I've really enjoyed trying to learn from different sectors and apply where I can some learnings and hopefully for the benefit of eight Lands.

Speaker A: Can you recall the moment from when eight Lands went from a concept, an idea that you were maybe throwing around and then making that decision that actually this is something that could really have legs and we should pursue it?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean I took the idea to my stepfather and um, he said put a business plan together. So I did uh, I worked with a consultant, um, somebody who's still in the industry who's ex, Harriet Watt. She was excellent. She did a really good report for me to try and help me understand what the market looked like, what the distillation process. You know I was coming in with no background in this and it was you know, something I wanted to do properly and I think particularly having been in the oil and gas sector and seeing this focus on quality control and health and safety that was very much still in my mind and still is today. So I wanted to do everything by the book, planning ahead, making sure everyone's going to be safe and that the quality uh, was consistent. So getting some intel from somebody who'd been in the industry for a while and could help me understand the foundational elements was great. That was useful. Then obviously looking at uh, spirits business uh, and trying to understand what was going on around and about what was working, what wasn't working for people, looking at market reports, all the usual stuff you would do, putting a business plan together. And thankfully um, Alistair, my stepdad said yeah, you know, let's give it a go. And I think he saw the role it could play in the wider estate because we do have livestock uh, farming up there and you know, as, as any farmer will know it's not an easy industry and it's not always, it's not always a successful business being in agriculture in any way. So. And m. There are people who've made great successes of it obviously. But uh, you know we're in this quite remote part of Scotland and we've got cattle and sheep and some deer. But yeah, I think for my stepdad he could see that if and when Eight Lands became successful it could actually feed back into supporting the wider estate and we employ obviously a number of people, farmers, farm, uh, hands etc. And uh, it wasn't just a standalone thing, it was part of that.

Speaker A: What's been the most surprising thing for you since working m in the drinks industry.

Speaker B: Oh, that's a good question. Um, I think probably two things. Firstly, and this is not just drinks industry specific, my stepdad said to me early on, I can't remember how he worded it but he said to be patient and he's built a number of businesses and I never have. And um, this is my first, first thing that I built from scratch and he told me to be patient. You know, these things take time and he still reminds me of that today. And I think in my slight naive mind I thought that this, you know, in three years would be absolutely flying. And you know, what I didn't realize is that we launched in the summer of 2019 and in February Covid appeared and our strategy, ah, to try and build the brand through the entree just fell out at that moment. So you know, you've got to take your time, you've got to, to react to when things change. So that's one, one learning that surprised me really I guess is just how long things take to uh, to get right and how patient you have to be. I think the other thing is how nice everyone is. You know, having been in, in other sectors where it's not so personality driven, there's maybe less passion. I've really loved that and I, you know, I love speaking to bartenders, I love speaking to other distillers, uh, and manufacturers and um, you know, people on your side as well that are telling the stories of what's going on. I just think there's so much, you know, you don't get into this industry if you don't have a passion for it or if you do, you probably won't last very long, but people can see through it. Uh, and I genuinely love what we do and I love speaking to other people about what they do as well.

Speaker A: 100 and I, I totally agree with you on, on both of those parts actually. Like coming from the, the journalism side of things and seeing brands launch and the time that it does take to you know, build traction, um, build your audience, build partnerships in the industry. It's from the outside, you know, brands that seem like they're an overnight success. The amount of times I've interviewed someone and they're like, this is a 20 year overnight success, you know, and it does take a long time to, to really build that credibility as it should do. Right. You need people to trust you and trust the brand and understand what you're doing. But also that second point of how great people in the industry are. It's part of what I love about it as well, is how passionate people are, how many great stories there are to tell. And booze is meant to be fun. It's a social product. It's something that brings everybody together. And I think if you don't love that part of it, if your personality isn't built to be that way inclined, then you're probably in the wrong industry.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I. I totally agree. And I often say to the team, you know, we're not selling anything serious. We might be serious about it, but we've got to have some fun. And I think it's why it's really important to us to. I think with the revamp or the relaunch, as I said earlier, we'd step back from a lot of marketing activity and going forward, a lot of it is about bringing some humanity into the storytelling, doing more events, getting in front of people more, bringing people to us more. Because actually, you know, we are a brand that is built on a message of quality and place, and there's this kind of calmness and gentleness to it. But actually, when we do an event, it's fun. People are chatting, there's a lot of energy there. And I think sometimes you've got to remind people that, yes, there may be a kind of earnest message underneath in the way we approach the product, but it's not steady and dull in terms of the way that we enjoy it. And again, it goes back to this being a family product. And I, you know, some of the tasting sessions we did when we had friends there were great fun. And you can tell the favorite bottles. I still got all the old bottles because some of them are empty. And those are the ones that led our, uh, our, uh, recipe production to a certain route. So, yeah, it's got to be fun.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And, you know, today's consumers do have more choice than ever in terms of what they can drink. What do you think persuades somebody to choose eight lands over, uh, another vodka or another. Another gin?

Speaker B: Well, that's a big question. And it's something we're constantly asking ourselves, you know, as we assess how we. We tell our story and, and, you know, through what media we use, etc. I think fundamentally and particularly when you launch the awards are useful to give some credibility and, you know, ongoing just reminding people that there are people in the industry who know what they're talking about, that are judging your products and that they're up there. That is very use, I think, the biggest challenge and the best opportunity is giving people the chance to taste it. And we were at an event recently, and Martin, who's our distillery manager, and Susan, who's the number two there, were manning the stall and we had a bit of a debrief afterwards, and they said it was really interesting. We had some people that would come to us and they would try and they would do the rounds and they would come back later and say, we liked yours the best. And then they would buy bottle. And we know it's not always easy to, uh, give people an opportunity to try it before they want to order it or buy a bottle. So it's thinking about, you know, how. How else can we tell people that it's worth trying? And there are a couple of ways of doing that, I think. One of which, alongside the awards are, uh, other testimonies of sorts. And whether that's things like Amazon, you know, good reviews on that, or whether it's people within the industry, you know, leading bartenders, et cetera, and looking for that kind of credibility. Even being on menus in key bars can be useful. It doesn't matter if they're high volume or not, but if they're influential bars, it's amazing for us to be able to reference that. And the second part of it is how you tell that story. And one of the things that we've changed with this relaunch is our investment in things like social media, uh, and other forms of marketing. So we've never really spent on social media before, but particularly with something like the US being a growing market for us, that's slightly out of reach. We do have a small team there, but we can't communicate in the same way we can in a domestic market. So actually putting a bit more into telling the fundamentals of the brand story and the quality messaging, the smooth liquid messaging, uh, the family messaging, all of these things we need to do a bit more on. And if we can use social media to do that, great. Um, and then closer to home, it's looking at events as well, and not just trade events, but also consumer events. And we've got this concept, which I'll maybe tell you more about another time, but we want to try and get more consumers to come and enjoy eight Lands on our terms, if that makes sense. So we can serve it the way we like to serve it. We can create that kind of fun environment that we've been talking about and really understanding if we bring people to Glenrinis, we know exactly what it looks like. You've been there. And actually the template of what you did when you came up those years ago still stands. We drive people up to the top of Ben Rinnis. We, you know, we go out and see the animals, etc. We learn about the organic side of things. That's still there. But how do we take that on the road with us? And I think that's a question always asking ourselves. So we've got the liquid. That's great quality. We've got this, you know, alluring brand story, I think, but it's getting that cut through. And it's something that we're still working on, to be honest with you.

Speaker A: And I think it's a very interesting time to see how social media and events today kind of influence how people drink or eat or socialize together. And, you know, you come from a communications background. I work in. In media. And to see the evolution of. Of that side of. Of what we do is quite fascinating and also quite daunting because there's. It moves so quickly and people can scroll through what you've, you know, spent weeks or days working on so quickly. And it's. How are you finding?

Speaker B: Uh, that I'm. I'm not. So it's interesting. I was. I would say I was an early adopter with social media and certainly when I worked in communications and Twitter first came out, and I used to go to tweet ups with other professionals that were working in that sector where you would meet people that were also using Twitter with shared interests. And it's a very different thing today. And I'm not a massive user of it personally. And I think it's been really nice to be able to find good people to outsource that to who understand it better. Uh, possibly who are younger than me. Well, they definitely are younger than me. Um, and who kind of know the changing algorithms and what this means and what, you know, if we're spending money here, what actually are we looking for in terms of results? But I'm also very conscious that it is just one touch point for a consumer or for somebody in the. Well, people in the trade are consumers. You know, they don't always need to be looked at differently, but things like being in a list of top 10 gins to try this summer, or, you know, the PR side still has a role to play. Um, I think as a young brand, the trade, PR side and, you know, working spirits business is really, really good because, you know, you guys have a great reach, including to America, which is fantastic because we've got a big role to play still in terms of Reaching distributors, buyers, bartenders, uh, et cetera. And it's as ever, it's that kind of push and pull. You want to push your message out there, but you want people going into a bar obviously and saying, can I have eight lands? But you also want bartenders saying, I want that product in my bar. So yeah, PR is important, events are important. I think just being active and reminding people you're there. And as you said at the beginning of the conversation, we hadn't really been visible for a while. And whilst that was intentional from a, uh, budgeting point of view and a forward planning point of view, it was, it did have a clear impact on sales. I would say there was a correlation there and I was comfortable with it because I knew the reason for it. But these things do make a difference.

Speaker A: And so then at what point did you make the decision that this was the right time for you to become more present, to really, you know, move forwards with the relaunch and getting in front of your audience again?

Speaker B: It just kind of happened organically. Uh, so we brought on a, um, commercial director, uh, senior person, very experienced in the industry, uh, chap called Jose, he's a great guy and he spent a bit of time with us by this point and obviously trying to build out the brand, speaking to a lot of people. And it was him that was really bringing in this feedback from people he knew in the industry, from potential importers about the look of the brand. But actually prior to him joining, that's when I more or less stepped back from marketing because I thought, well look, if we're hiring for someone who's senior, who's bringing all this experience, who's going to drive this change through for us, then he is the person that should be making the ultimate decision on how we allocate these resources and where we spend and we work very closely together, we make a lot of decisions together. And he's very respectful of my background in communications. Um, similarly I'm incredibly respectful of the fact that he's been in the industry for a long time and he knows a lot more than I do. So I think together, you know, we tend to make the decisions and, and it all came about naturally as things played out really. There was, there was no forward looking plan to do it at a given moment. It just happened that way.

Speaker A: Amazing. And then looking forwards, how can we expect to see eight lands expanding? What are your kind of short to midterm, uh, goals for the brand now?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think domestically. So we started working is it a year ago with A, uh, new sales agent in the uk and they've brought a lot of, um, interesting approaches and maturity to the way we're going to do things in the uk and this is going to include getting into more higher volume accounts. So we'd been in a lot of, um, let's say lighthouse accounts before where we were really proud to be, you know, working with some fantastic bartenders in some fantastic hotels and, you know, all these things. And it's great. And we'd love to continue working with them and we'll, we'll continue managing those relationships. But we're also conscious that to grow we need to be in certain bar groups, we need to look at our retail side of things as well. And actually, funnily enough, we have a fairly underdeveloped market in Scotland, which is our real kind of home domestic market. And we've got somebody now who's based in Edinburgh who's working on the brand up there in a sales capacity. And we've never really had anyone dedicated up there before just working on that geography. And it's kind of been a slight frustration for me that we've not got further, uh, into Scotland in terms of our listings. So I think there's just a lot of opportunity still for us, starting from quite a low point in terms of our, uh, growth, uh, potential. There's a long way to go and I think we're increasingly working with the right people, both on the marketing side but also on the sales side that there are going to be good opportunities for us going forward. And there's a lot of things in the pipeline that we're excited about. Similarly, in the us it's been quite amazing how quickly things have picked up there. We're not going to overstretch ourselves. We don't want to go into too many states at once because it's an expensive market to support, but we see opportunity there. Um, some of our Asian markets are, uh, not seeing such growth, but we still see potential. Maybe not at the same pace and it'd be great to do more in Europe, but the timing of our launch post Brexit, it's really caused problems, I think, and a lot of the people we've spoken to there have said, you know, we'd be willing to try it, but we're not willing to go through the hoops of importing it. So if you can bring it in, then let's have a conversation. Um, I think the mentality in the US has been really interesting to me and it, it's, I don't want to play into stereotypes, but it's been a bit more. Yeah, let's have a go. Let's, let's go for it. That um, perception people have of, of American business being uh, a bit more proactive and gung ho if you will, from what I've seen is there's, there's a truth to that.

Speaker A: And for eight lands and maybe more broadly for premium spirits, what do you think are some of the common challenges and opportunities, um, for premium spirits today?

Speaker B: I think the opportunity, one of the opportunities, uh, and there are many, and you see some of the products are out there, particularly in the ready to drink area which is growing massively. There's some really interesting stuff going on. Um, I think where we started out with this idea of transparency and authenticity and quality, I think that still holds. And you know, in the years since we've launched there have been all these celebrity backed brands coming in, even sometimes by celebrities that are known not to drink alcohol, which I find weird. And I think there are moments where you think, gosh, we're a family brand but if we had a celebrity maybe we'd grow a lot quicker. But actually you sometimes see, and there are exceptions and there are some good products out there that celebrities are behind but you see a little bit of lethargy around that as well. And similarly there have been a lot of uh, more niche spirits, let's say, or niche gins or niche vodkas that have come and gone. And I think by going for something both with the vodka and the gin that is fairly timeless in terms of the proposition and the quality and the liquid profile, how they can be used, how they can be mixed, I think has set us on a pretty good path and we're comfortable we haven't diverged from that because I think that that's probably come back around again even in the short time I've been in the industry that people are looking more at authenticity, uh, and transparency in those things. So I think there is an opportunity there for us in the wider industry. Yeah, as I say, there's some really interesting stuff going on. There's the constant talk about uh, rum for example. And you know, that has been the case since before we even built our distillery. You know, is that going to be the next big thing? And you know, I've, I've been to the Caribbean and I went with some friends to Trinidad Carnival many years ago and remember very long night drinking local rum mixed with coconut water. And you know, I think it's a fantastic category. So it's really interesting to see how these things play out. You know, I still love whiskey, and I'm. I'm interested in seeing some of the stuff that's going on there with, with, um, obviously within Scotland, there's a. There's many new distilleries and, um, there are products that have been, you know, waiting to be matured, that are going to be coming out in the next year or so. That's going to be interesting to try as well. And then you've got what's going on in England and Wales with whiskies as well. I just think it's a fascinating market and I, you know, obviously, uh, very hopeful that the approach we've taken gives us longevity and that the demand will stay there. But I also like trying new things. Seeing what's going on and watching the, you know, the market as a whole and obviously reading spirits business and seeing what's new and what's changing is always really interesting.

Speaker A: And I think you're, you're so right on the, the point about authenticity. And I think having that confidence in what your brand is and what your, you know, distillery, the brand, the liquid stands for and its purpose is so important because trends can move very quickly in our industry, and there's always kind of a cyclical, um, development that also comes with what people are drinking, how they're drinking. Marketing that really resonates with consumers. But I think fundamentally you have to have very good liquid and you have to have a brand story that stands up for, for what it is. And if it doesn't, whatever marketing you employ afterwards. You know, I've had several conversations on the podcast talking about the celebrity partnership or the celebrity founders, and I think there's definitely place for that, and it can work very, very well. But if you have holes in those fundamentals of what your brand is and what it stands for, none of that is going to be enough to kind of plaster over. And consumers aren't stupid on trade, partners aren't stupid, and they can see through it in a heartbeat.

Speaker B: Yeah. And, uh, I think that the other side of it for me is understanding as well. I understand vodka and gin to some degree. I'm not saying I'm an expert on the category, but they're products I enjoy and I use and my friends do too. So it's something I get. Whereas there are growth areas, you know, like, if you look at a product like Buzzballs, it's something I'm aware of and it's obviously doing really well, but it's not part of My consumption pattern, if you will. So I'm not going to say, oh, let's try and compete with that because quite frankly I don't understand that.

Speaker A: Ah.

Speaker B: And that would just be silly.

Speaker A: Alex, I want to finish with a few quick fire questions for you on today's episode, if that's okay. Gin or vodka martini or cocktail?

Speaker B: Ooh, can I have both of them in a Vespa? You can, yeah. I mean my go to is actually an equal parts Vespa. So I have because I love our vodka as well. So I do, you know, a single measure of vodka, single measure of gin. I like to use two vermouth because I'm just a bit funny like that with a twist. Uh, and then uh, that's a great martini for me. So there's a time and place for both. And it also depends who I'm with. I've got friends who prefer a volcani, so if they come over, I make a volcani and vice versa.

Speaker A: That sounds delicious. She says at 5 past 11 in the morning.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: What's your favourite botanical?

Speaker B: That's a really good question. I think in our gin, I think the role, and it's quite a subtle one, the role that the cowberry plays is really important and it's something that distinguishes us in terms of its locality. But just bringing this, you know, red fruit element into the mix and the way it balances with everything, I just love the fact that works.

Speaker A: Best piece of business advice you've ever received?

Speaker B: I'm not sure it was advice as such, but the thing we were talking about earlier about patience and time, uh, I have to keep reminding myself that good things do take time to build and as you say, a uh, 20 year overnight success is not unheard of. And you read about that in many categories, not just in drinks. So I think for me it's that patience message and you know, being true to what you stand for, maintaining an eye on quality and consistency and all these things and just pushing forward.

Speaker A: And what's a dream bar that you'd like to see or that you'd like to drink? Eight Lands in.

Speaker B: Oh, that's a good one. I'd like to just find it somewhere really random. Um, you know, when I'm on holiday, somewhere that I don't know I'm going to expect it in. I'll give you an example. Uh, so my in laws live in the Isle of Man and there's a great little restaurant there, uh, that we go to and I was going to go in to pitch eight lands for them. This is a few years ago, and I saw a bottle behind the bar, and I said to the bartender, how did you find that? And he said, I found it online. I was looking at best gins. And he'd got it in himself without any prompting. So that was kind of fun. But I'd love to do that just somewhere really random when I'm traveling. I don't know if I was in Croatia or something. Something. And I didn't even know we were there. And that. That would be fun. So, yeah, something random. Um, just think of your most random bar, and that's where I want to see it.

Speaker A: I love that as an answer because I think that is kind of testament to. To a brand itself. Like, if you can find your bottle in, like, you know, an unknown bar or location or restaurant, then. Yeah. How amazing that of all the other products that could be out there that perhaps have a bigger profile, they love what you have put inside the bottle.

Speaker B: Exactly that. I think that's, you know, that's when you've probably made it amazing.

Speaker A: Alex, it's been so lovely to reconnect and chat with you, and thank you for giving so much insight into what it's been like as uh, a, you know, uh, someone building a business and a brand and being candid with kind of the ups and downs that come with that. So I appreciate your time today.

Speaker B: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: To keep up to date with the latest spirits news, head to thespiritsbusiness.com Sam.