43. Creamy Creation: how cream liqueurs became a standout spirits category

Speaker A: Liqueurs have long been positioned as a supporting act in the drinks world, but in recent years, they've played more of a starring role in cocktails and other serves. One company that knows more than most about the versatility of liqueurs is Creamy Creation, a leading business to business developer and manufacturer of cream liqueurs. I recently caught up with Matthew Benny, who's the Chief Commercial Officer for the Americas at Creamy Creation, to discuss both the category and company in detail. Our conversation starts by debunking some common misconceptions about liqueurs before also covering trends shaping the category, how to discover new opportunities for growth in a challenging economy, and the future direction. Matthew envisions both for the broader liqueur category and Creamy Creation. Mackie, thank you so much for joining me today on, um, the Spirits Business podcast to chat all things liqueurs. How are you doing today?

Speaker B: I'm doing well, thanks. Appreciate you having me.

Speaker A: Very happy to have you here. We're going to get straight into the liqueurs category. I feel like this is a really interesting part of our spirits industry and a category that's kind of long been positioned as almost a supporting act in the kind of wider drinks world. Um, but I'd love to start, start by debunking some of the misconceptions that people might have about the category. So, from your expertise, what do you think are some of the biggest misunderstandings about the liqueurs category?

Speaker B: It's a good question. Um, kind of depends. I think different people have different perceptions of the liqueurs category. Um, and of course the category is extremely wide, so it's almost subcategories within the category. Because of course you have fruit liqueurs, you have herbal nut coffee and then cream where we play in, and some others bouncing around there. And to your point, I think the general perception historically has been that they're used in cocktails to enhance flavor, um, or as ingredients in something else. Um, but that being said, I think a lot of them have their own unique characteristics and can be drank on their own. Um, and a lot of them are, you know, quite interesting in their own aspects and fairly unique. So something like cream, which, again, that's where we, what we specialize in, uh, is a little bit different from that because it's generally consumed as itself or by its own. Um, but I think the diversity is just something that's extremely broad. And at the same time, there are other liqueurs that can be drank by themselves as well.

Speaker A: And that kind of shift that you've seen and the growth in diversity of the category. Was there a particular turning point when you suddenly saw that kind of ramp up a bit more?

Speaker B: Um, not necessarily. Um, I think, you know, if you, if you look at the trends in the market. So Gen Z is really. And we're jumping ahead to trends already, but Gen Z is really, uh, interested in different flavors and unique flavors and combinations of flavors. So I think liqueurs play a very interesting role there, where you can combine, you know, a fruit and a nut, you can combine different, um, you know, different flavors to come up with something completely new. I think it's always been there, but it's maybe gotten the spotlight a little bit more recently, you know, with that, that trend of flavor exploration. It's just a nice, um, you know, a nice brushstroke to be able to do that.

Speaker A: And we're definitely going to come back and touch a lot more on kind of trends and category development shortly as well. But before we get there, I. That's that kind of diversity subject. Liqueurs have, um, so many different varieties available within the category. Like you said, there's cream, there are, um, emulsions, there are different flavors. Can you kind of go into a bit more detail to explain the different styles and what the differences are between those different types of liqueurs?

Speaker B: Sure. Um, so liqueur is, you know, really a spirit with sugar and flavor. So it's meant to be sweet and it's meant to be flavorful. Um, I think where you have the differentiation is the type of flavors. Again, the standard ones that people think of are fruit, um, herbal, so something like Jagermeister, um, nuts, coffee, uh, but also cream. And you mentioned the margins. And cream is the most different out of those in the sense that the product is emulsified. And really what that means is emulsification is the combination of two things that don't naturally combine together. So oil and water, and in this case specifically, alcohol and cream. So if you pour ever poured heavy cream into vodka, it's going to curdle, it's going to fall apart and separate. So that's where, um, cream liqueur is a subcategory even further from the rest, because it's a very specialized process where some of the others, it's just a different process. I should say with fruit and herbal and nut, it's more about, you know, getting that flavor to come through and what you're using is that flavor, whether that be an extract, an essence, things like that, where the real focus on the production of Cream is on the emulsion and the physical stability. So ensuring that the product is one fluid liquid and it stays that way, uh, for years at a time.

Speaker A: I think there's nothing worse than having a product, you know, particularly if you're making cocktails and then having something that, you know, doesn't gel with the other ingredients. And that word curdle that you used, I think is probably any drink maker's worst nightmare, whether you're a professional bartender or, you know, an amateur at home. Absolutely. Something you don't want in your drink. And so, uh, talk to me a little bit more about how you actually go about making cream liqueurs and also how you go out making a great cream liqueur. Because I know how much creamy creation really kind of emphasizes, you know, that, that quality aspect and what you do.

Speaker B: Sure. Um, so obviously I can't go into all the details. Um, those are proprietary. But, uh, I mean, the basic process is we take fresh dairy cream, uh, and then we homogenize that, uh, together with alcohol in sugar. So really what we're doing is again, emulsifying the product, so taking the alcohol and the cream that don't normally mix together, um, and basically decreasing their particle size so that they stay together in one fluid, uh, product. So it's definitely not a simple process. Uh, it takes specialized equipment. But at the same time, I would say it's very much a science with the equipment, the pressures behind it, the order of addition. At the same time, there's some art form to it. Um, and we've been doing this for 40 years, so there's experience in little things and things you wouldn't think of. That's definitely necessary, uh, for the production of a quality product. Um, in terms of a great cream liqueur, I think if you look at everything we make is great. It's physically stable. That's our number one priority always. Is the product going to be physically stable for at least a year, if not longer? Nothing, um, we do is less than that, um, a great cream liqueur. I think it depends on the flavors in the ingredients in there. And of course, over time there's been, uh, an emphasis on natural ingredients, natural flavors. Honestly, the more fat you put into the product, the more viscous, the more luxurious it's going to taste. It's going to be a thick, you know, creamy product that, that tastes really nice. Um, but the same goes for, you know, the ingredients that go into it. If you use a really high quality cocoa powder, um, or a coffee extract, something that you Know, the flavor really comes through in, um, that creates a great cream liqueur.

Speaker A: M. It is really interesting when you get the opportunity to kind of taste different cream liqueurs side by side, because I think people have perhaps, like, a preconception of what it might taste like and what the texture might be and all those sorts of elements. But like you were saying, to get the. The boldness of the flavor, but also get the texture to feel really luxurious when you have them side by side, which I've had the chance to do several times during our blind tasting competitions, and you get one that falls short of that mark, and it just feels a bit thin and a bit watery. You really then can tell the difference between, like we were saying, you know, an okay product, but actually something that is really great and. And ticks all of those boxes.

Speaker B: For sure. Yeah, you can tell the difference. And that being said, I mean, there is, of course a trend for, you know, thinner products. At the same time. It doesn't need to be watery. So that is, pun intended. A little bit of a thin line where you can still have a nice mouth feel, but it be a little bit more sessionable at the same time. So there's some tricks of the trade, um, to make sure you're still getting that, you know, that thick, luxurious mouth feel, but also having it be a little bit thinner and a little bit more drinkable.

Speaker A: I'd love to share with our listeners a little bit more about you as well, Matthew, and your kind of journey into the industry. So can you talk us through your kind of career background and how you ended up working at Creamy Creation?

Speaker B: Sure. Um, so it's not. Not a great story. You know, I know there's a lot of people in the industry who have family members and, you know, this is something they've been doing their whole lives or, um, you know, one of those stories that's not really my case. Um, I was working as a salesperson for a food. A food ingredient broker, um, really selling for companies who were producing things like dried, um, onion and garlic powder, tomato paste, things like that, um, to the food industry, and randomly got a LinkedIn message from a recruiter who was looking to fill a sales position at Creamy Creation. And at that point, um, it was close to where I was living, uh, in upstate New York in Buffalo. So I figured, um, it was at least worth a conversation. And it was a good fit. I checked all the boxes, and that was almost 14 years ago.

Speaker A: So.

Speaker B: So it's definitely been a long journey, but I really fell in Love with the drinks industry and the culture pretty immediately. Um, if you compare it to food, industrial food where I came from, it's definitely a smaller community. Uh, it's not as big as food, uh, and at the same time it's got a little bit more of a, uh, community feel to it. And I, what, what I like about it is that you know, there's a lot of creativity, um, there's a lot of smaller companies who are doing innovative things where to me it's a little bit, the food industry is great, uh, but it's a little bit more stiff if that makes sense. The drinks industry is just a little bit more fun. People are a little bit more relaxed, um, and a little bit more creative I think. So again I've been, been here for 14 years, um, and still loving it.

Speaker A: That's an impressive innings of 14 years and I think it's, I hear so many similar stories to yours Matthew, and I'm kind of the same. Like once you kind of find your way into this industry, it's so hard to leave it because like you say, it is a fun, um, sociable industry. And I think if that isn't part of your personality and what you want out of your work, then you're probably in the wrong, in the wrong place for sure. But it definitely brings so many benefits to work. And so as chief Commercial officer now of Creamy Creation, what is your kind of key responsibility and your overall goal I suppose for the company?

Speaker B: Sure. So my responsibility is the commercial activities in uh, both North America and Latin America. Managing the sales team, the marketing team, um, on a day to day basis, the development team here working on, uh, with the North American and Latin American customers. So you know, obviously there are certain parts of that that are operational. You know, looking at the weekly production schedule and making sure, you know, customers are going to get their products on time, making sure that um, you know, orders are in, looking at forecast, things like that. But the main driver of my day to day is really growing, uh, growing the company. And kind of how I look at it is we are the global leaders in this space and I look at it as we're growing the cream liqueur category as well. Uh, I've said this before but typically when we're approaching or talking to new customers or prospects about you know, a cream liqueur, we're not promoting Creamy Creation specifically. We're not saying, hey, we're this wonderful company, this is what we do. We're really promoting the idea of a cream liqueur. Um, so we're saying, hey, you know, you have a whiskey, you have a rum, you have a vodka. Uh, have you considered a cream liqueur? It's got a lot of advantages. Uh, you can reach a new target audience, whether that be, you know, a female consumer, whether that be, uh, you know, hedging your strategy from a seasonal standpoint, where you've got an RTD that does really well in the summer months, cream liqueur could help you do really well in the winter months as well. Um, a good use for your distillate. Uh, we've seen, we're seeing a big, uh, inventory level of whiskey and bourbon in the market where people just overproduce. And again, this is a creative outlet for that product where, hey, put your bourbon into a cream liqueur and you just entered a different segment that's not as crowded. Um, and you can regain some of your, uh, money from that by creating a new product. So, um, that being said, a lot of what I'm focused on is growing and not just selling and continuing to push our volume with our current customers, but also looking at new innovations, new types of products, uh, and how we can do more and help our customers grow their products and their brands.

Speaker A: Because I think Creamy Creation is, has such a unique perspective and plays such a unique role within the industry because of your B2B ethos. So can you tell us a little bit more about, um, what exactly Creamy Creation does and kind of how you work with your. With your partners and your clients to fulfill their requests?

Speaker B: Sure. So I think first off, I would say that it really depends. We're flexible in how we work, and one customer is going to be different than the other. So there are, uh, let's say a multinational is going to rely on their own marketing team for the data and their trends, and they probably have an idea of the flavor concept. They might even have specs for a product in their mind. Um, and we can work with that. We do work with that. And we can take that spec and that idea and basically utilize it within our process and give them a finished product on the backside. Um, the other way, or I guess the other extreme would be people or entrepreneurs, smaller companies who don't have those resources. They don't have a marketing department, they don't have an R and D department. And I think that's typically where we shine. Uh, because we have those experts within our team. We've got a marketing communication manager, an innovation manager, who are continuously looking at trends, um, relaying them back to products that we can make, uh, they can give data on what flavors are growing, which segments are growing, uh, and help customers to pinpoint where they want to go. And then I think the most important piece is the R and D aspect when it comes to development. So we can develop, uh, what we call ready to bottle products, where we do the development and produce the final liquid. Uh, and we have a team both in the Netherlands and in the US who works with the customers to create, um, you know, their, their end product. So they might have an idea for it, um, where they say, hey, I want to do, I don't know, a line of coffee type products, or they might just want to do something that's indulgent and they let us help them with the marketing and different concepts. So, you know, there's a wide range of ways we work with customers and at the end of the day, you know, that's uh, that's what we're here for. We also offer technical support, regulatory, uh, support where we can, um, and we're a B2B company, so we're not competing with our customers. Uh, it's something we've looked at, I would say a couple times at least in my 14 years of is it an idea, you know, to create our own brand? And every time it's a pretty quick decision. You know, we don't want to get into that market. We don't want to compete with our customers. We want to make our customers more successful.

Speaker A: It's interesting that you have stuck so solidly to that plan because we see other third party producers or people who also produce to B2B kind of dabble in both sides. But I think it's interesting to see a company like Creamy Creation that just seemingly knows so well what it does very well and purpose and the goal. And that must be quite reassuring for you and your team to kind of have that overarching ethos that you know what the purpose is and how to do it and how to do it well.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. Um, it's, you know, I think to create a brand is kind of sexy. Like, hey, you get the marketing part. You can do an ad strategy. That's an exciting concept. But to your point, we know what we do well and we know what we don't do well. Um, and it's not to say that we couldn't go out and hire a bunch of marketing people and brand people and a sales team to go out into the market. We could certainly do that, but we don't necessarily have the expertise for that. So we always kind of feel like, you know, we want to do what we do well, um, and focus on that and not drift too far outside that.

Speaker A: And when we've been reporting on creamy creation over the years and we've followed very closely what you guys are doing, you have come out with your kind of own concepts, um, that are then available for your customers kind of to tailor how they would like to and what works for them. Where do you and your team kind of get the inspiration for those products?

Speaker B: It's a good question. Um, it depends on the product, of course. I think really it's a combination of two things, or let's call it a push and pull. Um, we have a marketing communication manager, Georgia, who I mentioned earlier. Uh, we also have an innovation manager named Jeroen Hauskas. And they tend to look, let's call it from the push standpoint, and they're looking at trends in the market. They're looking at what other customers are doing, not just in cream, but in the whole landscape. Non elk, um, non food and bev as well. So what are some macro trends, what are some micro trends? And they're taking that back to what our capabilities are and what we could translate that to from a creamy creation standpoint. At the same time, we also have our sales team that's out in the market, um, and they're the ones that are talking to customers. And that combination of that push and pull, I think is important because the sales team is bringing in the customer ideas. So, hey, I just talked to my customer, and they're really interested in trying to do something in whatever low ABV or something in this area. And we know we can't do that. Is that something we can start looking at and starting an innovation project on? So that's kind of how we, how we look at it is coming from both angles is what customers are asking for, but also proactively, what could we do that fits some of these trends? And I think the other aspect is just what do we have the capabilities of doing from a technology standpoint? Um, you know, and really the combination is, is giving our customers more options. And that's really what we want to do at the end of the day is, hey, you know, if you want to do, you're looking at all the different options for your product. Well, okay, we offer a vegan product. We offer a vegan product without allergens. Uh, we offer an oats product that's also vegan. We also offer a vegan product that's made with coconut cream. So the point is they have more options to choose from. And I think at the end of the day, uh, that gives us, you know, or gives our customers the best ability to create their product that they want.

Speaker A: Mhm. And in terms of new product development, we've, we've seen quite a few from Creamy Creation over the years. Has there been a favorite new product that you've been particularly excited about and why?

Speaker B: Um, are we talking innovations or like customer products?

Speaker A: Oh, both. Depends what you share with me.

Speaker B: Fair enough. Um, I'll start with the innovation side. Uh, to me the Oats product was, I think the coolest one. Um, only from the perspective of that was one of the first where we had consumer interest before. So people came to us and said, hey, do you have an oat milk liqueur? Because I only drink oat milk. I'm drinking oatly a lot and I think it would be a cool concept. Um, so that was one where we actually took the feedback from our customers in the market and said, hey, we better get on this. Uh, and we turned it around, I think fairly quickly and came out with a product within about 12 to 18 months. Um, and that one is been in our repertoire for I think about five years now. Um, so that one is the one that I always kind of look back on as, you know, a really good situation. Ah. If you talk about customer NPD development, um, I would always focus back on some of the ones that we did fairly quickly. And the reason I say that is because we have the agility of doing that. Sometimes of course, we don't want to move too quickly, um, and miss certain aspects or you know, take risks from a quality standpoint. But there's been a few where our customers have come to us and really we've taken that idea, um, to market within nine months, uh, which is pretty incredible. And I think that just speaks to our agility and how we can move quickly with customers depending on if they're ready to go and if, if they have their foot on the gas pedal as well.

Speaker A: That is quick to go from concept to product to market. Is no time at all really in the grand scheme of things, is it? Yeah. And um, you touched a little bit earlier on about how you're also seeing, um, things like more whiskey based products or, you know, we know that in the industry there is a bit of a surplus of, of whiskey at the moment. What else in that kind of trends area in terms of base spirit, are you seeing come more popular with your customers?

Speaker B: Tequila is always there, I think. Not Always over. Over the past I think five to seven years, Tequila has just become more and more popular. And of course as people discovered that there's a lot of really good tequila out there, um, they've also started to look at, you know, different ways of consuming tequila. Um, and that means a little bit more exploratory. So tequila cream has actually been quite popular. Um, and that's something that I think the average tequila drinker doesn't always think about. But again, when you talk about expanding your consumer base, you know, that does it. If someone's not interested in drinking, you know, a high proof tequila, maybe a tequila cream is something that still you get the taste of tequila, but it's a little bit more sessionable, a little bit more easy to drink. So that diversification is definitely there and I think just continuing to expand. Rum comes and goes. I feel like it's just a cyclical trend of, I don't know, every five to seven years rum becomes very popular and then falls out of popularity and it's coming around to being popular once again. Um, but there's also different alcohol bases like wine, um, and malt, which are becoming more interesting. Um, obviously there's a tax advantage there in the US but additionally the outlets that you're able to get your products into in the U.S. uh, is substantially expanded by using either malt or wine. So depending on the state you're in, you can put your product in grocery and convenience stores, whereas spirits product you wouldn't be able to. So that's definitely a really interesting outlet and something that we're really focused on, uh, helping our customers expand into those subcategories.

Speaker A: M and I think cream liqueurs, M in particular have kind of been quite a seasonal drink for, for a long time, you know, particularly in the cooler months when you might have kind of richer cocktails, um, particularly around the festive period as well. But how are you seeing that change and demand seasonally for the work that you do? Do you find that it is still kind of tailored towards winter launches or are you finding that there's kind of more year long trend for people, you know, consuming and enjoying cream liqueurs?

Speaker B: Sure. I mean, as much as, um, we try to continue to push the narrative that, you know, cream liqueurs aren't just a wintertime drink. In reality, you know, the biggest consumption months are the winter months, the colder weather months, um, especially in this hemisphere. So, um, it doesn't mean that they have to be. And I think what you're actually seeing is a Little bit of two things. So a thinner product, something that's a little bit more sessionable, um, and something in smaller format definitely works better in summer months or you know, non October, November, December months. So you see a little bit more diversification with some of those products. And like I said, the small format in a little bit more drinkable, uh, texture helps that. And then of course cream goes really well with fruit flavors, which isn't usually the first thought of people. Um, and products that are a little bit lighter, that have fruit flavors, some exotic fruits, whatever it be, mango, strawberry, um, things like that tend to do better in the summer months as well. So there is diversification there. But at the end of the day it's still a pretty seasonal product.

Speaker A: M which makes a lot of sense to, to an extent kind of given the consistency. And a lot of them I guess I would assume most popular flavors as well are kind of geared towards um, that part of the year and those, those kind of colder seasons. What other trends are you noticing within the cream liqueur space? And you know, as a B2B producer, how closely are you watching trends as well?

Speaker B: Yeah, we're definitely watching trends very closely. Um, as you mentioned, when we do our A, that's input for our innovation funnel. So something we're looking to do from a, you know, a different format perspective. Uh, but also we typically will send out proactive samples to customers, um, you know, based on what we're seeing in the market and what could be interesting. So it's good to always have our fingers on the pulse of what's going on. Um, in terms of the trends I just mentioned, small formats that's continuing to grow. RTDs have been, you know, grown like crazy, uh, for a long time now. But now you're seeing a little bit more diversification in the format. Where previously it was, you know the, the 12 ounce slim can and now you're seeing different types of packaging, uh, but generally that smaller format and that's really um, really something that Gen Z has taken to diversification. Ah, you know, variety packs, but also you know, something that's not huge, something that you can consume fairly quickly, um, and don't have to have a large or a large quantity, um, of uh, additionally flavor combinations. Um, we see a lot of hybrids so spicy, sweet and spicy, uh, salty, which is sweet and salty. So really those, those hybrid flavors are interesting and gaining a lot of momentum I think. Um, and then things, you know, lower ABV has been here for a while but you're really seeing more push on it, um, whether that be, you know, 5% and under, 10% and under depending on the type of product. Uh, and I think that's going to continue to stay. That's something we're focused on ourselves is uh, the ability to um, have more products that are lower in abv. So uh, you know that's continuously growing in the market.

Speaker A: It definitely still seems to be extremely popular and in demand. And the trends that you're noticing in terms of markets, is this kind of a global outlook that you're seeing or is it more market specific?

Speaker B: Um, good question. I think it's a little bit of both. Um, some of the macro trends you see globally, um, and how we typically look at it is the US is typically the leader at the forefront of trends in the spirits industry. The UK as a quick second. And then once the UK I think takes it in, it spreads across the rest of Western Europe. Um, so Europe and the US I think are fairly close together when it comes to those trends. I, uh, think the rest of the regions are a little bit behind typically or in a different stage of the cycle being Latin America, Africa, Asia, um, things like the flavor combinations tend to be different per region. Obviously different regions have different tastes, they have different traditional, um, you know, they have different palates for one. So there's a little bit of a difference there. Uh, and then I think the formats is also something that is a little bit slower to roll out. Uh, where RTDS is still very big in uh, the US in Western Europe and if you look at for instance Latin America, it's just starting to kind of get going. Uh, so they're all, they'll all get there eventually globally. But I think different regions are at different paces in the innovation cycle.

Speaker A: It's definitely interesting to see where trends and flavor demands kind of pick up and how they ventricle trickle across to other, other markets rather than as well to see how much the bar industry plays in those trends as well. I think they play such an important role. We also, I mean we know it's a bit of a tough time for the spirits industry overall at the moment. How is creamy creation kind of working to continue finding success and you know, new opportunities when it's a bit of a tricky economic time for everybody.

Speaker B: Sure. Um, yeah, I mean as you mentioned it's uh, let's call it a tricky time. Um, that's a little bit glass half full. It's a lot about being diverse, uh, and being flexible and agile. I think, um, when you see customers struggle or customers start to lose volume. There's a couple of options. Um, you can either just sit there and, you know, let it happen, or you can diversify and, uh, you can innovate. And that's really what we focused on is, hey, how can we offer different types of products, uh, you know, that could catch on. And you know, we talked about the malt, we talked about the wine a little bit earlier. That's a way that we can be a little bit more horizontal and look at different alcohol types, um, different types of formats, low abv. So again, giving our customers more diversification and more options in what they're doing. Uh, and the hope there is that some of those innovations that we work with, uh, our customers really lead to a new consumer group, um, in a new space for themselves. And I think overall we're in a fairly good position compared to some others in the alcohol market. Um, you know, cream liqueurs are a good, uh, foundation for different flavors, which of course is very popular at the moment. But also it's lower in ABV compared to a lot of products, um, which helps a little bit from, you know, the, the trend of, um, lower, lower ABV products. And I think we're fairly well positioned there.

Speaker A: Do you still see areas of opportunity for more education across the, the industry or perhaps as well across, um, consumers in terms of those who are keen to kind of make their own drinks at home, in terms of educating people about the full potential of cream liqueurs and not, you know, we've talked about kind of a few, I guess, stereotypes of what cream like, but, you know, really broadening people's horizons as to what cream liqueurs can do for the industry.

Speaker B: Yeah, the education piece is interesting. I, the first place I go with that is bartenders. And of course bartenders are, you know, the, the vocal point of the industry. They're, you know, the ones at the front of the line. They're creating a lot of these trends and promoting a lot of these trends. Um, and creams are always this strange, um, in a strange position with bartenders, I feel like it's very polarizing. There are some bartenders that absolutely love working with creams, um, and some that absolutely hate them. And there's a couple different reasons there. I think. First off, um, if you are mixing, ah, acidified products or fruit juices with the standard cream, you're going to get curdling. So a lot of bartenders are very wary and I don't think all of them necessarily understand why it's happening. Um, so educating on hey, there are low ph products that we make, so acidified creams basically that can withstand being mixed with, let's say a pineapple juice, uh, and they'll stay stable. That's something that um, is an interesting opportunity and we've pushed for a while of, hey, you know, bartenders can be using this too. We just need to get a customer to really create a bartender specific mixing cream, let's call it. Um, so I think that that's a big aspect of it. Um, and the second thing is, you know, where bartenders are, um, it's, it's a little bit taxing for them when it comes to cleaning. So the crane tends to leave a little bit of a film on. Um, so again it kind of depends on the individual bartender, but that's an area that I think we see more opportunity in. Um, and with some of that education would help.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting to hear you touch on those points and to see it from your position because obviously you are working with clients who would then go into bars and kind of continue that conversation. So I think it's an interesting one for the people to hear about in terms of trying to find a gap in the market. You know, we talk about, uh, diversification, what's missing that could simplify how bartenders work. And then, you know, you have the means to create that and kind of bridge the gap and close any, any holes and just make the bar entry kind of work a bit more seamlessly in terms of the opportunities for drinks. When it comes to cream liqueurs.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And with cream of core, I mean because of that, the general consensus is usually that it's uh, an off premise drink, so something that people are just drinking at home when, you know, I think there's a whole nother area being on premise that's really semi ignored or really not focused on from that standpoint. Um, and to your point, that's something that, you know, over 14 years you definitely see is there are these gaps in the market and you can promote them all you want, but you know, ultimately our customers are the ones that need to gravitate towards that concept and launch the brand. Um, I always tell my team, you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make a drink. You can always show them the concept, but then it's up to them, uh, if they want to continue on and promote that in the market.

Speaker A: Are you able to share any, uh, upcoming projects that you're working on or anything that we can expect to see from creamy creation in Say the next year or so.

Speaker B: Yeah, I can, sure. I think a little bit there, uh, maybe just to go back, uh, looking at some of our past innovations, but one of the things that we uh, were really focused on and still are focused on is the low ABV options. Um, we came out with a retort free uh, low ABV cream uh, a couple years ago. And that's something that we're continuously putting time and effort into because it allows customers to get um, a product under 10%, roughly 7% ABV into the market without finding retort capacity which is high heat pasteurization basically. M so it's a much more accessible route to the market for our customers. But the other one that, and we're continuing to look at other options in the low ABV space, whether that be finding retort partners for our customers to open up those channels. Um, and the other one that's kind of upcoming that I'll, I think I can divulge but we have a line of frozen uh, products that we're continuously working on um, that are pretty much ready to go and that is more or less two different versions. One is a cream product that can be put into a pouch or for food service use like in on premise applications. That makes the product kind of like a slushy format so it's creamy but also um, has you know, the nice ice crystals around it. So great for frozen cocktails. And the other aspect that we're still working through um, is alcoholic ice cream but from like a spoonable perspective. So something that you would eat instead of drink. Um, and that's something that we've been working on for a few years now, um, put on pause for a little bit. But we expect to have those out in the market um, in the next probably six to nine months.

Speaker A: That's really exciting to hear. A boozy ice cream that would be so good. I'm thinking like a pina colada as an ice cream would just be so delicious.

Speaker B: No, exactly. And I mean these products exist to some extent now. But the real difference in what we're able to offer is you can do it at a higher ABV level where now a lot of those products are very low in abv. We uh, can do it at a higher ABV level and still have that, you know, thick ice cream taste to it.

Speaker A: That sounds so good. Especially because we're currently in a heat wave here in the UK and ah, everyone is kind of trying any in which way to try and keep cool. So that would go down very well for Us this summer.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Great. A great time for that.

Speaker A: Hopefully next summer we can, we can try some of them then. That would.

Speaker B: Yeah, for sure.

Speaker A: Um, and you've, we also spoke a bit about kind of some of the plant based options that you have as well, like the oat milk based products. And just to talk a bit more about that space for products that cater to allergens or dietary requirements. Is that a trend that you see here to stay when it comes to the alcohol world and the cream liqueur sector?

Speaker B: I think so. Um, it's definitely an area where I would say five years ago, maybe seven, you needed, you needed to have options. Right. So I think it was kind of a requirement of like, hey, it's going in this direction. Maybe it's a trend, maybe it's a long term development. Um, but let's make sure we're ahead of it. And for us, admittedly it's still a small percentage of our overall product portfolio in terms of volume, in terms of our consumer base, but it's an important one to have. Um, and again there's kind of those niche segments that need it. So whether that be, you know, from a dairy allergen or a vegan lifestyle, for instance, they can still consume those products. But you're seeing that consumers that aren't vegan, they're maybe just fairly health cautious, still see it as, or perceive it as a little bit healthier. Um, so I think that is becoming more and more mainstream. I, um, don't think it's going to be a huge half of our portfolio in the next 10 years, but I think it'll continuously grow.

Speaker A: And Matthew, for any of our listeners who might be looking to create their own liqueur product or an rtd, what advice would you have for them?

Speaker B: Oh, it's a big question. Um, a, it's got to taste good. And I think that kind of goes without saying. Um, I've said this before, but I'll say it again. You know, I've seen both ends of the spectrum. Uh, I've seen products that tasted amazing but they did not have a good go to market strategy. They didn't have a budget for marketing, a budget for a proactive sales team and the product failed. I've also seen the opposite where I've seen big companies who had a huge budget for their promotions, their sales, their marketing and the product just didn't taste great. So it needs to be somewhat of a combination. Um, if your product's not great, then you know what's drawing people to it, um, I think the second piece is that you need to do something fairly unique. Um, it doesn't need to be crazy. I think the cream liqueur category is still, it still has room in it. It's not like other categories where there's 52 brands on the shelves. It's still fairly limited, but at the same time you need to differentiate yourself. And that could be packaging, that could be flavor, that could be format. Um, but it's got to be a little bit different. It's got to have a marketing story behind it and it's got to taste good.

Speaker A: Great advice. Thank you for sharing. If we look forwards a little bit now as well, um, you gave us a couple of little teasers as to what we might be able to expect from creamy creation, but what kind of more broadly is going to be creamy creations focus over the next 12 months?

Speaker B: Our focus is on growing. Um, and it's definitely something that we've been focused on for a couple years now. Um, and that comes with a couple different things that comes in growing in different regions, so expanding our global footprint. I mean, we do business on every continent, but of course some are heavier than others. So that geographic expansion is always, uh, are continuously going to be important for us. Uh, but it also comes with innovation in different types of products, where we know that, you know, if we're going to help the industry grow in the cream section grow a little bit, we need to come out with some different types of products and allow our customers to do a little bit more. So that's really our focus. Um, it's volume growth, growth, but with that comes innovation in the background.

Speaker A: And, um, if we look more broadly at the spirits industry, what's your overall outlook for the industry over, say, the next 12 months or so?

Speaker B: Good question. I'm not an industry expert necessarily. Um, but what I would say is that I think there's going to be some stabilization. Um, the past couple years were, I think, quick and dirty and, you know, there was a lot of pain and kind of a little bit of a shock. So everything was really, really high during COVID and then took a nosedive. Um, I think now you're starting to see the industry sort itself out a little bit, kind of, you know, dust itself off and get back up. Um, of course that, that comes with change. Um, it's not the same market that we were in, you know, three, five years ago. So companies are adapting to that. Um, maybe they're a little bit more conservative on certain things, but I think that you'll start to see that, um, I hope at least that, uh, you know, we've hit the ground floor and that we'll start to work our way up slowly.

Speaker A: I think everybody is hoping that we have some brighter, uh, years ahead for us in the industry. Matthew, thank you so much for your time today and for talking us through the liqueur category and giving us more insights into the opportunities and cream liqueurs. And, um, from a B2B perspective as well, I think it's really interesting to hear a different take on the industry. So I appreciate your time today.

Speaker B: Yeah, of course. Thank you for having me.

Speaker A: To keep up to date with the latest spirits news, head to the spirits business dot com.