What Breaks When Your GM Takes Two Weeks Off?

Bryan Gorman: I'm your host, Brian Gorman. I'm excited to have Tate Linden today as a guest ⁓ the show. ⁓ welcome Tate. Would love for you to start, introduce yourself and ⁓ ⁓ what you do and where you're from and and we can go from there. Tate: Yeah, my name is Tate Linden. First of all, I'm very bad at introducing myself. I end up like just talking about my kids, but ⁓ so I'm gonna do my best not to do that. ⁓ I live in the DC region and have been here for ⁓ twenty five, twenty-six years now, thereabouts. I founded company called Stokefire that initially did strategic communications and over the last five or six years really shifted into organizational development work, which has been just incredible. Bryan Gorman: Sure. Tate: recently we came up with a product called Loadmap that we're gonna be ⁓ pushing out or in the process of pushing out into ⁓ organizations of all c all kinds. And don't pairs. That would be the last one. Hate pairs. Don't like pairs. Bryan Gorman: You don't like pears. ⁓ That's a first on the podcast. So this is a restaurant podcast Tate: Yeah. Bryan Gorman: more focused on the on the HR payroll side of of of that. So I guess it lasted what, three days? So what it what exactly happened there? ⁓ Tate: Yeah. Yeah. Three three days, seafood place. ⁓ so the job was ⁓ crabs with a pair of tongs that were 12 inches long. Sounds great. The crabs had at least 18 inches of reach. So every single grab, I ⁓ my hand clearly looked either like a thread or a snack or something. Bryan Gorman: Okay, okay. Okay. Yeah. Tate: And you know the the easy way to look at this is I clearly could not hack it. I was a piano player, I was not gonna do that. And and and so I admit it, I I was not right. ⁓ but what I didn't really think about was no one keeps that job, ⁓ not for long. So you do your time and then you move up to something that actually matters. But part that's really stuck with me was it wasn't the the problem wasn't the tongs. Bryan Gorman: Right. Tate: They were wrong for the job that they told me I had. They should have been giving me 24 inch tongs. they told me go get crabs and and try not to bleed on stuff that people are gonna eat. but ⁓ they probably right for the job that I think the and this took me 20 years after to figure this out. I think they were ⁓ right the job the kitchen actually needed, which was to find out whether the new guy was gonna do the stuff that they don't like, the stuff that's hard, and not complain about it. Bryan Gorman: That's important. ⁓ Tate: So ⁓ yeah, the same tongs, really bad for crab lang wrangling, great to figure out if somebody is gonna fit in your kitchen. So yeah, I I I now measure the tongs metaphorically when I've got a a a new role or a new job. if people keep failing in the same spot, I look at the tool before I blame the person. So the crabs caught me what the catch is or taught me the catch. ⁓ if you don't know what a job is really for or or how somebody's actually being judged. Measuring the tool gives you a really great answer to the wrong problem. So yeah. Sorry, long story, but ⁓ yes. Yeah. Bryan Gorman: No. No, I love that. No, for sure. For sure. There's a lot there's a there's a lot there for sure. And so so your business partner says Brittany says you skip the HR theory and go straight to to root causes. So you know ⁓ in opinion, you know, what what's the HR theory, first of all, and what's what's what's it what's it getting wrong? Tate: So need to acknowledge I am not in HR. I have never had a job in HR. ⁓ could not do what folks in HR do. The patience that that you have is just incredible. but I have studied and worked with organizations with behavioral theories, organizational theories for about 20 years. And so from that angle, ⁓ what I've is that much, but not all, HR theory. Bryan Gorman: Sure, sure. Mm. ⁓ Tate: Treats a repeating problem as a people problem. So somebody messes up and you coach them or you write them up or replace them. ⁓ and sometimes that's the right call. But when it isn't, you end up swapping the person and the problem either doesn't go away or comes right back wearing a different name tag. a bunch of employees are making the same mistake in the same time frame. Those people probably aren't the cause. The system is triggering it. just standing there when it goes off. So the HR theory, and it makes sense, human resources. ⁓ theory is we deal with the people. The problem is that HR is not well enough connected oftentimes to operations, the rest of operations, to figure out what is it that the people Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm. Tate: Need and how can HR help ensure that they have the tools, the rules, the systems necessary? so I'm actually advocating oddly, I I want to to take a lot of the blame that is placed on HR and help show help HR give HR the tools to say, you know, ⁓ yes, we can retraining this role. However, we are going to retraining this role because. It's not the right solution and the right solution is a different tool. So yeah. Bryan Gorman: Mm. No, that's that's super important. And and I think that ⁓ well just training, right? Just having a a a training program in place and being able to on that. And I think that's that's a very valid point for sure. And so for a real life example here, like say a manager's written up three different employees, you know, for the same mistake. ⁓ you know, what's actually going on, you think? Tate: it is possible coincidentally, you end up with just three really bad people. But ⁓ the the first question to ask is Did this problem survive a people change? and question answered it. Three different folks, same mistake, same period. if it were really about the individuals, we would expect this would be isolated. And and it's not. So I'd stop interviewing the employees and start interviewing the job. What is it about this spot, this handoff, the setup, the seat makes the mistake, the problem, the easiest thing to do? Right now, the works the the guardrails on the work and the tools, they aren't driving the behavior that we want. and so we're sort protecting something else. ⁓ but instead of fixing that thing ⁓ or finding out what your process is actually protecting, we tend to blame the people that are using these tools. So Bryan Gorman: Mm. So do you think that ⁓ i it's just an issue with not looking at your processes right enough to be able to to maybe make changes and corrections or just I mean, do you think in your opinion that they should stick just get let's look at our processes and see if those need to be fixed before ⁓ you know, making a change like Tate: Yes, the the I'm trying to think of the the best way to answer this. So the so agree and and the direction you're looking is the right one. That immediately below your performance, the how your people are doing the job is what tools are they using and what processes and rules are driving the behavior. And and I would say you are 90% the time, and I don't have the exact number, but I'm I'm ballparking it about 80, 90% of the time, you're Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm. Tate: most significant challenge will be in those two layers. Your what are your guardrails? And you know, what are you in your incentives, your guardrails? What are your tools that you have available? And then you kind of look at those two things and you can see from the performance side, well, you know, if if this is what we are working on top of, what is preventing anybody from doing the things that we say are wrong? And generally speaking, you're going to find that. Maybe officially your policy and your processes are X. However, in the real world, what you find is that the moment the manager's not in the room, people are going to go to wherever the pressure is the lowest. And if your system doesn't support that situation, even though it feels like a people problem, that's a systems problem. That ⁓ have a system that requires somebody to be in the room. So Bryan Gorman: Yeah, which which which can lead to to to you know, if you're not getting it right, to turnover, right? And I think in the in the restaurant space, and and you know this too, turnover ⁓ it it runs about a hundred percent a a year. so you know, everyone calls it the cost of doing business, but I mean, is it tr is it truly that, do you think? Tate: ⁓ yeah. of it, sure. ⁓ grant you, yes, our labor market is real. And and in in within the last five years, there have been times where ⁓ have seen 200, 300% turnover because of the labor market issues. ⁓ COVID was one of those situations. ⁓ so some turn is never gonna stop. ⁓ but I would say cost of doing business, it's really a a comfortable place to hide, to to So the part you're actually controlling is the part your system makes. So if your scheduling, your staffing, if those are fire drills every single week, or ⁓ your everyday competence, when people do things ⁓ that that are really great, if you're not recognizing that, that's an issue. ⁓ maybe you've got one really strong person that's doing a whole bunch of work and one morning they don't show up and The fact that they are not there exposes something and everybody blames the person rather than the fact they were doing more than they should have. They they weren't the problem. They were just a load-bearing wall, say. ⁓ so you couldn't see it until it came down, until they left. cost of doing business, as far as I can tell, is not turnover. ⁓ is the cost that you have from your systems and environments that really giving employees what they need in order to engage and want to stay. Bryan Gorman: Right. No, absolutely. And you know, l let's say, you know, an owner operator of a restaurant loses a you know a great general manager, and then you know, the store falls apart in three weeks. So what do you think actually happened? You know, ⁓ and we can kind of put all of your answers together, basically like, you know, what 'cause 'cause the GM is so important, you know, in the restaurant. It it's just it's such an important role. And ⁓ I've had guests on in the past to talk about how you know that's just if you if you lose that that you know, that cog in the wheel, it's just it's it's just all falls apart. So maybe, you know, expand upon that a little bit. Tate: Yeah. ⁓ so I are are you a fan of Ted Lasso by any chance? So so I'm actually I've just started a a blog earlier this week. ⁓ sorry, it's an it's an old blog, but I've changed the topic for the next couple of months to sort of ⁓ it's trite, but Ted Lasso lessons. And this is one if you if you think about the show, the show is actually answering this question. that ⁓ Bryan Gorman: I am a big fan of Ted Ted Lasso, absolutely. Tate: You got Ted Lasso and and he's this incredible person. And the show does something that is so rare is that at the at the end of the show, he leaves. so so he leaves and you get to see what happens. Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm. Tate: And again, spoiler alert, we have like it was okay, which is rare. If you have an incredible GM, almost always the person in that seat next isn't going to do that. So ⁓ let me a little more directly, ⁓ if we don't have details on this, this this of is what happens when we don't have that Ted Lasso situation, when when you're running on people and personality. without the system in place. And there was it was even a plot point in in the in the show that ⁓ had this ⁓ of the Ted Lasso way or the Richmond way. The GM was good enough to hold everything together with their bare hands in in the case that we're talking about here. ⁓ And it works, you don't have to build all of the other stuff. So the day they leave, it's like pulling the card out in the middle of a of a house of cards. Everything Falls everything snaps back to whatever the system itself allowed before. yeah. So if you want to avoid it, you you gotta be talking about ⁓ and at what happens when this person goes on vacation. And and ⁓ use periods not as holy crap, we have to staff up this door, but as what breaks? And pay attention to it. Are we picking up the phone and calling this guy three times a day? If that It's happening, you've got a systems problem. Well, you've got a person problem because the person is the system. So that's it. Bryan Gorman: Right. Right. And you know, and and operators they they try fixes constantly. So they've they've come to a point where they they're gonna try a ⁓ something new, maybe a new training program, new bonus plan, you know, new scheduling app maybe. then in six months later they're back to where they started. So, you know, why do they think if they if they find out me to back to your point about root causes, they they figure out what the root causes could be, they put these fixes in place. You know, why do you think over time these fixes ⁓ tend tend to fade? Is it just an execution problem or ⁓ what are your thoughts? Tate: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ so we look at have a catalog of ⁓ the industry calls them interventions, of like 220, 230 now. Cause we have to understand what fixes are available in order to recommend. one of biggest issues we have found is that organizations will choose a ⁓ that they'll choose an intervention, they'll choose a way that they're going to solve a problem. And put all of their effort into the selection and and the launch of that thing. most fixes really only clear the first hurdle of it of at least three. so the is we have a fix. We write it down, you launch it, there's a kickoff meeting. The second one, people actually use this thing on like a normal Tuesday in March. and then the is that. so we're talking restaurants. I'm I'm gonna take a guess here. ⁓ Friday night short staffed with a line out the door is probably a problem. You you need you need to make sure that whatever s ⁓ you have in place works there. Whatever that is, that high stress moment. And so what we're what we find when we go into these places that are telling us you have, you know, we have done these things, we've tried this, and they're not working. Everybody has passed the first one. Bryan Gorman: Sure, sure. Tate: Like this, it exists. We had the kickoff. that is, the training bonus, ⁓ the new application, everybody claps and says, Yes, we've got this, but then they're not doing steps two and three. So six months later, you're back where you started. truth. We find that most organizations that we talk to don't set up systems to watch it much past launch day. They s they have the meet the emails, they train people. And so if your expectation is that the people are just going to do it, in that case, if that's your mindset, of why invest in the measuring, monitoring, tweaking? Because that's that would be wasted expense. And so in What should happen is the organization would do that, realize this, and go back and and build those monitorings. But but they generally, by the time this has happened, they see it as, well, this solution didn't work. It's time to look for the next one. Bryan Gorman: Do you think they just don't give it enough time sometimes, like to let it kind of play out? Tate: That's a that's interesting. answer is ⁓ a yes, but what I would what I would say is that if you haven't invested in those steps two and three, where you're you're coming in and saying, to make it's actually being used on a day-to-day basis and checking to see if it works in those stress times. if you aren't doing that. Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Right. Tate: Waiting longer is going to make things worse unless you commit to stepping up and saying, ⁓ wait, hang, hang on, wait a sec. We just paid a million bucks to get this solution in the door and we're about to throw it out. What if we spend the time to say, okay, let's actually put in the legwork and it's it's legwork and expense to get that thing into place? Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause like what you said really struck a chord with me with about the getting it right just for launch day, get it launched and then we're at we're we're good after that, right? You know? ⁓ Tate: Yeah. So yeah, I don't know. So Brian, I know that you're in the deal with payroll software. Is it do you have issues where people get all like all excited about the the software and then somehow fade off of it or don't end up using all that it can be? Bryan Gorman: Well, ⁓ absolutely. You just yeah, you get ready for that, you know, launch, say, hey, you've got a you've got a check date of this date and we're we're get we're gearing up for that, and then you know you you get through that part of it. And to your point, you're right. You need to there needs to be something in place to make sure that they the adoption rate is there and that they are they know that they they're trained and they know how to use it and and to its fullest extent. So yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Tate: Yeah. we I noticed that and this somewhat off topic, but ⁓ when you something, you have all of that initial excitement about it. Wow, this is gonna be it's gonna change my life. but the number of people who who purchase software ⁓ like like payroll that that are functional on it versus the ones who actually extract maximum value out of it, like I don't know again, it's one of the I don't know what the split is, but it's at least eighty twenty. where the the vast majority are just going to use your baseline functions. The people who are truly getting their value, not sure what your organization does, but I know others, like they have actual events where they pull people together and and they learn these really sophisticated things that you can do. That that level of engagement, that's basically the kind of thing we're saying where possible, we want our organizations to do that, to bring the people in, for them to want to be there, to feel that this is where they're going to grow. Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Hmm. absolutely. so our our show's called the shift change, right? And and and you t you tell clients to look, you know, hard at places where one team off to another. So what goes wrong at the seams and what should operators watch out for? Tate: ⁓ this is of the favorite things that I I love looking at this. And and the fact that you named your show after it is it's wonder it's it's perfect. So most of the time, work is work is pretty good inside of shifts. it it most of the time when we are seeing problems, this is all anecdotal from me, but when I've talked to people about this, the the Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Ha ha. Tate: The break is a tension is carried between shifts. so the closing crew versus ⁓ or some sort of passive aggressive note that's left on the fridge. some sort of prep was supposed to happen that didn't. A handoff that's a seam, and and seams fail first. You know, it works in fabric, it works in organizations, ⁓ because they don't belong to anybody. Each side figures the other one is capable of handling it. So ⁓ yeah, the the first fix almost never fancy. You you give the seam an owner a single name, they get responsibility for whatever crosses that line in either direction. So and and I I fully acknowledge this kind of feels like me saying after all the stuff I just said, yeah, just rely on a person. But that's that's not what I'm saying. ⁓ Bryan Gorman: Right. Tate: I'm trying to suggest that it's the ownership of the seam that matters. when you have that concept, you should be able to put any qualified person in that role and your shop can keep rolling. So it's ⁓ it's not necessarily that you need a personality here. It's that you need a role that's looking at the handoff and saying, is this happening the way that it's supposed to? Is it happening optimally? Bryan Gorman: Well, that same can be said for ⁓ what we do with you know with with software is like from that change over from a sales perspective to an operations perspective, an implementation perspective, what's that look like? So same thing, like, you know, what's that the you're right, 'cause the the handoff is so critically important in that transition 'cause so much can go wrong if it if that handoff isn't clean and it isn't every detail isn't buttoned up. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Tate: Yes. Yeah. and I and and I think going down that line, I I have not put a ton of thought into this specific thing, but looking at handoffs, you're onboarding. There are new ⁓ numerous not just restaurants, where what happens is you show up on ⁓ you've whatever experience during the hiring process, you show up on day one, either they give you a uniform and a mop or they they give you a computer and you sit down. Bryan Gorman: Mm. Well, right. Tate: And there's there's nothing. You just start whatever the work is, they expect that you're, you know, they point you in a direction and you do it. that's a handoff. And that's a handoff that's ⁓ has a really high chance ⁓ that person bouncing out of your organization quickly. They don't feel like they're a part of anything. Yeah. Yeah. Bryan Gorman: Right. Right. No, sure. ⁓ so maybe some practical, you know, questions. so say I run six locations, one store, you know, just keeps having problems over and over. So no matter no matter who I put in there, I have maybe I put a good GM and I'm trying to staff the best I can, you know, what what would you look at first in your opinion to to correct those issues I might be having at the at those locations? Tate: Mm-hmm. ⁓ okay, so six, you got one that's problematic. ⁓ the the store. Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Tate: store is the it's the most useful one you have because if it's continuously problematic and the other ones aren't, it's the only one that we know is telling you the truth. Like if you're having problems, you're you're having problems. The other ones we might not be able to see into. So if store keeps having these problems and you've tried everything else, so you probably put multiple good people in there, they all sank. That's not a coincidence. a and I know this is already ⁓ There's a theme in everything that I'm saying here. You know, I'd quit looking at the people and start looking at what the store carries. store carries the rest, don't. So is the physical layout different, the staffing different, stores under some sort of different load? and that load would explain what swapping out managers never will. I obviously in this situation, I'm not gonna know what that thing is. ⁓ so. Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tate: I would I would suggest looking at this if you've had multiple people in those seats, this isn't a manager problem. You've got a store that eats managers. And for what it's worth, if it was a performance issue and and someone on the staff was making things difficult, it would be the job of that GM, the manager, ⁓ whoever it was, to out to figure that out and deal with it. And if that didn't happen, then there's Probably a reason that hasn't been found yet. So it could be a systemic problem hiding here that seems personal. Like and and the traditional one is the problem is somebody's nephew. ⁓ that that at some point you get managers who come in and they they're told you can't touch this person and it breaks everything. All right. That's it. Bryan Gorman: Mm. Yeah. So, ⁓ you know, what can an operator or or an HR person or HR lead, I guess, you know, listening right now, ⁓ do this week, you know, with no consultant, no budget, what was one thing they can put into into practice ⁓ on all we talked about, you know, this morning? What what could they do? Tate: Yeah. ⁓ assuming no like this is also a a no budget thing. I I would say write pen paper, computer, write down the three problems that keep coming back. The ones you're sick of seeing, whether or you have tried multiple things, although it's great if you have tried to fix them. And and then ⁓ next to one. Figure out it survived a change in people? So if you swapped somebody out and it came back, that's that one's on the system. if you haven't swapped somebody out, it's not really difficult to to do something even without without having to or hire. so one week job swap, if you have a different location, you can put two people and see does does the problem change stores? Or is the problem consistent where it is or does it go away? So it can tell you a lot. And the list, figuring out what those questions are, can really change where the the the longer term money is going because odds are you're spending it on people, particularly from HR, you're you're going to be spending it on people when it's the system. Bryan Gorman: Okay. Yeah. And and and and to kind of wrap up a little bit, ⁓ can you tell me about load map? Because you mentioned that earlier. I wrote it down just ⁓ you know, what what what what is ro load map and ⁓ you know what does it do for an operation like a restaurant? Tate: Let's see. ⁓ load map 30 seconds. ⁓ would come in load map surveys your staff and your leaders. ⁓ it maps how your place actually runs instead of how your org shar org chart says it runs. And it shows you where the system's carrying too much. and what kinds fixes, what interventions actually have a shot ⁓ at sticking you. Bryan Gorman: Yeah. ⁓ Tate: Snapback is one of the the most common things we see where you put all the investment in. It works for three weeks, three months, and then you're back to where you were. Stokefire is the only place right now that's running it. We have a lot of people who are wanting to become practitioners. but yeah, so That's the short version, I guess. the whole episode, everything we've talked about was kind of the long one. Bryan Gorman: Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Well, I do have a couple of fun questions for you. what is the overrated fix in the industry? Tate: You're you're looking for short answers here? Okay. Okay. Yeah. ⁓ let's see. Most overrated fix, I would say retraining. training doesn't stick. People didn't forget. ⁓ the Friday rush unteaches it if it didn't work. So until you change what act what the work actually rewards, retraining is paying twice for a a lesson. Your system is just gonna erase again. So Bryan Gorman: Yeah, sure. Yeah, it's more more of a rapid fire, I guess. I mean not not too rapid fire, but ⁓ yeah. Okay. And then what's one question every, you know, owner operator should ask their GMs this month? ⁓ Tate: I'm glad you asked this question because I I I gave the answer earlier, but I wanted to repeat it. ⁓ ask them what breaks when they take two weeks off. And so if the answer is a list of names, the store runs on personalities and personalities can quit. if the honest answer is everything, the store is a GM with a building around them. Either way, you've just got your ⁓ the snapback forecast for free. Bryan Gorman: Okay. Hmm. Wonderful. and then what's the biggest thing corporate gets wrong about why, you know, stores miss their numbers? What's your thoughts on that? Tate: ⁓ another one from what I have seen, I think they tend to grade managers as if every single store carries the same load, same menu, same brand. completely different problems can be underneath. So the trade areas are different. layouts, the of employees. If you rank one of your heavy stores against a light one, your best managers are going to learn to dodge hard stores. So the hardest store gets the greenest leadership and and corporate calls that a manager problem. So biggest thing is I guess once again, let's stick with the theme, ⁓ seeing seeing ⁓ systemic ⁓ as personal ones. Bryan Gorman: Awesome. And then to wrap us up, Tate, you know, where could people find you if they want to learn more about ⁓ you and Stokefire? Tate: probably ⁓ Stokefire.com is our website. I can say the content in hey, what it is we're doing. load map is relatively new and it's not fully represented on the site. However, going to our blog is ⁓ if you're wanting to learn about stuff. There's a lot about load map there and it's growing. As well as ⁓ hello at stokefire.com if you want to reach out to us. yeah. Bryan Gorman: Perfect. Awesome. Well thank you, Tate. Appreciate your time today. and ⁓ look forward to talking to you again soon. Tate: Yep, really appreciate it, Brian. This was fun. Bryan Gorman: Thank you. Tate: I hope