Find Your Fire, Fan Your Flame: Leadership Lessons for Restaurant Operators

Bryan Gorman: Brian Gorman. Excited to have Jason. Good, my friend Jason Barnaby on the the show today. He is the founder and president of Firestarters Inc.

And welcome to the show, Jason. Yeah. That's right. Yes, Jason Barnaby: Thanks, Brian.

Thanks for having me. Glad we could finally get it to work out in the midst of life and things. Bryan Gorman: yes. Broken air conditioners, broken cars.

You you name it. You name it. Life, life stuff, yeah, for sure. Jason Barnaby: Life.

Yes. Bryan Gorman: Well, for for the listeners out there, maybe kind of share your story, tell us who Jason Barnaby is and and what you do and and and go from there, yeah. Jason Barnaby: Yeah. so I I say often when I do keynote speaking, one of the lines in my intro is that I've lived a lot of life in the life I've lived, and you and I were just talking about a little of it.

so the real condensed version, graduate of IU was a ski bum after college in Colorado for a couple of years. still wandering and wound up in Poland, where I met my now wife of twenty-nine years. Wound up moving back to Poland or moving to Poland, I guess. Lived there for eight years, where we owned a coffee shop.

I went back and got my master's degree, which was interesting because I almost flunked out of IU undergrad twice. and was a college professor in Poland for several years, came back to the US, supported my family of five at the time, as a Fine dining waiter for a couple of years at Morton Steakhouse in Indianapolis, which did Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Jason Barnaby: not survive, did not survive COVID. We could talk about Bryan Gorman: COVID.

Mm-hmm. Jason Barnaby: that. I have a I have an interesting comparison of one that made it and one that didn't. Bryan Gorman: Okay, yeah.

Jason Barnaby: And wound up as a training facilitator in a slow moving conservative mutual insurance company, which I mean, if you know me, I don't know how I lasted almost 10 years, but I think it was because in those 10 years I had eight different jobs. three of which I helped create. So I think maybe that was part of the reason. And then in May of this year, I celebrated eight years of being on my own with Firestarters.

And the the vision, the big vision is to change the world one fiery heart at a time. And I do that by helping people find their fire, fan their flame, and igniting their life and whatever it is that that looks like for them because it's different for all of us. Bryan Gorman: Yeah, no, for sure. in fact, you know, you call yourself the chief fire starter, tribe leader.

Jason Barnaby: Yeah. Bryan Gorman: and your company started with what you know called the gift of severance, right, back in twenty eighteen. So maybe take us Jason Barnaby: Correct. Bryan Gorman: back to that moment, you know, what did what's that all about?

Jason Barnaby: Yeah. I had read a book. Well, listen to a book 'cause I've which is probably already apparent from this conversation, but I have ADHD and so I listen to books more than I can sit and and read them. But I was listening to a book when I was still employed in the corporate world by a guy named Seth Godin.

I love Seth. I got Bryan Gorman: No, yeah. Jason Barnaby: I got to see him speak. I actually have a picture of him with me on my website.

You know how they tell you you shouldn't meet your heroes because you'll be disappointed. Not true with Seth Godin. That guy was Bryan Gorman: Mm. Mm hmm.

He's amazing. Jason Barnaby: I I lean I I totally I I completely fanboyed all over him. He was still like Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Jason Barnaby: eating lunch.

I went and interrupted his lunch. I said, Can I take a picture with you? I knelt down next to him at the table. And Brian, when I did that, he like he leaned his head over and put his head on my head and I almost started crying.

Like it was just, it was so tender and so sweet. And he was so kind. but he wrote this book called Tribes and the and the the basic premise of the book is that there are tribes of people, tribes in air quotes, tribes of people all over the world in your community that are that are looking for a leader. And his whole thing was, why not you?

And he had, you know, lots of different things that he talked about. And I thought, well, you know, that's really cool. And I had gone to a leadership convention and one of the speakers asked he's one of the very powerful questions he said, he said, If you are a leader, whose permission are you waiting for to lead? And there was I was there with some friends that were working with me at that company at the time and a friend of mine kind of poked me in the back and she was like, uh-huh, are you listening to that?

And I was like, shut up back there. I don't need you talking to me. And but on the drive home that day, I was like, Okay, do what you have with what you can where you are. What can I do?

And I started this group called Tribe Vibe based on this quote that says your vibe attracts your tribe. And that group grew from six people that I originally invited to three hundred people in about nine months. And we would get together, watch a TED talk, see how we could change the culture. And I can say this now after some after much reflection and therapy.

I had more social and political clout than The leadership and that was a threat. And so how do you Bryan Gorman: Mm. Jason Barnaby: get rid of the leader of a movement? You get rid of them.

And so Bryan Gorman: Mm. Jason Barnaby: I got the I call it the gift of severance. about six months earlier, my daughter had come running through the kitchen and she just stopped on her way. She, I think she was eight at the time, and she was on her way to jump on the trampoline in the back of in the backyard.

And she just kind of stopped out of nowhere and looked up at me. And she's like, Daddy, do you like your job? I was like, Damn, how did she know? Like I thought I was way better at hiding this.

And I gave Bryan Gorman: Yeah, right. Jason Barnaby: her some BS parent answer, you know, like benefits and you know, try to dumb it down. And I was like, Does that make sense, sweetie? I'll never forget this, Brian.

She looked up at me and she goes, Yeah, I guess. Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Jason Barnaby: And then she kind of shrugged her shoulders and she goes, I still think you need a new job, and ran out to the back backyard. Bryan Gorman: Ha ha.

Jason Barnaby: And so I got six months of severance. I saw the writing on the wall, probably six months before, if not before that. I knew it was coming. I had hired a business consultant to help me figure out, like I knew I had these things in me that I wanted to do.

I just didn't know. I say that she helped me take the the swirling cloud of chaos of ideas in my brain Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Jason Barnaby: and turn it into a framework for a business. And That's what I started doing.

So I do keynote speaking, I do executive coaching. And right now I'm doing fractional. I made a pivot about three years ago. So I'm really mostly working with sales teams.

Bryan Gorman: Okay. Yeah. Jason Barnaby: but, you know, trying to just like it says on that little thing back there, like what's striking the match? What's that one little thing that you can do that's gonna make a difference today that'll make tomorrow easier and the next day easier than that, and the next day easier than that?

It's just a series of I like to say that Forrest Gump said life is like a box of chocolates, but I like to say that life is like a box of matches. But it doesn't do anything unless you take the match out and strike it, so Bryan Gorman: No, very true. Very true. why don't you take us back, 'cause you mentioned that Morton story.

I'd love to I'd love to hear your take on that. 'Cause Jason Barnaby: Yeah. Bryan Gorman: yeah, w with with one succeeding and one not succeeding. And why?

Yeah. Jason Barnaby: Yeah. So I I I worked at Morton's for a couple of years. I I was full time supporting my family.

I love customer service. I love sales. I mean, Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm. Jason Barnaby: I got into sales when I was nine or ten years old as a paper boy.

I don't think you can even do that anymore in this world that we live in. Bryan Gorman: Right. Jason Barnaby: But I mean, I had dude, at 10 years old, when I went out and collected for my route. You know, you pay and then you get whatever the tips were that were left over.

I had like a hundred and fifty dollars in tips that were left over in cash at ten years old, dude. That was like Bryan Gorman: Ha Jason Barnaby: so, you know, I learned at a very early age, like this guy likes his paper behind the door, and this lady likes it to have it like tucked under her mat. And and some people couldn't care less as long as it made it somewhere on the driveway. Bryan Gorman: Right.

Jason Barnaby: They were fine with that. You know? And so as I grew up and was in different leadership positions and different things, you just realize that everybody has their own taste. But more than anything, people just like to be, people like to be seen Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm.

Jason Barnaby: and people like to be taken care of. And and we go out to especially fine dining for an experience and to be c taken care of and to celebrate, to have somebody else cook and do the dishes than than us, right? And what I thought was very interesting about the the COVID situation with Morton's, and they struggled. I will say that they struggled in Indy because there's a row here in Indy that has a lot of the fine dining restaurants on it.

So you can there's like a seafood place and a couple of steak places, and you know, but it's all pretty much on one street. Morton's was sort of off of the beaten path. It was down in a basement. It was very much like the Chicago era, like.

You know, you go down and it's dark and it's, you know, kind of the gangster, you know, Frank Sinatra playing, leather seats, you know, we we used to we used to literally part of our uniform was we had we had to carry a lighter and we had to carry cigar, whatever you call those things to snip the end of the cigar off because we sold Bryan Gorman: yeah, yeah. Jason Barnaby: we also sold cigars and sometimes we would come around with like the box and like, do you do you want a cigar?

so part, you know, you had to clip it and light people's cigars and that sort of thing. And obviously that changed as smoking laws changed and different things. But what I thought was very interesting is because I still had a couple of friends who worked at Morton's during COVID and, you know, everybody's in contact because you're not nobody's working, nobody's doing anything. And I just was asking her, she was a she was in management by that time.

We started together as servers. And I said, What are you guys doing for COVID? Like what kind of, you know, are you, are you open one day a week? Are you doing any kind of takeout?

Are you doing any sort of that? And she said, no, we we all got furloughed. And they furloughed them for, I don't remember what it was. It was a couple of months.

I think at the beginning, I think like a lot of people, like, how long is this thing gonna last? Right. Bryan Gorman: Right. Sure.

Jason Barnaby: right around the corner from us is a my gosh, I'm gonna forget the name of it. It's not McCormick and Schmick's. It's it's another high end steakhouse. Bryan Gorman: Not Ruth Chris, is it?

Jason Barnaby: No, it's not Ruth Chris. It's the other one that's anyway. I'll think about it. they started doing curbside service and carryout, and they thrived and Morton's shut down right after COVID was over.

actually I think they shut down before COVID was was was over. And to me, and I see this everywhere, I see it in the re I see it a lot in the restaurant business. Especially if you, if you find a thing that works, a burger, a pizza, a whatever, Bryan Gorman: Right. Jason Barnaby: you know, Mortons had their thing.

And their thing was to be in this dark basement, you know, ambiance that they had. Well, that wasn't available during COVID. And I find that people say, well, this is the, this is the way we've always done it. And I like to say, and I know it's provocative and it's provocative on purpose, but if it's the way that you've always done it, it's probably wrong.

Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm. Jason Barnaby: And by that, I don't mean that you need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I don't mean that you need to burn it all down and just, you know, scrape the ashes and start from scratch. But if it's the way that you've always done it, is there a better way?

Is there a different way? Are there some enhancements that you can make? you know, if you've got this great burger, like are there other I I see this all the time in like the potato chip industry because I have teenagers, right? So like they bring home these flavors and I'm like, what in the world is that?

Bryan Gorman: Ha ha ha. Jason Barnaby: And what I love about that is it they're like, let's give it a shot. Cause if we can find some market share out there that loves this flavor, if it's a particular part of the country or whatever, we'll keep share, we'll keep making that flavor. But it's not just, you know, when I think when we grew up, it was probably.

you know, regular chips, barbecue chips, and maybe sour cream and onion chips. Like there was none of this like ketchup and pickle flavor or, you know, any of that sort of stuff that's out there now. And what I saw with Morton's is and and I saw this just in the way that they they approached things. And I would imagine it's still very similar.

it was this idea of that, well, this is the thing that has always worked for us. And Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm. Jason Barnaby: we're just going to keep doing it this way. And What I what I saw is that, you know, I would work a Friday night and I would do okay.

And I had friends who worked at Ruth Chris, literally a block away, who killed it because and part of it is what they say with restaurant business location, location, location. And that definitely was part of it. But some of it, they there just wasn't this, you know, you'd bring up something new or you'd bring up this new idea, and it was, it was like, hmm. You know, if i Bryan Gorman: Yeah.

Jason Barnaby: if if the response was like, Yeah, good idea, we'll we'll think about that, you might as well that's that's a no. Bryan Gorman: Right, right. Jason Barnaby: so I just thought it was very interesting that They didn't whether they didn't want to adapt, whether it was too late, but just there just wasn't the flexibility there to do things a way that that people at the time wanted them done. Because I think people still would would have loved to have had, I mean, their fillets were amazing.

I think Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm. Jason Barnaby: people still would have loved to have a fillet. Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Jason Barnaby: But it's like, well, the fillet doesn't need to be served in this basement and a leather booth.

I can eat it at home at my coffee table streaming whatever it was I'm streaming on Netflix. Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Jason Barnaby: And and so, you know, the story is it's dead. And Bryan Gorman: Yeah.

Jason Barnaby: I don't think they'll ever come back to indie. Bryan Gorman: Wow. Well customer experience is huge. I mean it's just it's such a it's such a big thing.

You have to have it, you know, 'cause Jason Barnaby: It really, really is. Bryan Gorman: it's a crowded marketplace and you have to set yourself apart somehow, you know? So yeah. Jason Barnaby: Absolutely.

Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Well I got a scenario for you. So you're say you're a GM and Jason Barnaby: Yeah. Bryan Gorman: you're running a three million dollar restaurant and there's Jason Barnaby: Yeah.

Bryan Gorman: a f there's a fly and you might see it's a fly just buzzing all all over here. Jason Barnaby: No worries. Bryan Gorman: So you're working, you know, 60 hours a week, covering the call-offs, closing Friday, opening Saturday, you know, approaching burnout, right? So when someone hears, like finds your fire, it can sound like maybe a luxury.

So what do you say to the leader who says, I don't have time for fire. I'm just I'm just surviving. I'm just making it through the day. Jason Barnaby: That's such a good question.

By the way, Capitol Grill is the name of the place. I just looked it up while you were. They Bryan Gorman: That's okay. Jason Barnaby: are still in business and doing very well.

the qu gosh. So here there are gonna be people who are gonna disagree with this, and I understand that, and that's fine. When I hear people say that I don't have enough time, especially when you're in a situation in a place like a restaurant that has a system, right? So you you have GMs, you Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm.

Jason Barnaby: have AGMs, you have potentially team leads, you definitely have people who are like shift leads or your strongest people, right? Do you have a healthy enough relationship with your ego to say I can't do everything? And that's okay. Because I typically find the folks who say that I don't have time to do anything, they cannot imagine not being the one to do all the things.

And here's the thing nobody does all the things. Nobody can do all the things. I've never met anybody that can do all the things. I've never met anybody who gets to the end of the day every day.

And has zero emails and everything on their to-do list is crossed off. And if I meet that person, I will sit at their feet and study for as long as it takes to figure out what it is that they're doing. So I I will caveat that by saying I understand and I do, I understand that there is tremendous turnover in the restaurant business. I understand that people are in the restaurant business for several different reasons.

I was myself. I left the restaurant business. I left two years of serving full time to go into the corporate job for 10 years that eventually got eliminated. Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm.

Jason Barnaby: So I get it. I don't believe it's a luxury. I believe it's a matter of prioritization and intentionality. So if I think a fantastic exercise for somebody like a GM who listens to this and goes, Well, that's a luxury.

I I would love for you to make a list of all of the things that you do on a typical day or in a typical week and ask yourself, what are things that are on this list that I can stop doing? And one of my favorite phrases that when that I use when I coach executives is your no. In other words, I'm delegating this, I'm not going to do this, I'm not taking care of this anymore. This is not my baby.

I'm passing this off. Your no is somebody else's yes. And all of us have had places in our in our careers where our boss has said, Hey, could you do X for me? And we're like, Yes.

They finally asked me. I'm doing it. This is the thing. And we get so excited.

So I think part of this is are you developing your people? Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm. Jason Barnaby: Are you delegating? Are you helping them figure out and understand what needs to be done?

there's a really good book that somebody recommended to me years before I went into business with myself called The Entrepreneurial Myth. And they talk about. The reason that most small businesses, and interestingly, they were talking about like service businesses like restaurants, you know, the person that opens a coffee shop, the person that opens a bakery, the person that opens a restaurant. The reason that those fail is because they have the idea or they have the vision and they want to do everything because they don't think anybody else is going to do it as well as they do.

And if if that, if if there's somebody that's listening to this and you're a GM and you have that mindset, you are setting yourself And your staff up for failure because you will burn out. You cannot do everything. And the another question that I like to ask people when they're like, well, I can delegate. I'm like, okay.

Are you more interested in getting the outcome? Or are you more interested in how the outcome is completed, Bryan Gorman: Mm. Jason Barnaby: is achieved? Because if you are more interested in the way that it's done, my guess is you are micromanaging people and you are not allowing them the freedom to do whatever.

Because to me, the thing that I've learned is okay, you might, you might do it differently than me, but if the outcome is the same, that's a win. That's Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm. Jason Barnaby: a that's that is an absolute win. And and the other thing that I find is a lot of folks that are in these, because you know.

With restaurants, it's typically s I mean, it can be a big staff, but it's not a huge group of people. You know everybody in the building. you know something about everybody in the building. If if you find that people are coming and knocking on your door for every little thing, hey, what about this?

What about hey, we reset the dining room because we've got this this, you know, this big party that's coming in. Can you come check? Why why do you have to check it? Bryan Gorman: Right.

Jason Barnaby: Train your people to be the way. I mean, sure, come out and go, okay, yeah, it looks great. Thank you. You know, I'll come check it or whatever.

But every little piece, every little step has to be checked off by you. I guarantee you you're burned out and your people probably don't really like you because you micromanage the crap out of them. Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm. Jason Barnaby: So I don't think that I I understand that it can be a luxury, but I also think if you are truly intentional and you are, you know, I hear I hear this from some of the executives I coach.

Or executives I work with and it for me it it's gotten to be a little scary when I hear somebody who's got a lot of responsibility go, I'm totally open to feedback. Are ya? I mean, are are you open to the I know that you're open to the feedback that you're awesome, but are you open to the feedback of you're you're kind of Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Yeah.

Right. Jason Barnaby: a micromanaging pain in the butt? I'm not sure you're open to that feedback. Bryan Gorman: Very true.

Very true. That's awesome. so you know, I I I love the term that you've you've you've coined called what if about. So maybe define that for us.

give Jason Barnaby: Yeah. Bryan Gorman: us an example of what a what if about sounds like inside someone's head. Yeah. Jason Barnaby: Sure.

so when I wrote my first book, which is back there on the shelf, Igniting the Firestarter Within, I was looking for a word that encapsulated automatic negative thoughts, head trash, imposter syndrome, all of that into one. And I have a master's degree in English. I've taught English at the college level for many, many years. And I'm like, I can't find the word.

Well, I have a master's degree. I'm entitled. I'll just make up a word. So I did.

And the word is what if abouts. The definition is the pesky doubts and fears, kind of like this fly, the peskiness of that fly, right? Exactly. The pe the pesky Bryan Gorman: Yes.

So you're the fly in Indiana this year. Jason Barnaby: doubts and fears that work hard to keep us stuck and afraid. So I'll give you an example of one potentially for and let's continue on the fine dining idea since that's where we were. Boss says, Hey, we're we're running a competition.

who can who can upsell and sell the most bottles of this of this wine? Whatever, you know, maybe the wine company's running a competition to. So whoever sells the most bottles of this wine by the end of the week. gets whatever the prize is.

A what if about in that scenario sounds like, well, I don't know very much about wine. And what if I what if I what if I try to sell it to the table and they ask me questions that I don't know the answer to? And the thing with what if abouts is it's never just one. So what happens is this triggers a chain reaction.

What if what if they ask me a question that I don't know the answer to? Well if that happens What if then they start to question like all of the stuff I've already told them about the meal? Or what if they don't believe me? And then, well, if that happens, what about my tip?

And I got to make rent or I got to pay Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm. Jason Barnaby: my mortgage or I got to pay my phone bill, then I'm not going to be able to do that. And so, in that very short, I mean, this happens in seconds in our brains. We've already convinced ourselves that we're not going to do it.

And so and it gets worse when we look around at other people that are on the floor who are killing it. And then we start beating ourselves up and go, Yeah, I'm not as good as that person. I'm not as good as her. I'm never going to be able to sell as much as they do.

And so when the next contest comes, you're already primed to not do anything about it. Bryan Gorman: Yeah. You've already lost it. Yeah.

Jason Barnaby: And and and again, let's go back to ego. I'm not wearing it today, but I typically wear a t-shirt that says comfortable being uncomfortable. You have Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Yeah, you do.

Yeah. Jason Barnaby: to be willing, you have to be willing to sit in that discomfort. You and that discomfort can look like I don't know what I need to know. I need to get better at this skill.

I need to practice this. I mean, how I literally used to practice, Some of the cause at Morton's, I don't know if you've ever been to a Morton's, but we used to have to do this ridiculous Bryan Gorman: I have. Mm-hmm. Jason Barnaby: menu presentation where you would have to like show the meat.

We literally had to like hold a tomato and a sp this is how ingrained it is. I haven't worked there for years and I Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Jason Barnaby: could probably still give you the spiel. But we would have to we'd Bryan Gorman: Yeah.

Jason Barnaby: have this huge beefsteak tomato and this asparagus that we would have to hold up. And my I I did the I kind of seasoned it with some Jasonism, but I'm like, I hold it up and I would say, You probably think this looks like a tomato and some asparagus, and you are exactly right. And then, you know, we'd have to talk about like our produce and and whatever. But I used to I practice that because we got tested.

I practice that in the mirror. Do you know how ridiculous you sound as an as a grown man talking about produce Bryan Gorman: Ha ha. Jason Barnaby: to yourself in the mirror? I did not like it.

Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Jason Barnaby: And I passed my menu test on the first time and some of the other people that I was hired with did not. And it's it was uncomfortable and I didn't like it. And I got better at it.

And guess what? What I have found with what if abouts is when you stand up to them, they are much like bullies. Bullies are not used to being stood up to. And when you punch a bully in the throat, they usually go away.

Because they're like, I wasn't expecting that. Well, when you stand up to your what if abouts, and I've gotten to the place in my life, I recommend doing this when you're not among people that you don't know. But I s I say out loud, I'm like, no, shut up. No, that's not, I'm not that person.

I am not this thing. And I'll give you another really quick example. I got hired three years ago to go talk to the heads. There were 10 of them.

The heads of childhood oncology research at Riley Children's Hospital in Indianapolis. I mentioned that I almost flunked out of IU twice. So I'm getting ready to go talk to these people that are ridiculously smart. Their leader had said that many of them have both PhDs in medicine and MDs.

And I said, How much, how much time do these folks spend In education before they get these jobs. And he said, on average, postgraduate, 10 to 15 years a per per person. And I was like, I probably shouldn't have asked that question. So I'm driving there.

It's about a 20-minute drive from my house. And the what ifabouts were like, who do you think you are? You're going to go talk to oncology people. You don't know jack about cancer.

You don't know anything about, you know, like just whipping me. And I I was listening to the radio at the time or listening to a playlist that I play before I go do a gig. And I turned the music off. And out loud I said, Who am I?

I'm the guy who's on the invitation that they're coming to see over lunch. I'm the guy who's going to be introduced by the head of their department. I'm the guy that's getting paid to go do this thing. That's who I am.

And then those things shut up Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm. Jason Barnaby: because they're not being used to being talked back to. They're used to being in control. And when I ask, Brian, when I do a keynote and stuff and I ask people if the if the content warrants it and it's part of the keynote, I will have people write down their what if abouts and I'll say just write down one.

Most of the time, two, three, four, sometimes five on an index card. And I have collected about twelve hundred of them from keynotes that I've done across the country. And one day I'm gonna put them all together and that's gonna be the subject of a book. But it's we all have them.

Bryan Gorman: Right. Jason Barnaby: And we all think that nobody else does. So we're Bryan Gorman: Right. Right.

Jason Barnaby: not so we're not gonna speak up and go, well, I d I don't I don't know or how do I do that? How do I get better at how do I get better at upselling? Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm. Jason Barnaby: And and I'll you know, if if if somebody's listened to this and they're like, Yeah, how do I?

Get curious. What kind of an experience are you looking for today? What brought you in? Bryan Gorman: Right.

Jason Barnaby: I just finished a six week engagement with a local restaurant here where I was doing development with their staff and their their executive chef, they were saying that whenever he seats a table, he will say, When were you when did you dine with us last? Not have you ever been here before. Bryan Gorman: Mm. Jason Barnaby: When did you dine with us last?

And that's also not a yes-no question. So it's an open-ended question, right? When did you Bryan Gorman: Right. It's an open question.

Yes. Mm-hmm. Jason Barnaby: dine with us last? we've never been here before.

Okay, great. Now you're brand new, and I can tell you all the things I would tell a brand new client. When was the last time you were here? well, I was here three weeks ago with my family.

Fantastic. What did you enjoy when you were here before? What kind of drinks? Or is there something on the menu that you didn't get a chance to try that you're excited to try tonight?

What brought you back? Curiosity. Because then it i if you're asking them the questions, you don't have to know everything. And it takes the Bryan Gorman: Right.

Right. Jason Barnaby: pressure off. Bryan Gorman: Well, detachment, right? I mean Jason Barnaby: Yes.

Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I know we're yeah. Jason Barnaby: Which is it it's my friend Brian Neal, who's here in Indianapolis, who runs Blind Zebra, talks about Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jason Barnaby: detachment and his and I I loved his definition for me was was very freeing. And I think for people in sales, which let's face it, if you're in any kind of restaurant work, you're in sales I I would say even if you're the di person in the dish tank, because you are the product is being sold on the plates that you clean.

Bryan Gorman: Right. Yeah, absolutely. Jason Barnaby: So you're part of that as well. And when he talked about detachment, he said, or when he talks about it still, it's it doesn't matter if I win or if I lose, that that win or that loss do not define who I am.

I am the same person on either side of that equation. Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm. Jason Barnaby: And I think a good thing to ch for For people who are in sales to check themselves if you are too detached. If you win, like do you ride that for, you know, does that I'm not saying don't celebrate, but do you ride that for like weeks at a time?

And if you Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm. Jason Barnaby: lose, do you ride that for weeks at a time? Does that become who you are and how you present yourself? Cause if it does, then you're not detached.

Bryan Gorman: No, absolutely. Yeah. A hundred percent. It's a great definition.

Yeah. Yeah. Jason Barnaby: It was it was life changing for me because I realized that I mean, especially in the business that I'm in, because a lot of what I sell is me. I'm selling me.

I am the Bryan Gorman: Right. Right. Jason Barnaby: service. I am the facilitator.

I am the speaker. It is my experience in life that I'm selling through a keynote. And Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Jason Barnaby: there are sometimes when people, you know, will go through it and they're like, Well, we've got a couple other people that we're considering and I don't win.

Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm. Jason Barnaby: Guess what? Those aren't my people. Bryan Gorman: Right.

Right. Jason Barnaby: And and I have to be okay with that. And the other example of that that I use, which is relevant to what we're talking about today, within seven minutes of my house on the southeast side of Indianapolis, there are no fewer than five different pizza places. There's a Papa John's, a Donato's, a Papa Murphy's, a Little Caesars, and a Pizza Hut.

Little Caesars people don't go to Donato's. Donato's pizza, Donato's people don't go to Chicago's. You know it and here's Bryan Gorman: Right. Jason Barnaby: the thing, it's all dough, cheese and sauce and some Bryan Gorman: Ha ha ha Jason Barnaby: toppings.

Like it's not rocket science. So part of this too is like find find your people and and love on them and care about them. Cause going back to what I said, people want to be seen, people want to be served, people want to be taken care of. If you have somebody that stops in your pizza place every Friday and picks up the same thing.

And you know them, then I think as a restaurant person, it's incumbent upon you to be curious. Hey, you're back for your fourth pizza in a week. What what what brings do are do your kids love it? Can I give you some extra Bryan Gorman: Yeah.

Jason Barnaby: sauce? Have you tried this? Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Exactly.

Jason Barnaby: And instead, you know, a lot of times we're like, hey Joe, have a great weekend. Here's your pizza. That's Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Right.

Jason Barnaby: a missed opportunity, in my opinion. Bryan Gorman: For sure. No, absolutely. Yeah.

so you've also created a hashtag called Torch Fear. I Jason Barnaby: Yes. Bryan Gorman: use it a lot. so walk us through the mechanics of that.

You know, when a whiff one when a what if about shows up, right? What's the actual step by step for torching it instead of, you know, feeding it? Jason Barnaby: so I'll give you I'll give you two I'll give you two tracks that you can take. One is the mental track.

We'll talk about that first. And then the second is the the actual physical track. So the the mental track, and I heard this phrase recently from somebody, and I don't know who it was, but I've been repeating it and I'm using it in my life. So the torching fear thing, what if about's love to keep you stuck and afraid?

So They are they are firmly rooted on the side of the equation of all the things that could go wrong. I used to think that that was just a s like why why would I waste my time thinking about all the things that could go wrong? Well, it actually is a good it's a good exercise, right? Like be prepared for the things that could go wrong.

Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm. Jason Barnaby: And what if all of those things that you're afraid of don't happen? So well well what if I do this? Let's go back to the upselling wine.

What if I do this and they ask me questions? Okay. what if they don't? And it's fine.

What if they ask you a question that you don't know the answer to and you go, that's a great question. Let me go ask our Salmonier. And then in that situation, you've learned and hopefully you've upsold that wine as well. but the phrase that that I really like is put your thoughts on trial.

So here's the fear. The fear is whatever whatever it is, it's X. Okay. What evidence do I have that this is going to be the outcome?

What evidence do I have that's contrary to this being the outcome? How much of this in my head is just completely made up? And if you can be brave enough to make the decision to go forward in the face of fear, I like to tell people to go back and do an audit and say, okay, all those things that you thought were going to happen, how many of them actually did? Bryan Gorman: Right.

Jason Barnaby: Nine times out of ten, none of them did. Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm. Jason Barnaby: And in fact, it winds up being a wild success. Most of us are going to stand on the other side.

This is why I use this example a lot. This is why, like, remember homecoming dances and proms? Like you Bryan Gorman: Sure, sure. Jason Barnaby: go, the music's playing, dance floor's empty.

If you've got a hundred people there, I guarantee you at least 20 people want to get out on the dance floor and dance, but nobody wants to be the first person. But once that first person goes out there, then it's like, Now I have Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Jason Barnaby: permit like now it's easier. I'm not gonna be the first Bryan Gorman: Yeah.

Jason Barnaby: one, right? So now I can go out there and do it. And you wind up having a really good time. Here's the physical piece of it as well.

I encourage people, I'm a tactile learner. So I like to write things down. And and because of, I don't know if it's because of ADHD or just the way my brain works, but I find that when I take all of these fears and these worries that are running around in my head. Because they they you know, they pop up out of nowhere and they'll they'll sidetrack me and they'll confuse me and and they will lead to more fears.

If I can take those and write them all down and I see them, I'm like, okay. There they are. Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Jason Barnaby: Maybe this one or this one is is a true fear, but some of this other is just BS that's been made up in my head with very, very proper fire safety in mind.

So do this Bryan Gorman: Mm. Jason Barnaby: outside over a grill or a fire pit or something. I don't recommend doing it inside because of smoke alarms and other things. But take that piece of paper, turn on your favorite song, your favorite jam, mix your favorite drink, do whatever it is that like makes you happy and set that thing on fire.

And I'm telling you, and I'm telling your listeners, I've had people, this is part of a program that I teach. And I have people who like put this off and put this off and put this off. And when they finally do it, they they will message me almost immediately. Sometimes they'll send me a picture of the thing burning and say, This was so cathartic.

This was so helpful. Because what happens is you and I say ignite hope and torch fear. So at the the fears are being torched. And it's also igniting the hope of no longer being afraid of the things that we're afraid of.

And I love the question, what if? Like what it okay, yes, it could go wrong, but what if it goes right? Bryan Gorman: Right. Jason Barnaby: And and if we could if you know, if I had a dream I would I would want people to at least spend as much time on the fear side, to spend as much time on the other side of what could possibly go ridiculously incredibly well as you do on the fear side.

So if you spend five minutes on the fear side, spend five minutes thinking about what happens if it goes right. Because most Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm. Jason Barnaby: of us don't spend any time thinking about what happens if it goes right. We just stay stuck in the fear.

Bryan Gorman: Right. No. Focus on the negative. Yeah.

Jason Barnaby: And then the the what if abouts are like, Yep, you suck. Didn't work last time. You're not gonna do Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Jason Barnaby: it.

They're smarter than you. You're a piece of crap. Your parents didn't care. Your coach told you where you were a loser.

Whatever. And then in your head you're like, we just turn into ee ores. Yeah, well, Bryan Gorman: Yeah, right. Jason Barnaby: I guess I can't.

Guess it's not gonna work. So I won't. Bryan Gorman: Right. Yeah.

Jason Barnaby: And it's so it's I hate when I see people give in to fear. The thing that I love is to see people strike that match and see that like, that thing that I thought was gonna happen that I was terrified of didn't happen. Because momentum begets momentum and it just takes that first that first match strike. Bryan Gorman: Yeah.

Absolutely. So to to finish up, Jason, if every listener did one exercise, you know, from igniting the Firestarter within this week, you know, what what would what would that be? What would you assign to them as as that you know one takeaway from from our our discussion today? Jason Barnaby: I would say it's a it's a question that I learned in a coaching certification program that I did last year and I think it's an incredibly powerful question.

And when I ask it in a coaching session, people look at me and they're like, It's a super simple question, but it's incredibly powerful. What do you want? Like get really honest about what you want. Do you want the next job?

Do you want to make more money? Do you want to live in a different place? Do you want to have a better body physically? Do you want to be more hydrated?

Do you want to be more well-rested? Whatever, what do you want? And then whatever the answer to that question is, make a list of five things, five action items. Or you know what?

Make one. What's one thing? And and when I tell people to do this, do do small. Don't do big.

Nobody says I'm gonna go climb Mount Everest today and they leave and fly there tomorrow and like I'm going up the damn mountain. It's a series Bryan Gorman: R right. Right. Jason Barnaby: of tiny little things.

It's it's the gear, it's the it's all the things. So and I I find that so many people have this goal over here and they're like, that's so big. How do I get there? When I ran my first, last and only full marathon, Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm.

Jason Barnaby: I got on a training program for nine months. I had run several half marathons right up to the point that I started training. My very first training run was one mile. I could run a mile laying down almost at that point.

Bryan Gorman: Right. Right. Jason Barnaby: So what did I do? I went and ran one mile and I did a happy dance when I got home because I'm because that's another thing.

You need to celebrate that that success. But start small and start with something that you know you're gonna be successful at. Celebrate that because then when you pull the match out of the matchbox, that next match is so much easier to strike when you can see that other one that's been burned. And you're like, yeah, I did that yesterday.

now I'm gonna do the next thing and the next and the next. And before you know it, you're standing around this incredible bonfire that you've built one match at a time and and it's the thing that you want. And it's that easy. And it's that hard.

Bryan Gorman: Yeah. No, very well said. So Jason, where can someone find you? you know, your book, Firestarters Inc.

, where's the best Yeah. Jason Barnaby: Appreciate that. you can get the book on Amazon. Just go out and search Igniting the Firestarter Within.

I am on Instagram. I I typically just I do a lot of like stupid real sharing on Instagram most of the time, but it's for Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Jason Barnaby: for Gen Xers a lot of stuff that I think is funny. so I'm on Instagram as Firestarters Inc.

I do a l I do most of my social media on LinkedIn. So if you just search Jason Barnaby. I do have a a a company page as well for Firestarters Inc. And I do a podcast around sales called the Sales Spark Podcast.

And it's all around like what's the one I I interview people from around the industry and Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Jason Barnaby: the focus is like what's the what's the what are the lessons that they have to teach us and what's the one thing that that then the listener can do to become better a better salesperson. Bryan Gorman: Awesome. Well, Jason Barnaby, thank you so much.

I l loved our conversation. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thanks again.

Jason Barnaby: My pleasure. Thanks for having me, Brian. I really appreciate it. All right.