Dynamo's Nicholas Carlson on finding content-market fit

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I'm Brian Morrissey. I'm joined by Nick Carlson. Nick's the CEO founder of Dynamo. I had Nick on a year ago at the launch, and I like to do a one-year check-in.

You got a, you got an anniversary coming up. Congrats for making it to the first year, first of all, Nick. Yeah. Secondly, you look energetic.

You still don't have a lot... Do you have any gray hair? I can't even tell on that. I have some gray hair here.

Barely. Barely any. More, more than I had a year ago, for sure. Yeah.

An unlined forehead. W-we're, we'll keep monitoring that [laughs] as this, in our check-ins. But I d- I, I must start, I must start with, with the, the, the end of the end, of the end of the end of, of the scale era. This is something both of us lived through.

I gotta be candid, I'm tired of discussing it. But you, you were, you were at BI from the start, and look, you've been, like, candid about this, and I don't know if there's any- anything much more to add because we, we have learned, I feel like we have learned the lessons of that era. Is there anything we're missing? Yeah.

I, I, the, my... I don't know. I'll tell you what my analysis is, is that, is that there's... First off, let me say, really admire the team running the newsroom with Business Insider.

Jamie's great. I saw her at an event recently. We get lunch. We're very friendly.

I, I think that Business Insider is still an important brand that has real resonance. I think it lands with people, and I think, as I think I've, you've said before, I've heard you say, brands are hard to kill. Yeah. And, and I think what's great- Well, in the digital, in the digital world, they're hard to kill.

Unfortunately, though, some of them are, like, paraded around the town square, the carcasses of digital media brands. Yes. That's for sure. So I think there's still something very valuable- But the SEO, the SEO arbitoire, abattoir is like, has a for sale sign on it, so maybe, maybe the, maybe- You're right.

So-... maybe dignified, dignified death for, not for BI. I'm not wishing death on BI 'cause I do think it has a, has a path. But it's different than, than what you guys were building.

I think so. I, I think that the, the big lesson, I mean, it's, it's t- it's, you know, 20/20 hindsight, but Facebook and Google both held out just enormous piles of cash if you just basically committed to, to serving their audience. And what happened is, is people got distracted, and I'll own this, we did too. Hard to, hard to, hard to not get distracted with the, the possibilities of investing in a newsroom that the revenue that you could get from Facebook and Google Search provided.

You know, it was very exciting. It was, it felt wise to say, "Look, we're getting a lot of programmatic revenue. Let's t- let's take that and hire more people to generate more of that, and then build an investigations unit with the margin that we're seeing." And that investigations unit, just to brag for a second, we did a story about teachers as predators in California high schools, and it blew up.

And then we did another one, and we did another one, and then this year California passed a law to prevent pass the trash. So there's actually a registry of teachers who've been let go from schools for, for doing those kinds of things. And so, you know, I, I love that that's the result of the scale era in a way, Brian. Yeah.

So, uh, yeah. And, and that's the subsidy. You know, news is always a subsidy business 'cause those kind of investigations are not profitable. Let's be real.

And the subsidy was the programmatic, you know, revenue that came from SEO, and Pete Spandi and team was always good at, at, at the programmatic stuff. And then the other thing was building out a subscriptions business and, and we, and we had some real traction on that front. It got challenging. It got challenging.

And it was also hard to do both, right? Like, I always thought- Very hard to do both... that it was hard to do, like, a scale digital media business that was gonna be like an everything store, you know, at, at one point, and then a sort of niche B2B business. And this is one that I feel a lot of people will learn.

Um, any of these, like, breakfast, dinner salons, forums, whatever that we, [chuckles] that we end up having, so many, so many publishers wanna get into B2B. It's kinda weird for me, to be honest with you. Usually people ran away from it.Now they're like, "Oh yeah, energy pricing index.

I wa- [laughs] Like, let's talk about that." Get closer to the transactions, I guess. Get closer to the oxygen, you know? Yeah.

Build- building a, a big subs business requires an enormous amount of capital is the other, I think, big lesson. If you, if you look at the amount that the... Think about how much Netflix spends on building a subscription business. You know, it's, it's an unbelievable amount of, like, loss-making for a time, and then of course they're now profitable but, but they were losing money for a long time.

And then, and so you have to have that, that tolerance to kind of build it out and assume they'll come. And- Yeah... without commenting specifically on Business Insider or Axel Springer or anything like that, you just have to be ready to kind of compete with The New York Times at a, on a, o- on a, on a cost basis which is just a huge ask of any, of any media company these days. Yeah.

And the final thing before we will move off this, the cost basis is really interesting, right? Because, like, BI's advantage was always the cost basis to me against those other newsrooms. Like, and I think what Emma Tucker is doing at, at the Wall Street Journal, she's made it way more, not just way more- Yeah... lively, but way more efficient.

Like, and- Hired a lot of great BI people to do it too, so. Y- yeah. A- and but the other side of that is you, you've gotta, they've got serious consumer marketing machinery within this. Like, The New York Times, like, data, like [laughs] group is, like, massive.

Like, and that, a- and that's, that's why they, they sort of have reached this escape velocity that is, I don't know. Like, I, I, I sometimes wanna do, like, an acquired but for media, but I, I realize that it would just be The New York Times. [laughs] So one episode. It's gonna be super luxury.

Yep. Take that, Ferrari. Sell a season. Sell a season.

[laughs] Yeah. And it's one episode. All right. So where, where is the energy in media right now?

Obviously you've, you've parked yourself, I think, in one of the places that the energy absolutely is, and that's in- Yeah... in YouTube in particular. But also I feel like Dynamo is also, is creator adjacent, and I think creators have a lot of- For sure... energy.

C- the creator economy, you know, just gave a little look as I said that but, but I think that the creator economy is, is a r- is, is like the, the data is unbelievable. It's like that's where the ad spending is growing the fastest in terms of brand for sure. And it's, I think, growing four times faster than everything else according to IAB. I think I saw that and definitely sent it around, of course, to anybody who would listen.

And, and it, it, it is basically replacing television commercials in a big way which now only reach boomers, which are wonderful people but... So it's, it's definitely replacing TV advertising and, and in a way that's what, that's what, what we're getting into. So, so creators are able to tell stories about brands and in a way that it really resonates with people. And so that's, that's a huge piece of it.

And then I do think that YouTube in particular has New Press and Johnny Harris and Iz Harris, who runs the company. Mm-hmm. And then Cleo Abram continues to set the pace for, for journalistic creators on YouTube also. There's something really big happening around that and, and we're excited to, to keep working at being a part of that.

But don't be... But Instagram's a big thing too, so. Okay, so just on, like, journalistic creators, like, is that a real thing, right? Or do you view them as plankton?

Because there's a lot of, I think a lot of people in journalism are kind of annoyed by journalism creators, meaning the people who are personalities first but draft off of the hard work that is often uneconomic to barely economic, right? Yeah. Like d- uncovering new facts is a really difficult and thankless job when you're in the marketplace. You know, 'cause no one- And expensive.

It's expensive. That's what I mean. The market- Yeah... right now the media market to me does not reward original reporting.

And when I say this, I get, like, lots of, like, emails about it, but, like, I'm just saying what I see. I, I don't, you know, there's a lot of money to be made in, like, I'm doing it too. That's why I am. There's a, there's- Well, do you consider, do you consider 60 Minutes to be original reporting even in its heyday?

Not now but back when it was... 'Cause a lot of what 60 Minutes would do is pick up reporting from The New York Times and then do its, do a new version of the story for video, translate it to a new medium. And, and I think you see that from just, just kind of, as you said before, riding on the coattails, and I always think of that or, or I think it's, that's kind of one of the better examples of- I think of how you guys would aggregate, like, some [laughs] of our stories- [laughs]...

and it pissed me off actually, Nick. Back in the old days? That's why I asked you on here. [laughs] Yeah, yeah.

Come on. I have a gri- I have something to say to you I've been meaning to say for, I think it's been 16 years. So anyway. [laughs] Yeah.

No, look, I, we certainly feel like, you know, it's, the reason I bring up 60 Minutes is 'cause I think it's actually use- a useful analog to, like, what Johnny Harris is doing, what Cleo's doing, what we're doing, where for sure there's, there's, you know, if you're gonna do an ep- We just did an episode a couple months ago about hospitals being purchased by private equity firms, and then th- they can't make it work as a business so they just sell the land. And then they dividend out the proceeds from the land sale to themselves, and then the business, the hospitals as businesses now also have this rent burden.

And so what did we do? We went to an abandoned hospital in Massachusetts. We met with one of the he- the head nurse there and a fire chief who used to be an EMT driver. That's a lot of original reporting.

The, the episode did very well for us. Also-You know, based extensively on prior reporting from Bethany McLean, who also is a producer on the episode. But she wrote a story... I, I knew about the story because she wrote a version of that story for Business Insider a few years ago and I thought- Mm-hmm...

this hasn't been done in video yet. Let's do it this way. Let's take it to a new audience. So it's definitely a model where you are augmenting it with your own original reporting, but you're building off of things you've learned in other newsrooms.

But I just think that that's kind of always been pretty commonly done. And so, and, you know, when I look at the work that, again, just Cleo and Johnny, I would say there's, there's no... You know, they... We said original reporting is expensive.

They're spending a lot on how m- on those videos. They're not doing- Yeah... them on the cheap, you know? And so, and so, you know, Business Explains the World, which is the, you know, our primary focus as a company is really, it is a bet on not, not the kind of original reporting that an investigations unit does where it takes nine months before you even begin to craft a story or something like that.

We don't have time for that. We can't afford that. But it is original reporting of a kind and it's a bet on quality and that there's an audience for it and- Yeah. And, and that is, let's get into the bet because, like, we talked about this a year ago and the bet was around, I know there's other platforms, but it was YouTube.

I mean, YouTube is the biggest. It's TV now, right? And then you're also- It's a good show... though gonna bet on like LinkedIn and, and Instagram and whatnot.

Yeah. But also evergreen content because ever, you know, YouTube is a massive search engine. Love LinkedIn. Hope, hope it, hope it continues to evolve toward being a- Mm-hmm...

a very lucrative platform. It is no longer, I would say, the, the second thought that I have. The second thought that I have, and it might become the first thought, is Instagram. Instagram is, it turns out, a fantastic environment for a company like, like us and Business Explains the World and Instagram is growing very quickly, perhaps even faster than our YouTube channel.

And- Okay, so that's actually interesting. I, I wanna do the five things you learned. Now I just came up with it now, Nick. Let's do it.

So one thing it seems like that you learned was that it turns out Instagram is so big and so massive it can even be better for business than LinkedIn, which might co- which might be a bad thing for, for LinkedIn. I'll say that because I have some beefs with LinkedIn. I've heard you go on about LinkedIn. [laughs] I went to their headqua- I went to their New York, not headquarters.

I went to their New York City office to try to get my, like, account, like, out of, out of jail or something. To the Empire State Building. Yeah. I hadn't been in the Empire State Building in so long.

It's so strange to be in there. It's like old school. Like, I'm ready for like- Yeah... a dumb waiter to be, like, in there.

[laughs] But no, tell me about that, about l- that, that lesson. Is it just the fact that- Instagram... they have so much a- a- attention that, that is pointed there? It's c- it's, there's, it's, there's a couple things that make Instagram really attractive.

One is is that I never set out to create a media company that only speaks to men which is what we're basically doing on YouTube I have to say. I, I kinda just didn't know how very dominant the male viewership is in, on YouTube. Wow. So if you want to also speak to women, you know, and I don't mean to essentialize.

This is just the data. You know, we all, you know. So- Yeah, yeah. Okay.

If you open up the, the dashboards on, on [laughs] Instagram it's like, oh, women are interested in the things we're saying just not on that other platform. So that's nice. That's, that's a nice thing about Instagram. The other is is that brands are very comfortable on Instagram.

They, they, you know, and so we obviously need the support of brands to do what we do and so we, we have been able to build out cool partnerships with brands on Instagram 'cause they're excited about that, that place. I'm happy to get into this if you wanna know any about those. And then, and then yeah, I think the technology is, you know, it's not, it, it's the discoverability, the viral nature of it. It's, it's more effective than I think, than I think possibly.

I mean, yes, LinkedIn should aspire to the algorithmic prowess of the Instagram engine anytime. They got a lot to deal with. They've got too much AI. [laughs] They have too much freaking AI content.

Oh, yeah. All the sales, all the sales leaders out there, I love you. Yeah. Yeah.

Your AI is showing. That's all I have to say. [laughs] Here's the new, here's the new AI tell and it, it, it used to be em dashes and it's, and it, there was the other one people say, "It's not just this, it's this." Yeah.

[laughs] Everyone knows that one already. Now it's like if it's giving you line breaks like you're an 11th grader writing a poem then everyone knows you're using AI. I don't know if it's us, like, as, like, writers, you know? But I think- I think- I think I hear it from other people...

people can smell it. I have a, I have a 10-year-old and he says Gen Alpha hates AI. He says, "They hate AI." Oh my God even they're even losing Gen Alpha?

That's a problem. Oh, I think Gen Alpha's the most out, you know? Really? They hate it.

All right. Give me- It's- That's the, the, that was a good first. What, what el- W- give me a second- Oh, that's one-... less, lesson learned...

that's one that needs to at least count for like two or three there. No. The- I gave you the women thing... give, give me...

Well, that's the, that's just, that's the Instagram thing. That's just Instagram. Yeah. What did you learn on- So that was- What did you learn on the, the money side?

On the money side? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that it's gone, I thought, I thought the money side would be, it's ha- uh, don't...

We were just joking before we started. It was like, "How are you doing?" I'm like, "Well, Brian, as you know- [laughs] ... starting a media company is very easy and relaxing all the time.

This is not stressful at all." Yeah. "This is a very easy profession we've chosen." Yeah, I know.

Well, on the money side I say all that to say it's super, super hard, but also easier than I kinda thought. There is a, coming out of, um, where I came from, Business Insider, I was gonna try to do the thing where I didn't say it and pretend that doesn't mean I'm talking about it. Coming out of Business Insider there, it's, it's, I came from an environment where we sell a website. That's what we sell and, oh yeah, we have video and so I kind of-Move that challenge and difficulty into my mental model for what I was about to build.

Like, oh, there's something there which is really hard. And actually, no, it turns out that there's a huge ecosystem of buyers and sellers in, in journalistic YouTube video and creator, and you- we work with a good partner, they're called Smooth Media, and you can plug in and, and be selling to, to all kinds of people. We, we eventually, and Smooth knows this, we'll need to hire our own sales force, and we wanna get- It's a problem with, it's a problem with those models. Federated Media- I know...

Federated Media l- learned that the hard way. That's right. TechCrunch, you know, Mashable, they used Federated until they didn't need to use Federated, but I'm sure- Right... I'm sure Josh and Jenny and crowd will figure that out.

Yeah. No, they're great. And I kind of like, I'll meet creators and they're like, I... You know, I met someone who has a big Instagram account in like the education space, and he's like, someone ca- I think someone was trying to hoodwink him basically and just came up, you know, they wanted, you know, 50% of my business and they did this to sell anything.

I was like, "Calm down." You know, "Don't worry. Talk to Smooth. They'll, they'll help you out."

Yeah. And- So how about that, like, I mean, not, beyond like Smooth, I think the strategic decision to outsource sales. Because I think when starting any business, you gotta- Could be a mistake, Brian. Could be a huge mistake.

Oh, for s- 70- 100%, who knows? Time will tell, and you'll make many of them, I guess. Can I just say, can I just say to this audience of wonderful people, if you think you want to, like, can I do a job board right here? Which is like, I do want to meet people who can help us get into long-term partnerships with financial services companies and kind of just help us really effectively tell the stories of brands- Yeah...

because, you know. So if you're one of those people, reach out. Well, so I think that was, yeah, that, that was sort of what I was getting at was like, you know, you have to like decide where you're gonna have your le- have your leverage, right? And outsourcing sales, on one hand, I guess you can think of it as, wait a second, sales is literally the most important thing.

You know, without sales, nobody eats. Like [laughs] you just don't eat. Yeah. And, a- and so outs- No, Brian, you could just keep raising capital.

Just keep doing it, you know? Yeah, yeah. Keep doing this. There's so much more- But- There's so much of it for media.

But I guess- Yeah... like, you know, you just made the strategic decision that you gotta, you gotta focus on the content and nailing that first and foremost in this kind of business. That's right. So it's sequencing to me, right?

That's right. It's sequencing. What have you, what have you learned on, you know, on the content side and what, and what works o- on YouTube, and then also on other platforms? So I think the, the, the big one I've learned is, like, n- YouTube loves nerding out, you know?

Oh, yeah. You don't need to... Nerding out. You don't need to dumb it down for your audience.

You do need to, like, we, we say we make these things for very smart 12-year-olds because I kind of think all of us have our, our particular domain expertise, and then we are smart 12-year-olds on everything else. But I'm talking like a really precocious, smart 12-year-old who's like curious about the world and, and reads a lot and watch, or maybe watches YouTube obviously a lot. So but, but you can, you can kind of nerd out with people, and the more you do, the more, the more they're into it.

So I just mean, like, don't be afraid of like getting into tri- you know, into the intricacies and things like that. Just I think maybe people think YouTube sometimes and they think like, you know, MrBeast or whatever, and it's like y- obviously there's a, there's a market for like highly intricate stories that involve like figures and, and getting into the, the workings of an industry. So that's a big thing we've learned. Don't be afraid of really getting in there.

And then the other one that works for us is exclusive access to either people or places. It's bringing something, bringing the camera to a place where you, the viewer, can't go or it would just be very hard to go to. And, or meeting a person who, you know, has the information that it would be very difficult to get. So that's kind of an obvious thing that's sort of as a tale as old as is this business.

So those are two pieces there for you. So nerd out, exclusive access, and then the other one [laughs] is, is that editors are the backbone of this. Like video editors, they are the people who can make these things great, mediocre, so they're important. So we're always sourcing them.

There's a lot of, there's a lot of clipping discourse. [laughs] This is apparently a new thing. There's like a real n- well, when you say that, what I have noticed is there's like suddenly like a, like a m- not a, like a panic about clipping. It's like what it all means kind of.

[laughs] Yeah. Well, well, no. I'm like, it can just be clipping. It's just little, just clips.

That's all. It's all- Well, I just kind of think it's been happening for 15 years and, and now we're deciding to circle this and say it's a thing and okay. I, I just- Do you have like an o- do you have like an high octane... Like what did you learn, I guess my, this is my way of getting into what did you learn- Oh...

on the distribution front, right? Well, so we tried the, we, in the beginning, not like we have infinite resources now, but we, we, we did not invest any resources in short form for a while. And so we were like, "Well, we need to be on these platforms at all." And so we did everything from like quick one-off interview segments that we would then turn into clips and then we would, then we did the thing where basically you turn it, chapterize a long video and put it all the chapters on there and none of that worked.

Turns out what works is y- you certainly can pull from an episode. Some of our most popular Instagram reels are from an episode, but they're kind of like remixed more s- in a more sophisticated manner than you might think at first blush. You know, like, oh actually that clip is a little bit from this part of the video and a little bit from that part of the video put together. And it, and it, it's the same skill as blogging, you know, it's the same skill as editing an article.

It's, it's understanding how to take-A bunch and boil it down to, to a little bit that is possibly more compelling than the, than the whole. And so there's a... I guess what I'm trying to say is there's an art form to it, and there's a lot of like, I suppose, you... There are a lot of companies promising, "Oh, if you're a publisher, what we're gonna do is just give us your video and we'll kick back clips to you," and they're awesome.

And I'm very skeptical of those services. I think you need someone like we have, Tony Manfred, who he, I worked with at BI and ran the video team for a while. He's in charge of short form here, and he's just an artist. He understands, like, the moment in the video and how to put that together, and then make separate, independent videos that are net new and are really great, too.

Yeah. It seems like the, the sort of modern clipping is it's, it's a algorithmic growth hack to some degree, right? I mean, that you're flooding- Yep... these algorithms with- Yeah, I guess that's happening...

from all kinds of different, like, accounts and whatnot, and, and I don't know if the platforms will end up disincentivizing that, 'cause I think in, in one, in one way of thinking, I'm like, well, they, they love that. They love to have like, you know- Yeah... millions of things to pick from. Like, they, that's what they- Right...

that's what they do well. Yeah. I guess we could be more aggressive in using those kinds of services and maybe next year I will come back and say, "Well, we were doing this on a human basis" episode by like really curating our clips, and then we decided right now that's not what we're seeing. We're seeing, like, a well-made object.

We both are [laughs] this is a bet on well-made objects, Brian. You know? [laughs] What, what have you learned about the, the well-made objects? Because, like, you've taken a very...

Like, you haven't produced quantity-wise. Like, I mean, you've, you're, you're on the quality side, not the quantity side. Like, I think like- Yes... I'm, I'm going through your YouTube page and this- Yeah...

there's only, like, 20- It's up to 30 episodes or something like that, you know... 30 episodes. You know, that's, that's, that's a different cadence. And, and it might be...

And we might even be publishing too much. We're like, maybe we should actually just be slowing down a little bit and really putting more into each and so it's, it's... We're figuring that out. So what's the question?

My que- the question is why quality over quantity? Well, what- Yeah. Yeah. What have you learned about betting on quality over quantity?

Look, you, you were part of a high octane publishing organization in the sort of text world particularly. I was, but I also was- Not like Huff- Huffington Post, but- No, I, I know exactly what you mean. But I also was the person who took nine months to write a 23,000-word biography of Marissa Mayer, published it, it got a million page views, and my career changed because of it. And so, like I have- That's true...

seen that if you slow down and do a, a really good job and over-serve the reader or the audience, the viewer, then you can end up with an object that they're like, "Oh my God, I can't believe you made this for us. Thank you." Yeah. And you can, and- I remember actually reading that story.

I was in Croatia, weirdly enough, and I remember reading it. I was like, oh my God. I'm like, I would've never... I mean this as a compliment.

[laughs] I was like, I would've never thought BI would do this. [laughs] Yeah. And so- So- And so, and so we had stuff like that across the, across time at BI where I, I was... You know, I had a sign that said, a little sign in my office that said, "Stunts are good."

And stunts can mean all sorts of things to all kinds of different people, but taking a big- a bigger swing at making something really great can often yield outsize returns. And so, and, and, and then I also feel like that's what you see from the, the c- I'm just very transparent about it. We are modeling ourselves after Johnny Harris and Cleo Abram. And they do, they do big special episodes every time out, you know?

And I think that that is, that's a great promise to have to deliver on to your audience. So you're getting, you're getting, like, high view counts that I can see, like, on- Yeah... YouTube, I think. When we first spoke, you talked about keeping the, like, cost per hour, like, in check because- Yeah, I said our unit is an hour of watch time.

I remember that. That was- Yeah... when, dear audience, he, he tells you a little bit about what he's gonna ask before you're live. And, and as I said when you first brought this, that sounds like a guy who hasn't, hasn't really run a company yet or, like, or built a company in a model.

I don't... Like, I could go back and try to give you that, like, what the revenue per hour watched is, and I just don't find it useful right now as an operating metric. And so what I, I... We are very unit economics focused.

I can- Oh, but that's what I was gonna ask. Are you unit economics focused? 'Cause I felt like BI's- Right. Yeah...

DNA was very- Yes... unit economics. Oh, yeah. Yes.

Yes, we are. So it, it just turns out the unit is, you'll never believe this, instead of being an hour of watch time, it's a video. Okay. That's the unit now.

And so- So how much does a video cost on average for you to produce? Did I tell you, like, what we would spend and all that stuff last time we talked? I think so, yeah. Oh my God.

And he, this guy, that guy needed PR coaching. I don't know. So it changes, you know? We're, we're fig- It, it, it depends on who's hosting, who's, who's editing and, and who's all these kinds of things.

Okay. I guess what you could- So, so walk me through- Yeah... how do you decide then on... Like, you don't just say, "Hey, we're gonna spend 10, like $20,000 on this video" or something.

Okay. Okay. Yeah. Here's, here's re- what does the market bear in terms of, like, what can we get from these, from the advertisers we work with?

Great advertisers. Yeah. Lovable ones. Salesforce.

And then you, and then you have you, but you also have platform revenue. Yeah. Yes. Right?

Platform, yeah. It's small and growing. I mean, you know, that's a- Small and growing... long-term payout.

Okay. Yeah, exactly. That's a long-term bet that, that yields a... The library becomes very valuable in five or 10 years.

It's like right now it's- Okay. So it's not, it's not the, the majority. Okay. So- It's nice incremental revenue.

Yeah, it's help- Walk me through the- I'm glad, I'm glad it exists. Yeah... what are the unit economics of, like, uh, a video? So, so you basically understand what a sponsor will pay for a video.

Mm-hmm And, and they, it, it will for the next six months, right? And then we wanna pay, we wanna spend, you know, half that, right? So that our, our gross margins are about 50%. And then we have overhead that kind of eats into that, and try to...

Those are both goals at the moment. [laughs] You know, margin and gross- gross margin are both, you know, ambitions for us. I mean, no, actually I should say gross margin we've, we've... We got over that one.

We did it. We, we, we got, we got past... There was a time where we were spending more than we were obviously bringing in on a per episode basis, but we're venture backed, and the idea is, like, plant a flag and be really high quality and, and, and the, and the clients and the audience will come, and they did. So, so now it's a matter of, okay, this is what we think we can get, so here's how we- So wait, are you, are you producing videos that are profitable now on the r- on a standalone basis?

On a gross margin basis, yeah. Gross margin. Yes. Yes.

But, like, what about, like, when you include all the costs? We think we can get to profitable in the next year and a half. Okay. So that's our goal.

And we have plenty of capital to get there thanks to wonderful investors. But, but that is a different kind of outlook, I think. Might be interesting to talk about, 'cause, like, certainly Jim Bankoff wasn't like, a year in, "We're gonna get profitable in the next year and a half," you know? Or, or probab- or John Peretti or anything like that.

And so it's just a different time, and we are- Yeah... we're going to control our own destiny and, and kind of get to a sizable margins and revenue basis, and then figure it out from there. Okay. So by the end of 2027, profitability.

Did, was that in your- Just I can, I can feel my- Base-... 20, 28-year-old self- Base-... being like- Based on our-... "God, why did you tell him that?"

[laughs] It... But was that, was that in your, you know, based on a true story? We were talking before we got in, it's like everything is narrative, and if you're out- Yeah... you know, when you're, you're starting a company, you're telling a story ahead of- Yeah, listen...

reality. You know this. You know this. The story, you know, the story of running I think any business, but running a media business is like, I send out a investor update every month, and, like, if you look at that, and I, I, I'm very truthful and straightforward with all of them.

You look at that like, "Oh, this is going really well." And then if you're me, inside my head, you're like, "Shit, everything could break apart any second," [laughs] you know? Yeah. And so, and so yes, there's a story you tell, and the story is based on probably more the in- the investor report, which is all true information.

But yeah, I think without any kind of miracles, we can get to profitable by the end of... Let's, let's, let's just g- can I, can I give a little leeway here? Okay. Halfway through '28, something like that.

That's fine. You know? And- Get some extra time. It's good...

I'd like to get there sooner, if you don't mind. Yeah. So your focus n- you're focusing completely on b- or, or is it completely on Business Explains the World. I mean, that was your sort of the, the flagship series, and you know, again- Yeah...

a lot of these businesses is just sequencing. And I'm sure you have, like, you know, big plans that have lots of different series and lots of different areas. Yes. Yeah.

Yes. Our focus right now is Business Explains the World. We- we're kind of targeting a few other audiences. We have some fun ideas.

But Business Explains the World is kind of it's working, and let's lean into it and make it go from, like, pretty good to, to... I mean, it, you know, to great. So we're have- we have, we have a good audience. We have, like, put together...

Watch out, I'm marketing right now. Here we go. Okay. 42% of our audience is in the top 10% of income.

They are avid investors. They are looking to... You know, they're, they're, they are people with money who want to know what to do with it. And so I think it's a great audience, and they're watching our stuff at scale, and so let's, let's nail that.

Let's make sure we can take what looks like it can work and really make sure it works, and so that's, that's the kind of the strategy going forward. And what do you, what do you sell to advertisers? We sell an ad, a host-read integration. So right in the middle of an episode, if I'm hosting it or someone else is hosting it, it could be me, it could be them, kind of interrupts the episode and walks you through a product or a company.

I think the ideal thing we could do, and we haven't started doing this yet, is telling client stories, you know, for, for a big financial services company or perhaps even, like, a tech firm where it's like because of our technology, because of our services, this client has gone from here to here, and it's... We, we've enabled that, and we could do, like, a Business Explains the World 30-second, 60-second documentary in the middle of an episode, and then that could stand alone as a, as an independent short.

That kind of deal requires, and I think if Smood and Josh and Jenny were right here- Yeah. [laughs]... they'd say, "Yeah, w- we can't sell that," but, but, you know, s- that can be sold, and if you listen to this podcast and you're like, "That sounds amazing," please call me. And but, but that, that is what I would like to sell.

In the meantime, we kind of sell sometimes a number of them for the same sponsor, but it's these 30 to 90 second- And-... spots basically. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. I mean, everyone needs to find their side hustle in media, right? Totally. Like, a lot of people's side hustle these days are events, you know?

Yes. Agency services are a side hustle, so. And the, and the other thing by the... And I should say we also are selling these bra- I don't know what to call them because they are sponsored shorts, they are custom shorts, they are branded shorts.

In short form on Instagram, this big audience that we've now developed where we have, like, 100,000 followers across a couple accounts, you don't get the thing... In long form you can interrupt the content with an ad. In short form, that doesn't work. The content needs to be an ad.

And so a lot there is making something really compelling and distributing it through our channels, and then there's another opportunity which we're kind of figuring out, and I have to admit that I'm, like, learning here. Mm-hmm. But, you know, if we have some working... Okay, I'm gonna try some jargon.

You can do this. You can help me. Working media, paid media- This is what happens when you get two journalists. They start to, like, they, they do disclaimers- I know...

when they market or say jargon. I know. Just go with it. Oh, God.

I know. I'm not gonna judge you.That'll sound like a... No.

Turns out our content performs even, it performs well through our distribution channels, but then when we work with marketers to, to target it beyond our distribution, it does numbers in terms of conversions and, and helping people out. So that's something that we're always- Oh, like paid a- like, you know, to... You're basically making ads for them. I mean, which makes- There you go...

you know- That's right... makes sense. Yes. [laughs] That's the s- Yeah...

that's what people want. I mean, 'cause if you're just- Yeah, yeah... selling, like, access to an audience, like, that- You want it, we got it, Brian. That's what I'm trying to say.

You know what I mean? Well, I feel like, you know, look, the story of media is, is technology co- platforms have completely commoditized advertising, right? And so the thing that is left is something, I don't know, it's just more creative, it's more unique, and if you can develop an expertise in telling a particular type of story, well, the market is gonna value that expertise possibly more than the fact that you re- what did you say, 40, 41% are, are, are rich or something? 42% are the 10% top, yes.

Okay. 42% of our audience- I mean, that's good. Yeah. That's good, but there's a lot of people out there who are, who- Yeah...

who have similar, who have similar figures, or at least claiming to have similar figures. And- Yeah... so then it comes down to brand. You haven't been around, like- Authority and trust...

that long. If, brand authority, trust, and storytelling competence, you know? Mm-hmm. And, and I think not just generic storytelling competence, but, like, storytelling for that type of audience.

So if you're used to talking to them all day, talk to them again, put it in a wi- in a wider platform through, through paid media. Yeah. You're not, like, new to the sort of startup crime, but what have you, what have you learned as a first-time founder and running the business? I, I was at Business Insider when it was, like, 10 people.

Yeah. And so true to say when it was called Silicon Alley Insider for the- Absolutely... the, to the old heads. So I mean, I remember I used to like telling people where I worked.

I was like, "I work at Silicon Alley Insider." And they'd just go, "Say again?" [laughs] It's a tough, that's a tough name. It's a tough name.

Yeah. So didn't stick with it very long. Silicon Valley Insider? No.

No. Not Valley, Alley. Anyway, so I followed- Try Silicon Al- try Silicon Alley Reporter. That, that- That was...

Yeah... that was, that was a tough sell, too. [laughs] Right. So and then the ones who did know were like, "Isn't that somebody else's thing?"

And we're like, "Oops." So anyway, so it's, it's crazy. I mean, I don't know what the w- being, running a company and starting a company is... You know, when I, when I was getting advice to, from founders I knew before the company, they were, I was like, "What's your advice on starting a company?"

And they go, "Don't do it." [laughs] You know? And, like, I get it. Now I get it.

I, I am very happy I'm doing it, but it's really gotta be something that you really have to do- Yeah... because it is stressful. [laughs] You know? It's like- Yeah.

But what's, what do you- Yeah... what do, what, what do you think is... Like, what has surprised you about it? Yeah.

Well, there's, there's just, the, the, the plainest observation is just there's no one to say to, "I've thought this through, and it seems to me that we have two options. And let me tell you about the pros and cons of both options, and, and what do you think we should do, boss?" You know? And that is the truth for, like, what kind of hats should we get from Custom Ink for new employees, all the way to how much should we raise if we, you know, da-da-da.

Yeah. So big ones and little ones, it's just a constant amount of decision-making. And eventually you do figure out the obvious, which is I gotta just be, like, 33% sure on the small decisions- Yeah... and just go.

And then on the big ones, be 51 to 60% sure and, and go with those. Yeah. Um, so. 'Cause otherwise you don't, you don't make decisions, and not ma- I always say ma- not making a decision is a decision, it's just a bad one.

[laughs] Exactly. It's the worst possible decision. So, so that's been crazy, but it's, it's a, I, I am a problem solver in life. Like, I th- I like to, I like to play hard video games.

I like to lose at them, because that means that they're so hard that when I win it's, like, a real triumph. And so, so I, I like, I like, I like it. I'm very engaged. I'm kind of like, oh, there's always something to solve, and so that's, that's pretty cool.

But it's, it's, it's just do, doing something that you find inherently, intrinsically rewarding. And so... 'Cause otherwise it's, well, you'd just be like, "Why, why am I doing this?" You know?

Yeah. So what, what do you, like, what is the big bet then, then that you're gonna make and, like, and, and please be specific, in, in year two? Yeah. So- Because again, like, we talked a lot about sequencing, and- Yeah...

you know, the, companies are, you know, you, you always have to be, like, growing and, and, you know, trying new things, but, like, you don't have a, a ton of resources, and so y- you have to sort of concentrate your firepower. So what is your big bet? Kind of, kind of like what is our u- use of capital, where, what are we doing next, what are, how are we growing? Is that kind of what you mean?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So st- step one is we think we have great momentum with Business Explains the World.

I'm not happy with where it is right now. I think it needs to continue to grow and, and be undeniable. Like, every time we publish, it's like people are like, "Oh, my God, I gotta watch that." And, you know, we're about, we're at 180,000 subscribers, and, you know, it's too low.

We need like a million or two million. Come on. And so that is, that's, that's a big bet to kind of say, let's, let's make this great. And so constantly th- I, I don't wanna, like, share all the ways we're thinking about how to make it great, but tweaks and changes are constant.

And so we're thinking through all those. And then beyond that, just gonna, I think the next bet is to sell to OpenAI for $200 million, right? [laughs]No, no, no, no, beyond that. B- b- yeah, beyond that, I do think that there's a opportunity.

I think that [laughs] like I'm, I'm, I'm remembering I'm not just talking to Brian, I'm telling everybody, so. That's, that's my trick. I was like... I know, it's pretty good, Brian.

I think that we'd be a better off company if I'm talking more often to people in the business community. You know, and then also- All right, you gotta sell Yeah. Here we go. Yeah.

Now we're talking. No, no, I realize- You know what?... selling is great. No, no, yes, I do need to sell.

But no, what I mean by- You cannot outsource sales. You can have an outsourced sales- Yeah... like solution and stuff like this, but you will never- Yeah... be able to outsource sales because nobody- Well-...

nobody is able to sell as well as the person who started the thing. It's gonna sound very cynical, but, but, 'cause, but what, what I mean is I think I should do an interview show. I think I should be talking to, to C-level people about the world and having them explain the, the world as they see it. Oh, okay.

And so we're, we're kicking around this, a show around that idea. And I think that, I think, yes, it has, you know, like I'm CEO and editor in chief, so I'm like, "All right. Business, business side, here we go." I do think having those conversations gets us in kind of the water more often with CMOs and, and comms people who might have budget to help fund other things- Yeah...

we do. And so- You should, you should get a yacht in Cannes. That's it. [laughs] That's it.

You call, you call, you call Katherine Weinmann at First Mark and tell her that. You'd need, you need a yacht in Cannes. That's the way- Yeah... you get through to the CMOs.

So it's g- [laughs] yeah. I do know, I do know, like, the CEO president of a media company that did that one year. It was just pure regret. I think they spent 5 million on a yacht.

Mm-hmm. And he was just like, "Ah." I, I played, I played, I played a little- I'll never do that... horse- I played horse against John on that yacht.

I wo- Oh [laughs] John- I, I won... John. Different CEO, different one. Different one.

[laughs] Okay, sure. Well, I don't know what John Steinberg spent on the Daily Mail yacht, but we did pl- we did- Oh... we did play- No... a lot, a, a game of horse that was streamed live, talk about being ahead of, ahead of our time, on Meerkat.

[laughs] I forgot that, I forgot that John was at Daily Mail. That's right. Yeah. Okay.

So it wasn't John. It might've been, it might've been the, it might've been the Daily Mail yacht, but it might've been Rich instead of John. Okay. Yeah.

So sorry, Rich. I blew it. He's, he, I'm sure he listens to this podcast, so hi, Rich. How you doing?

Yeah. All right. So that's a good, that's a good, that's a good bet. And just to circle back, like how are you spending your time?

Are you spending your time more on the business or on the content? And when, when will you know that you sort of hit content market fit? If you know what I mean. [laughs] Yeah.

We knew it pretty quickly. I mean, we, I mean, I, I think we knew we had something when the second episode we did had a million views in a week. The fourth one had a million views in a week, and then we've had f- you know, four total had a million views now. Not that I'm counting.

I certainly am every second. So I think we have that. I think we have to continue to serve our audience in better and better and bigger and bigger ways. And so I am spending even more time, I am more of a journalist today than I was two years ago.

Like, a, a self, like a actually doing the work journalist. [laughs] I mean, like- Yeah... you've had an editor-in-chief job. It is a lot of- News...

great idea. Great idea. And yes, let's give them a raise. Or okay, a performance improvement plan sounds fine.

You know- [laughs]... like that. It's like that's your day and you, you do, you do have these great moments where you're like, "Let's do a daily meeting on this breaking news and we're gonna figure out all the pl..." You know, but a lot of it is like you're like three steps removed.

I am back to reading a book for every story I do, and drafting a script, and reworking it, and, and really understanding, like- Yeah... you know. I'm back, back, back in it. [laughs] And so it's fun.

But, but, but I wonder if that's temporary or if that is the sort of new model. I don't wanna say like play or coach, but I kinda feel like where- 100% the new model... media is going right now- Oh, yeah. Okay...

is you have to be in it. Like, you have to be like- Yep... back in the kitchen. This is a big thing I learned that I didn't...

Yes, sorry. This goes right to the top of the list. This- Okay. I thought when I started this company that I was gonna hire a team and they were gonna make videos, and I was gonna like give them a lot of notes and like push the content and the quality forward, but not at all, not the case.

And I kind of, there's a reason why I've, I've mentioned two people that we follow closely and are trying to emulate. One is Cleo Abram. And keep saying her name. You're not saying...

I mean, I'm sure there's an, you know, there's some company name behind the scenes that she set up to run her op- We don't, we don't even know it, right? And then Johnny Harris and his wife, Iz Harris, Iz is the CEO running the company. Johnny's like an incredible YouTube creator. His passion and curiosity is the driving force of that show.

And so for Business Explains the World, my passion and curiosity has to be the driving force for Business Explains the World, or it's not doing it. And I think that is something I've learned. It's a bigger, it's a challenge that I, I wasn't necessarily expecting, but it's, I'm pretty suited to it, so it's, it's, it's an exciting year to turn. So more of that coming.

Yeah. I do think it's, I think it's the new model. And when you look a- across what kind of, what media has the most energy, right? Yeah.

The people running it are making it. You, you have to. You can't, you, you don't get, you don't get the layers. I mean, and, and thank God.

I mean, who needs all that stuff, you know? And I wonder if there is a lay- like, I just don't, I, obviously creators are gonna be- Yeah... making the media, and they're not gonna like all of a sudden start to ma- and then be like, "No, I'm now..." Like MrBeast is not gonna be like, "Well, I'm CEO of Beast Enterprises and so now I'm not gonna be, you know, making the stuff anymore."

But- That's happening some. So there's a channel called Veritasium that's made this transition really successfully. Yeah. Where I'm, I'm, I'm suddenly blanking on the name of the, the host and creator.

I'm good for that person. I know. Exactly. So-Built it up over many years.

Science education channel really to be admired. It's like, by the way, like, there are big businesses getting built on YouTube all the time, and they just don't get as well covered as, as others. So Electrify bought them. Mm.

And Electrify is this two PE guys started basically a YouTube roll-up company, and they have some great, great YouTube channels. And what they do is they buy Veritasium, and then they invest in it, and now it has a team of 25 people. And, and the audience is... They, they made this really almost, like, apologetic video about the fact that he's no longer gonna be the only face you see, and why he sold out, and all these things.

And that video, I'm sure it, it, it had a lot of viewership, so I'm sure it was important to a lot of people. But the videos featuring other hosts are just cooking. And so I think what I have to think about is I, I know I can't make Business Explains the World as like the auteur for 20 years. You know?

That's just the- so on the very long, long s- side of that. But what I can do is cr- is, like, follow my passions and curiosities and let them show, and build a thing that then is such a robust, like, thing that it's very obvious what to do if you were in my place making the next episode, and the next episode, and the next episode. So- But how do you think about that with growing the business? Leave aside the whole key man risk when, like- Oh, no...

if there's some exit thing. Yeah, I've, I've, I'm embracing a lot more key man risk. [laughs] I mean, good problem to have, et cetera. Exactly, yeah.

I'm like, okay, great. Yeah. Better than being dead. Yes.

I was talking to Henry about this. Henry Blodget is a s- stakeholder and advisor to me, and he's like- Yeah, so-... yeah, you're gonna get a, a, next time you raise, you'll get a physical like I did, so the investors know that you can survive [laughs] long enough to, like, do this. [laughs] Oh, really?

You gotta get a blood test? Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, yeah. No, but like, I, I think, I...

Look, I, I think the question ends up becoming, like, whether that inhibits scaling. Look, on the very micro level- Of course it does... I talk with a lot of successful creators, right? Yeah.

And they get stuck. They get stuck on the first hire. I mean, I've been there. I, I...

Like, and they don't, they're like, there's so much- By the way, you are totally one of these creators. I mean, we talk a lot about creators and this and that. You, sir, are a creator. You've got a- I am...

creator company and- Yeah, like creator, B2B influencer. Yeah. [laughs] I was called MC. Yeah.

[laughs] Someone [laughs] introduced me as an MC. I was like- An MC? Like a master of ceremonies? I'm like, whatever.

I was like, if, if, you know, as long as, you know, the pay is good, that's, it's fine. [laughs] I don't... Like, whatever. Good enough, you know?

Yeah, suitable. That's all I'm looking for. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

But, you know, and I think that is... And, and you know what? Look, the, the, the crazy growth statistics of, of the last era didn't turn out to be incredibly durable. You know, I was gonna say, like, you can, you can be obsessed with scale, but before you can scale, you have to have something valuable to scale.

So you, yeah, you like- Yeah... it's back to sequencing, word of the day. It's like, create a valuable thing and then worry about the rest later. [laughs] Yeah.

Like, that's the plan. [laughs] Yeah. It's, it's sort of like a twist on the old venture capital thing, 'cause I remember during the Web 2 era was always they would, they would always talk about turning on the revenue spigot, and I was like- Mm... this is so ridiculous.

I'm like, I would love a revenue spigot. Every month when my- Yeah, where's that?... memo came around, I would just- Is there one in the office? I just have been missing it, you know?

[laughs] But their whole thing was like, look, you have- Yeah... no business until you scale, so why worry about advertising- Yeah... until you scale? Because it doesn't matter until you scale.

Yeah. So the sequencing- Yeah... is scale, then turn on the revenue spigot. I think it's different now, but you have to find content market fit, and you ha- Totally...

and, and then you, a- and then you can- So a company we're watching-... turn on the revenue spigot... we, a, a company we're watching, a company we're watching is New Press. I've mentioned them 17 times.

I really admire them. I don't know if, you know, that's is Harris and Johnny Harris's company. They have- Okay... they have a company behind the scenes called New Press, and I think they could be a model for how to do this, which is, you know, Johnny's been at it for a long time, and he publishes a video, and it goes to a million- Yeah...

views like that, and then sometimes much, much, much, much more. And so the audience is loyal to him and to what he's built, and advertisers are benefiting from that loyalty, so that when he talks about a product, it's like, it's motivating for people. And so that's very valuable. It is the same, that influence that he has over his audience through loyalty and trust is the same one that allows him to say, "We've just hired a guy named Max Fisher," the longtime Vox writer, "and V- Max is gonna have his own YouTube channel, and I'm gonna share his videos on my platform."

Mm. "I'm gonna co-host one with him, and it's gonna go..." A- and then all of them go, "I'll try that out," and they go try it out. Yeah.

And it's the same tone, and it's the same kinda, like, serious journalistic- Yeah... approach, and it's booming. I mean, it's, they're having a great launch. You know what I call it?

And so that's, that's kind of the approach. I, I, I stole this from John Kelly. Like, instead of, like, building a, a company and, and just having people who, like, work within the brand, it's about, like, having a cinematic universe. Like, you have different, like- Yes...

characters that, like, get together, and, like, by association, like, those characters become more interesting to other people. Like, I think about, you know, I'm a child of the '80s. I'm o- I'm older than you. So, like, Facts of Life was very important in my life, and there was, Tootie would just, like, rollerskate onto the set, and then Tootie ended up getting her own show, you know?

[laughs] Yeah. And then next thing you know, it's a wh- yeah, so. That's our plan. That's our plan.

It's, I mean, we gotta watch New Press and how they do it and learn from all their mistakes and do it better. That's it. [laughs] I'm just kidding, but- But you think, but your plan, and obviously you're venture backed, is to build a traditional companyMeaning that you're going to do... Well, like, I don't know.

Like- Yeah... there's some people, like, I think of, like- Yeah... collective models and kind of things or keeping it super lean and outsourcing- We- we're very... Yeah...

as much as possible and whatnot. Yeah. But, like, how do you- We do a lot of that... think about- Yeah...

look, you saw, like, BI got big. I mean- Yes... we were, like, subleasing from you. There was a lot of buy.

Yeah. I saw a lot of people in the newsroom. Yeah, it got very, very big. So, like, [laughs] you know?

And, like- It was a beautiful dream... so I wonder how do you, how do you think about that as you grow this company about, I don't know, what, what shape it takes? Yeah. We don't ever...

You know, if... Yes, I've built five-year models, and the head count never really gets that crazy. I mean, like, you know, with a lot of success that it, we don't need to be a very big company in terms of people who work here all the time. I mean, eventually a big chunk is salespeople, but we don't need any project or engineering people.

We don't need a lot of, like, layers. And, and what we need are people who are... I, I have heard this player-coach term all the time. We need doers.

We need people who are like- Yeah... "I'm working on an episode today," [laughs] you know? And it goes up, and then there's someone who's making sure it's monetized, and that's kind of it, you know? So...

And by the way, the people who make that episode could have big careers doing work for multiple creators inside and outside of Dynamo. Like, the editors are, are in demand right now, and so we work with a number of them on a contract basis, and they're working with us, and then they're working with seven other people- Yeah... and they're putting a really nice income together for themselves. And so, you know, we, we do have a full-time editor, we have a full-time producer and, and those kinds of things, but we have a, a staff of seven, you know?

And so... Six. And so it's lean and intend to stay lean. I had 700 people at one point at BI and this is sort of an embarrassing to things, thing to say out loud, but it was like, how many people are...

I- I think a lot of editors do this. Their metric is, how many people are in our newsroom, you know? Yeah. And the more in my newsroom- Well, people always ask you that.

Like, I mean- Yeah... I still get the que- It's like, "How many people are you?" [laughs] Like, what is that? This is a strange question.

Or as few as possible, thank you. [laughs] And usually what I'm like, I'm like, "Well, full-time, it's just me." And ev- people go, "Oh, good for you." [laughs] Good for you.

Yeah. So- But, no, I think that is, like, an important point about how you build these businesses is different- Right... in whereas the- Yes... the metric of progress is not li- is not adding more, more people.

Just th- this business is different now. I mean, obviously the economy is changing in lots of different ways. Well, media companies used to be like, it's like, the u- I mean, this, to say a story that you've, we've definitely, you've, you've definitely covered really well, which is, you know, I mean, like, CNN launched a satellite to get the thing to people, right? And now...

And then obviously newspapers had trucks and were sending everything. It's like the distribution was all... A media company could build out and own distribution, like Standard Oil found oil fields and built out [laughs] you know, like- Yeah... distribution of kerosene, and I can tell I'm reading The Prize.

Anyway, so it's like, but we are now just an app on a, on a much bigger platform that we- Yeah... we are just, we're swimming alongside, on a, alongside the shark. You know what I mean? Yeah.

And you see the company. Like, it's like a, a property like Acquired, right? Yeah. Like, that is a great model, you know?

100%. Yes. Everyone would agree with that. Yeah, totally.

They're awesome. Yeah, yeah. They're, they're doing high-quality w- work. Yeah.

They don't outsource. They, they don't, they don't do a lot of stuff. I don't mean that in a bad way, but, like- No... they have a very standard ad package.

They charge a- Yeah... a tremendous amount of money for, for those spots. And they are working their asses off to make a good product. I mean- Yeah...

I, that, they are doing so much work. And it's like you asked me what my life is like a little bit before. Like, it's now that. I'm, like, reviewing cuts and editing scripts and, you know, and writing and hosting and, and doing all those things, so.

All right. Final thing. You've, you've name-checked a few people. I want you to give- Okay...

give some love to others that, that you think have... Like, I keep going back to energy because there's a lot, just to go back to how we started this, you know, there's a lot of obvious doom and gloom around, like, the end of the end of the end of the scale era and all these other, all these properties that, you know, are going into a different life stage. I don't know how else to put it. Yeah.

But guess what? People are g- people still make media. People will continue to make media. Where do you see- By the way, I am, I am, I am more confident than I certainly was a year ago that AI is not replacing what we do, that it's just not doing it.

It'll do things, but not this. Not th- No. I, I, I- I don't think, I don't think ever even. [laughs] People always caveat that, and it's not for a long time.

I don't think ever. Anyway, so. Where do you, like, who, what are some properties you think have, like, that kind of energy to them? And it can be- Ah, okay...

individuals, and it can be- Yeah... I say properties because it can be individuals, and it can be, you know, more traditional brands. People, I mean, uh, the, the YouTubers I've kind of been paying attention to a lot, and these are people that are very established, but Michelle Khare and Mark Rober or... You know, Michelle Khare is like, she goes out and she...

It sounds like a very basic premise. She, like, tries the job, you know? But it's like, if you wanna, like, see what I mean by, like, bet on quality, she goes out and tries, like, a Tom Cruise stunt, you know? Like the one where he's hanging off the side of a plane and does it.

And it's, I think she's killing it, and that is like, is it journalistic? Y- I mean, if journalism is, like, true f- like, factual educational content that teaches you about the world, then yeah, she's doing journalism. I don't think she would ever call herself a journalist, but it's nonfiction entertainment. So Michelle Khare is one of those andAnd then there's Taylor Bell on YouTube.

She's fantastic. She is kind of like a, she's like a one-man band, one-woman band. But she does, like, deep dives on how companies work, and she's also kind of an influencer who, like, takes pictures of outfits and shares where she's traveling, stuff like that, and it's fantastic. So, a- and then Joanna Stern, how about that one?

Oh, yeah. There's one. I don't think she's taking investment, but that's one that I, I would bet on. Yeah.

She's gonna do great. She's got, she's got her new, her new channel, and her new book too. She does. I actually spoke with Scott Havens just recently- Mm-hmm...

and, and mentioned from, from Dow Jones about how they need to keep people in the house because, you know- Yeah... they gotta, they gotta c- I don't know. That's, that is a big, that... Yeah, we'll, we'll do a different episode on that about how legacy media companies try to do talent strategies.

All right, Nick. Yeah, I wonder if they should, I wonder if they should try. I mean, or is it, like, just build franchises and then, you know- Swap, swap people in and out. Yeah.

Yeah, 'cause I mean, how are they ever gonna keep Joanna? Like, I don't think, I don't think they really could. Well, that- that's next time in year three, year two, whatever. I don't know.

I mean, they could cut... They could just- Pay her... look, you're gonna have to do part, like- Well-... business deals.

Like, I mean, like, to me- Yeah... like, the future is, is what I call, like, LLC on LLC acquisition. You know who is, you know who is keeping their talent? And I know you said last question is Bloomberg keeping Joe Weisenthal and, uh- And Tracy Alloway.

They're, they're- And Tracy Alloway. I was about to say Tracy. I just don't know her as well. I know Joe from a long time ago.

But, you know, that is really working out for everybody, and so that's the, that's probably the exception. Yeah. I don't know. The media company that figures it out, you know, Vox has...

I think they've gone pretty far down this, this, this path. Yeah. And it, and it's what, like, led to a lot of the value that was left in that, in that company too. That's for sure.

Yeah, it made it, it makes it tricky, but, you know, they've got Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway, have them over a barrel, so. [laughs] They sure do. Hey, leverage changes. Nick, thanks.

That was great. We'll do it again next year. Thank you, Brian. See you later.