Kim Ayala - A Rebel's Tale of Dismantling the Sales Stigma in CS

Speaker A: Foreign. We are in the studio today again with none other than Kim Ayala. I'm super excited. And Kim, hopefully, um, as good of friends as we've become that I did not completely butcher your last name. Perfect. Um, so a little bit about Kim. I'm so excited for her to be here with us. Um, you know, director of Customer Success Americas and apac, uh, for Aquinio, but then also a very rich background in leadership, driving, revenue, accountability. All the threads kind of in between that. Spoiler alert. Um, a little bit of history here. I actually met her because she did this awesome, uh, presentation at CS Collective in Buffalo, Boston, and it kind of led to us having some offline chats, and I've just learned so much. So, anyway, thanks for coming on the show and joining us today.

Speaker B: It is my pleasure. I'm, uh, thrilled to get together with you again. And, uh, this is going to be fun. So.

Speaker A: Yeah, so tell us. I always like to ask about background, because as leaders, it's. It's such a journey. Right. And where we come from. And, like, tell us about the you and how you got to be. Be this amazing human that shares with others in the community and all these things.

Speaker B: It's so funny you asked that question because I. I had this joke, you know, maybe, you know, before I started my leadership journey. And I would say, I'll never go into management because management's for suckers. That's more work and more responsibility and less money.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: I mean, at the time, I was in account management and, you know, excelling there. And so it just felt like, you know, why would I want to do that? And then, um. So, yeah, so I. I started kind of in a customer success role, but went back and forth with sales my whole career. And then what changed my mind on that was, um, meeting with young, new, hungry people who, you know, wanted advice and saw me as a role model. And, you know, I took them on as their mentor and watching them grow and watching them get promoted and just, like, it just filled my soul in a way that, uh, you know, the paycheck didn't, didn't, uh, feel the same, you know, hole in my heart. And so, um, I was like, you know, I need to do this all the time. And that's honestly what led me down this road for sure.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I mean, honestly, building people up and seeing those little light bulbs pop off and empowering folks to be something, um, it's just such a. Honestly, like, it sounds like a Hallmark car, but, Kim, like, it's such a special Thing.

Speaker B: It is, it is, and I love it. And, you know, one of the things that I've been really lucky throughout my journey is I've always had a sponsor. I've always had mentors. I've always had people who've kind of helped me along and pulled me up and doing that work myself. I was just like, wow, this is. This is it. This is what I'm supposed to be doing, you know, and so. And so, yeah, I haven't looked back. Um, but it definitely, definitely have those moments where, like, am I a sucker? No, I'm just kidding.

Speaker A: Well, it's interesting because I know your team. Like, I could tell just at the conference, like, the uplifting sort of culture that you built inside of those, like, everybody was just so excited, um, and really supportive, you know, And I'm sad about your team.

Speaker B: Blessed with the best people on my team. Like, honestly, I really was kidding. I. I couldn't, um. I couldn't say enough positive things about them. They're all so smart and so talented in their own way. And, you know, variety is the spice of life. When I built the team, I really wanted to make sure that I kind of covered all sorts of different talents and. And, uh, you know, thinkers, and, um, everybody's got their little specialties, and they all kind of rub off on each other, and it's just. It's a cool vibe. It's a great group. Yeah.

Speaker A: No, and architect, if you architect that way, and then you're able to really push and pull the levers, um, and build those people up, even. Or talk about a cool sauce. No, I love that. Um, so I'm curious, you know, we talk, obviously, a lot about positive rebellion on the show. We're in an interesting place in sas. Right. And just in general, in tech, and I'm curious, you know, what is your spirit and where. Where does your soul feel when you hear that word, like, you know, rebel of sass, what does that mean to you? Um, I'd love to learn, you know, a little bit about that. And just because we're rebels. Right, we want to chat about it.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I think, uh, you know, I've kind of earned the right to be a little bit rebellious.

Speaker A: Ooh, I love it. Yes, yes.

Speaker B: Uh, you know, but I think it really, for me, comes from a place of craving innovation, craving creativity. I don't. You know, they're the terrible saying, like, there's many ways to skin a cat, but it's true. Like, I don't want to do it the way everyone else has done it. And I love, you know, blazing my own path and I love trying new things and I, I'm just not afraid. Like, I just go for it. So I think in that way I can definitely be seen as a little bit more rebellious. Ah. But I also think it's refreshing and, you know, um, it's always served me in the end. And so when I think about it, that's kind of where my mind goes.

Speaker A: Yeah, I can dig that for sure. So tell us a little bit about what you do when you're not leading teams. Also an ambassador, right. For collective. I mean, you're all over the place in the community. Like, what's fun for you? Yeah, well, yeah, that, that's fun. We talk about Jaws there and things.

Speaker B: Yeah, that, that is fun for me. You know, I am the type of person that's, you know, on vacation reading my, my, uh, business books and stuff like that. Like, you know, it's hard to, to not be plugged in to all of it because it does, it is interesting to me and I am always on this journey of self improvement. But, um, you know, when I'm not, I'm with my son. He is the light of my, um, wonderful husband. I've got two great dogs. We do a lot of adventuring. We've been all over the world. We road trip, we, you know, tour the rainforest, we been to Stonehenge. I mean, we just do everything together. And um, and yeah, we love to hike, we love to, you know, just, just spend time as a family out in nature or in new places, learning new cultures. Um, it's just so cool that I get to do that with them and have that special time, you know?

Speaker A: You know? Absolutely. And the fact that you're going and you're actually like going to, I hate to say real places, every place is real in its own way, but going and finding and seeking unique experiences like that, like the rainforest. Right. And then as a family doing those things together, um, I'm sure it creates a more kind of rich, exciting way to sort of connect with the real people that live in the areas. The, you know, vibe of the whole ecosystems and stuff. It's like a little bit more Anthony Bourdain style to the travel is what it kind of sounds like, which I obviously very, very much align with.

Speaker B: I love that. Yeah, no, exactly. You hit the nail on the head. I want to, I want my son to not be afraid to try new things and to go new places. And so I'm sure you're kind of in the Same boat there.

Speaker A: You know what? I totally agree. I think the biggest thing that can stand in. Well, I think so, oddly enough, that. Well, these are two. I totally agree in the way that I think that imposter syndrome, especially for female, um, leaders, can be really difficult to overcome, but it can for males, too. And so I think that giving kids what they need in a world that's so hard to do that because I feel so often our kids don't have the. They don't have. Without us doing that infusion, they don't have that purpose. It's. Hey, I want to be on my tablet. Hey, I want to be on this. It's almost like the leftovers of the COVID We did the best we could to navigate all that from an education seat. All these things, but just that togetherness, that humanness. Um, I mean, apropos here, I'm going to say that's one of the things that I love about what we do in success. Um, it's just so. That whole connection piece.

Speaker B: Yes. You know, behind it and. Yeah. Yeah, I think so, too. And I. I have always taken kind of a. Um. I. I just crave authenticity in people. I think that's why I like you so much.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. It's so weird. Like, I just. I. I'm not even. I'm gonna say it. I actually. So she and I have been talking about how hard it is to actually make adult friends, even though in success, I feel like we. We make fast friends somehow. But it's true, though. Like, it's. It's hard. And as an adult, it's really hard.

Speaker B: Yes, it is. Right. Uh, because we're just so busy with everything else and. Yeah. No, but, uh, no. So grateful for our friendship. Glad to have met you and, uh, and hit it off so well. But, yeah, we definitely have a similar approach to a lot of, you know, our own, uh. Our own style. We'll. We'll call it, which I really do appreciate.

Speaker A: Yes, Yes. I would say. Right back at you, lady. Obviously, you talked in Boston a lot about. One of the things that I love was, you know, setting teams up for success with sales skills. I'm going to be real. I think you're one of the. Like, you're doing that, um, from a leadership seat. I see that in some worlds and some leaders that I'm talking to, but I really love the way you're focused on driving human kind of sales, like, strategy into your folks. What does that look and feel like? I mean, we got to show up. Right. Because we Got to show up and be tied to revenue. Revenue. That's how we're, we kind of survive. What does it look like if. Let's talk about, let's talk about. I know what we can do. Let's talk about if we own revenue. If that's we always in you know obviously own a piece of revenue. But let's say we are accountable for um, you know that organic cross sell upsell number not you know above and beyond. CSQL say we have a tart, we have an expectation, we've got a target. Okay. Which we have a target anyway. But in this situation we are full on revenue driver. We've all aligned that way. Like how do you get your team ready for that?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's such a great question. I feel like a lot of times we push on a CS leaders. Um, you know you're going to own revenue now, this is going to be part of your job. Um but then we don't do that next step of actually getting people ready for it and enabled for it. And also we don't teach our leaders how to enable our teams on it. And so um, you know I'll give you a great example. I used to work at a company, I was an account manager, I was working with a csm. The customer says um, I want to do X and now we have a tool that'll do it like that. But the CSM says oh I'm going to give you a 15 step process on how you can do that, you know without spending a dime. And I'm thinking to myself like it's not your money man. Like they want a solution that's going to solve this problem and you are putting it in the perspective of oh I don't wanna sell anything. You know instead of thinking about it as I'm gonna solve this problem for this customer by giving them access to a tool that maybe they don't have today. And so I think the first thing is shifting that mindset. Oh yeah, that sales is a bad thing. That putting a bill in front of a customer is a bad thing. Like you know they want the easiest solution, they want time back in their day, they want things quicker, they wanna make more money, they wan do whatever it is, whatever value it is that you're trying to drive with that customer. If you have a way for them to do it in a way that is going to be better for them by you not giving them that option it's almost like you know you're not doing your job right. Like that's Part of it. And so I, um, think that there's just this, like, fear of putting something in front of a customer that's going to cost money. And you have to get your team past that first. That's like that first step and understanding that it's a part of the job to give your customer options, even if it costs money, and also being able to listen for those opportunities. Like, what is it that the customer's really saying at the end of the day? And do I have something in my pocket that I could offer to them, whether it's a free thing or not? Right? Like, do I have a solution to that problem that I can bring to the table? In making sure that the customer knows all of their options? I mean, that's really what it comes down to. We're the advisor, right? Like, we need to be able to be comfortable having that conversation.

Speaker A: So I love that for several reasons. First of all, the whole mindset thing, I think, is such a huge thing. And so the fact that you start there is, I think, quite, uh, quite a good thing. And it makes me think back when I was in college. So when I was in college, I, uh, actually was able to pay my bills because I sold wedding dresses. People would come and they would hang out and they would say, hey, so I'm having a spring wedding and I want to wear blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, over time, I was able to pay my bills doing it because I could look at a body shape and say, hey, girl, you know, you need to wear a Dior tea dress. And here's why. Like, it was one of those things where, you know, like you said, the customer came, they want advice, they want a quick solution. Um, they want to have somebody who knows what's going on, who can give them some answers. And I do agree. I think people gravitate to where they can get things. Think about all the people paying for, let's just say a cloud subscription or chat GPT. Yeah, same thing, right? I mean, it's. It's a quick. It's. It's one of those things. To your point, it's like people will. If it'll make someone's life easier and then drive the. What the heck does it matter to me anyway? Money or time savings for somebody? Hey, then why not be a consultant? Like we say consultative advisor a lot, I think. I mean, but like, like you're saying, why, why not do that?

Speaker B: Yeah, well, consultative sales is a thing, right? Like, yeah, building solutions for customer. I mean, that's really what it comes down to, and I think that's why, that's why I've gone back and forth with sales and CS so much throughout my life is because I really don't, I see a lot of overlap and I don't think of them as opposites. I really think of even, even my role now. Like, I'm really close with the sales leaders and you know, I love partnering with them because we help each other out, you know, when they have a healthy sale or maybe, maybe they don't. Maybe they've got a customer coming across that's, that's got some signs of risk. Like, I want them to feel comfortable in telling me that. And I also want to be able to give them back, uh, some leads and some good, some good stuff to help them because that's, you know, they're going to keep that in mind when that prospect's coming through with maybe some risk attached.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, you know, you wash my back, I wash yours, um, that sort of things. Uh, so, yeah. And I think the other piece too is changing the mindset within management as well. So one of the things that I've said in past conferences that have kind of taken people off guard is like, I do forecast calls with my team where, you know, I want to know, like, what are you doing to get ahead of sales? And you know, are you creating these opportunities? I mean, we're not in charge of revenue right now, but when we were, you know, you have to be comfortable having those conversations with your team and making sure that they're bringing sales to the next stage. And you have to get comfortable with it. Right. Like if you don't know about it, learn about it, you know, sit in on the forecast calls with your sales team and kind of learn what they're doing and you know, adopt some of that. Um, because it doesn't happen by itself. You know, sales is hard and you have to work at it. And it's, it's a true function. And so it can't be like a secondary thing. It's gotta be a part of the process. But you know, Greg Dane said it and I truly, truly believe this. Expansion is what leads to renewals. Expansion is what leads to long term relationships with your customer because you're gonna hit a ceiling on the amount of value you can give somebody. But if you're constantly expanding and finding new, you know, solutions to problems, then you're always busting through that ceiling with more value. That is such a key thing. And so if you're, if you're wondering like, well, I Gotta focus on retention. How am I gonna focus on expansion? It's gonna feed all of that. Like it's just gonna happen organically. Like you're gonna have better retention as a result of selling your customers more. It just, it's just the truth. And I've seen it time and time again in my own experience that that is how you drive retention, is finding more solutions for your customers problems through expansion.

Speaker A: M. So the forecasting piece of this, and I remember hearing you speak about that, I love that because it does help to operationalize, but it also helps to bring the team together.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: You know, in a way where, hey, look, we're all thinking about this. It's not going to happen if we don't think about it, if we don't strategize. Now, you said a couple things that I loved about the sales relationship with your sales leaders. We've all had great relationships with sales leaders. We've all worked at some of them. Right. I'm curious. I mean, clearly you've navigated that. What are some tips and tricks that you would share just from your toolkit in terms of how to show up in a way, you know, that is collaborative and to earn that trust piece with that sales leader or sales leaders?

Speaker B: Definitely. I mean, it's funny because we also are in that position where I think sales and CS traditionally just butt heads, you know, a little bit because we have some metrics or goals that, you know, are kind of diametrically opposed, like sales just trying to get it across the line. CS has to deal with all the risk that might come across. And you're like, wait, you told the customer what? Um, but, uh, you know, I think it comes from a place of being benevolent and understanding that. You know, something I remind myself over and over and over again all day long is everyone's showing up and doing the very best that they can. Everyone, you know, and so that's. That's a piece of it. And just also understanding, I think for me, like, it helps to have a background in some in sales because I know how hard that job is and the anxiety and the amount of stress and you're constantly chasing a number. I mean, I remember hitting my numbers and not just. Not just hitting them, but crushing them. And the next day, the relay race began again. Right. I just passing the baton to myself over and over and over again. It just never ends. And so when you have that empathy and you understand kind of what they're trying to get at, I think that really helps. And, and I think you Know, giving them stuff to work with, like finding the right opportunities, linking them with customers, helping them multi thread within accounts, all these things. Uh, you know, you're building trust, you're building, um, rapport. And there's this art of reciprocation, right? Like, once you start doing something for someone else, then they're gonna start doing things for you. I mean, that is really where it comes from, is just the humanness of it all and, like, remembering that we're all. We're all just trying to get through the day and trying to meet our. Meet our goals and objectives and, uh, I think that's a big piece of it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And it's interesting because, I mean, to your point, I know a lot of people that have never done that job, Right. If you've never done that job, then it's very easy to think, oh, well, you know, the sales guy, he's walking around with this, with his, you know, his, uh, earbuds, and he's hanging out by the pool with his flip flops and his mojito and swimming with his little pug. And it's like, no, that's not. I mean, it's kind of the stereotype. And it's funny because, you know, a lot of these really great salespeople have, I know you've seen, probably laughed at some of them too, and with them, because they're. They've done a great job at being entrepreneurs and kind of capitalizing on that stereotype. Because it's not the job. The job is so much more than that. Um, and, you know, forecasting is. Is very interesting, especially in customer success and the nuances of it. Like, what kind of product, telemetry data do you actually have and how does that relate and what do you have and what do you need? And, you know, and you know, it's so much more to, you know, than, hey, are our customers talking to us or are they not? You know, and so to be able to talk through that stuff, kind of just do a really, um, kind of game pen sort of setup and talk through it. I know that's gotta be really powerful. What's a. What? I know you've probably learned so much from. From those sessions, like out of the forecasting sessions. What's something that sticks out in your mind that's been like, hey, that was a cool thing. That was an interesting finding.

Speaker B: Hmm. Trying to think back. Um. Um, you know, I think it's just the way that the team supports one another, and, um, you know, it's easy to get stuck in a deal, you know, and ah, sometimes you have to do some brainstorming to work your way through it. And um, I think that's part of it and that's part of why the forecasting call's so important. You know, you're not doing this in a silo. Um, you know, it's funny because I was working at the time with another leader who was doing their forecasting one on one with their CSMs and I'm thinking to myself like, you're missing out on opportunities. Learn from one another and also problem solve with one another and um, hold each other accountable as well. You know. Like um, I mentioned earlier we've got some folks who are really seasoned in sales on my team and then we've got folks who aren't. So um, you know, I want those, that salesy, uh, experience to rub off on some of the folks that are new to it and I want them to kind of understand and get it and I'm not going to be able to deliver that on my own. You know, leaning on your team and ah, kind of delegating out that responsibility as like, you know, you're a role model here, you show them how it's done. Um, you know, whether you tell them that or not, it just happens, like I said, kind of organically when you've got the right. Yeah.

Speaker A: And then they don't. They're not. You know, nobody gets in that really competitive headspace in a negative way either because they all have that shared accountability. You know, maybe, you know, the, the superstar in that particular scenario wins. But there's, you know, very cool kind of communal spirit too that I'm sure is kind of born into this too.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. And I think that's, I think the computer, the competitive shift, I think, you know, when you're in sales, you're right, you're definitely like, you want to be chain.

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely.

Speaker B: Remember that feeling. But I think um, with our team at least and with the CS side and what I've seen. Yeah, it's almost like I want to be the expert because that's what our jobs are.

Speaker A: Yes. No, no. So true. It's true.

Speaker B: I want to be the best. I want to be the one that everyone's coming to. I want to be the one with the best ideas. Like it's a different type of competitive, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and I think it serves us. Mhm.

Speaker A: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, in many ways it sounds as if it's, it serves your team and in general, I think in our Community. It's interesting because as a. It's almost like as a bigger. If we come out of the microcosm and say, hey, this is our. I would say that a lot of CS is about that. It's like, hey, you know, we want to share. You know, this is what we found best practice. That's what I really actually appreciate about this community, is that people are very supportive of one another. You know, truly. It's not just something. It's not just a tagline. I think.

Speaker B: Yes, I do. I think that. I think that too. And, um, I had mentioned on a recent post, like, let's not keep the secret sauce. Like, let's just invite everybody to the table. Because honestly, like, this function is going to be changing the next five to 10 years. We have no idea what's coming. Right? Really? And so if we want to survive as a function, if we want to survive as a CS species in this crazy jungle world, then, you know, we need to be supporting one another. We need to be sharing our best practices. We need to be, uh, you know, remaining innovative and kind of trying new things and experimenting. And, uh, I'm so, so grateful for the CS community. I feel like we do that so well. I don't know if anybody does it better.

Speaker A: Uh, I don't, um. Well, I don't even know how, because, you know, anyway, whenever we get to chat and it seems like the time just flies, but we have come to the end of our chat here, at least for today. So where can we find more of you? Well, you know, I can find you because. Which is actually not supposed to sound that creepy. Rebels. I actually. But I will. I will message her because she, you know, I think she's pretty cool. But how does everybody else find you?

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, well, I think the best place probably LinkedIn. Uh, you can find me there, Kimberly. Um, Ayala. A Y, A L A. No, no second E in that, Kimberly. So, uh, you can find me there. Um, I'm also going to be coming out with a website pretty soon. I'm launching, uh, Kimberly ayalasuccess.com that's coming in the next coming weeks. I need to find a place to put all this great content. And, uh. Yes, yes. So, uh, that's coming soon. And of course, I am an ambassador with the Customer Success Collective. If you haven't checked out their community, that's another really great place that, you know, folks come together and share all these great, uh, insights. Um, and I do a podcast there called, uh, the CS and CX Happy Hour. With my friend Ray. Uh, we haven't had one in a while, but we're, we're coming together soon. So that should be, uh, launching again for 2026. So there's lots. You'll find me. You'll definitely look for me. You're. You're going to find me. Love it.

Speaker A: Well, and I can say, like, the qbr, cpr, I really enjoyed. Like, you got to go back to basics. And if you have not been like, at a conference or, you know, because as leaders, we get busy, right? You know, your mom, your dad, you're living your life besides work. The little time that we have, you're capitalizing on that to make sure that you're doing something fun. Um, but at the same time, like the learning, the self improvement, I think that's one of the things that draws me to you as a human. So if you have business reviews, if you're trying to come around, I will highly recommend that that's the one that I have personally enjoyed the most.

Speaker B: Awesome. Wonderful. Well, thank you for that. Uh, yeah. And I hope to come up with the third installment, uh, soon. On it. Um, but yeah, that was a really fun one. I don't want people to give up on the QBRs. They're too valuable.

Speaker A: Yes, yes. They just need CPR. Well, thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker B: Thank you so much, Dan. I really appreciate, uh, coming on today. This was super fun.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And Rebels, thank you for joining us as always. And until next time, we'll do it big and we'll do it different together. Be well.