From Chaos to Clarity: Christin Marvin on Modern Restaurant Leadership

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: What is happening? Post shifters. Welcome back to another episode of the Posture Podcast. Of course, I'm your host, Sean Soul. Um, I've had to cancel some podcast live streams and I had to jump in some other ones. Um, it's been a little bit of a hectic couple of weeks for me. I can't still divulge why it's been a couple of weeks, but it's just been busy with tying off some consultancy and the big project I've been alluding to the last little while. I'm just clicking some buttons as I always do because I'm a one man show. Um, today I'm really looking forward to this conversation with Kristen, uh, Marvin. Uh, she is the author of Multi Unit Mastery, which we're going to get into like multi unit, um, leadership, which I'm, I'm excited for. Hospital Leaders Road Roadmap, which is an audiobook which I am definitely downloading this afternoon and making sure that I listen to that on my walks. You know, me and my love of audiobooks, I'm not a reader. I just can't concentrate. I can concentrate when I'm on my walk. And she's the post host of the, uh, restaurant Leadership podc. So she's a, um, uh, leadership strategist advisor. She works with owners and uh, operators on how to do leadership. So I think as an owner operator, it is extremely tough to expand on your leadership outside of one venue. When you've got one venue, you can still have your finger in the pie. But what happens when you have two or three pies? Um, and I'm envious of people who have really clicked this in. And one person that comes to mind is, uh, Jack McGarry from Dead Rabbit. Like, Jack McGarry has got multiple venues and multiple cities. He's got multiple different concepts. Now one in New Jersey that he recently opened, he's got Irish Exit in um, the train station. And just listening to him and hanging out with him, um, when I was with Sean Fincher in Annapolis a couple of months ago, this time last year now was um, really eye opening. So it's uh, really cool. And the cool thing is that, and I've said this before, usually you see people on my podcast and we've, we've got a, a relationship in the past. But as podcast gets better, I keep bigger and more popular. I get a lot of recommendations, um, from people to have on the show and, and Kristen's one of those people that I actually haven't got much of a relationship outside of right here right now. So if you love my raw conversations about everything, um, when you have a brand new guest on the. On the show, it's always great. So that's my intro. Welcome, Kristen. Thank you so much for joining me.

Speaker A: So excited to have wonderful conversation with you. I don't know how we don't know each other yet, but because we. It sounds like we speak the same language. So I'm excited that we're. We're starting this journey and building this relationship today.

Speaker B: That's fantastic. Yeah. I'm really curious about, like, the, the books you've written and sort of, uh, the direction of that leadership, because as we're talking in the green room, I do think we have a very strong alignment on how we feel leadership should be in the hospital industry. And as always, I always mention my father, who was ex military. My military backupbringing definitely influenced my leadership style. Um, and it still does to a degree, but I've definitely mellowed and got a little softer in my touch when it comes to this next generation. So let's. I. I love origin stories. I'm a big comic book fan. What's your origin story? Getting into the hospitality industry and then specializing in that leadership realm.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think, um, like, a lot of people are probably listening to the show. I started cooking when I was 15, um, at my family's favorite Mexican restaurant. It. That was my first job. I'd go to school, I'd go play sports, and then I'd go cook for a little bit. And, um, I. When I graduated high school, I moved to Colorado. And, uh, my mom called me and said, because she had just moved there, I found the coolest restaurant. And this was 1999, to give you a little bit of, um, a little bit of a date there. But she said, I found the coolest restaurant. The people are amazing. The food's incredible. You should absolutely come get a job here. And it was Outback Steakhouse, which everybody laughs today. So I learned how to serve and bartend there. And I'll tell you what, from moving from a really small town in the Midwest and being a really shy kid moving into the industry, uh, I just. It opened up a completely different side of me. I become, you know, social, and I loved the team dynamic and, and the competition that existed every single day. And, and the systems were incredible. You know, I was 19 years old going, this training's amazing. They're testing me every day. I've got to know my, um, I learned how to sell things. I. It was just, you know, that the staff was really close to each other and of course there was this party atmosphere. So it was just an eye opening world for me. Um, I did that for a little bit and then, um, I went. I, uh, wandered up the street one day to a five star, five diamond hotel that was having a job fair. And I met the most charming Irishman who had, uh, who was a bar manager for us on our international student program and, um, from Dublin. And he was like, we're opening this cocktail bar. You should absolutely come be a part of this team. And I was like, oh, opening something for the first time. That sounds amazing. So I got a job there. I ended up working in the hotel while I was putting myself through college and graduated from college. And I had no idea what I wanted to do. So I was looking at jobs and I was like, I love what I'm doing. I'm making great money. I don't care that I'm working nights and weekends and holidays. Uh, this is great. I'm having a blast every day. So I went to the food and beverage manager and said, how do I do this for the rest of my life? And he said, well, take our management training course. So I got that binder out of the course and I said, okay, I'm ready to be a GM at 24. And so they said, are we, Are

Speaker B: we all ready to be GMs at 24? Are we just all ready to be GMs at 24?

Speaker A: I'm a little ambitious and sometimes naive, so it's a good combination sometimes, but, um, fearless, you know. And so I, um, they said, why don't you go be an AGM first? Which is a very good idea. Right? So they sent me down to the, to the steakhouse to work with a great gm. I was down there for three months. And then the GM job opened at the bar that I had originally been a server at. And I applied for it, they gave it to me, and I crashed and burned. It was great. I was partying with the staff favoritism on the schedule. I mean, all the shit that you don't want to do, I did it. I had no financial acumen. I had no idea what anyone was talking about in leadership meetings. It was just, I was on a wild ride. So anyway, they were getting ready to open a fine dining concept in a new building, and they had hired a GM that had worked for Danny Meyer. And I was obsessed with Danny. Setting the table was my leadership resource. And they, uh, said, you want to go join this team as an assistant manager? And I, of course, jumped at it. They'd hired some master mixologists out of New York to build this beautiful cocktail program that nobody in the town had ever seen. This is in a smaller town in Colorado. And, um, and I was studying to become a sommelier, so it was just con. It was constant learning and development kind of flowing in. And I got to watch setting the table come to life when we opened that restaurant. And a lot of the team, I are still pretty tight today. Um, and it was just magical. So. So again, here I am, mid-20s, going, this is it. I found it. I want to. I want to do this for the rest of my life. I was traveling the world through food and wine and spirits, and it was really eye opening for me. So I was there for about five years. Ended up moving to Denver and, um, saw a job on Craigslist for a restaurant that was in the heart of downtown. It was going to open in two weeks. Went and interviewed with the leadership team and we opened this beautiful Italian restaurant. It was super high volume. I was able to infuse a lot of that fine dining finesse into the style of service that we curated. And it was like one of the bad. Opened 13 restaurants, but the best opening ever. So joined that team, worked my way up as a managing partner with that group. We opened five different concepts in five years, which was a blast. So fun speakeasy to smoke cows, you know, you name it. And then I decided to, uh, walk away from that partnership when we invested in a restaurant that failed. So that was my first kind of taste of failure at partial owner at 30. And then I jumped on with a, with a restaurant group that had six locations, all the same concept in Denver. Wildly successful, owned by two brothers. And, um, two weeks after I got hired, they said, hey, private equity came in and, uh, we're going to take this thing nationally to a national level. And I went, oh, shit. Why did. What did I just get myself into? I didn't want to go down that road. I stuck it out. I knew that the brand had a lot of legs and was really successful. We grew from six to 48 locations in seven years.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Jesus.

Speaker A: So you talk about scaling. We, uh, I've never seen so much tech coming at us at one time and, and a lot changed, but we also maintained a lot, which was great. Needless to say. I started to burn out in that position as a regional, um, overseeing part of Colorado. And so I jumped on. I really, that was craving being back in the local space and being able to have A little bit more empowerment and autonomy in my voice again and being able to design systems and solve problems. And so I jumped on with an ice cream company in denver that had six locations, uh, locally owned, that wanted to grow to 20. And then the pandemic hit and I had stopped investing in myself and stopped taking care of myself and started drinking pretty heavily to uncover my hap, to cover up my unhappiness. And when I stopped and realized I needed to start working with a coach and get back to my purpose, find my purpose again in the business, that's when I realized the one on one work I'd always done with people and opportunities and development and growth was my favorite part of the industry. And that's when I decided to launch my coaching company.

Speaker B: That's awesome. That's a, that's a, that's a whirlwind. I know it's probably over what, 15 years, but that's a hell of a whirlwind, like experience to, uh, be able to pull off. I always say, like, it's interesting jumping between independents and corporates. Like, I talk to a lot of independent owners and they're like, well, we don't love like hard, hard systems, black and white systems, because that feels too corporate.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I'm like, yeah, there's a reason why these corporate, like I, when I came to Canada, because in Australia we don't really have franchise restaurants per se. Like, it's not something that like 20 years ago in literature wasn't something we had the way that we have like a Cactus Club, a Moxies and Milestones, a Keg and Earls like we do here in North America. And so I started working at Moxies and I just got open to these systems and I'm like, this is incredible. Like I've never had everything black and white laid out exactly how it should be done, from the host to the buster to everything. Um, and I always find the independence are always like pushing against that. They're just like, well, no, they'll know how to do it. So at the single unit level, what separates a strong operator from someone just surviving as a leader? Shift to shift.

Speaker A: It's really as simple as, can you take a day or two off a week and fully disconnect and not get the text messages all the time? And is your team empowered enough to make great decisions so that you can actually walk away and have some sort of balance in your life with, with one restaurant? That's, it's as simple as that.

Speaker B: And do you think, uh, though that's one of the leadership habits you need to sort of have? Because as I said in the green room, it's one of my hardest things to get through is like detaching myself. And the funny thing is, when I'm consulting for a client, I can detach myself, no problems at all. When I'm in the business, it's like, oh, no, I need to do everything. But with a client, I'm like, oh, no, no. I can tell your managers to do this and your bartenders do that and they'll do their thing and I don't have to worry about it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, do you think that's one of the early, like, leadership habits you need to get up, get on board? Is there any others that you kind of feel like you need to, like non negotiables as a leader in a single unit to make sure that you have long term sustainable leadership?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think that for. And to go back to what you just said, Sean, I want to dive in. I would like to dive into that with you later. Uh, like, you, let's you and I schedule some time because I would like to coach you on that moment that you're having. Because I, I want to understand what the difference is with your mindset in terms of how you're like, think about your clients and how you're thinking about your business. Because we, if we can unlock that. Um, when you are a single op, um, single unit operator, it's really important to sit down and design what your vision is for the business and what your vision is for the role. Because you've got to have a target to move to and some sort of North Star to measure yourself, measure your actions and your behaviors against. So when you are a single operator and you start to feel pulled in, well, gosh, we just had a really bad Sunday shift. Maybe I should start being there on Sundays now instead of taking time to coach and dig and figure out what the root cause of that problem was and use that as a moment to teach and coach the team and get better and empower them to make better decisions next time. Um, instead of doing that and just jumping back in, when you have, when you have a vision, you can take a second and stop and go, wait a minute, is me jumping into the business on Sundays again, helping me get closer to the goal and the vision I just set for myself, or is it pulling me farther away? So that's, that's a really, really crucial thing that I think a lot of owners start their businesses without and because they just Think about the business, all the. All the aspects of the business, but they need to think about themselves and what life they want, what kind of lifestyle, what kind of life they want to live. And from there, once you have clarity around that, then you can start to develop the really powerful skill of boundaries. Right.

Speaker B: No one exists.

Speaker A: Your face does it all. Your face does it all Right. It's. They're so difficult to. To talk about. I think a lot of people think that they're out of reach or they just feel overwhelmed with how do I even start to set a boundary? Or how can I set a boundary and still support my team?

Speaker B: So that I think a lot of times you feel. You feel dirt, you feel dirty about having boundary. I'm there for my team all the time, 24 7, so on and so forth. A good friend of mine always says, don't buy yourself a job. If you're gonna, like, get into the restaurant business, owner, don't buy yourself a job.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: When I coach a lot of owners as their exit strategies, and I'm like, you haven't paid yourself a salary for five years. Your business is not healthy.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like, as a leader, it's not a business. Your business is not healthy. If you leave, your business fails. And so it's not worth anything to sell.

Speaker A: Yeah. You know, it's funny too, because I was doing a leadership workshop last week with a group. They've got four locations. They're getting ready to expand rapidly. And the owner was at the leadership workshop, and we were getting really vulnerable, and we were talking about the type we were. We were designing their leadership style. And I asked the owner what was getting in their way of being more successful and happier. And he said, I can't walk away from the business on a regular basis because I feel guilty, and I feel like I need to be there all the time because I need to be fully present and in front of my team to feel like I'm making an impact. And I stopped him, and I looked at the entire room and I said, who in here would like to see this owner take more time off? And they all raised their hand. So the teams, Our teams see when we're there all the time, but they don't necessarily want that for us. Right. If we are going to grow and everybody starts with a single unit. Right. If you have aspirations to grow your restaurant or to have any sort of life outside of your restaurant and not be chained to it, like you said, you've got to figure out how to start trusting your people to be, uh, to, to take care of the business when you're not there. They may not do it exactly the way that you want or at the level. You know, I hear a lot of owners saying, gosh, they just don't. They just don't. They're not in it. Like, I'm in it. And they don't think like owners. They never will, Bill, but they want to see you happy and living a great life. Right. It's our job as leaders to make leadership look fun and look right. And it's. But that's so. I know that's easy to say. It's really, really hard to do.

Speaker B: Oh, no, I agree. But I think, uh, I'm sure you do it in your, in your leadership. Uh, one on ones is that I think vulnerability and transparency with ownership and leadership in particular should be much more prevalent in the industry. I still think that we're a lot of people are our age, so it's like that sort of like old school OG hospitality mentality is like, you don't show your feelings when you hit the floor, your face is smiling and all that sort of stuff, even if your lawyer just ripped you a new one because you didn't sign something or anything like that. So I think, like, I always sort of push for that vulnerability and transparency with leadership. Um, do you find that that's always hard, a hard hurdle to get a lot of that older generation, that Gen X millennials sort of being much more vulnerable and transparent with their team because they feel like they need to be the pillar of strength for their whole team?

Speaker A: You know what, it's really interesting because I came up in that too, especially at a, starting out of, at a five, five star, five diamond, um, resort. Uh, you were, yeah, you left it at the door. No matter what was going on. You came in, you were in your uniform, you were crisp, you showed up, you were always happy, you made eye contact within 10ft, you spoke to guests within five feet. I mean, it was just, you know, you never said no, you were always saying yes. And so I very much came up in that. And it was difficult for me, um, in my leadership to be vulnerable. And I'll tell you what, I didn't, I didn't actually tap into it until I got out of the industry and started coaching, because then I understood how powerful it was during sessions and I said, well, if I'm going to challenge my clients to do this, I've got to lead by example too, in my, in the way that I'm living my life and showing up in the world. And, and that switch has brought so many more people closer to me, has really strengthened relationships. And I'll tell you when I do, uh, you know, we do, yes, we do one on one coaching. We do group coaching with restaurant owners, which is really powerful. And, and in these leadership workshops as well, when you create that space for people and you, I call it designing the alliance, set the stage for. This is a, this is a safe space. This is what we want. There's, let's hold confidentiality in here today. Let's show up and really start talking about what's going wrong in the business and what you're struggling with so that we can actually open doors to move forward and have progress start to happen. I have been shocked over the last three years of how open people are. I mean we, it is not rare that we are crying in workshops because somebody has celebrated something that they didn't take time to celebrate and they're so proud of themselves or that somebody's burned out and they haven't said the words before and they feel comfortable enough to say that in front of their team and to watch people rally around them when that happens is, is powerful. So there's a, there's a really powerful shift happening in the business because it is harder to run restaurants as we know than it ever has been before. But more and more people are open to raising their hand, going, I need help and I don't know where to get it from.

Speaker B: Do you think that's come out of the pandemic a lot? I feel like the pandemic did a lot of good and bad things for our, uh, industry. Obviously during the pandemic was horrible. But I do feel for the older generations it's definitely opened up. Like you need to be more open with your team. And I think the younger generation, I'm envious of the new kids coming into the industry because they know what they want. Like I want to work four days a week. Like I have a 15 year old daughter. So I get very much that sort of new, new mentality not towards us as parents. But like her friends, she's like, uh, I don't want drama. I'm just not going to talk to you for a couple of weeks. Uh, I'm just going to cut you out of that for a bit. We're not going to talk on Snapchat. Um, and I feel this next generation of the ones, they're like, I only want to work four days a week, I'll work nine hour shifts, but I want three days off. A week. I want the money that I want because these kids have options. And I feel like that's staff coming up and us coming down has really created this sort of like nice environment in the middle that still needs to be cracked a little bit. But I feel like it's getting better.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with you. But we know post pandemic 6 million people left the industry and a lot of those, uh, had the institutional knowledge. And so the people that are coming in now have less experience and it's putting so much pressure on leadership and training and every single system that you have or you don't have in your business. But yes, this next generation is coming in and they are pros when it comes to setting boundaries. Right. And I learned that from anyway.

Speaker B: Yeah, I wish I could do it.

Speaker A: You can. It's all just, it's all up there. But um, there's a couple different camps of operators. You know, there are a lot of people that I talk to that have been doing this for 30, 40 years and they're like, why is this so hard at this stage of my business? Which I get. But they, they will say, you know, people just don't want to work these days. And, and then there's the other ones. I, uh, know it makes my blood boil. And then the, the other ones that are embracing saying, oh my gosh, of course, like you know exactly what you want. And this gives me the information I need to be able to know how to staff my business properly. People have forgotten that a lot of people, especially in the front of the house, get into the, got into the restaurant industry because the money was great and the hours are really flexible. You could take as much vacation time off as you want. You could say, yes, as many acting gigs as you wanted to. Right. And I think the ones that are so frustrated and they can't see that people want different quality of life now and they're not willing to change. Absolutely.

Speaker B: Ah, we should be leaving the industry better than what we got into it.

Speaker A: 100.

Speaker B: I shouldn't be asking a 19, uh, year old chef to work an 18 hour day. Like, yeah, we did that 20 years ago and it should be better now. And it, it is, it is tougher for a lot of operators. And I completely understand. Like I work with one's, um, one of my clients is, he's been in the industry for 50 years. He opened his first restaurant at 23. He's 73 this year and he's still working 40 hours a week. He loves it. And it's going to be horrible when he retires because he's not going to know what to do with himself.

Speaker A: But.

Speaker B: But he really has empowered his whole team to like really run the place as if they are owners. And it runs miraculously with no systems, which is shocking to me. Um, because there's nothing on paper, it's just like hearsay. It and what you do and I do agree with you, post pandemic, that sort of like late 20s to mid-30s section of the industry sort of left and there was the old, like older generation like us, and then the super young. So we're doing like 40 plus and then 20 something.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And there's a big gap in the middle and that's the ones that aren't being able to train staff down.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker B: So when you're in the leadership things, how do you pull on the thread? Because obviously you're going to have some leaders and ownership that's going to be very open with what they want and need and their mental health, and there's some that are going to need. Going to be a little bit more stopped. How do you pull on that thread and like, pull them out of their shell to like, really allow them to open up on a leadership level?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think first and foremost, we very much operate from an addition mindset. When we're talking to someone, you know, we want to understand if they care about their people, they want to develop their people, and if they're ready to start talking about their problems and what they're really struggling with, um, if they're not willing to do that work first, they're not ready for us. And that's okay. They might be in a year or two years or five years down the road, but they have to be able to get comfortable being uncomfortable. Because when we coach and we take them through our framework, we are asking really tough questions and we are challenging their verbiage that they're using with their teams, and we are challenging their mindset. And that takes a long time to unravel. So it's really about creating space for people on a consistent basis where we can dive deeper. That's what coaching is, helping people get a deeper level of knowledge and understanding around their, uh, leadership style and how they're running their business. So once we set that stage and create that space for them to just go deeper and deeper and deeper, they start to understand what's actually happening. Because we move a million miles an hour in this business and there's even, yes, we may set operations meetings, but to actually have an owner sit and deeply strategize about. Let me look back at the last 90 days of my business and see what, and celebrate what went really, really well and talk about what the challenges are, then we can unlock what we need to do next in order for the business to grow.

Speaker B: So now we've taken that jump over to being a, uh, multi unit. What's that? What's the change in identity when you go from being a single unit operator to a multi unit operator?

Speaker A: It's. I'm not a parent, but I'm sure it's got to be similar to when you have that second kid. It's this internal struggle for a lot of operators of. I've built this wonderful thing and I love my team so much at location one, but I feel a little guilty that I'm going to spend time at location 2. How do I separate my time, support both teams and feel like every time I'm in the restaurant I'm making an impact? Because when you're in one location, you can run food.

Speaker B: Technical diffuse. Sorry about that, team. I, uh, had a little bit of a technical difficulty. I had to reset my modem really quickly and uh, I'm glad that we're back. Apologize about that in advance. Um, I'm just going to go back to here. Here we go. Um, as I was saying, what's the change in your identity as a leader? Because as we talked about this in the green room, um, I'm working on a big project and I'm basically going to a multi unit operator straight away from not even having a single unit operator operation. Uh, what's that change in identity when you move from a single unit operator to a multi unit operator?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's really, it really comes down to the question a lot of operators ask themselves and struggle with is which is what's my role now? M. You know what? I'm so used to working with my hands. I'm so used to being there in the trenches with the team. I love it. I get that rush. I know that when they need help, I'm there immediately. And now there's more admin, there's more computer time. Right. So it's a huge shift from being physically on the job to having to be the conductor behind the scenes, measuring success in a completely different way and not being able to be as much of a part of that energy that you get from the shift every single night. And that where do you get, where

Speaker B: do you gain that dopamine?

Speaker A: Hit 100%. And so it, it's, it's really, it's very lonely. Um, and it can be really, really confusing again, which is why it's so important to really clearly define your role before you open number two and figure out your time. Because you can't just completely remove yourself. Then, then you're just, you're like, what's my purpose? This, this isn't fun anymore. You know, you can't, you can't just fully remove yourself from that because it's, it's at the heart and soul of what we do.

Speaker B: Well, yeah, because we're hospitality people, so we're passionate. We, we want to be there for people, whether it be our staff or our guests. And then all of a sudden you, as you get bigger, you, uh, start divvying up the admin stuff to a bookkeeper or someone who's doing your admin stuff. And all of a sudden you really look at yourself and go, what? What am I doing?

Speaker A: Well, and there's all. Yeah, I mean, there's also a lot of fomo, right. Like, as a restaurant owner sitting there that's reading a guest review about how extraordinary the experience is, it's like, oh, uh, I missed it.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: You can't, you don't get that same, like I said, that same dopamine when it's behind the screen.

Speaker B: Yeah. I haven't bartended for about four years now, and people are like, oh, do you miss? I'm like, I don't miss bartending. I miss, I miss bartending. I miss that the two or three hours after everything's set up, before anything needs to be pulled down, that beautiful moment, I'm just making cocktails and touching tables, kissing babies. I do not miss prep. I don't miss setup. I don't miss cleaning. I don't miss any of those things whatsoever. I miss those sweet three hours of just like when you're in the weeds and it's beautiful.

Speaker A: Yeah, 100%.

Speaker B: So when you start, like, as you said, you open, what, to 48 venues in seven years or something or. Yeah, something. Something crazy like that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: When you really get into that sort of high level, you've gone from being a one single unit operator to being a multi unit CEO. How do you do that? And how do you sort of bridge that necessity of purpose for people as they grow, especially when they get that big? Because a lot of times, like you said, we want to be in the thick of things. We want to be in the mud with our staff, like pushing through the trenches. How do you get it when you get up, it's like C suite level.

Speaker A: Yeah. So when you talk about purpose and expansion in business, you have to make sure that you are hiring people and building a team of people that have shared purpose. And you do that through identifying core values for your business. Three to five is all you need. And then you make sure that you are using those core values in your hiring process, in your one on ones, in your performance review so that they're always top of mind for the organization. But when you're interviewing people, you have something to measure that against. So you have the core values, but then you're also defining um, what the behaviors are behind those core values and how they show up. Because I was having a conversation with a client last week, they're getting ready to look for new general manager and I said let's, let's really be thoughtful about this and let's look back at what's not been working with the former GMs and let's talk about what we want moving forward here for the next three to five years. And I said, do you have core values? And she said, yes, but the owner and I, the two owners of the business, she said, but the owner, I. And I look at the word integrity and it has two different meanings to us. So uh, you know, and so I was like, okay, well we got to get clear on that first, first before we can move forward. Right. So you got to have alignment on what type of people are going to fit the type of company that you want to run. Because restaurants are, every single one of them are so unique, which is so exciting and amazing and part of the reason it's so hard. Right? Um, and then once you identify what you're looking for, especially in multi unit, there's a really important shift that happens when you go from one to two of understanding what leadership team the business actually needs and making sure that your financial model can support that. Whether it's fractional coaching, fractional, um, hr, fractional CFO or uh, that. So identifying that core leadership team versus what a lot of people do when they have one restaurant where they move into two, which is just promoting based off loyalty.

Speaker B: I was watching a video where you were mentioning that and it was, it was eye opening because that's, I think a bit of a con when it comes to our hospitality industry because we, oh, you've been here two years. The bar manager just left. You're the new bar manager. And we rarely go, hey, would you like to be the new bar manager? It's usually just oh no, the bar manager left. You're the new bar manager. You've been here two years. You can do it anyway.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And we sort of promote just because people have been hanging around, uh, they want. Not they want to, or whether or not they have the skill base to

Speaker A: do it 100% well. And you mentioned this on one of your episodes. I was listening to the importance of job descriptions. Right. So bar manager is a great example. Your bar manager leaves, take a second with your team and go, wait a minute, do we have a job description for this? If we don't, let's create one with AI using our website and our core values. So easy. Let's review it together. Because, you know, AI garbage in, garbage out. Let's review it together, make sure it fits our language and our, um, organization. And then get yourself a plan together and go, okay, we have one candidate internally that might fit 60 or 70% of these qualifications. What do we need to get them there if they want it? And then do we have the infrastructure in place in order to do that or do we need to go look externally? Uh, I think it just, that could be a 30 minute conversation that could really solve that turnover issue.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think I've, uh, been talking a lot about this about like, there's always training journeys from like, if you're a hostess buser up to being like a bar bartender, server, that sort of thing, or in the kitchen. But once you get into management, there's very rarely learning journeys. After you get into management, it's like, oh, you're a manager now and you're training and your nurturing sort of just stops. It just, you just exist now. And then that, ah, progresses into ownership where you just sort of exist.

Speaker A: 100. It's a lot of the reason why I burnt out in the industry. You know, I had been very passionate about, like I talked about earlier, finding ways that I could learn and grow myself. Whether it was the book setting the table, whether somebody said, hey, we're offering a sommelier certification. I was like, uh, yeah, please sign me up for that. Uh, delicious and exciting. Um, and then, you know, hey, there's a, you know, mixology master mixologist coming in. And by the way, there's this cool bar smarts program. I was like, of course I want to learn all of those things, right? So, um, and you can compete and all these fun things. So in my, you know, mid-20s, it was, it was all there. And then as I started to work for a larger organization, I made the mistake of stopping to look for those resources and putting that onus on them that I thought well, you guys know where we're going. You all have so much more experience in this area than I do. It's your job to develop me. And when I started doing that I realized that the leader that I had directly above me wasn't necessarily interested in doing that. And that person was human. I put them on a pedestal and then I set really high expectations for them and I was very disappointed. So there's, and there's so many resources out there. I mean your show is a great example of that. There's, there's art, there's social media posts, there's newsletters, there's podcasts. I mean you can get content in your ear and in front of your face whenever you want it now. And so it's uh, I love where we're at. Um, and there, it's no, um, it's no coincidence that all of these resources are available now because the industry is screaming for it. But when I started my business I, I said to myself I don't want anybody else to burn out like I did and I want to make sure that people understand where they can find these resources.

Speaker B: 150 for you on a personal level and I suppose professional as well. Where do you see modern hospitality leadership going in the next five years? What are the three things that you sort of see and go okay, well this is a non negotiable going forward that every organization should be doing.

Speaker A: You were seeing a lot of people coming into the industry just based off of how they were grow, how they grew up. Right. It's very tech forward. They've got, they're so much smarter than we were and they're a lot healthier than we were. We were a generation of drinkers my friend, and party animals. So um, they're a lot healthier. So I think that what we are seeing is again people coming in with more boundaries, people coming in healthier, more clear headed. They want to go into work and have intention and want to make an impact and they care about mental health. Um, and I think they're going to demand these things from employers or they're going to start asking a lot of questions about where these resources are and owners are going to have to start saying okay, I should start looking at this, what resources are out there or empowering them and saying would you go do some research and let's bring this into the organization. Yeah, I think it's gonna be a lot healthier than what we've seen in

Speaker B: the past, which again, I am jealous and envious of the fact that they have these beautiful boundaries and like, know exactly what they want because again, we were a generation of partiers and something. But again, I think that's strange as well. Like, you go into your favorite bar post shift and you're like, I'm had a really bad night. Here's a shot of Fernet. And you're just like, probably not what I need right now, but I'm gonna take it because I don't want to be rude. Um, but yeah, I think the changes and the shifts in the industry have been healthy and I've been harping on it quite a lot. And I think I remember when I first started talking about my mental health and I got messages from some of the people in my sort of age bracket. They're like, you shouldn't be talking about this. You shouldn't be openly talking about this. And I'm like, I don't. I've lost friends now. And I'm sure if you're in the industry long enough, you've lost friends. And I'm like, I would prefer to have an awkward conversation at 2:00am and uh, then get a shitty phone call at 6:00am yeah, that you've, that you're gone. So I'm always up for the awkward conversations.

Speaker A: Yeah. I love it. Good for you. I love, love you leaning into that. It's amazing.

Speaker B: So with your books and everything like that, what's your plan for the rest of 2026? What's uh, what are you sort of gearing up to sort of like implement?

Speaker A: Yeah, well, um, we. So I've had my former company for three years and I realized I was the bottleneck, um, and I could not step away from my business. And so had that, you know, beautiful, powerful moment of insight and realized I needed help, I needed a, ah, partner that I advice. Taking my own advice. Yeah. Like if we're going to, we're going to ask clients to do this, we better be leading by example. Right. So, um, we formed Columbine Hospitality in January of this year and brought on a tremendous partner that I have opened a ton of restaurants with, worked with with over 10, you know, for over 10 years. Um, he takes everything I do and 10x is the quality of it, which is incredible because I move a million miles an hour. I'm the hyper. He's very much the integrator. And so we are a killer team. And, um, and we are hiring a team of coaches to take the, the framework that exists in multi Unit Mastery and, uh, roll it out to our clients internationally. So, um, for us, we are scaling. We've, we've hired our first clients or our first coach already. Excuse me. And, uh, we will be looking to hire our second coach within the next month or two, so.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's, it's incredible.

Speaker B: So for everybody who's listening, before we get into the deep podcast questions, which I do in every episode, um, hospitality leaders, roadmap, and the Multi Unit mastery, I'm, um, going to put those links in the bio when you listen to this up in my link and bio so you can go straight to Amazon and pick them up. Um, I'm going to be downloading the audiobook for sure because I, when I do things like listen to yourself and, and people like you and read more books, people like, don't you already know everything? I'm like, if I learn 2% more from something that I'm doing, that's 2% better than I was yesterday.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And for me, it's like, as I said, Sean, uh, Fint is a very good friend of mine. Went to Annapolis, did his course, his mastermind, and like, although it gave me a few new things, it more reassured me that I was on the right track and I was doing the right things. Yeah, it was more of a reassurance than like, oh, this is a eye opening, brand new thing. It was more of a reassurance that I'm not completely shit in the bed 100%.

Speaker A: I can listen to the same podcast episode five times and get a different moment of insight each time I listen based on where I'm at and, and what, what space I'm creating. And I do want to mention too. Um, I'll send you the link if we didn't talk about this yet, but anybody that's listening to this will give them a free copy of Multi Unit Mastery. So I'll send you the link for that.

Speaker B: Oh, awesome. That's fantastic. Because, yeah, I know, I know a couple of people. I just had drinks, uh, with someone, a friend of mine, and he's looking at going multi unit. Like, multi unit, like 1012 units over the next two years.

Speaker A: Awesome.

Speaker B: And, uh, I'm just like, okay, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm with you on that one. So. But, um, at the end of every episode, I always do 10, 5 deep podcast questions for every guest. Uh, they're a lot of fun. Um, they'll either catch you off guard or they'll make you really think, um, what is one lesson or experience that has shaped your perspective the most and how do you carry that forward in your life, personal or professional?

Speaker A: The importance of having a morning routine and making sure that you are filling your cup up and taking care of yourself first and foremost so that you can give the energy and the attention and the detail and, and the presence that you want to everybody else in your life.

Speaker B: If you could leave one lasting message or piece of wisdom for the world, what would it be and why?

Speaker A: Stop judging each other and, uh, just be open minded to everyone's perspective. If we could all be better listeners, we think about where the world would be right now. It'd be pretty incredible.

Speaker B: Looking back on your journey, what is something you wish you had understood earlier in your life?

Speaker A: That leadership development is a 50, 50 way street, 2 way street between me, me taking ownership and the company delivering those resources as well.

Speaker B: How do you define success? And as your definition, uh, of it changed over time.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yes. I redesigned my lifestyle before I started my business so that I again could have that North Star of checking myself when, when I got stressed or I was in the weeds, I could look at that piece of paper and go, am I moving in the right direction here or did I just take a step back? Um, that has been one of the most powerful lessons I've taught myself at 41 at the time. Um, so could not recommend that enough.

Speaker B: What do you have your legacy will be and what steps you taking to build?

Speaker A: I hope that people at my grave will say she was always positive, she always made time for us and she cared so much about the industry and made a huge impact and that my resources will live on the books, the podcast, um, the content will live on beyond.

Speaker B: That's awesome. Well, as I said at the very start, like, I don't this. I've been getting used to having people who I've never met on the, on the show. Um, and it's still learning, still learning. But I've actually become really good friends with a lot of people that I never met before and then start chatting. And today was no different. Like, uh, your insights and, uh, I, I think it's sometimes tough because you obviously have your podcast and books and stuff. Sometimes you feel like everybody should know this already and then you meet people and you don't know this and you should know this. And maybe I need to lay this out a little bit better because, like, there's times when I do my episodes and I'm like, does anyone really give a rat's ass? And then I have someone message me I'm like, oh, wait a second. Yeah, there's people out there that are like, still trying to figure out all this stuff themselves. And I think it is always one of the things, right? Especially right now. It's a little bit doom and gloom philosophy industry. So everybody's like, I'm just focusing on my single unit and I'm like, but can you expand? Can you replicate? Can you do this again? And so I really appreciate your insights today. It was a fantastic episode.

Speaker A: Awesome. So much for having me. I appreciate it. Great to meet you.

Speaker B: Great to meet you. Thank you so much. And, uh, I'll let you know when this episode comes out.

Speaker A: Sounds great.

Speaker B: Thanks, Kristen. Bye. And we're all right. Post shifters. That's it for now. Keep your standards high, your spirits neat, and your team tied in your pork costs. Catch you next week on the Pro Shift podcast.