How Tobin Ellis Designs Bars That Make Bartenders Faster and Guests Happier

Speaker A: Foreign. What is happening? Postures. Welcome back to another episode of the Posture Podcast. Of course, me host, Sean Sule. Um, today's episode is all about bars line. I don't think I've had. Now I've had an Squires Ferguson talking about interior design a couple of months ago, a month and a half ago now. Um, but today we've got Tobin Ellis talking about his brand new book, Bar Design Essentials. It is really fantastic. It's coming out March 11, so it comes out brand about next next week sometime if you're watching the live stream on, or two days ago if you're listening to the podcast, depending on your time rift that you're currently in. Um, but Tobin, I actually did a bar design, uh, seminar at tails in 2015, I believe was the last, last time that, uh, Toby and I got up on stage and we talked about bar design. And it is phenomenal. Just when you start reading the book, um, how he lays out the why, which I really want to get into that because I don't think our industry talks about the why of bar design enough. It's more of like, that's the way we've always done it. Um, but I've blown enough smoke up Tobin's butt today to, uh, get him ready to go. So welcome to Urban. Thank you so much for your time, buddy.

Speaker B: You got it, man.

Speaker A: It's good to see you. Uh, because I do. We did, uh, the last time you were on the podcast was 2019. It was when I was in Vegas and I came out, I came out to your house and we did an episode while you're in your house and you were talking about the early days when you started doing bar consultancy and you did a job in Tibet and like, did some crazy design work and we sort of got really into it. But for everybody who's listening for the first time, um, what's your origin story? How'd you get in the industry and get to the stage that we're at now?

Speaker B: Yeah, I just started behind the wood at 19. Um, college dives, clubs, catering, and then some high end stuff, fine dining. Just working like every kind of joint for. But I was about 20 years, um, and about 10 years in, people started asking me to do their menus and train bartenders. So I started this, I guess it was a consulting company. It was just a freelance thing. Um, not many people understood what I did at the time. Now, of course there's, you know, everyone knows what a bar consultant is, but. Yeah, and, uh, that's it, man. I just Went behind the wood and just always thought about like, how can this be better? How can we make this more fun, faster, smoother, healthier, Just all that stuff.

Speaker A: So let's, like I said in the intro, like, your big section of the book is why we do better bot design. And now we, we as consultants, we can push the. Okay, well, you're going to make more money if you're more efficient. But like, you really break down to exactly like the why, like you were saying about health. Because I'm 6 foot 6 and I think in that seminar we did tails. Excuse me. I actually showed one of the bars I designed for me as a 6 foot 5, 6 foot 6 bartender. And I said like, literally, you couldn't work behind the bar if you're shorter than this. Um, but talk, talk us through like the, the big section of the book, which is like the why are we doing better bar design?

Speaker B: Well, I mean, you know, you're like, so you're what's called a P99. You're percent 99th percentile male. So you're the tallest range that we have. And normally you design for P10 to P90. The people in the extremes, like, you kind of get left out. And I know you've dealt with that your whole career. Um, but so have the people on the other end of the spectrum. I mean, you know, my, my partner, she's a, she's a badass. She's been bartending 20 years and she's five foot four. So she's like a P20 female. And she. Look, man, I walk into bars all over the world and I wait till there's uh, a. Typically it's a female and they're, you know, five foot, five foot two and I just wait. Then I'm like, where's your step ladder? And they always laugh and they go around the corner and they pull it out and show it to me. You know, they're like, look, you know, I'm like, yep, there it is. Um, and for you, you know, it's the bending down and it just, um, it's, it's such an important part of being a career bartender that you don't care about, know about, or think about until it's kind of too late. You know, until you become a little bit crusty and you know, salty dog in your, in your 40s or 50s and you're in your 20s, you're, you're invincible. You're unbreakable, like you don't care. So, um, I was at a bar, uh, in Florida recently. Doing some work. And there's two bartenders behind this custom design bar. It was very beautiful design, 20 something, like barely 20. I think he said he was 21, 22 and someone who was clearly in his, you know, post 40. And I asked the, the 20 something what he thought about the, you know, working back there. He says, um, I don't know, it's great, it's fine, it's great, no problems. Meanwhile, I'm watching his spine and he's like this almost the entire time and reaching forward, his neutral envelope is shot. It's really bad on his neck, his spine, his whole body. But he doesn't notice the 40 year old. The next night I'm there and I asked him the same question. He's like, this bar design is terrible. I'm like, you don't even bartend behind your double rails. He's like, no, I can't reach the counter. I move over to the sink and, and do it from there. And you know, he's like, my knees. And I'm like, I hear you brother. So, um, you know, I think it's like our job as the, the uh, the elder states people to um, just try to help the, the Padawans and the, you know, the young Jedi to, to just have a better experience than we had. It's, it's, it's on us. So to make them not have to go through what we went through, that's all.

Speaker A: So when it comes to talking to operators, because I think the hardest thing is that we've been around long enough. So obviously you work with Perlec and you have your systems as well, which are amazing bar setup. Um, we've been there from the old, like off the, off the shelf style bar systems that like the old guys used to do crown and McRown's even stepped it up now, but like the old system. So, so as an owner you'd be like, I'm just going to order two of these from my guy who I also get glassware and plate wear and cutlery from. And away we go. And so, um, um, how have you taken that transition now? Because we do have some really great systems that you can buy off the shelf. How do you push that towards like custom systems for different bars?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's not that hard anymore. Um, it's really, I think it was unheard of about 10 years ago, really just pockets, mostly custom stuff. And now it's kind of, ah. Everyone's aware of, you know, ergonomics and they're aware of that bar stations should be designed for the people who use them. And everyone's kind of started copying each other a bit, trying to, um. Which is good for the industry because now it kind of, it's slowly improving. It's not like it's light speed, but at least now that's part of the conversation, right? Like, well, what's this like to work behind? You know, how's it gonna do on my shins and my thighs and you know, where's all my meese? And you know, how is it when I reach for the counter and the scupper and that. That's all part of the conversation now. And that was not part of the conversation. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I got blank stares, crickets yelled at, you know, in design meetings. Because I'm like, wait, how does that impact the bartender? And I mean, people just blatantly not caring and saying, what the. But this isn't about that. I'm like, well, actually it kind of is, you know, uh, because the bar shouldn't be designed for the needs and the whims of people who spend 40 hours thinking about it. It should be the people that are standing behind them, making them work for 40 hours a week for 10, 20 years, et cetera. That's what's changing. And I think people are realizing that labor pool is getting way harder. It's harder to find good people and it's really hard to attract them and keep them. And bartenders are getting choosier and they should. And it's like, why, why would I do this to my body? Why would I run laps back and forth? Why would I constantly shuffle left and right to make a drink when I can have something that's built around my body and it's healthier? And I'm gonna, I'm not gonna go home and ice my back and ice my feet and have a chiropractor on, um, speed dial and all that.

Speaker A: Anybody who's 20 right now is gonna be like, just listening to this going, those guys are broken,

Speaker B: man. I got lateral epicondylitis. My girlfriend's got carpal tunnel. You play this back in 20 years, see how that 20 year old body's holding up? It's, It's a brutal job. It is. Bartending is hard. It's the first line of the book. Bartending is hard. Design should make it better, period.

Speaker A: So when you get brought in to consult on bars, like I think we're talking about in the green room, and, uh, there's like the, the infamous circle Bar, which you were like, I still love a good circle bar and they're very pretty and they are very fun to look at, but like to design them. I've designed like circle bars and like semicircle bars and they're just so much wasted space or everything's so crammed in. How do you, when you have a, uh, when you get brought in for consultancy, what are the sort of like non negotiables you roll in with when an owner's like, I want to build a bar, I want it to look like this because aesthetic. We were just mentioning aesthet form of function of form over function is definitely a big thing in our industry. How do you sort of play that with the, the, the owner or the people who are hiring you in to design their bar to sort of go, these are the non negotiables you need

Speaker B: to do well, Excuse me, I don't think it's, um. Yeah, it's not really about non negotiables. It's more about identifying constraints and asking questions early. I think one of the things I share with, um, developers, architects and operators is before you fall in love with the shape, let's talk about the business and the human implications of that shape and volume and location in the room, you know, because that can make or break the whole business. And you put a bar in the wrong corner and the whole staff has to fight upstream through the crowd. There's no service pathways and that all goes to hell. Um, you make a bar too small to fit the equipment it needs to drive the P and L, the pro forma, you're never going to make it back. So it's just about having, um, business conversations early on in the early phases of design, the programming phases and the schematic design phases about what are the business goals. Because there's always a business person on those calls. It's never just early like that. It's never just all design people. There's somebody who's an operator and their ears perk up like, wait, what? It's like, well, if you build that circle bar, the cost is going to double or triple for the fabrication, the millwork, everything. You have a lot of way to your point, a lot of wasted spaces putting squares and triangles inside of a circle and it'll take longer to build, it'll be harder to service. But I get it because I do love sitting at a circle bar and I don't mind working them if I've got someone, you, uh, know both flanks that can, can cover my back and I'VE got their back, but when you're by yourself, I mean, you know, vertigo central there. It's. They're tough to work. They're tough, but it's just, uh, it's having someone like a bartender, a very good, experienced bartender who's been around the block and. Or a specialist bar designer, not a food service consultant, which they should be in the project, but they shouldn't be doing the bars. They're the food service consultant. Some of them, uh, actually are pretty good at bar design. But a lot of them admit to me privately, like, hey, we're. Kitchens are what we do. You know, we. We can. We can lay out a bar, but we don't know what you know. And I'm like, well, that's all I'm trying to do is I wrote a book to help every bartender out there have an opportunity to be invited to those meetings and have a seat at the table to say those things and ask those questions. Well, wait a minute. Like, you put the gate over here, but the backhouse doors on the other side of the room. So every time we have to leave the bar, we got to go through the crowd. Why don't you just put the gate on the other side of the bar? That's not something that's going to occur to many people in design. Build some. It will, but, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah, it is funny. Like, I've done the same thing with food service designers, and they. They're amazing. But I'm like, you very rarely go into a new project where the kitchen gets constraints on size. Like, it's like, oh, the chef needs that much room. Okay, the chef's gonna get that much room. And then we'll figure out. Yeah, we'll figure out where we put the bar later on. Like, oh, we'll put the bar over in this corner because it seems to work over there.

Speaker B: It's the afterthought, right? The afterthought effect. The bar is a square or this circle or whatever in the corner, and we'll figure it out, and we'll jump some equipment back there, and a GC and a contractor know how to build walls and counters. They'll figure that out. And. And then we get there, and, you know, what's that? That universal experience of every bartender at least once in their career, if not a dozen times, you get that new job, and then you open that door, you turn that corner, and you walk behind that. You walk behind the wood. And what does everybody say? Who designed this bar?

Speaker A: And.

Speaker B: And they might not say it as Politely as that. Right.

Speaker A: Uh, I've had a couple. I've had a couple of mine's early designs.

Speaker B: It's not trying to say that the design build professional shouldn't be involved in the design process. It'd be a train wreck without them. You know, put a. Put five bartenders in an empty pad with a bunch of concrete and rebar and some, you know, some gypsum and some, you know, stone and stainless steel and say, all right, build a bar. Like, yeah, there's a pocket full of them that could probably figure it out. But you need those design build professionals. The point of the whole book, I think, is how do we build bars that work for everyone, including the people who are designing and paying for them, but especially for the people who have to make them work so that the guests can enjoy them, so the business can be healthy? That's. That's it.

Speaker A: Yeah, you go into like, uh, like theatrical factories and, and really it is just sort of pointing everything into making that profit and loss statement as healthy as possible at the end of the day, because that's. Sometimes there's little pieces like a spider web. So you've got the health of your staff, because I think we're finally starting to understand the health of our staff. We've got efficiencies on how quickly can we get our drinks and make drinks and so fast.

Speaker B: I am.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly, exactly. The drinks made. Here we go. Um, but when you do sit down, like, how, how is that. Because usually these systems are more expensive than traditional systems. Like, as we're saying, you go only up front.

Speaker B: Only up front, yes.

Speaker A: And that's what I'm sort of saying, like bar supplies. Dot com. Bar supplies. I can order three different styles of wells. Boom, boom, boom. They'll get. Be delivered in seven days. How do you broach that with, uh, management. When it comes to like, okay, here is my quote. This is how much everything's going to cost when it sometimes is because it is a sticker shock. And I always find, again, bar design is like, okay, we've got to pinch pennies on bar design. Kitchens, not so much the lighting fixtures. Yeah, that cushion that I'm going to put on the, on the banket. Hell yeah, I'm gonna spend 100 bucks on that.

Speaker B: Exactly. This is. So these are the other. This is to help, you know, people having these conversations. The conversation, the business design conversation that comes out of that is. Oh, okay. You want to. It's called value engineering. You want to value engineer down the bar package. Um, great. Let's talk about a few things. So you want to take 40,000 or 60,000 out of the bar package. So which station do you want to kill? Or how many seats do you want to give up? Because you can't put 50 seats in one station. Nobody will get a drink, no one will be happy. The business will crumble, and you'll go out of business. So what part of the P and L do you want to damage the most? Which one are you comfortable hurting? And then they kind of laugh and I'm like, well, I mean, you didn't. Why aren't we ve' ing this $75,000 robota in the kitchen? You don't need a robota to make a steak. They're beautiful, they're great. Chefs love them. But so what? You know why we're using those Knoll Barcelona chairs? Those are 7,500 a pop. You got 30 of them. You can get the same chair that will last just as long for 1500. There's 6500 times 20. Right. So actually, I think we should increase the bar package. But those are some of those conversations. But, um, I'm probably fortunate that you know now 20. I don't even remember 20 some years into bar design. I don't get those clients really. Um, not very often. I don't take those projects. If someone's trying to figure out how they can nickel and dime a design project from the operational point of view, from the most profitable department in the restaurant, hotel, resort, etc. Uh, in terms of food and beverage, I. That's not, I don't want to play that game because it's not, it's not the right thing for them. That's not going to help them. Saving money up front. You're paying for it every single day for the next 20 years. You're, you're leaving money on the table. You're, you're upsetting guests who are waiting longer for drinks. You're not getting the best talent. Um, it's so bad for the business. It's not. It shouldn't be that complicated. You know, like, hey, I want a really beautiful car, but I don't care what's in the engine. Just put anything in there. Was that that movie with the, uh, what was it called? The Trivare. Like, it was this rip off Lamborghini that, like, never worked. You know, that's not the game here. The game is build an engine. The engine drives the business. The bar is the engine that drives the whole business. You know, nobody orders double. You know, Second rounds of tomahawk steaks or most people don't, you know, um, there's just so much profit, there's so much guest experience that happens in the bar environment. The beverage is such a key part of the business health. Why would you even consider shortcutting that?

Speaker A: So, so you've got a lot of bars, uh, about a dozen bars or so in the back of the book that uh, you're talking about um, their design. And again it goes back to that circle. There it is. Echo and rig in Las Vegas. This, the, the circle bar. Echo Rig in Las Vegas. How, how did you broach these guys? Are ah, these all your design? Design?

Speaker B: The case studies are all. Yeah, those are all projects of mine that just of uh, studio bar magics that um, I just thought showed different important things. You know, I think for bartenders especially, but architects too, and designers, to see some of the detail of what it. Like you read the book, you kind of understand the theories. And then I didn't want to make it all abstraction. Right. Like, so here's how all these principles are applied. You know, the COVID of the book, I mean if you like, people are going to blow by it. But if you go back to it after you've read it, you look at it closely. Like just about every theory that's in that book is on that cover design. And that's kind of part of it is like I want it to be a practical tool, a resource that anyone from an architect, interior designer, bartender, beverage director, investor, developer, absolutely everyone, chefs who are going to build a bar, they can go through it. And there's, you know, 56 different sections, like topics, two pages like, uh, we're going to do some custom scuppers. How do we do that? There it is. Bam. Drawing diagrams, the whys, the hows, the watch out fors. And I think that um, that is an important part of the discussion is okay, like we can talk around the subject, but when we get into the nitty gritty of this, what, what has to happen? Where do things need to line up? Because a bar is unlike almost anything else built in the hotel, including the kitchen. Because it's really what it is, what a bar really is. It's a complex floor system with a complex wall system with a complex counter system supporting complex equipment that all has to wired through MEPs and properly operate at scale, at speed and then disappear so nobody notices while the guest has a beautiful experience. Yeah, you know, we're not on the bar going, hey, we're at fire those drinks for Table, you know, it's not a kitchen. Everything's got to be smooth, it's got a flow. The way we move affects the way the room moves. And so like, uh, the standard for beauty for me for a bar, it's not what. A bar isn't beautiful because of what it looks like when it's empty. It's how it feels when it moves, when it's full. That's the standard of beauty. I think we need to look a little more at as an, as a collection of industries.

Speaker A: Yeah, you've got a whole section on the back bar design, which I think is great. Hilarious. Because I've been guilty of doing those like high bottle stuff. And then you have that, that five foot four bartender, like, where's your step ladder? And grabbing a step ladder so they can get to the top shelf. And there's a picture of one of your friends like doing that, which is just one scary and sketchy, but also two so bad. Such a bad look when someone's.

Speaker B: Yeah, she, she. I got her permission to use that photo of her. I was like, is that all right?

Speaker A: One leg up on the well? And then like, it blew my mind.

Speaker B: I mean, I'd seen it, but I was in, I was in New York, I was in Manhattan, and I was at visiting her at this bar and I was like, oh, can I have a margarita with, you know, Siete Leguist or whatever? And she's like, sure. And she just like, like gymnastic monkey spider climb. She like, it's like Captain America. She's like off the front bar to the back and then she's climbing up and I'm like, oh my God. No, the well's fine. The well's fine.

Speaker A: Well then someone falls middle of Friday night and you've just lost a bartender for the rest of your shift.

Speaker B: Bam. Um, OSHA workers comp liability insurance premiums. Now we're talking business. So why does it matter how the bar is designed? Because of many, many different financial and legal responsibilities that the people who are hyper focused on those subjects in terms of interior design do not understand because it's not their wheelhouse in operational design. You know, like so. So the answer always when this subject comes up of the tall back bar is. I just asked the question. Um, so the 72 inches to 80 inches is the top normal functional reach for a P5 to a P90. You know, after that they can't get up there. Um, so what are the top shelves for? Well, they're for bottles. I'm like, bottles that'll be used by the staff. Yes. How will they reach them? Well, we'll just put a ladder back there. A rolling ladder behind the bar. Yes. Have you done that before? Well, no, but we can do it. I'm like, well, I have, and I've been in many bars that have. And I know the bartenders who work behind them. And these are the advantages and disadvantages. Yes. It is physically possible now to reach those bottles. Yeah, those, those cute, antique, industrial chic wheels that are already rusted. They will not roll on that track. People will trip over it. You got to move the whole ladder. Everything's got to close to get the ladder passed. And do you really want one of your hourly employees climbing a ladder? Climbing a ladder to do their job every day? Like, are they a firefighter? Are they painting houses?

Speaker A: Like, I have a ladder. I have a ladder in the. I have a. I have a ladder in my bar. Uh, I'm going to say it's all top shelf. It's all top shelf stuff at the top. But I feel. I hear you. It's very romantic. It's.

Speaker B: It is romantic.

Speaker A: Now I'm second guessing how tall my shelves are.

Speaker B: We got to think about it. And then they go, well, we'll just put display bottles up there. I'm like, great merchandising, storytelling. I love it. Who's. How are we going to clean up?

Speaker A: Clean it.

Speaker B: Oh, we're back to the ladder. Like, you know, and it's just those conversations. It's trying to. It's trying to help the design build community. It's bringing in value for them. You know, when I meet with architects and designers and we have design specific meetings where the client's not on the call, there's no pushback on it. They're like, oh, my God, this is amazing. Tell me more. Like, yeah, those frozen drink machines you want to put on the back bar, they have 24 inches of exhaust and 8 inches of intake. They weigh 250 pounds full. They have to be filled from the top. They're like, oh, so we can't float them in the middle of a wall somewhere six feet up? I'm like, no. We have to talk about how these things actually are used and how they need to operate to make this engine move and operate the room.

Speaker A: So I'm, I'm seeing a bit of a trend on the flip side of all this of, like, bar centric places, bartender centric places opening up. And bartenders tend just to lean to, like, the craziest, most expensive setups. And I'll, uh, group Perleck and Perlec and Crowns go system now and then, of course, you got behind bars in Europe and stuff like that, and they see it because of the Instagramable nature of it, but there's no real reason. Like, when I've seen them do it, they're like, oh, I'm gonna go do this. I'm like, but why do you exactly want that system? Oh, well, you know, such and such bar on Instagram uses this system, so it must be great. Obviously you're dealing with bar centric places because every bartender eventually wants to open their own bar or become a real estate agent.

Speaker B: Um, those are your two choices.

Speaker A: Two choices. Um, how do you sort of talk them off the ledge? Because that's the thing. It's like, Instagram is very real. Social media is very real. And like, you see these places have these great. And you're like, well, they're the world's best. So I must have this, this system myself. How do you sort of balance that out and like, talk them back to like, understanding what they actually need versus just buying them? M. It's like going, I just want a million dollars. I'm going to buy the most expensive car I can possibly buy. Why are you buying that? You don't even have your license. Because I need to buy it. Because I just want a million dollars.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I, I don't think it's trying to talk them out of anything. It's trying. So I'm going to answer your question, but in typical fashion, we're going to go a little tangential to get there. We're going to have a little journey. I think the most relatable thing that's timeless and it's not about the current fads or trends in bar design are double speed rails. And every once in a while I run into a bartender. Because I interview every bar I design. I interview the bartenders. If I can't interview a bartender, I either don't take the job or, um, I fight it very hard. Because, look, it doesn't matter how long I bartender or how many bars I've designed. I don't work there. I don't know how that bar needs to operate if it's, if it's a renovation. Right. They know exactly what they need and what they don't.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I want to talk to them. They make the design. I just. They make it work. I just turn it into a construction document and help people figure out how to buy it and install it and use it. And make it healthier, because that's not their expertise. But every once in a while, I meet a bartender who says, no, I gotta have. I had a call last week, and it wasn't a bartender. Someone said, oh, there's no. There's no double drink bar rails on there. Um, so put those in, please. And I was like, okay, well, what's the reason you want double drink rails? Double speed rails? Well, because we need more bottles. I'm like, so the need is that you need more bottles close to the bartender? Correct. Great. That's covered. Your previous design had eight bottles, which is not sufficient for any bar in North America. Anywhere, really, except tiny little cocktail bars. Not even that, really. Uh, the new design has 25. Is that sufficient? Oh, yeah. And now the bartender is 4 to 8 inches closer to the counter. So instead of being hyperextended and C5, C6. And that spine, right? They're back in neutral. Spine neutral, reach, envelope. They're in a comfortable, natural human pouring position. It's good on their body. They're faster, they're happier, they're healthier, and they're not. They're not shuffling back and forth, which there's a lot of that new designs these days. Shuffle over here to get the ice, shuffle over here to get the glasses, shuffle back here to make the drink. Um, we're trying to eliminate that. Those are the conversations I have. It doesn't necessarily inform any brand. I do a lot of custom work. Um, the Perlick relationship, which I'm super grateful for, because it scaled this subject, at least in North America, and put it up on a stage, and now everyone listens to it, and all the other companies are trying to copy it or trying to do their version of something that has ergonomics. Today's drinks, you know, healthier, fast. Well, not faster, but they're doing healthier. They're doing a lot of prettier, which is cool. Um, but I do a lot of custom work. You know, it's great. Now I can help all bartenders. You can go to, you know, your food service dealer, equipment designer, whoever you have, and you can get the. My signature, you know, collection by Perlick. And you can just have that. You don't ever have to talk to me. It's a solution out there for everyone or for the people that want to. They can engage studio bar magic. And we have. I mean, we have conversation about human factors designs. We talk about limb length, and we talk about beverage program and what's the flow behind the bar. And so it's not ever like don't get this or get that or get that. It's. What are you trying to accomplish back here? Because there are bars that have six seats and they make, you know, there's 20 people in the room and they've got two bartenders back there and they don't need to be fast and they want it to be very aesthetic and pretty. And there is a lot of the Me too. There's a lot of um, the you know, hey, I want to be on that top 50 list or I want to get that Tails award. And those bars all have this.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Certain look, I mean, look, it's not new. Right. 20 years ago that ice machine came out, I'm not gonna name it. And everybody had to have that machine until they had one. And they had to spend half their time in the bar fixing it. And then it wasn't that important. Right. So those things happen and they're normal and they're good for our industry. It's great that there are now one, two, three, there's three or four systems out there designed by bartenders. And, and mine was not the first, but uh, it probably was one of the seminal designs that made everybody stop and go, whoa, what is going on? What?

Speaker A: This is different.

Speaker B: What are we doing? Um, so I, I think it's, I'm not, I'm never going to um, discourage or disparage bartender design station. I'm just going to ask questions. Well, you want this station or this kind of design? Why?

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And that's the design process, that's the programming process and the schematic design process. You ask a lot of questions to get better informed, to better inform the designs, to figure out the constraints to design solutions that solve the problems and remove the pain points.

Speaker A: So what do you, where do you see bar design going? Because obviously you've been deep in it for like the last decade and a bit as we said like 2015, we did that, that bar design seminar at Tails. And I bet if we went back and looked at as that slideshow we're like, oh man, we were even archaic then looking back at it. Um, and I'll speak for myself on that one. But um, where do you see bar design going? What are some of the trends and things that you want to see like sort of moved on from like everyday bar design? And what do you really want to see adapted? Because we've talked about like that, that health, uh, element for bartenders, a speed element. That's the thing. What do you really want to make as like the benchmark for what bar design is for the next 10 years.

Speaker B: It I would like to see it focused more on the job. And the job we're called bartenders. It is our job to tend to the bar that means the counter. So I think right now there's an excitement over aesthetics that was never present, which is great. It's making everything more important. Because when, when now that designers and architects care about what the equipment looks like and so do operators and bartenders, then they're prioritizing it more, which means they're going to put more resources towards it, have better conversations about it and the outcomes will be better for all of us. So that's great. I think we're getting understandably a little distracted from some of the aesthetics, but so be it. Like I do some custom stuff that's very pretty and very expensive and that's what the guest or the gotta, uh, keep all my terms straight. I have customers, guests and clients. Anyway, it keeps the clients happy. Uh, but I'd like to see more conversation about not just being ergonomic and healthy for the bartender on how they produce the drink, but not forgetting that they have to lift that drink up and serve it over the counter to a guest. And that is being kind of swept under the carpet in exchange for a prettier, um, more chef like looking station. Which is one style. It's one approach. It's not wrong. It's just, um. I would like every conversation about bar design to be about the human form, human factors design, the true ergonomics, not as a marketing word, but talking about, um, biomechanics, how bartenders move their, their health and wellness in terms of repetitive stress injuries and make sure that we're doing right by the younger generation so that 10, 20 years from now they're not dealing with those same problems. That's probably the biggest thing. I don't think we have to help people with the bells and whistles and the neat features because that feature creepy is always going to happen and that's where innovation comes from.

Speaker A: So we haven't really talked about. So you go, you go.

Speaker B: No, I was going to say like. So when I. So the first stations, I tried to MacGyver to make them better for, you know, the craft movement. I start. I took ice cream freezers and I turned them into little ice freezers, you know, as best I could, but the lids were kind of in the way. And then I, you know, I put ice cream dipper wells in stations for tool caddies.

Speaker A: So good and Then.

Speaker B: But the minute I did that, the first time I ever did it, and I went back there because, remember, one of the weird things about my design path, which is very unusual, I worked behind every bar I designed for the first more than a decade. M. I didn't just go, oh, good luck, I hope it works out. I was back there going, ah. And one of those, uh, was the little round ice cream dipper. Well, that we call a tool caddy. What happens when you put a Hawthorne strainer and a spoon in that same space? You know, a Hawthorne's, a slinky, that thing, it just like they get caught up and tied up and you can't be fast. So that's when. That's where innovation comes from, though. You put an extra feature and then it doesn't quite work out. And then you realize, oh, well, that informs this. And then you iterate the design. And now I make, you know, segmented variable depth tool caddies that are true mise en place, like a chef would do for a knife block or a knife board or the roll up.

Speaker A: So we haven't talked about technology too much. How is technology playing into. Because we're going away from like, big, bulky, ugly ass POS because you do design these beautiful back bars, and you're like, oh, now I got to put a 1980s TV screen behind the bar for the POS, and that's just ruining my aesthetic. But now we're moving into, obviously, like, tablets and. And much smaller operations. How is, uh, the evolution of technology behind the bar helping your bar design sort of evolve as well?

Speaker B: It's in the book. Uh, I find myself saying that all the time now. And I'm like, ah, uh, I sound terrible, but it really is. There's the whole back towards the end. There's a whole chapter on it. It's a few things. Right. So top three, One, yes. POS is changing at light speed. We're getting rid of the. The Tandy TS 80 or whatever and move it down to tablets and even handhelds like the rest of the world. Yeah, Screens are disappearing. Um, cash drawers. I mean, 5% maybe. You know, places like New York City, you have to have a cash drawer. It's a requirement. A lot of places don't do a lot of cashless design. So now that's a pretty big, standardized piece of equipment behind a bar. And there's even a theory that a lot of food service designers use. They design by pos. So the conversation they have early on a stadium is, well, how many POs do you want and what happens is that gets translated and if you say five, then I need five 18 to 24 inch pieces of undercounter equipment that can hold and properly warehouse the, the cables for a traditional CAT register. Stadiums, ah, aren't doing that anymore. They're doing counter mounted swivel tablets, they're doing handhelds. So you have to keep up with that, uh, in your designs because that's great. Because now that's more space for actual production and service and not ringing drinks. Um, that's one, two. I think the question that comes up all the time and I talked about a lot in the book is well, what about AI? Like will AI start designing bars? I don't know. Have you worked with AI yet? Like I know it's gonna get there, but like I asked, I use about five different AI on a daily basis and I spend half that time, you know, with that. Very eager to please, very knowledgeable, very confused helper. Uh, like um, I stop sometimes and I go, hey, what time is it right now? And they're off by like 17 minutes. And I'm like, did you guess at that? Yes. I inferred from our last convert. Why would you guess at the time? You have every watch in the world. So, um, the AI conversation is interesting. There's not a lot of help there in bar design because it's such a complex system of variables that when you come across a problem, like we're renovating a bar that was on a 4 inch plinth and now we want to add this type of equipment, but health inspector can't see the visible drainage. And there are, you know, 352 health municipalities in 3,000, 3,152 health municipalities in North America. And they all have different rules on that. Like it's not just about aggregating the data and then spitting out this is what you should do. It's no. Every single one of the variables, you change one variable, you change all the other variables. And AI can't do that yet. Um, yet. So it's still a very human, it's centric, um, career and a discipline, um, and then the other thing people talk about a lot are the configurators, right? Like you go to buy a Porsche or maybe a, you can't do it with a 30 year old Honda like I had once, but you go to buy a nice car and you can sit there and you can go, oh, I want this and I want that and I want the super speed and ludicrous speed and all these things and then boom, you get this 3D and it's like, there's your car.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And they're doing that. Everyone's doing that in food service and it's been around for a long time and now they're doing it with bar design. And I think it's great because it gives some empowerment to the operators to have some say in exactly how things work. But it also can be a really dangerous tool because again, it's not a vacuum cleaner that you plug in.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It's a floor system with a wall system with an MEP and equipment system with a counter system with a ton of code and legality. And, um, those, those automations, those tools, their marketing tools, they can't do any of that properly at all. And so you think you've designed a bar and you order that and then it shows up. Back to your question of people that want to buy online. Um, we have a mutual friend who called me screaming because he, um, he did not take my advice and he had to shave some dollars and he bought online, you know, website that said delivers in six days. None of it does. It's all made to. It's all just in time. Manufacturing, it's six to eight to 10 weeks, whatever the lead time, plus all that

Speaker A: is six to eight weeks to build it. And then it will get you in six days.

Speaker B: It has to be shipped and then it has to. This. Trades have to be scheduled and it has to be properly installed and silicone and connected and anyway, inspected. These boxes, these giant multiple hundred pound boxes show up in the alleyway blocking the entrance to his very awesome famous cocktail bar. And he is not a happy camper. And I was like, oh, yeah, let me try to help you. We'll figure it out. And then I was kind of like when it cooled down a few days later, I was like, so, yeah, are you going to order online again? Never. Like, I'll never order online again. It's like it's not a toaster.

Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. Um, when we get offline, I need to hear who that was.

Speaker B: I don't ever, I'm never gonna never. Name a shame.

Speaker A: But, um, yeah, but, um, but guys, thank, uh, you so much for your time today. Uh, Tobin, just, we, we've got a few more questions to go, but I want to tie off like, get the bar design essentials. It is it, if you read it, is the book for bar design. Um, and I've known Tobin for a long time. We've obviously done podcasts together and stuff. There is Absolutely everything you need to know about bar design. And I still, even after designing a dozen bars and dozen or so more bars, um, I still have to go and search out information for certain things like your drive system, where your gas goes, stuff like that. And so do I.

Speaker B: We all do. That book doesn't have everything. Nobody has everything. And that's the lesson you learn, is you probably need at least six to eight bar designs, full actual construction projects that you are day to day involved with, just to kind of understand and stop making the basic mistakes. But everyone who does this for a living, and I know, of course most of those people now, they'll all tell you the truth, is that you're always learning and you're always making mistakes because it is such a complex system and an ever changing landscape. And it is so important to have the fundamentals, the essential information that we all agree on and that most people in operations understand to have better conversations about how to build more beautiful bars that perform better, that are healthier for the people that have to make a living back there. And so that the guest has a better experience and so does the P and L. That's. That's it.

Speaker A: So at the end of every podcast, uh, we do the 5D, five deep podcast questions. Every guest has these. Um, so is, what is one lesson or experience that shaped your perspective the most and how do you carry that forward in your life, personal or professional?

Speaker B: Uh, I worked for a company that I also won't name, but they're very near and dear to my heart. A hospitality group that was way ahead of their time. And one of the first things they taught me was bridge to a source. When you don't know something, bridge to a source. I use that every day. You don't guess. You get comfortable saying, I don't know, but I'll find out. I'll have the answer in an hour tomorrow. And that's how you learn, and that's how you prevent ego from creeping in. And that's how you get better, is never feel you need to fake it till you make it. I hate that trope. That is terrible. Don't, uh, fake it. Be honest. Be genuine and become good enough at enough things that you feel comfortable saying, well, that I don't know, but I can find out by tomorrow.

Speaker A: If you could leave one lasting message or piece of wisdom for the world, what would it be and why?

Speaker B: Oh, wow. I didn't know these were coming. I don't know that I have a lot. I don't know that I have that Kind of instant wisdom, but I guess, um, I think. I guess, I guess it's, um. I guess it's just remember, um, that everything that we do for work in the hospitality industry revolves around people, and that doesn't just mean the guest. Um, if everyone that was in all the industries that support the hospitality industry thought about the hourly employee as much as they did, the investors and the shareholders and the guest, what a world we'd build. And I would, um, I'd like to be. Continue to be a part of building that world.

Speaker A: Looking back on your journey, what is something you wish you'd understood earlier in life?

Speaker B: Um. Just because people ask you to be honest doesn't actually mean that that's what they want. They probably want you to confirm what they already. The belief they already want an expert to do that.

Speaker A: And from the bluntest guy in the hospitality industry, maybe I'm just. How do you define success? And has your definition of it changed over time?

Speaker B: Uh, I'll answer backwards. It never changed over time because I. Very weird. At the age of about 18, I realized I didn't want to work in a cubicle doing someone else's passion or their thing. I wanted to do something I loved. And two, I thought it was crazy that we spend our whole careers working ourselves into the ground just to retire and then enjoy ourselves when we kind of can't do the things we used to be able to do. I thought I would flip that. So, uh, for me, uh, success was, um, the only commodity that matters at all is time. Nothing else matters. And so to have the time, to have time with my family, my friends, the things I love about this beautiful and crazy world, were always the top priority. So it's never about how much money, it's how much time. How much time are you taking out of my life, and what's that worth to me? That's how I establish my value for what I charge for things. It has nothing to do with market value. There's no market value on my time. The value on my time is what I say it is. And if you don't agree with that, that's okay. Um, I just won't be helping you with that thing that you called me about. Um, someone else can help you that has a different value of time.

Speaker A: What do you hope your legacy will be and what steps are you taking to build it?

Speaker B: Oh, man. I mean, I think it's pretty. Well, kind of. I've been around a while. Uh, it's helping my tribe, it's helping bartenders to have Better lives to help the world celebrate and revelry better. Um, and more respect for the profession of bartending, the honorable profession, while also making, um, it more fun. Because our job is to make the party. You know, it's really important to always remember as a bartender, when people try to, oh, well, what else do you do? Or are you in college or, oh, you're a bartender. It's like, do you make 200 people's day every day? Do you make 100 people smile a day every day? I did. Um, that's a. That's a valuable thing to add into the world. We need that right now. The world needs some. Some release and some escape and some revelry and some joy and some connection, and that's what we do. And I, I think that's, I think, helping support that, helping the world's bartenders on that mission. If there's a legacy, that would be it, I guess.

Speaker A: Well, man, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Again, bar design, we had to flip this around because the bar design did get pushed a little bit. So we had to, like, play it to. To by year to when it was coming out. So March, uh, 11th. So in like, eight days. Uh, if you listen to the podcast, go and grab a copy.

Speaker B: Amazon. Amazon, March 11th on Amazon. You can also go to barmagic.com links right there, or you can follow me on Instagram at Tobin Ellis Design.

Speaker A: But, dude, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate that. And thank you, brother.

Speaker B: I appreciate it.

Speaker A: I'm not, I'm, um, not blowing smoke up your ass. The book is amazing. Like, the book is fantastic.

Speaker B: I mean, I Hope so after 18 years. 19. Thank you. I appreciate that very much.

Speaker A: I really think. Appreciate, man. Thank you so much for your time. Thanks a lot.

Speaker B: Go, fight, win.

Speaker A: Cheers, buddy. Bye.

Speaker B: Let it.

Speaker A: All right, post shifters. That's it for now. M. Keep your standards high, your spirits neat, and your team tighter than your pork costs. Catch you next week on the Post Shift podcast.